Does it make a difference if you went to a regular undergrad or a well-known one?

[masterMood]

state school, no debt.


i'm gonna have a bigger house and bigger car and be more successful than you private peepz earlier in life. That means i can be ridin' with my hoez and my G-crew and drive down the streets of LA screamin' who's you plastic daddy?

99.92392392 percent of us are gonna go into private medicine. Odds are you are one of them as well. Going to a "better" med. school isn't gonna improve your chances to those highly coveted and selective specialties that much especially when you're a small fish in a big pool.

I'm talkin' about going to a private school that isn't at the top of the list but it's name stands out (heh heh). Odds are you aren't gonna get into a top 10 med. school, and even if you get into one of those top 10 medical schools, you're gonna have to work even harder than ever before 'cuz you're now a tunicate and everyone else is a shark. Heck, I think its financially more lucrative to go to a state med. school because of the tuition, and be at the top of your class there rather than being at the middle of "George Bush Medical School." There are so many cardiothoracic surgeons, dermatologists, opthos, neurosurgeons, whateva that came from "low tier" medical schools, that there are probably more coming from these places than from the top places.

Finally, the last point i'd like to make is this. You ever notice how the people in the top 10 of the high school class are hardworking and smart, but they work harder than the average person? I found that after they work their asses off in high school to get into "prestigious university" that they tend to slack off a bit and enjoy the social aspects of college that they missed out in high school. So by the time they graduate and get into a grad school it's not gonna be the best and not the bottom but just at the level that a regular non-superhardworking person would be. So now they're at the same level as everyone else, and now they have to prove themselves again for grad. school.

Similarly, why should you work your ass off so hard in undergrad and miss out all the other aspects of college life, then when you finally make it into a top medical school, you want to blow off some steam and relax a little bit more, which could possibly translate as not getting into the coveted residency of your choice.

You guys know what i mean? It's a tradeoff between working hard and relaxing. I'm basically saving all my energy reserves for medical school where i can work superduper hard. And this is made easier by the fact that i go to a state school where it's not that hard to pull of As

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[solitude]

I agree with the first paragraph somewhat but don't know if I misunderstood what you meant by saying "coast through" at a top university. My understanding is the rigor of the program is tougher and being with people who are all academically at the top makes it much tougher there then it is to maintain a great GPA at a lower undergrad.

What I mean by "coasting through" a top university is that it is decently easy to get about a B average. Of course you still have to do some work, but it doesn't require a huge amount of effort to maintain a GPA that, coupled with your university's reputation, will be just enough to get into a medical school (usually mediocre or bad ones).

You are right that it is much tougher to maintain a great GPA (in my opinion). But I'm saying that if your goal is simply to get into a single medical school, and you aren't very picky, you can coast through with a B average, rely on your school's reputation, and you will probably still get in. I would argue that it is much easier to get a B average at a top undergrad than it would be to get the 3.5 or 3.6 that you might need from a less prestigious undergrad to get into the same med schools. So in that sense, unless you have your eyes set on the top med schools, going to the more prestigious school and coasting through is the way to go.

 

[gujuDoc]

What I mean by "coasting through" a top university is that it is decently easy to get about a B average. Of course you still have to do some work, but it doesn't require a huge amount of effort to maintain a GPA that, coupled with your university's reputation, will be just enough to get into a medical school (usually mediocre or bad ones).

You are right that it is much tougher to maintain a great GPA (in my opinion). But I'm saying that if your goal is simply to get into a single medical school, and you aren't very picky, you can coast through with a B average, rely on your school's reputation, and you will probably still get in. I would argue that it is much easier to get a B average at a top undergrad than it would be to get the 3.5 or 3.6 that you might need from a less prestigious undergrad to get into the same med schools. So in that sense, unless you have your eyes set on the top med schools, going to the more prestigious school and coasting through is the way to go.

Thanks for clarifying. Put this way, I agree.

 

[solitude]

I disagree with most of what you said.

First of all, you will not necessarily be in more debt if you go to a private school, because aid packages are generous. See my post above.

Going to a "better" med school will improve one's chances of getting a more selective residency. And it does make sense for those who want to do academic medicine. If, however, you plan to go into private practice with a non-selective residency, then I agree that a regular medical school is the way to go.

Simply because you go to a top medical school does not mean that you won't be at the top of the class there, as well. Somebody has to be at the top of the class, and it might as well be you. Or at least me.

You are also quite wrong on the kids from the top of the class underperforming. Most of them work extremely hard when they get to the prestigious university, it's just that that level of hard work simply isn't enough to be at the top of the class again, because the competition is so much more keen. But there are students at the top of the class even at prestigious universities. And they do not have to prove themselves again when it comes to grad school.

