Does anyone wish they had gone DO?

[daelroy]

Yale surgery

Before you go on a firestorm, yes I noted it was prelim.

Carolinas surgery program

And yes, they do have a DO grad in the distant past. One. But no current ones.

There are others I know of that are more dramatic in terms of + foreign grads with no DOs but not every program lists their residents on their website and/or places their schools of graduation/degree.

Of course, in any given class particularly for a small program, you could have an IMG and no DO but like you correctly showed, there was a DO in a previous class so you haven't made your point. That's not an example of a program that takes IMG's and not DO's.


And pre-lim is not difficult to match in at all. And if you would like another example, check out the orthopedic surgery program at Maricopa hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. They have had 3 DO's in their program and no IMG's. I know this because I'm interested in ortho and I have seen programs like this that have no IMG's in their current or previous history but do have a few DO's but I haven't found the opposite to be true.

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[neutropenic]

I would like for you to list one.

I did with the RWJ example.
There are others I know of that do not list their residents.

Regardless, DOs rightly or wrongly face a lot of discrimination in many allo matches. IMGs also. The discrimination may not be equal in every instance but to deny its existence is to live in a world of rose colored glasses. So live in your rose colored world.

Last post.

 

[daelroy]

Don't believe the hype. That's all I will say. I'm about to interview for ortho spots and the IMG ortho aspirees tell me how they wish they could be DO's because they could apply to AOA programs. If these IMG's were DOs, they would have matched in an AOA ortho residency at the very least. I'm going to probably end up in ortho and these poor chaps will be settling on a preliminary surgical position somewhere. This is your life and career. Don't make a decision based on some weak account of how Joe Blow DO met an ignorant patient. It's not worth it trust me. Don't ruin your life for some college urban legend. You will be much better off as a DO. If you want a better chance at specializing, you shouldn't even think IMG. The people replying are just being defensive because they can't start over. It's not true that DO's and IMG's are viewed equally in a PD's eyes.

 

[daelroy]

I did with the RWJ example.
There are others I know of that do not list their residents.

Regardless, DOs rightly or wrongly face a lot of discrimination in many allo matches. IMGs also. The discrimination may not be equal in every instance but to deny its existence is to live in a world of rose colored glasses. So live in your rose colored world.

Last post.

Funny, a quick search on Google found their clinic has a DO orthopedic surgeon on staff. I guess they don't hate DO's that much.

http://www.rwjuh.edu/physicians/physician_profile.aspx?physicianid=2153

If you want to continue to argue with yourself feel free. I'm arguing that DO's are looked upon more favorably than IMG's. I never denied there was DO bias. That's not the point of this thread so your points are meaningless as far as this discussion is concerned. If you want to pretend that DO's and IMG's are viewed in the same light, feel free to live in your imaginary world. Any well traveled physician will tell you that DO's have an edge in terms of competitiveness over IMG's. If more DO's read this, far more would list far more examples than the ones I did in regards to programs that show overwhelming bias toward DO's versus IMG's. To be hones, I don't even know why this is a point of debate. I know plenty of IMG's in the real world who would acknowledge that DO's are preferred over IMG's.

 

[Shodddy18]

UMDNJ Robert Wood Johnson general surg

Yale surgery

Before you go on a firestorm, yes I noted it was prelim.

Carolinas surgery program

And yes, they do have a DO grad in the distant past. One. But no current ones.

There are others I know of that are more dramatic in terms of + foreign grads with no DOs but not every program lists their residents on their website and/or places their schools of graduation/degree.

So you know of them, but just cant post it?

 

[scpod]

Regardless, DOs rightly or wrongly face a lot of discrimination in many allo matches. IMGs also. The discrimination may not be equal in every instance but to deny its existence is to live in a world of rose colored glasses. So live in your rose colored world.

There are lots of opinions found on SDN, but the only way to "measure" the difference is to use the available quantitative data. The data available from NRMP is not opinion; it is fact. In the 2006 match, 67.9% of DOs matched; 50.6% of U.S. Foreign graduates matched. That would suggest that DOs have at least as good (if not better) a chance to get an MD residency. DOs are also the only ones who have a chance to get DO residencies. It makes absolutely no difference whether or not any particular program discriminates against DOs or FMGs because DOs have an overall better chance at getting a residency according to the statistics.

