Zenman - you like to qoute the "scientist" and speak of neuropeptides and receptors. I am just a lowly 2nd year and I struggle with the large number of receptors and their functions/effects. Now granted I may be a dumba$$ or you have no idea what you are talking about and quote to try and prove your point???🙄
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ALBERTO???
now i am reassured...
Why are you knocking a man's name? It's Alberto Villoldo, Ph.D. who used to have his own lab at San Fran State University...Biological Self-Regulation Lab. And what have you done with your name? You can email him if you want more reassurance😀
There are lot's of studies...they just may not have the word "shaman" in them. I covered that in an earlier post.
"The result of this unfortunate situation is that advancement in Western knowledge is being limited by a truncated science whose Achilles heel is that it is partly founded upon an unproven belief: the belief that spirits, including souls, cannot exist. In actual fact, of course, science has never disproven the theory of the existence of spirits. And disproof of theory, or falsification, is a cornerstone of scientific method As long as the theory of the existence of spirits is not falsified, it cannot logically be ignored by science. In other words, the position of science on this matter is quite unscientific and, ironically, a matter of faith.
So far, however, no non-spiritual explanations of genuinely puzzling shamanic phenomena have proven as effective as the principle of the reality of spirits, which is not surprising, since it has been tested and supported cross-culturally in shamanic contexts for thousands of years. That the people who tested it were typically non-literate and did not wear white laboratory smocks does not make their experiments with their patients and clients, often in life and death situations, any less deserving of respect.
It is not my purpose here to attempt to persuade anyone of these views simply through words; that is, to cause the reader to have faith that I am right. Such ordinary reality persuasion is not the strategy of shamanism and shamanic learning. Shamanism is a path of knowledge, not of faith; and that knowledge cannot come from me or anyone else in this reality. To acquire that knowledge, including the knowledge of the reality of the spirits, it is necessary to step through the shaman's doorway and acquire empirical evidence.
The way is open, and the first step through it only requires, as it would for a true scientist, honest curiosity, an open mind, and some courage. Once you pass through the doorway, preconceptions are replaced by first-hand experience, and you can test for your- self the validity of the principle of the reality of spirits. One small warning, however, to those who are new to the practice: you and your view of reality will never be the same again, for passing through that doorway will be the beginning of a major paradigm shift, not only for you, but eventually for the parameters of science, and science will no longer be truncated by a major ethnocentric and cognicentric a priori assumption of what is impossible."
Michael Harner, Ph.D.
"Our research, thanks to a Canadian foundation, is investigating certain matters regarding shamanic journeying and drumming and health. My wife, Dr. Sandra Harner, is the director of the Shamanism and Health Project. Her research involves two major aspects, one of which is the effect of shamanic journeying and drumming on one measure of immune response and on emotions.
In connection with this work, she has gotten some hints that people with certain profiles of psychological descriptors respond much more effectively in terms of the immune response than others. This is a subject, obviously, of considerable interest. She has also found that there is a tremendous increase in the sense of well being as well as decreased mood disturbance and stress in people working with shamanic drumming and journeying. But to say more would be premature.
It's ironic that a system of healing that-other than using plants-is the oldest known system of healing in the world, should have no research going on in it at all, other than what we are able to do with our meager resources. I look forward to the day when the possibility of spiritual causality is not ruled out of research, so that science, in fact, can be completely scientific.
We also have what the medical profession would call "anecdotal" accounts. People often come to the shamans when everybody else has failed. We have cases in which, once people start getting shamanic treatments and laboratory tests are continued, the tests turn out negative, whereas they previously were positive. The assumption from the medical profession is usually that the previous diagnoses were incorrect, because there's been a reversal. That's fine with us. After all, it's virtually impossible, on a case-by-case basis, to prove causality. People wonder, How do you know this works? Well, you just practice it for your life and it develops a track record for you."
You can't "prove" anything. Point is one should rely half on the shaman and half on the doctor.😀
Eve Bruce, MD
Looking back on that night (she had been sick for days), I am struck with many questions. I am a physician, a surgeon with board certification in both general and plastic surgery. I had trained for many, many years to become a plastic surgeon-four years of medical school, five years of general surgery residency, two years of plastic surgery residency. I had no previous experience with non-allopathic healing techniques.
