Does anyone wonder if adcoms think the whole pre-med process is as much BS as pre-meds think it is?

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Lucca said:
Do we think it's BS? I dont think it's BS...just requires a lot of footwork on the applicant's part to be well informed
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I don't think it's entirely B.S, but I think there are a lot of problems with it that can and should be addressed. I also think that adcoms should know by now that volunteer work isn't a good indication of altruism, nor is research experience a good indication of whether or not one will participate in research as a physician. I also think the current system does a lot to perpetuate educational inequalities. I've been reflecting on this a lot b/c I'm currently applying.
 
that kid said:
I don't think it's entirely B.S, but I think there are a lot of problems with it that can and should be addressed. I also think that adcoms should know by now that volunteer work isn't a good indication of altruism, nor is research experience a good indication of whether or not one will participate in research as a physician. I also think the current system does a lot to perpetuate educational inequalities. I've been reflecting on this a lot b/c I'm currently applying.
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Get ready to get owned by an adcom in 3...2...1...
 
bluemamba7 said:
Get ready to get owned by an adcom in 3...2...1...
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If an adcom wants to educate me, I'd be happy to hear what they have to say. To be fair, I do understand the value in having pre-meds do clinical, volunteer, and research work, because they will develop skills that will be useful as a physician and will, hopefully, gain empathy for their future patients. But to believe that every applicant that has such experience has a genuine interest in further pursuing said activities as a clinician and has not just checked a box for the application, I think indicates naivete. I also think that all the hoops pre-meds have to jump through imposes a very steep financial barrier to entry for students from low-income backgrounds and that if adcoms really want to have more diverse classes and increase representation in medicine from marginalized groups, then eliminating some of these barriers (like $100 secondaries, ahem) is necessary.
 
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that kid said:
I also think that all the hoops pre-meds have to jump through imposes a very steep financial barrier to entry for students from low-income backgrounds and that if adcoms really want to have more diverse classes and increase representation in medicine from marginalized groups, then eliminating some of these barriers (like $100 secondaries, ahem) is necessary.
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Not just low-income, also middle class. Try finding volunteer or shadowing opportunities near a rural/suburban campus when you don’t have a car (or perhaps even a license) and the bus ride (if available) is 1 hour+ each way... it can be hard to check those boxes even for the middle class, much less pay for the application process as you mentioned.
 
What's the alternative? Just use GPA and MCAT, since volunteering and research are just people going through the motions, and LoRs and personal statements all start sounding the same? I think everyone, premeds and adcoms, knows its not a perfect process. But I'd love to hear from either about better alternatives.
 
Mya&Me said:
Not just low-income, also middle class. Try finding volunteer or shadowing opportunities near a rural/suburban campus when you don’t have a car (or perhaps even a license) and the bus ride (if available) is 1 hour+ each way... it can be hard to check those boxes even for the middle class, much less pay for the application process as you mentioned.
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Yes! Thank you!
 
efle said:
What's the alternative? Just use GPA and MCAT, since volunteering and research are just people going through the motions, and LoRs and personal statements all start sounding the same? I think everyone, premeds and adcoms, knows its not a perfect process. But I'd love to hear from either about better alternatives.
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I think we can have certain requirements, but provide more accessible and structured opportunities for pre-meds to engage in them similar to how med schools establish clinical rotations for their students. We can also have the application process be free or on a sliding-scale based on the applicants' income. Third, we can eliminate the personal statement, but have a space in the application to explain extenuating circumstances. Oh! Also, skype interviews so that applicants don't have to spend thousands flying all over the country.
 
that kid said:
^Exactly what the title says.
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Sure, learning how to learn, to handle difficult concepts and large amounts of material, and manage your time is total BS. Ditto the knowing what you're getting into, what a doctor's day is like, b seeing if you really like sick people and displaying your altruism for a service profession.

We really should just admit people into med school right off the street. Especially mouth breathers.

We don't want you to be research scientists, we you to be able to think and assess data, good and
bad.

Find a different career. You'll be happier.
 
Goro said:
Sure, learning how to learn, to handle difficult concepts and large amounts of material, and manage your time is total BS. Ditto the knowing what you're getting into, what a doctor's day is like, b seeing if you really like sick people and displaying your altruism for a service profession.

We really should just admit people into med school right off the street. Especially mouth breathers.

We don't want you to be research scientists, we you to be able to think and assess data, good and
bad.