Someone once mentioned that the statistics don't include any pre-matches. That's true, but keep this in mind: 1) Very few pre-matches take place. 2) DOs also qualify for pre-matches.

 

[bulletproof]

but simply to answer the OPs question.....No , I have never regretted my decision to pursue an M.D. I think the DO is an excellent option, especially for those who are 100% assured that they will never travel beyond those countries where the D.O. is recognised.

BTW OP, it might be interesting if you had a poll on this.

Oh, and just as an aside...Daelroy, there are stereotypes propagated about DO schools and carib. schools alike. With respect to atttrition rates at Ross, and the "weeding out" that allegedly occurs, I spent 16 months on the island, and ( I have no reason to lie here), the only people who failed out were those who either
a. Had no interest in being there ( Mom/Dad were physicians and forced offspring into the medschool route)
b. Individuals who could not handle being independent of support systems established in the U.S and/or those with an inability/unwillingness to develop new meaningful relationships in a less than ideal physical environment.
c. Those who had not realised the massive amount of material they would be expected to digest and retain, and found themselves questioning their commitment to the field of medicine ( i.e. for one reason or another it seemed this was the first time they realised they had four years of med school and four plus years of residency ahead of them before they would even smell financial independence...these same individuals would probably have balked in any U.S. med school as well.)
d. Those with extenuating circumstances.....life happens. Trust me...I lost an immediate family member during the first year, and it was amazingly difficult to return to school and finish the semester. The school was very accomadating and arranged for emergency flights.....makeup exams etc.

However, noone that I know of can claim that they left Ross due to poor teaching, lack of tutoring programs ( I was a tutor for two semesters and my students all passed with great grades). Anyway that is my contribution to this thread. Good luck to all.

 

[pmtdenna]

but simply to answer the OPs question.....No , I have never regretted my decision to pursue an M.D. ...

I am very interested in your opinion. I applied to DO schools (late) and was not picked up for 06'. I have an interview coming up with Saba and will have to make some pretty quick choices. Two of the DO schools said that I simply applied too late. If I would just reapply, I would surely at least get an interview and most likely be accepted. So to get to my question. Do you think it would be worth it for me to wait another year (I'm 36) and reapply to DO school? Or, do you think I should go to Saba if it is offered to me and not look back?

 

[bulletproof]

I am very interested in your opinion. I applied to DO schools (late) and was not picked up for 06'. I have an interview coming up with Saba and will have to make some pretty quick choices. Two of the DO schools said that I simply applied too late. If I would just reapply, I would surely at least get an interview and most likely be accepted. So to get to my question. Do you think it would be worth it for me to wait another year (I'm 36) and reapply to DO school? Or, do you think I should go to Saba if it is offered to me and not look back?

Well this is just one guys opinion on an anonymous internet forum, so take it for what it is worth. If I were in your position I would definitely start researching the caribbean schools. My only issue with SABA is that as far as I know they are not approved by all fifty states. If this is not an issue for you I think it is a very good option. If you were younger I might also encourage you to wait the extra year given that you sound like a strong candidate for a DO school ( contingent upon whether or not you are one of those individuals who are afraid of the "carib. stigma"). However at 36 you have 8+ years of training ahead of you, and personally, if I were in your position I would really like to get started on it.
The most important thing you can do right now is gather as much info about all the schools as possible by searching the various internet forums including valuemd.
If you already know your field of interest and it happens to include rad. onc/ plastics/ derm then I would strongly advise you to wait the extra year for DO school.
So as you see there is no clear cut answer as such, but if I were in your position and I woud be happy in IM ( or one of its fellowships), FP, anesthesia, peds, psych, surgery, path, rads, then I would begin furiously researching and applying to carib schools. Only you know your situation and ultimately only you can decide what would serve your needs best. Good luck.

 

[cpep]

It's difficult to say i haven't had any regret about going to medical school. At stressful times, I've wondered what would have happened if I had pursued an MBA instead. During my rotations I've encountered hundreds of DO students. I can honestly say I do not regret pursuing an MD at Ross over going to a DO school.