In half an hour with Alberto (another Alberto!), I was introduced to a whole new world-a new way of looking at health, at life, at healing. It in no way fit into the box of what I knew and had studied so long and hard to know. It in no way fit into my model of the body or of scientific method. I could not explain. And that night I let go of the need to explain.
Let it go baby
You can't "prove" anything. Point is one should rely half on the shaman and half on the doctor.😀
Eve Bruce, MD
"Looking back on that night (she had been sick for days), I am struck with many questions. I am a physician, a surgeon with board certification in both general and plastic surgery. I had trained for many, many years to become a plastic surgeon-four years of medical school, five years of general surgery residency, two years of plastic surgery residency. I had no previous experience with non-allopathic healing techniques.
In half an hour with Alberto (another Alberto!), I was introduced to a whole new world-a new way of looking at health, at life, at healing. It in no way fit into the box of what I knew and had studied so long and hard to know. It in no way fit into my model of the body or of scientific method. I could not explain. And that night I let go of the need to explain."
Let it go baby
My point - I do not think you have an original thought. EVERYTHING IS SOMEONE ELSES THOUGHTS AGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 😱
What we call medicine has been around for 400-500 years and look where it is at...we can cure/manage diseases. We are one the verge of molecular medicine and have advanced the understanding of science and the human condition. Sham-man medicine has been around for thousands of years (as you stated) and there is not one single body of evidence that supports your ridiculous claims that sham-man medicine heals (except for those with personality disorders or way too much cash to spend)
So in reality you are tired of being a nurse and with nowhere else to go - off to mystic healing. Good for you - but do not try and elevate that tripe as real medicine that actually cures cancer, manages diabetes and CHF. I have worked with several people just like you in my 20+ years in healthcare. One nurse rubbed oils on people to calm them and used aroma therapy for some mumbo-jumbo, another went off to be a chiropractor, acupuncture, homeopathy the list goes on. Just deal with the fact that you are not on the cutting edge of medicine and discovery (as you seem to think) because there is no legitimate research in that field and accept that you will have a marginalized role in healthcare - fleecing those that are stupid enough to give you money.
If there was a shred of reality in the practice of sham-man medicine it would be studied and funded. Instead it serves no legitimate purpose other that cultural story telling (which does not cure anything except boredom and insomnia)
If you could just admit that instead of quoting quacks with questionable credentials - I would have some respect for your position but you are either delusional or just tired of being a nurse.
I am tired of being a nurse and could not muster the energy for one more shift prior to my acceptance to medical school - but now enjoy working Saturdays because there is an end to this process and I learn so much each Saturday as I apply what learned to the process of patient care. Maybe I should bring a drum and drum that fractured leg into healthy bone (with the help of the river otter god)
I will now utter various words with quotes to add legitimacy to my post
"Newtonian physic is worthless – sham-man use quantum physics"
"Double blind studies are flawed and therefore disprove all western medicine"
"Sham-man have been curing nothing for thousands of years but it seems cool and hip to jump on the alternative medicine bandwagon"
"I can see auroras and peoples souls – why have I not been committed or forced to take anti-psychotics???"
"I hope to reach into someone's abdomen someday and pull out a chicken liver"
And that is one of my points..you don't even value what your peers think. Is that point clear now? A well known physicist who goes off and studies shamanism will have a much more valid appreciation of it than someone who just writes about it. A physician who actually experiences something that just doesn't happen in their frame of reference is now called a quack. Actually, they just have more knowledge than you.
You mean other than one of the longest running field trails in history! As I mentioned before...and which few have acknowledged is that the shaman's techniques have been studied for a long time,,,biofeedback, imagery, hynposis, etc, etc, and if PNI means anything to you in modern medicine...then you agree with me.
I've been a nurse for 32 years and not tired yet. Just like many who have been in the field for a long time...yes, we wonder what else there might be.
See above about all the research.
and again...
Respect the shaman...for he is more in touch with the healing forces than you are.😀
If said physicist could use science to explain how an aspect of alternative medicine works, and you could give us a peer-reviewed source on this, I'd be more willing to listen about what he has to say about it.