It's also fallible to assume that by working hard in undergrad, you won't work hard in med school or residency. This just simply isn't true for many people.

What it comes down to is this: there are some people that only have the stones to work hard at certain stages of the game. There are others that are at the top of their class in high school, go to a prestigious university where they excel, go to a top med school where they excel, etc. These people are most successful in life. If you want to realize your full potential, don't make excuses at every step along the way. Try your hardest and realize your potential. If you aren't willing to put in the effort at each step, admit that, but don't blame others for trying.

state school, no debt.


i'm gonna have a bigger house and bigger car and be more successful than you private peepz earlier in life. That means i can be ridin' with my hoez and my G-crew and drive down the streets of LA screamin' who's you plastic daddy?

99.92392392 percent of us are gonna go into private medicine. Odds are you are one of them as well. Going to a "better" med. school isn't gonna improve your chances to those highly coveted and selective specialties that much especially when you're a small fish in a big pool.

I'm talkin' about going to a private school that isn't at the top of the list but it's name stands out (heh heh). Odds are you aren't gonna get into a top 10 med. school, and even if you get into one of those top 10 medical schools, you're gonna have to work even harder than ever before 'cuz you're now a tunicate and everyone else is a shark. Heck, I think its financially more lucrative to go to a state med. school because of the tuition, and be at the top of your class there rather than being at the middle of "George Bush Medical School." There are so many cardiothoracic surgeons, dermatologists, opthos, neurosurgeons, whateva that came from "low tier" medical schools, that there are probably more coming from these places than from the top places.

Finally, the last point i'd like to make is this. You ever notice how the people in the top 10 of the high school class are hardworking and smart, but they work harder than the average person? I found that after they work their asses off in high school to get into "prestigious university" that they tend to slack off a bit and enjoy the social aspects of college that they missed out in high school. So by the time they graduate and get into a grad school it's not gonna be the best and not the bottom but just at the level that a regular non-superhardworking person would be. So now they're at the same level as everyone else, and now they have to prove themselves again for grad. school.

Similarly, why should you work your ass off so hard in undergrad and miss out all the other aspects of college life, then when you finally make it into a top medical school, you want to blow off some steam and relax a little bit more, which could possibly translate as not getting into the coveted residency of your choice.

You guys know what i mean? It's a tradeoff between working hard and relaxing. I'm basically saving all my energy reserves for medical school where i can work superduper hard. And this is made easier by the fact that i go to a state school where it's not that hard to pull of As

 

[45408]

There's also something to be said for the willingness to take on a challenge. You might be brilliant, but if you are, what are you doing at the U of Southern Utah? Money is obviously an issue, but most good schools offer sufficient financial aid that your undergrad debt will be pocket change compared to the debt you'll end up incurring in med school. To me, it boils down to this: if you're so smart, why don't you come play with the big boys? Adcoms likely see it the same way.

Not like anybody would pick a school based on staying near their family or wanting to save money, right? "Generous aid" only goes so far. My parents make too much for me to qualify for anything free, but they don't give it to me. I went to a school that's plenty easy to get into, but I can play in the big leagues.

 

[ruglazier]

Not like anybody would pick a school based on staying near their family or wanting to save money, right? "Generous aid" only goes so far. My parents make too much for me to qualify for anything free, but they don't give it to me. I went to a school that's plenty easy to get into, but I can play in the big leagues.

you can get into Ivy leage schools from the least prestigious 4 year school in Utah.

 

[63768]

for those of you arguing that a better "college" helps when it comes to med school or a better "med school" helps with residency, you're wrong. it may help a minute amount but not enough to make any appreciable difference. think about it. when you went to college, did anyone really care where you went to high school? for those who have graduated from college and have moved on to grad school/med school/law school, does anyone care where you went to college? no. not at all. maybe in introductions but all of that quickly fades away.

the only one that matters is the final institution you attended. for some, it is college, in which case, you'd want to go to the best one you can. for med students, it doesn't even matter where you went to med school. once you're in residency, no one cares where you went as long as you learned the things you need to learn.

i personally regret attending a tougher institution. if i could go back, i'd attend UT instead of rice, get a 3.8+ and already be in med school.

 

[gostudy]

I think the bottom line is that you have do well on your MCAT no matter where you go. Here is my favorite example. See page 2,3,4:

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2005Statistics.pdf

On average matriculating Princeton premeds have -0.1 difference in the two GPA categories compared to national matriculants. But if you look at page 3 you see that the matriculating Princetonians have a 3+ advantage in composite MCAT scores. Then when you look at page 4 you see that 90% of all Princeton premeds matriculate into medical schools compared to the national average of 50%. The key to the 90% matriculation is the great MCAT scores which in this case more than compensates for the drop in GPA. One could say that this 90% is due to the prestige of an Ivy ugrad, but I'd argue that the 90% is mostly due to the stellar MCAT scores.