Yes, it's harder to land an ortho. residency slot as an IMG vs. a DO. But residency is just a part of the equation, an important factor, but not the total picture. What happens after residency?? Does having your pts. respect matter? financial/personal rewards? Yes, going to a DO school has many advantages in the first 4 years of school and it will be easier to land a great residency but what about the rest of your life? daelroy says it best when he/she suggests 'it's your life and career". Very true but I'd rather be discriminated against for 4-8 years rather then 40+ years. It's a personal decision and I am very happy to have graduated from Ross.

I ve been to the DO threads and people always bring up the same stories, about how they know people who went to the carrib. for med school and those people now wish that they had gone DO instead. I know one person like this (hes at St. Mathews), but most of the other people I know are very happy with their decisions (Sgu and Ross).

Does anyone on this forum wish they had gone DO instead of carrib.? Any arguments for or against this? Any input would be appreciated, bc I am considering both. Thanks.

 

[neutropenic]

Very true but I'd rather be discriminated against for 4-8 years rather then 40+ years. It's a personal decision and I am very happy to have graduated from Ross.

I would hope after 40 years you'd established your own reputation whether you are in private practice, hospital practice, or academia. I doubt really very much you'd suffer this so-called "discrimination" 40 years out whether you went to Harvard, Howard, an "island school" or WUHS-COMP.

 

[scpod]

So to get to my question. Do you think it would be worth it for me to wait another year (I'm 36) and reapply to DO school? Or, do you think I should go to Saba if it is offered to me and not look back?

You're already 36...what's one more year. I didn't even start my prereqs until I was 38.

 

[billydoc]

I am very interested in your opinion. I applied to DO schools (late) and was not picked up for 06'. I have an interview coming up with Saba and will have to make some pretty quick choices. Two of the DO schools said that I simply applied too late. If I would just reapply, I would surely at least get an interview and most likely be accepted. So to get to my question. Do you think it would be worth it for me to wait another year (I'm 36) and reapply to DO school? Or, do you think I should go to Saba if it is offered to me and not look back?

Hey pmtdenna! I'm in the same boat as you, even the same age. Although I've already tried ROSS before, and ws admitted to SABA, but didn't go. I withdrew because of some health reasons back in 2004. I realized that island itself could be a huge issue as to how well(or not) you'll do at school. There is no question that having graduated from U.S school will make things a lot better and easier for you. But my dilemma is while I know I have pretty good shot at D.O, there is no guarantee that I'll get in on the first app cycle. And no doubt will loose my Carib acceptance. Being almost 36 (turning next month), and also having some health concerns I realize that sooner is better (for me). The problem is I'll have to live with "what if" I applied and got in to D.O. The flip side of that coin is not getting in U.S and saying what if I went Carib....probably would've been taking USMLE step1 by now(as it is in my case with ROSS).Most of my classmates from May'04 at ROSS are doing clinical rotations, or at least are done with step 1, and don't look back. I guess the bottom line is if you want something so damn competitive, you'll be a lot better off as U.S drad (MD or DO). But SABA is an excellent school, and had some very good matches in the past few years. If you can take 20 months being on the rock 5 x 5 sqare miles, with no real beaches, then go for it. Because tuition at SABA is still the best bang for a buck. I would've done it myself. But islands like SABA and Dominika are "diabetes friendly", and I'll have to stick with something more civilized and A LOT more expensive like Grand Cayman.

Good Luck on your decision

 

[pmtdenna]

Well this is just one guys opinion on an anonymous internet forum, so take it for what it is worth. If I were in your position I would definitely start researching the caribbean schools. My only issue with SABA is that as far as I know they are not approved by all fifty states. If this is not an issue for you I think it is a very good option. If you were younger I might also encourage you to wait the extra year given that you sound like a strong candidate for a DO school ( contingent upon whether or not you are one of those individuals who are afraid of the "carib. stigma"). However at 36 you have 8+ years of training ahead of you, and personally, if I were in your position I would really like to get started on it.
The most important thing you can do right now is gather as much info about all the schools as possible by searching the various internet forums including valuemd.
If you already know your field of interest and it happens to include rad. onc/ plastics/ derm then I would strongly advise you to wait the extra year for DO school.
So as you see there is no clear cut answer as such, but if I were in your position and I woud be happy in IM ( or one of its fellowships), FP, anesthesia, peds, psych, surgery, path, rads, then I would begin furiously researching and applying to carib schools. Only you know your situation and ultimately only you can decide what would serve your needs best. Good luck.