Seriously, until you can show us where any of this research has been published in a peer reviewed journal, its meaningless. Heresay and "I know this guy who was in constant pain but a shaman healed him" counts for nothing. If this stuff is as good as you say, then I'm sure you could find some kind of published study. Until you do so, no one is going to respect you.
The physicist Werner Heisenberg, back in the 20 or 30s said that sometimes you just have to howl with the wolves. Do you understand what he meant? Way back then he acknowledged the parallels between mysticism and even Indian philosophy and his work. So do Fritjof Capra who wrote of his meeting with other physicists and the relationship between their work and mysticism. Fred Alan Wolf also visited shamans and gave his explanation of what was happening. So, do we value the voices of experts? Do we value their voices only if it fits in our world? In earlier posts, I gave the experiences of other physicians and they are now suddenly quacks. So, to answer your questions, physicists have already explained the similarities between mysticism and science. Most of alternative medicine is based on the concept of energy and this concept (held by shamans thousands of years ago, is exactly the same that physicists hold today all matter is energy and vibration if you look deeply enough. But you wanted a peer-reviewed study didnt you?
You can find peer-reviewed studies on rituals, hypnosis, imagery, biofeedback, placebo, hyperstimulation/hypostimulation of different senses, altered states of consciousness, symbolism, meditation, PNI, neuroscience, transpersonal psychology, consciousness, neuropeptides, intentionality, etc. All have been studied extensively and all are a modern explanation of some of what shamans do then there are the things you cant explain and which require a paradigm shift.
But remember that the gold standard of research - the double-blind controlled study - is being questioned because the unquestioned authority of the detached and objective observer is now in question. Any questions?
In light of my above response, is posting only one research study all I really need for respect
Can you post a source for the idea that physicists have linked mysticism and science? That's all we want is a real, honest to goodness source on all this stuff you're spewing. NIH has an enourmous database of most medical research. Go searching and post what you find for us.
Now, I'll make this as clear as I possibly can... simply posting a few quotes by some guy is meaningless. Everytime you do that and fail to actually cite a research article, you lose what little credibility you have left. So, post a source or just stop.
Ok, so those have been studied... post links to those studies. Then, post links to the studies that link those things to what shaman do. Here, I'll give you an example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.proxy.m..._uids=16937354&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
Complementary and alternative medicine approaches to pain management. J. Clin. Psychol. 2006 Aug. 25
That being said, I really really want to know how shamen can effect neuropeptides.
Yes, show me the research that suggests the double-blind studies don't work and the rationale behind it.
you obviously don't understand what he meant. capra was accounting a conversation he had with heisenberg, when he lamented that it was difficult to obtain financial support from the mainstream scientific community for progressive research. heisenberg replied that "every now and then we just have to howl with the wolves", which is a german saying akin to "sometimes you need to run with the pack" (i.e. go along with the mainstream). heisenberg's and capra's referneces to eastern religion and mysticism primarily referred to the philosophy of interrelatedness and connectedness in the natural world when applied to particle physics and quantum mechanics. nowhere do these scientists posit abandoning the rigors of the scientific method.
in general, you misquote scientists and use their ideas out of context to pawn off your own rhetoric.
again, you have no idea of what you are talking about. the whole point if double-blinded placebo controled trials is to make it IRRELEVANT whether the observer is objective or biased, because the practitioner and patient is BLINDED!!!zenman said:
your blatherings are quite pathetic.
i think you have developed your own version of Heisenberg's famous theory.
we shall call it ZENMAN"S UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE, stating that it is not possible to simultaneously determine the position and direction of zenman's arguments.
i think you have developed your own version of Heisenberg's famous theory.
we shall call it ZENMAN"S UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE, stating that it is not possible to simultaneously determine the position and direction of zenman's arguments.
right on the money...lets see you quote your way out of this one z
So what you're saying is that if your professor (who should be an expert in something) says anything that is not backed up by a study, but that is based on years of experience and knowledge gained in his field, that you should not place any value on it? So, it Capra in his book explains his "opinion" on the connection between science and mysticism that he is a blubbering idiot? Hawkings has a lot of "opinions" also, but I guess we shouldn't take heed of anything he says.