Find a different career. You'll be happier.
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Well see that's another problem lol. "displaying your altruism for a service profession" Every single pre med I know (and I know this can extend to a great MAJORITY of pre-meds) is doing volunteering for the sake of volunteering, doing certain things for the sake of putting it on a resume. Not shadowing to "see if they want to be a doctor" or volunteering to "be a good person". Unfortunately that's just not the way this process works lol. People going through this process would MUCH rather spend their time doing other things including studying for classes/MCAT or even just relaxing/doing fun stuff.

Take out a 'requirement' of volunteering for med school admissions and you'll see a substantial drop in pre-meds who continue to volunteer. This can extend to other things as well including research and shadowing.
 
I think Skype interviews are a bad idea. When you attend your first interview you will feel the same way for reasons too obvious to list.

I’ve been on the same laundry list of things I would change for ages:

1. Hard cap on number of schools one can apply to. End the arms race. 8-10 schools tops.
2. AMCAS should generate a preliminary WARS score for all applicants upon filling out the primary application and the MSAR should explicitly state how competitive a certain WARS score is for X school.
3. No pre-reqs. All schools move to competency system.
4. No CASPeR lmao miss me with that SJT garbage.
5. Texas style match system for the entire nation.
 
Lucca said:
I think Skype interviews are a bad idea. When you attend your first interview you will feel the same way for reasons too obvious to list.

I’ve been on the same laundry list of things I would change for ages:

1. Hard cap on number of schools one can apply to. End the arms race. 8-10 schools tops.
2. AMCAS should generate a preliminary WARS score for all applicants upon filling out the primary application and the MSAR should explicitly state how competitive a certain WARS score is for X school.
3. No pre-reqs. All schools move to competency system.
4. No CASPeR lmao miss me with that SJT garbage.
5. Texas style match system for the entire nation.
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I strongly agree with 1,2,4, and 5. I slightly disagree with 3. I think you do need to take basic foundational science courses to be ready for medical school.
 
that kid said:
I strongly agree with 1,2,4, and 5. I slightly disagree with 3. I think you do need to take basic foundational science courses to be ready for medical school.
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Nah. If you can ace the McAT, you can do med school. 75% of the pre reqs are a massive waste of time.
 
that kid said:
I think we can have certain requirements, but provide more accessible and structured opportunities for pre-meds to engage in them similar to how med schools establish clinical rotations for their students. We can also have the application process be free or on a sliding-scale based on the applicants' income. Third, we can eliminate the personal statement, but have a space in the application to explain extenuating circumstances. Oh! Also, skype interviews so that applicants don't have to spend thousands flying all over the country.
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1 - what do you mean? Like have a licensing body that reviews the EC opportunities around a campus and approve or deny the college the ability to have "pre-med" as a major, so that no premeds can be stuck in the middle of nowhere?

2 - isn't there a fee waiving program for low income students?

3 - if the PS is currently serving as a tool to weed out the occasional crazies and for most people doesn't affect whether they get an interview or not, what is the benefit of killing it off?

4 - I do agree that students demonstrating low income should be able to get travel reimbursement from the school.
 
Lucca said:
Nah. If you can ace the McAT, you can do med school. 75% of the pre reqs are a massive waste of time.
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I feel like the MCAT isn't comprehensive enough though. Like, I remember when I took it, there were maybe 2 or 3 ochem questions in the exam. Also it's possible for students to do well but have really lopsided scores.
 
Lucca said:
I think Skype interviews are a bad idea. When you attend your first interview you will feel the same way for reasons too obvious to list.

I’ve been on the same laundry list of things I would change for ages:

1. Hard cap on number of schools one can apply to. End the arms race. 8-10 schools tops.
2. AMCAS should generate a preliminary WARS score for all applicants upon filling out the primary application and the MSAR should explicitly state how competitive a certain WARS score is for X school.
3. No pre-reqs. All schools move to competency system.
4. No CASPeR lmao miss me with that SJT garbage.
5. Texas style match system for the entire nation.
Click to expand...
Don't you think 1 would just lead to a ton of highly qualified applicants not getting in anywhere because all they applied to was 8-9 top programs plus their state school? I'd wager the majority of current top ~20 students got rejected from many, if not most, of the peer schools they applied to. Some significant chunk of people would go from 1 or 2 fantastic options to no options at all, purely based on bad luck on which schools they did or didn't include.