I appreciate the advice. I just wanted to hear from somebody that has already gone down the road I am considering. As far as residency goes, I'm not all that particular at this point. The stigma of being an IMG means nothing to me. I'm too old to care about something so trivial. By the way, what school did you go to and would you recommend it? Thanks for responding to my questions.

 

[pmtdenna]

Hey pmtdenna! I'm in the same boat as you, even the same age. Although I've already tried ROSS before, and ws admitted to SABA, but didn't go. I withdrew because of some health reasons back in 2004. I realized that island itself could be a huge issue as to how well(or not) you'll do at school. There is no question that having graduated from U.S school will make things a lot better and easier for you. But my dilemma is while I know I have pretty good shot at D.O, there is no guarantee that I'll get in on the first app cycle. And no doubt will loose my Carib acceptance. Being almost 36 (turning next month), and also having some health concerns I realize that sooner is better (for me). The problem is I'll have to live with "what if" I applied and got in to D.O. The flip side of that coin is not getting in U.S and saying what if I went Carib....probably would've been taking USMLE step1 by now(as it is in my case with ROSS).Most of my classmates from May'04 at ROSS are doing clinical rotations, or at least are done with step 1, and don't look back. I guess the bottom line is if you want something so damn competitive, you'll be a lot better off as U.S drad (MD or DO). But SABA is an excellent school, and had some very good matches in the past few years. If you can take 20 months being on the rock 5 x 5 sqare miles, with no real beaches, then go for it. Because tuition at SABA is still the best bang for a buck. I would've done it myself. But islands like SABA and Dominika are "diabetes friendly", and I'll have to stick with something more civilized and A LOT more expensive like Grand Cayman.

Good Luck on your decision

Sorry to hear that your diabetes is taking some options away. I'm lucky enough to not have any health problems, so I'm heavily leaning toward Saba. As far as the island itself, I was stationed on the DMZ in Korea for a year. Can't be any worse than the DMZ. Thanks for your input. Good luck with your applications.

 

[bulletproof]

I appreciate the advice. I just wanted to hear from somebody that has already gone down the road I am considering. As far as residency goes, I'm not all that particular at this point. The stigma of being an IMG means nothing to me. I'm too old to care about something so trivial. By the way, what school did you go to and would you recommend it? Thanks for responding to my questions.

I am a Ross student. I think the school is a good option. I also think SGU and AUC are good options. I would encourage you to go to their respective websites and gather as much info as possible. The main draws to Ross are the 4,500+ alumni, only 16 months in the caribbean, nice comfortable campus, strong teaching preparing you well for your boards (my opinion). the main drawbacks are 3rd world island, less than ideal livng conditions( rolling power outages), less support once you reach the clinical years.
In the end, I would recommend it to a prospective candidate, but I would advise them to go into the experience well-prepared to work and endure less than ideal living conditions, and with a positive mental attitude. Good luck to you.

 

[drusso]

I've been watching this debate unfold for almost 10 years. It's interesting that the evidence fails to accumulate into a clear answer. If this were about beta blockers and MI outcomes someone would just do a meta-analysis and that would be the end of it.

So, maybe somone will be inspired to do a long-term outcomes study on this topic. Find 1000 pre-meds and prospectively follow them forward in time. Compare US MD's US DO's, and US-FMG's on career satisfaction, life satisfaction, residency matches, licensure and board hassles, etc and just answer the blasted question!