You only wanted one, here's three:
Pert CB, Dreher, HE, Ruff, MR: the psychosomatic network: foundations of mind-body medicine 4(4): 30-41, 1998
Jonas, WB, Crawford, CC: The healing presence: can it be reliably measured? Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 10(5): 751-756, 2004
Fenwick, PB: Self-generation of seizures by an action of mind, Adv Neurol 75:87-92, 1998
Mind-body medicine...see Candace Pert...and others
I'll see if I can find you a study, but I don't think there is one as you can't measure "consciousness" yet...I have a lot of "opinions" from others who say it is a problem in research. If both patients and physicians know they are in a research study, you have a problem. A patient may hope he is getting the real thing...there's one problem...since your mind can control your body. A physician may "like" one patient in the study better than another...unconsciously...maybe the patient reminds him of his loving grandfather and will hope that this patient is also getting the real thing. See all the problems. Now, if no one even knew there was a study going on, it may be more valid.
You misunderstood...you do run with the pack and youre afraid to step outside the pack because youre trapped into rigid patterns of thought, belief, and action where anything outside that narrow world view scares the hell out of you. You have a vested interest in rejecting anything strange or that might smack of experiential because you must protect that little bit of knowledge you have or your foundation will crumple.
See above post about research.
How stupid am I...let's see:
1. I pay no taxes to Uncle Sam...not one penny
2. I get paid in USDs in an Asian country
3. I pay $600 a year for a car and all the oil, gas and maintenance it needs
4. I have a FREE 3 BR, 4 bath house
5. For $100USD, I have a cook that also cleans
6. For the same amount, I have a driver
7. I just went around the world
8. In Oct, I'll be in Bali...probably looking up some of their shamans, LOL!
9. I have no debts...not even a student loan
10. Some things you'll just have to wonder about!
Ok, now your turn regarding how "smart" you are
babble much?
OMFG, i haven't laughed so hard in ages (*shed a tear laughing*)!!!
ahem, let me reiterate...
The problem with Candace Pert and Dr. Michael Ruff is that they are simply attempting to fit new scientific knowledge [awkwardly] into a preexisting paradigm. Your quotation lacks...
1) A concrete explanation of what a chakra is
2) An understanding of how peptide T, neuronal plexuses, and nodal points of electrical and chemical activity work mechanistically to produce what is subjectively called a "chakra."
3) Evidence that chakras have a legitimate neurological basis.
It is poor methodology to believe a paradigm arbitrarily, to define it vaguely, and then to adapt the paradigm to fit new scientific knowledge without question. In fact, the methodology you are advocating is so bad that I wouldn't compliment it by calling it unscientific. It is worse than unscientific. It is not even hypothetico-deductive. That is, it doesn't consist of logical inferences based on evidence. It is simply arbitrary guesswork. It is no beter than astrology, radon water, or snake oil.
Let me give you an example of hypothetico-deductive reasoning:
A large number of patients present with acute unilateral upper limb flaccid paralysis and other neural deficits. On autopsy, some of these patients demonstrate thrombotic occlusion of the middle cerebral artery. Because the middle cerebral artery provides oxygen and nutrients to the part of the primary motor cortex that controls the upper limb, I conclude that there is a causal relationship. Additionally, because of previously documented success with antithrombotic agents, I propose that a pharmacologic antithrombotic agent such as coumadin could be effective in preventing a cardiovascular accident in those who are at risk.
____
Once I have my hypothesis, I can go ahead and test it by using the scientific method. My point is that you haven't even gone as far as developing hypotheses based on logic and reason. You are simply taking ideas which are emotionally appealing or intuitive and assuming that they are true. You are also subconsciously defining ideas such they are vague and hence resistant to attack.
That medical treatments are often proven ineffective and removed from common use is a poor criticism of the medical establishment. It shows that we are analytical, scrutinizing, and willing to change our views if the evidence dictates it. You, on the other hand, are arrogant, close minded, and unwilling to subject your ideas to our scrutiny.
For one, many doctors and scientists [erroenously] believe in spirits and souls. I do not believe in spiritual substance (which I define as non-material substance) because I am aware of no evidence in favor of its existence.