 

[browniegirl86]

I entirely agree with your point that persistent health conditions and proximity to familiar doctors should take precedence over the rest of the discussion.

But I must interject to note that often the top undergrads are less expensive than state schools. These schools give generous aid packages to all but the upper middle-class and upper class. All of my friends from not-so-privileged were able to easily afford Duke because of the financial aid. The rest of the class comes from more privileged backgrounds and pay out of pocket. Money is a huge deal to people, but if you're poor, these top undergrads will help you out. If you have the money, but just don't want to spend it on education, that's simply a matter of misplaced priorities.

There are a few problems with what you just said:

1. My family is right in the middle of middle class. My parents make just enough for me not to qualify for need-based grants, but not enough to pay the ridiculous tuition at the "top undergrads." I also have a sister who is now in college. For the first three years I was in college, she was in high school, and the schools could care less about siblings unless they are actually enrolled in college. So, essentially, my parents knew they needed to save money for her education as well, but this wasn't reflected in any financial aid package I might have received. Plus, it's not MY money, it's MY PARENTS' money. So your whole "if you have the money, but just don't want to spend it on education, that's simply a matter of misplaced priorities" assertation is pretty damn pretentious. Things are never that simple.

2. I did get a generous scholarship at a pretty good private school, went there, hated it, and transferred to my state school. Surprise! The state school with no scholarship at all was still cheaper. Now I have no undergraduate debt, so my med school debt will be easier to pay off. And I'm attending a top 10 med school, so it all worked out.

As for the overall argument, I would also like to think that where you go to undergrad doesn't matter, but I'm pretty sure that it does. At all of my out-of-state interviews I was one of the few people who had gone to a public school that wasn't Berkeley. It kind of bothered me but also made me feel like a rockstar a little Still, I think there are just fewer people at my school who have the stats for the top schools, and there's definitely going to be a smaller acceptance rate when there are several thousand pre-meds applying at the same time. Not to sound whiny, but we have little to no hand-holding with pre-med advisors or professors, and our classes are strictly graded. I only know a few people from UT who aren't going to Texas schools (granted, there are about 49,500 people at UT who I don't know at all), but I also don't personally know any pre-meds who didn't get in somewhere. Obviously that's anecdotal, but when we're asking the question "does my undergraduate institution matter?" I think we should be more specific.

Does it matter where you went to undergrad if your goal is to get an MD? Probably not.

Does it matter where you went to undergrad if your goal is to ge an MD from a top 10 school? You bet your ass.

 

[SeventhSon]

UCSF and Hopkins have a blatant bias with respect to undergrad institution. When I went to UCSF, there were 3 out-of-state people. They were from (surprise!) Harvard, Harvard, and MIT. Do an Mdapps search and you will see people who got in EVERYWHERE get rejected by ucsf pre-secondary. Why? Because they went to a state school.

Elsewhere, it's give or take.

A very good (3.7-3.8) GPA at a top-notch school, all else being equal, will most likely be chosen over a better (3.8-4.0) GPA at a state school, because the adcom is much more familiar with your competition. Of course, it is always difficult to extricate that factor from everything else that is a part of your application.

 

[browniegirl86]

UCSF and Hopkins have a blatant bias with respect to undergrad institution. When I went to UCSF, there were 3 out-of-state people. They were from (surprise!) Harvard, Harvard, and MIT. Do an Mdapps search and you will see people who got in EVERYWHERE get rejected by ucsf pre-secondary. Why? Because they went to a state school.

Elsewhere, it's give or take.

A very good (3.7-3.8) GPA at a top-notch school, all else being equal, will most likely be chosen over a better (3.8-4.0) GPA at a state school, because the adcom is much more familiar with your competition. Of course, it is always difficult to extricate that factor from everything else that is a part of your application.

I'm not trying to justify UCSF's bias (believe me, I felt plenty out of place at my interview at first with all the Cali people and Ivy people), but the situation there is different from Hopkins, where it's just straight up bias.

UCSF is a state school, and only 20-30% of the class is from out of state. UCSF is also a top 5 school. So it makes sense that the out-of-state students are going to be really competitive, and as this whole thread has pointed out, one factor in competitiveness is apparently prestige of undergrad institution.

(anecdotally, I actually know one other girl from UT who is going to UCSF this fall . . . who knew?! At the second look there were plenty of Ivy people, but also a fair number of out-of-state, non-Ivy-leage kids as well)

 

[browniegirl86]

UCSF and Hopkins have a blatant bias with respect to undergrad institution. When I went to UCSF, there were 3 out-of-state people. They were from (surprise!) Harvard, Harvard, and MIT. Do an Mdapps search and you will see people who got in EVERYWHERE get rejected by ucsf pre-secondary. Why? Because they went to a state school.