I do think that it is interesting that when people ask or debate these questions they always focus on the outcome and not the process. Outcome is important, but process (like a whole decade of your life plus all the ramifications and opportunity costs of that decade) probably matter more. Rarely do I ever hear prospective DO applicants or Caribbean applicants ever frame their choices in terms of joining a social movement. Like many US MD schools, osteopathic schools come with a clear social agenda (ie primary care, rural medicine, holistic diagnosis and treatment, etc) as part of their mission that I think applicants would have strong opinions about. I'm not sure if caribbean schools have a social agenda or not, but I might imagine that if you attend a caribbean school you feel strongly about international medicine, third world health care, etc.

In any event, just a couple of random thoughts. You may return to your regularly scheduled pissing contest...

 

[CatsandCradles]

In any event, just a couple of random thoughts. You may return to your regularly scheduled pissing contest...

 

[NRAI2001]

By higher quality of life, are you talking about power shortages, postage failures and a lack of resources in general? I wouldn't equate casinos and strip clubs with higher quality of life.
.

Strip clubs and casinos? Really? You just convinced me to apply to AUC

 

[NRAI2001]

SOmeone suggested that I create a poll. How do i do that now?

 

[tucomnvms1]

show me wherE? i for a fact there is ONE Do resident in the ENTIRE MD neurosurg world (yrs 1 through 7)... one. for ALL of the Dos... one. you could just about go to any year at ross/sgu to find at least ONE that made ns...

Hey PLANNINGMD.. I was looking through your old posts and i found this.... It contradicts everything you have been saying.. And BTW, after failing out of medical school you have no chance..... Give it up.. Oh, and I think you have some serious problems...

Here you go, read and enjoy

planningMD
Member
50+ Posts


Join Date: Dec 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:


thanks. maybe we can talk more someday, id love to hear your story. and yes, both DO and MD education is the same. you can go where you want to with it. my previous school even had some plastic surgs and derm ppl who graduated from there to come in talk on different things. is it hard? yea, no matter where you go.

good luck to you.




--------CRazy huh?

 

[AngryBaby]

SGU/Ross/AUC grads don't wish to be associated with every other foreign medical school. Likewise, you have to be careful with how you characterize DO schools. I feel there is a difference in quality among upper tier DO schools and some of the lower tier schools. I will use AZCOM as an example because it's generally thought of as one of the better DO schools at this present time. AZCOM will publish it's latest match list in the coming weeks but I have heard it's amazng. Out of 135 graduates, supposedly 6 matched in orthopedic surgery (4 of those being allopathic matches). This doesn't include the other surgery matches. Our match list is on par if not better than some U.S. allopathic schools so I stress that it really depends on which DO school you are referring to. There are many DO schools like this but I didn't mention those schools because I only have firsthand information regarding AZCOM. I'm sure schools like MSU, OSU, Texas, CCOM, PCOM, NYCOM, COMP, Kirksville etc. offers similar match list success.

I'm only saying this because I can emphasize with many of you. If I had to choose between what is generally considered a lower tier DO school vs. sgu, ross or auc, I may have considered attending one of the three caribbean schools instead. So it does make a difference which DO school you are referring to when deciding between DO vs. SGU/Ross/AUC. Many of the top DO schools offer match lists that are very similar to some of the lower ranked U.S. allopathic schools.

That's an excellent point and very pertinent. The top 40-50% DO schools have solid reputations and little/no stimga from the vast majority of residency program directors. TCOM's entering stats for 2006, for example, were a 28 MCAT and 3.5 GPA...their residents have very good reputations (that is, on par with other MD residents).

 

[scpod]

That's an excellent point and very pertinent. The top 40-50% DO schools have solid reputations and little/no stimga from the vast majority of residency program directors. TCOM's entering stats for 2006, for example, were a 28 MCAT and 3.5 GPA...their residents have very good reputations (that is, on par with other MD residents).

There are no rankings, so I'm not sure how you intend to decide who is in the "top 40-50% DO schools". Nor can you talk about any kind of "stigma" from the majority of residency program directors unless you actually have interviewed them personally. In reality, it makes very little difference which DO school you came from. Every one of them has their top students getting into good programs. Their will always be individual program directors, however, who have biases. It makes sense to do some research on the programs before you waste your time applying. For example, the only allopathic EM residency in my home state typically takes one DO each year, and they come from all over. If there are no good candidates, they won't take one at all that year. But, they haven't taken an FMG in more than 20 years now. However, the surgery residency right down the hall (in the same hospital) took two FMGs this year, but hasn't taken a DO in many years. Two different directors = two different philosophies on who they want to take. Instead of worrying about what school you came from, it makes more sense to look at the records of each residency and talk to the residents and the directors. These people are human and they all have quirky little ways of deciding who they'll take and who they'll refuse.