*side note: There is a general principle in philosophy that a specific claim is unlikely to be true unless there is positive evidence in its favor. For instance, I could posit the existence of an invisible purple dragon. You certainly cannot disprove the existence of this dragon, but you can still claim that he is very unlikely to exist if I cannot provide any supportive evidence.
I do not use faith as a methodology to determine my beliefs because I think that it is a very ineffective methodology which will likely yield false beliefs. I prefer logic and evidence.
WAHAHAHAHA!
Panda Bear, you sleigh me like none other.
I wish I could write with such clarity and wit.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The "I've been doing this for years" defense holds zero weight in court.
As for Hawking... that's why they're called theories.
I disagree with your argument.
For one, a theory is by definition supported by experimental evidence. Hawking's ideas which are not supported by experimental evidence are mere hypotheses. Zenman's ideas are even worse than hypothesis. I don't care how much bedside experience Capra had. What could he have possibly seen to warrant the hypothesis of chakras and other mystical nonsense? These are not hypotheses. They are wild conjectures motivated by an overactive imagination.
Despite all of this, I still concede that there is a possibility that I am mistaken, and I will give zenman a fair chance to support his ideas with evidence. However, I will never take anything on faith or otherwise believe something which is not supported by good evidence.
Note: Zenman has a penchant for using anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is invalid because it shifts the focus to a few select stories which may be misrepresentative or outright contrived.
I'd like to see Zenman put his money where his mouth is:
If you have an MI do you promise to use shaman treatment rather than aspirin/beta-blockers/revascularization?
If you develop diabetes, do you promise to use your chakra rather oral hypoglycemics/insulin (I beleive that's ayurveda not shamanism though)?
If you are ever in a motor vehicle accident and have a bunch of broken bones, do you promise use the the mind-body connection rather than orthopedic surgery to heal your bones?
Hell, why not take a bullet in your brain, heal the injury with shamanism and enlighten us ignorant egotistical people about the magical powers of the shaman? I'll beleive you then, no need to quote anectodes by people with terminal degrees.
If you have an MI do you promise to use shaman treatment rather than aspirin/beta-blockers/revascularization?
If you develop diabetes, do you promise to use your chakra rather oral hypoglycemics/insulin (I beleive that's ayurveda not shamanism though)?
If you are ever in a motor vehicle accident and have a bunch of broken bones, do you promise use the the mind-body connection rather than orthopedic surgery to heal your bones?
Hell, why not take a bullet in your brain, heal the injury with shamanism and enlighten us ignorant egotistical people about the magical powers of the shaman? I'll beleive you then, no need to quote anectodes by people with terminal degrees.
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1. I pay no taxes to Uncle Sam...not one penny
2. I get paid in USDs in an Asian country
3. I pay $600 a year for a car and all the oil, gas and maintenance it needs
4. I have a FREE 3 BR, 4 bath house
5. For $100USD, I have a cook that also cleans
6. For the same amount, I have a driver
7. I just went around the world
8. In Oct, I'll be in Bali...probably looking up some of their shamans, LOL!
9. I have no debts...not even a student loan
10. Some things you'll just have to wonder about!
Ok, now your turn regarding how "smart" you are
Um, yeah...but you're living in a third world Asian country. It's been a long time since I've been to the third world but, and I'm just free-associating here, I'd hardly call that a benefit.
My brother spends a lot of time in Africa (with the State Department) and one day he flat out told me that he likes Africa because while he may be just a regular guy in Arlington, in Botswana he's the Bwana Sahib and enjoys many of the perks once taken for granted by the third world's colonial masters.
For my part, I'd never vacation in the third world. Seems kind of obscene.
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Don't all these apply to that guy who claimed to have murdered JonBenet Ramsey?
Yes there is a problem fitting into the biophysical model because it does not consider the "whole human." Maybe it can best be summed up by William James...reductionism – "genius backed by prejudice." I have no problem with you doing research on anything...but, I'm saying keep in the back of your mind that you are working with humans and there are many variables that can't be controlled in a lab.