And with 3, how does the standardized entrance exam work? Make it like an SAT, where it's more reasoning and interpretation and requires no background subject knowledge coming in?
 
that kid said:
I feel like the MCAT isn't comprehensive enough though. Like, I remember when I took it, there were maybe 2 or 3 ochem questions in the exam. Also it's possible for students to do well but have really lopsided scores.
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I’m of the opinion that one learns what one needs to succeed as a physician in med school. A foundation in science through mcat study is sufficient to be prepared. Undergraduate education should be pursued for its own sake and not subordinated to the needs of medical school. People will take things like Biochem and A&P to prep for the McAT regardless
 
efle said:
Don't you think 1 would just lead to a ton of highly qualified applicants not getting in anywhere because all they applied to was 8-9 top programs plus their state school? I'd wager the majority of current top ~20 students got rejected from many, if not most, of the peer schools they applied to. Some significant chunk of people would go from 1 or 2 fantastic options to no options at all, purely based on bad luck on which schools they did or didn't include.

And with 3, how does the standardized entrance exam work? Make it like an SAT, where it's more reasoning and interpretation and requires no background subject knowledge coming in?
Click to expand...

The idea of hard capping is that you can’t apply to only the top 10 unless you’re an idiot. You have to go in with a strategy for your school list. I think encouraging people to think harder about why they apply somewhere is a good thing.

The McAT stays the same. One can take courses related to the subjects on the test or not. I suspect most would. But it’s up to the individual. You wouldn’t need any prefers to matriculate
 
efle said:
Don't you think 1 would just lead to a ton of highly qualified applicants not getting in anywhere because all they applied to was 8-9 top programs plus their state school? I'd wager the majority of current top ~20 students got rejected from many, if not most, of the peer schools they applied to. Some significant chunk of people would go from 1 or 2 fantastic options to no options at all, purely based on bad luck on which schools they did or didn't include.

And with 3, how does the standardized entrance exam work? Make it like an SAT, where it's more reasoning and interpretation and requires no background subject knowledge coming in?
Click to expand...
I think the idea is that if everyone can only apply to 10 schools, the overall number of applications to a given school would decrease and the admit rate would go up.
 
that kid said:
I think the idea is that if everyone can only apply to 10 schools, the overall number of applications to a given school would decrease and the admit rate would go up.
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And that wouldn't lead to a nightmare litany of antitrust lawsuits against the AAMC or anything!

Also, there would still be the same number of applicants for the same number of spots, so the net effect is zero. The only way your math works is if a single student could simultaneously attend multiple schools under the current system.
 
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One other thing: we can't make anyone do research, volunteering, or even take the prerequisite courses. If every single premed in the nation banded together and said, "Know what? Screw volunteering!" we would have no choice but to take applicants who hadn't volunteered. If every premed simultaneously said, "We've had it with OChem," we would be forced to take applicants who hadn't had OChem. But sooner or later there would be one enterprising premed who said, "I bet I could get a leg up on the competition by volunteering at a soup kitchen." And then there would be a volunteering arms race exactly like there is today. And pretty quickly we'd be back to having more applicants with volunteering than we have seats...because that's market equilibrium, and that's how things work in a free economy.

Bottom line, we have our reasons for wanting applicants with these experiences. Y'all have your reasons for participating in these activities. Our reasons and yours may not be the same, but they both lead to the same outcome: get these experiences under your belt or watch someone else get the seat that could have been yours.
 
Valtun said:
Well see that's another problem lol. "displaying your altruism for a service profession" Every single pre med I know (and I know this can extend to a great MAJORITY of pre-meds) is doing volunteering for the sake of volunteering, doing certain things for the sake of putting it on a resume. Not shadowing to "see if they want to be a doctor" or volunteering to "be a good person". Unfortunately that's just not the way this process works lol. People going through this process would MUCH rather spend their time doing other things including studying for classes/MCAT or even just relaxing/doing fun stuff.

Take out a 'requirement' of volunteering for med school admissions and you'll see a substantial drop in pre-meds who continue to volunteer. This can extend to other things as well including research and shadowing.
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A) The most successful candidates, mean the ones we Adcoms actively jump up and down over at Adcom meetings for, are those who love what they do and do what they love. It just radiates off of them.
B) Our radar isn't perfect, but box checkers are rather easy to spot.
C) Of the three requirements, research is the one that is least in favor according to Adcom surveys. Naturally, its required for the Powerhouses.
D) We don't want professional students. Hence the shift to a requirement for the humanistic domains. There are requirements for med students residents as well. So let's put it this way. A career in Medicine requires you to be able to talk to people, in a nice, empathic way. You think that you can learn this in anatomy lab? Um, no.
E) Solipsism is a sin.