 

[AngryBaby]

There are no rankings, so I'm not sure how you intend to decide who is in the "top 40-50% DO schools". Nor can you talk about any kind of "stigma" from the majority of residency program directors unless you actually have interviewed them personally. In reality, it makes very little difference which DO school you came from. Every one of them has their top students getting into good programs. Their will always be individual program directors, however, who have biases. It makes sense to do some research on the programs before you waste your time applying. For example, the only allopathic EM residency in my home state typically takes one DO each year, and they come from all over. If there are no good candidates, they won't take one at all that year. But, they haven't taken an FMG in more than 20 years now. However, the surgery residency right down the hall (in the same hospital) took two FMGs this year, but hasn't taken a DO in many years. Two different directors = two different philosophies on who they want to take. Instead of worrying about what school you came from, it makes more sense to look at the records of each residency and talk to the residents and the directors. These people are human and they all have quirky little ways of deciding who they'll take and who they'll refuse.

I completely agree that talking to the PG's is the best way to get that information, however getting through to them is not always possible, especially for pre-meds. Secondly, I should clarify that when I said "stigma" (or "stimga"...whatever) I meant that IMG's are usually selected after US DO's for residency spots, all else being equal. I think we can agree that info is accurate. Finally, I do have some inside info regarding a few PG's decision-making in this area, though only a few. I agree with your post, though, and you can get a good idea which DO schools have better general reps and better reps regarding specific specialties the same way one figures that info out for MD pgms...match-lists being the most important piece of info, obviously.

 

[lala83]

i heard that some states don't accept caribbean graduates from some schools...do any of you know which schools these are? and which states are not recognizing the degree?

also, i know that DOs only have a very selected number of spots for the more competitive specialties. i was wondering how these numbers compare to spots for FMGs. if you graduate from a caribbean school, are you competing against all MDs for all of the spots (and purely based on board scores)? or are there specific spots for FMGs?

 

[lala83]

i heard that some states don't accept caribbean graduates from some schools...do any of you know which schools these are? and which states are not recognizing the degree?

also, i know that DOs only have a very selected number of spots for the more competitive specialties. i was wondering how these numbers compare to spots for FMGs. if you graduate from a caribbean school, are you competing against all MDs for all of the spots (and purely based on board scores)? or are there specific spots for FMGs?

 

[NRAI2001]

i heard that some states don't accept caribbean graduates from some schools...do any of you know which schools these are? and which states are not recognizing the degree?

also, i know that DOs only have a very selected number of spots for the more competitive specialties. i was wondering how these numbers compare to spots for FMGs. if you graduate from a caribbean school, are you competing against all MDs for all of the spots (and purely based on board scores)? or are there specific spots for FMGs?

The 4 schools recognized by all 50 states are: SGU, ROSS, AUC, and Saba. The first 3 are known as the "Big 3" schools and are considered the better schools of the carribean.

DO do have their own residencies. There are a lot of anesth., ortho, radiology, ent..........available only to DOs. You might see maybe 1 or 2 total carribean students getting ortho or ent each year. I think there were about 250 spots for DO ortho and another number similar to that for DO anesth.

DOs have difficulty getting into those residencies in the allopathic field just as do carribean grads. I d say they (DO students) are probably very similar in their chances at getting a competitive residency as are students from SGU or Ross.

 

[ny skindoc]

, are you competing against all MDs for all of the spots (and purely based on board scores)? or are there specific spots for FMGs?

IMGs are competing against all applicants ..US grads,IMGs ..DOs when applying for residency.There is no such things as competing "purely on board scores" There are many variables which determine residency selection.Board scores are important but raely is the selection made on them alone.
The problem with being an IMG is that US grads will have a big advantage even with equal or lower board scoes.It will take alot for an IMG to even the playing field.