That said, do you need a lab experiment to convince you of something you know from your own experience? (Yes, I know some of you do!). The idea that no knowledge is scientific or valid unless it has been through rigorous controlled experiments is a "modern abrration, a radical misconception about scientific knowledge that may serve ideological prejudices(and managed care business practices) but clearly does not serve the pursuit of truth." Elio Frattaroli, MD
But, my views don't fit into your paradigm because I subscribe to the model that a mind is included with every human. It's just something I can't get away from!
You really don't know about the term "expert witness" do you?
So, you will laugh when your professor says anything along the lines of "based on my 20 years of experience with this type of patient, I think....? Or do you want him to always quote a study? I bet if he said "I had a gut feeling" you would feel you were born with genetic hiliarity!
Maybe a better term is anecdotal "experience."
Why do people take this stupid side road? Course I'd be at the local ER. I've had surgery before and even spent more time in an ARMY hospital than John Kerry...without getting a purple heart, LOL! It's called "complementary." Where Western medicine fails, others pick up the slack.
It's a benefit if you like adventure. True, there are things I miss, like going to the movies or my favorite eating joints...and a good internet connection that doesn't go down for as long as two days. But, it makes it mo better when you're back in the states...which now seems kind of boring.
No, he's just nutz! Or maybe smart to get a free ride home!
I believe I quoted Candace Pert on the chakra bit. I hear she's a "real scientist."
Well ok.
Snider M., Swenko: The physician burnout project, Sacramento, CA, El Dorado-Sacramento Medical Society, Jan. 1997. Study of 454 physicians…40% clinically depressed...most reported that they had thought about giving up at least once in the last year. Many would not advise their children to chose their same career path and they would not do so again.
"The impact of altered states of consciousness on health and healing has been documented from shamanic times to today's psychoneuroimmunology" Ken Wilber
Dreher H: Mind-body interventions for surgery: evidence and exigency, Adv Mind Body Med 14(3): 207-222, 1998
Barber, TX Changing "Unchangeable" Bodily Processes by (Hypnotic) Suggestions: A New Look at Hypnosis, Cognitions, Imaging and the Mind-Body Problem. Advances Spring 1984 (Collection of more than 50 studies)
Pert, CB: The wisdom of the receptor: neuropeptides, the emotions, and bodymind, Advances 3(3): 8-16, 1986
Pert, CB, Ruff MR, Weber RJ, Herkenham, M: Neuropeptides and their receptors: a psychosomatic network, J. Immunol 35(2): 820s-826s, 1985
I don't doubt the importantance of mental state in physical health. The literature teems with psychiatric comorbidities. However, I think that you are wrong to propose a non-material explanation for a phenomenon without evidence. Shamanism is not psychoneuroimmunology. Describing chakras and other ambiguous abstract ideas requires neither knowledge of psychiatry, neuroscience, or immunology. The true field of psychoneuroimmunology should build upon the knowledge base of these three fields. If the result happens to be similar to the ancient art of shamanism, so be it, but I see no evidence that it does. In fact, modern science reveals that spiritual explanations used to justify ancient medical practices like trepanation, food/water restriction, and bleeding are absurd.
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Morning Rounds. The Hour of the Jaguar. Location: A Steaming Jungle
Witch-intern 1: "This is Mr. Ngulubu, a 35 year old man with a history of demonic possesion who presented this morning to the sacred temple with a sudden onset of chest pain...
Witch Doctor: "Student-witch Kulapu, what is the differential for sudden onset of chest pain?
Student: "Uh...er....um...."
Witch Doctor: "Anybody?"
Witch Intern 2: "Fishing in the Otter God's sacred pool, speaking the name of Uputahutec the Bladder God...um...let's see...I know one has something to do with dreaming of the Evil One Who Must Remain Nameless or at least that's what I remember from that article you chiseled into this decade's JAZTEC."
Witch Intern 1 (under his breath): "Spear thrower."
Witch Doctor: "You forgot to mention Chakra decay. Good Morning Mr. Ngulubu...can you tell me which spells may be causing your pain? You wife isn't menstrual this week, is she?"
Mr. Ngulubu (clutching chest): "It hurts, it hurts really bad and I can't breathe."
Witch Doctor: "OK. Try to align your luminous energy while I consult my ancestors....oops, da bones say you've been cursed, probably by a neighbor..."