Let's put it another way. One's of SDN's best ever threads is this:
Things I hate to hear patients say:

Do you really want to be in a profession with patients like the ones described? If so, you need to get some exposure to them to prove it to yourself, and us. And we can guarantee that you WILL have patients like those.
 
If I was an ADCOM, I'd start a medical where everyone had a science masters/PhD (this is my opinion of an ideal med school, but I'm glad we have what we have too).

I feel they generally don't get enough love in the process, and are yet some of the most capable students.
 
Robin-jay said:
If I was an ADCOM, I'd start a medical where everyone had a science masters/PhD (this is my opinion of an ideal med school, but I'm glad we have what we have too).

I feel they generally don't get enough love in the process, and are yet some of the most capable students.
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We get it. You have a masters and are very smart.

😛
But seriously.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
We get it. You have a masters and are very smart.

😛
But seriously.
Click to expand...

Even considering the levels above me, could you imagine a class of 100 medical students who have earned a PhD in [hard] science? That would be a scary talented class.

You can still volunteer, show altruism, etc. all the same as any applicant.

It also doesn't have to de-value their goals as physicians because they can "do research". Top 10 schools often want great researchers, and they never say it "lowers physicians standards" in terms of helping patients.
 
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Robin-jay said:
Even considering the levels above me, could you imagine a class of 100 medical students who have earned a PhD in [hard] science? That would be a scary talented class.

You can still volunteer, show altruism, etc. all the same as any applicant.

It also doesn't have to de-value their goals as physicians because they can "do research". Top 10 schools often want great researchers, and they never say it "lowers physicians standards" in terms of helping patients.
Click to expand...

Also, how much would the PhD help? I mean, I’m sure it’s at least a sign that the students are intelligent and capable of excelling in med school, but if PhDs in the hard sciences are anything like mathematics, typically you really only know a lot about your small area of research.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Also, how much would the PhD help? I mean, I’m sure it’s at least a sign that the students are intelligent and capable of excelling in med school, but if PhDs in the hard sciences are anything like mathematics, typically you really only know a lot about your small area of research.
Click to expand...

PhD's show that the student can handle a rigorous schedule, do research competently, can think abstractly, can teach, has perseverance, resiliency in success, and a countless amount of tremendously useful values.

Either way, many people with a bachelors in english get accepted, and so on. I'd take my chances with the PhD engineering guy any day.
 
Robin-jay said:
Even considering the levels above me, could you imagine a class of 100 medical students who have earned a PhD in [hard] science? That would be a scary talented class.
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I have always found it interesting that, as a group, PhD's applying to medical school are not stronger candidates. I suppose it could be selection bias... theirs, not ours!
 
gyngyn said:
I have always found it interesting that, as a group, PhD's applying to medical school are not stronger candidates.
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Well, they certainly aren't generally interested in primary care which is where 9/10th of the demand is.
 
Lucca said:
I’ve been on the same laundry list of things I would change for ages:

1. Hard cap on number of schools one can apply to. End the arms race. 8-10 schools tops.
2. AMCAS should generate a preliminary WARS score for all applicants upon filling out the primary application and the MSAR should explicitly state how competitive a certain WARS score is for X school.
3. No pre-reqs. All schools move to competency system.
4. No CASPeR lmao miss me with that SJT garbage.
5. Texas style match system for the entire nation.
Click to expand...
To add to #5: with ability to update with new grades and recalculated GPAs through the application service and a better definition of what constitutes BCPM.

Ability to update ECs through the application service would be nice to see, too.
 
that kid said:
If an adcom wants to educate me, I'd be happy to hear what they have to say. To be fair, I do understand the value in having pre-meds do clinical, volunteer, and research work, because they will develop skills that will be useful as a physician and will, hopefully, gain empathy for their future patients. But to believe that every applicant that has such experience has a genuine interest in further pursuing said activities as a clinician and has not just checked a box for the application, I think indicates naivete.
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This is a straw man. We pick the people we like best based on all available information. Every acceptance is a risk, albeit a calculated one. Applicant X logs 100 hours/year with Habitat for Humanity, applicant Y logs 100 hours/month playing Fortnite. Who gets the seat? The one who is playing the right game.
 
Med Ed said:
This is a straw man. We pick the people we like best based on all available information. Every acceptance is a risk, albeit a calculated one. Applicant X logs 100 hours/year with Habitat for Humanity, applicant Y logs 100 hours/month playing Fortnite. Who gets the seat? The one who is playing the right game.
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Ah but applicant Z raises a million dollars for charity by live-streaming fortnite! Your move, adcoms.
 