Witch Intern 1: "Doctor, he's turning blue and I don't think he's breathing!"
Witch Doctor: "Two milliliters otter sperm, Stat! That's right...rub it on his body while I light the sacred incense. I'd like to get control of his airway but it's a pretty strong curse and I don't want that **** coming back on me.
Witch Intern 2: "Mr. Ngubulu...you're totem animal...can you see it? What's it doing?."
Witch Intern 1: "It's probably flopping around and grabbing it's chest just like the patient.
Student (to himself): "Quetzalcoatl H. Cortez on crutch. I'm so glad I matched into necromancy."
Witch Intern 2: "I think the we're losing him to the Otter Demon!"
Witch Doctor: "Stand back...I'm going to hit him with my Devil Stick!"
Witch-intern 1: "This is Mr. Ngulubu, a 35 year old man with a history of demonic possesion who presented this morning to the sacred temple with a sudden onset of chest pain...
Witch Doctor: "Student-witch Kulapu, what is the differential for sudden onset of chest pain?
Student: "Uh...er....um...."
Witch Doctor: "Anybody?"
Witch Intern 2: "Fishing in the Otter God's sacred pool, speaking the name of Uputahutec the Bladder God...um...let's see...I know one has something to do with dreaming of the Evil One Who Must Remain Nameless or at least that's what I remember from that article you chiseled into this decade's JAZTEC."
Witch Intern 1 (under his breath): "Spear thrower."
Witch Doctor: "You forgot to mention Chakra decay. Good Morning Mr. Ngulubu...can you tell me which spells may be causing your pain? You wife isn't menstrual this week, is she?"
Mr. Ngulubu (clutching chest): "It hurts, it hurts really bad and I can't breathe."
Witch Doctor: "OK. Try to align your luminous energy while I consult my ancestors....oops, da bones say you've been cursed, probably by a neighbor..."
Witch Intern 1: "Doctor, he's turning blue and I don't think he's breathing!"
Witch Doctor: "Two milliliters otter sperm, Stat! That's right...rub it on his body while I light the sacred incense. I'd like to get control of his airway but it's a pretty strong curse and I don't want that **** coming back on me.
Witch Intern 2: "Mr. Ngubulu...you're totem animal...can you see it? What's it doing?."
Witch Intern 1: "It's probably flopping around and grabbing it's chest just like the patient.
Student (to himself): "Quetzalcoatl H. Cortez on crutch. I'm so glad I matched into necromancy."
Witch Intern 2: "I think the we're losing him to the Otter Demon!"
Witch Doctor: "Stand back...I'm going to hit him with my Devil Stick!"
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http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2006/09/06/1807273-ap.html
Witch doctors giving out sick leave in Zimbabwe
September 6, 2006
HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) - Tribal healers, often known as witch doctors, are to be permitted to give patients official sick days recognized by employers, the state media reported Wednesday.
Deputy Health Minister Edwin Maguti told a gathering of traditional healers and herbalists that only members of the 1,500-member state-approved Traditional Medical Practitioners Council would be allowed to grant sick leave of up to a week, the Herald newspaper, a government mouthpiece, reported.
As government health services crumble in the ailing economy, the move is seen as part of efforts to improve the collaboration of traditional healers in providing health care.
Maguti said medical doctors would also be encouraged to refer patients to traditional healers for additional treatments.
Witch doctors giving out sick leave in Zimbabwe
September 6, 2006
HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) - Tribal healers, often known as witch doctors, are to be permitted to give patients official sick days recognized by employers, the state media reported Wednesday.
Deputy Health Minister Edwin Maguti told a gathering of traditional healers and herbalists that only members of the 1,500-member state-approved Traditional Medical Practitioners Council would be allowed to grant sick leave of up to a week, the Herald newspaper, a government mouthpiece, reported.
As government health services crumble in the ailing economy, the move is seen as part of efforts to improve the collaboration of traditional healers in providing health care.
Maguti said medical doctors would also be encouraged to refer patients to traditional healers for additional treatments.
In regards to the tigers of the Sundarbans...who prefer to eat people:
The Forest Department requires all wood-cutting parties to be accompanied by a shaman whenever they enter the forest. Some faqirs, or shamans, are so powerful that they are thought to drive away crocodiles, tigers, and snakes and keep the people with them safe. Sometimes, this protection can last for months after a shaman has offered his prayers.
The Forest Department requires all wood-cutting parties to be accompanied by a shaman whenever they enter the forest. Some faqirs, or shamans, are so powerful that they are thought to drive away crocodiles, tigers, and snakes and keep the people with them safe. Sometimes, this protection can last for months after a shaman has offered his prayers.
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In regards to the tigers of the Sundarbans...who prefer to eat people:
The Forest Department requires all wood-cutting parties to be accompanied by a shaman whenever they enter the forest. Some faqirs, or shamans, are so powerful that they are thought to drive away crocodiles, tigers, and snakes and keep the people with them safe. Sometimes, this protection can last for months after a shaman has offered his prayers.
Dude...
Just when I thought I couldn't have less respect for your half-baked ideas or your couldn't sink any lower you hit the bottom and start digging.
No offense but I don't ask for respect from those who know less than me, LOL!
The info is from the Sustainable Development International Corp website
http://www.smartoffice.com/tiger/id17.htm
ROFLMAO. So? The fact that some NGO with a half-assed website is spreading fantasy gives it zero credibility.
Plus, I'll be certain that no charity I support, supports these loons in any way.
But hey, if you think a witch doctor can protect you from a tiger, lets conduct a little experiment: Lets send you out with a witch doctor and a porkchop tied around your neck, and I'll go out with a (say) Steyr Scout rifle in .308 and the porkchop...and we'll see who comes back.
I was just posting what's on the website for your enjoyment...jeez! Your rifle is no match for the Bengal tigar as you'll never see them coming...but other members of your party will see them dragging one of you off in the underbrush.
You're so full of ****, your hair must be brown. Think that nobody's ever killed a bengal tiger in the jungle with a rifle? Hell, I know someone that's done it with a lance. On foot, not on an elephant. And has the photos to prove it. I know others who have tigers heads stuffed and mounted on the walls of their game rooms (all with bullet holes, in the ventral aspect).
Go troll over at nurses.com or somewhere.
Course I only live here..... You can also kill a tiger in a fenced in compound in Texas if you want.
zenman
you have already proved you are a full fledge quack! let it go - find some witch doctor stuff to do as we wander off shaking our heads dismayed that someone could be so deluded by unscientific mumbo jumbo.
After you finish all your sham-man medicine your arguments will still be unconvincing. You should have stuck with the NP gig - maybe you could have provided some benefit to healthcare...oh well.
Good luck in the jungle - do let the bed spirits bite....
you have already proved you are a full fledge quack! let it go - find some witch doctor stuff to do as we wander off shaking our heads dismayed that someone could be so deluded by unscientific mumbo jumbo.
After you finish all your sham-man medicine your arguments will still be unconvincing. You should have stuck with the NP gig - maybe you could have provided some benefit to healthcare...oh well.
Good luck in the jungle - do let the bed spirits bite....
No but I would like an experiement when it comes only from your experience.
"He who quotes others lacks the ability to think for himself" ~some famous guy
you sound awefully familiar... a self-conscious, insecure person with a superficial affinity for asian culture...
I KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!
this is you...
bengal tigers, watch out!!!
You idiot...I'm from the Republic of Texas...who was in the ARMY (1970) three days after graduating from high school...and the holder of two black belts...and living in a country with daily riots. Do I sound insecure to you?
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You idiot...I'm from the Republic of Texas...who was in the ARMY (1970) three days after graduating from high school...and the holder of two black belts...and living in a country with daily riots. Do I sound insecure to you?
Are those real black belts or do you only have kung fu powers in the spirit world?
Do I sound insecure to you?
Given that your biography has you as a ~ 54 yo who spends his time defending his life decisions on a web forum frequented most often by those half his age...? Yes, you do sound insecure to me!
- H
You idiot...I'm from the Republic of Texas...who was in the ARMY (1970) three days after graduating from high school...and the holder of two black belts...and living in a country with daily riots. Do I sound insecure to you?
i stand corrected!!!
this is you...