Lucca said:
Ah but applicant Z raises a million dollars for charity by live-streaming fortnite! Your move, adcoms.
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Applicant X because I can find pasty-skinned heliophobes at any LAN center or radiology department in the world. Checkmate.
 
Here's a medical school admissions success story, the Craigslist Killer:
https://www.biography.com/people/philip-markoff-438836
If you have ever read any industrial psychology, you'll know that the med school admissions process is nonsense. The interviews and reviews of personal statements are invalid and lack reliability. Furthermore adcoms have no ability or even ambition to normalize transcripts to account for the differences in rigor among undergraduate schools and majors. They focus on hobbies and in the immortal words of LizzyM the candidates' "joie de vivre". Then they look at these vapid volunteering activities. There was a piece in the Onion a few years ago that captured it perfectly:
https://www.theonion.com/soup-kitchen-volunteers-hate-college-application-paddin-1819566808
Face it folks. This whole thing is just a ploy to keep people out of the medical profession and to keep pencil pushers employed.
 
Robin-jay said:
If I was an ADCOM, I'd start a medical where everyone had a science masters/PhD (this is my opinion of an ideal med school, but I'm glad we have what we have too).

I feel they generally don't get enough love in the process, and are yet some of the most capable students.
Click to expand...
We want people who will be good doctors, not merely good students.

Face it folks. This whole thing is just a ploy to keep people out of the medical profession and to keep pencil pushers employed.

ConspiracyWorld is that way->.

The rest of us Adcoms here on Planet earth merely want people whom we can trust to touch our moms. Not everybody merits being a doctor.

And that's Nobel Prize caliber logic there, blaming the Admissions system on a doctor who was a killer. Because lawyers never, ever become killers.

The MCAT helps us normalize applicants across the board. we alios have feeder schools that let us know the caliber of candidates.
 
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Obnoxious Dad said:
Here's a medical school admissions success story, the Craigslist Killer:
https://www.biography.com/people/philip-markoff-438836
If you have ever read any industrial psychology, you'll know that the med school admissions process is nonsense. The interviews and reviews of personal statements are invalid and lack reliability. Furthermore adcoms have no ability or even ambition to normalize transcripts to account for the differences in rigor among undergraduate schools and majors. They focus on hobbies and in the immortal words of LizzyM the candidates' "joie de vivre". Then they look at these vapid volunteering activities. There was a piece in the Onion a few years ago that captured it perfectly:
https://www.theonion.com/soup-kitchen-volunteers-hate-college-application-paddin-1819566808
Face it folks. This whole thing is just a ploy to keep people out of the medical profession and to keep pencil pushers employed.
Click to expand...
You seem bitter.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Also, how much would the PhD help? I mean, I’m sure it’s at least a sign that the students are intelligent and capable of excelling in med school, but if PhDs in the hard sciences are anything like mathematics, typically you really only know a lot about your small area of research.
Click to expand...

Robin-jay said:
PhD's show that the student can handle a rigorous schedule, do research competently, can think abstractly, can teach, has perseverance, resiliency in success, and a countless amount of tremendously useful values.
Click to expand...

A PhD doesn't really help, for all of the reasons mentioned. A PhD means that you know a lot about one specific field and are the de facto expert on one very small sliver of that field. For instance, I might be the expert on inorganic catalysis, but that doesn't really help in med school. It also doesn't help if you're the expert on T cell maturation. It'll help you on one section of one class.

PhDs also don't show that students can handle a rigorous schedule or that they can think abstractly or that they can teach. It does show they have resilience and persistence despite being treated like total crap though. PhD schedules are what you make of them. You can get a PhD with a 9-5 schedule if you wanted. It just takes judicious planning of your experiment schedule and not doing a PhD that requires you to do cell culture or handle animals that have to be maintained at a certain time. It also doesn't mean that you can think abstractly. A lot of PhDs nowadays get their projects from their advisers. They're basically the engines that do the work towards a pre-specified goal (specified by their advisers). It does train you to think to a certain extent but ability to think abstractly is not a pre-requisite for graduating with your PhD at all. I've seen too many people who can't think worth a nickel graduate with their PhDs. Finally, having a PhD doesn't mean that you can teach either. Most PhDs do have to at least TA courses but this can be as little as grading problem sets and exams. You don't even have to speak fluent English to TA a class, as many undergraduates can attest.
 
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