Elsewhere, it's give or take.

A very good (3.7-3.8) GPA at a top-notch school, all else being equal, will most likely be chosen over a better (3.8-4.0) GPA at a state school, because the adcom is much more familiar with your competition. Of course, it is always difficult to extricate that factor from everything else that is a part of your application.

I'm not trying to justify UCSF's bias (believe me, I felt plenty out of place at my interview at first with all the Cali people and Ivy people), but the situation there is different from Hopkins, where it's just straight up bias.

UCSF is a state school, and only 20-30% of the class is from out of state. UCSF is also a top 5 school. So it makes sense that the out-of-state students are going to be really competitive, and as this whole thread has pointed out, one factor in competitiveness is prestige of undergrad institution.

(anecdotally, I actually know one other girl from UT who is going to UCSF this fall . . . who knew?! At the second look there were plenty of Ivy people, but also a fair number of out-of-state, non-Ivy-leage kids as well)

 

[SeventhSon]

UCSF is a state school, and only 20-30% of the class is from out of state. UCSF is also a top 5 school. So it makes sense that the out-of-state students are going to be really competitive, and as this whole thread has pointed out, one factor in competitiveness is apparently prestige of undergrad institution.

The reason it is such blatant bias is because the UCSF rejection is pre-secondary, so oos state-school people don't even get their entire application read, so they don't really get a fair chance against the ivy-league apps.

Not that I am complaining... I doubt I would have even been waitlisted if I wasn't an in-state

 

[DyersEve]

I don't think it makes that big a difference. A friend of mine is got into Wash U. St. Louis. She went to little known college in New Jersey. She got excellent grades, very high MCAT scores and she had great ECs.

Just focus on getting good grades, good ECs and good MCAT scores and you'll be fine.

 

[CaramelDlite]

A person on the Duke admissions board told me that they give schools a ranking based on academic rigor and that the perception of say the top ten most difficult/highly ranked schools gives them an approximate .5 point GPA boost. He then mentioned that his undergrad, a pretty highly ranked state school, was not on that list. Sounded kind of interesting to me, but who know how each school works.....

 

[MSTP?]

x

 

[MSTP?]

x

 

[SeventhSon]

I went to a top ivy and when I was in high school, I took physics at a local college. There is NO comparison between the course work. I made an A in that physics class (no generous curve, but I was top in my class) without breaking a sweat - they even asked me to TF. Now, if I took the same course at the Ivy, I'd be struggling for that B/B+. Mainly b/c the material typically covered at a state school or a normal school for the entire semesters, is only the first 1/3 of my Ivy's course. By the end of the semester, I was googling for help from state graduate schools that had similar problem sets.

Before you knock, the prestigous schools - go try being a visiting student there for a semester and take those intro courses. They're tough and don't compare. Plus they weeded out all the idiots that might make the curve easier.

i want to add that to be quite blunt, sometimes nobody gets an A in physics, etc. at a CC because nobody knows jack #$%@. The whole class does horrible and the instructor believes it woudl be insulting to his own intelligence to give out an A just because somebody was less mediocre than everyone else.

Sorry if i sound condescending about this but it's the truth.

 

[star22]

I went to a top ivy and when I was in high school, I took physics at a local college. There is NO comparison between the course work. I made an A in that physics class (no generous curve, but I was top in my class) without breaking a sweat - they even asked me to TA. Now, if I took the same course at the Ivy, I'd be struggling for that B/B+. Mainly b/c the material typically covered at a state school or a normal school for the entire semesters, is only the first 1/3 of my Ivy's course. By the end of the semester, I was googling for help from state graduate schools that had similar problem sets.

Before you knock, the prestigous schools - go try being a visiting student there for a semester and take those intro courses. They're tough and don't compare. Plus they weeded out all the idiots that might make the curve easier.

My experience with this has actually been quite different. I took a calculus class during summer quarter one year at my public state school and there were a few people in that class that were home for the summer from their private schools (one was from Princeton, but an architecture major) and they both pulled like B-/C+ in the course.... maybe they just needed the credit and weren't very motivated, but still!! Also a girl I work with went to a fairly highly ranked undergrad, graduated with a 3.2 and then took prereq courses for nursing school (heavy on psychology, sociology) at our local jc and pulled a 3.2 there too. Just because the average incoming SAT score at a public school is lower than a prestigious private school, that doesn't mean the people aren't hardworking and motivated and I think that dictates how competetive a class will be.

Also, as for ivies covering more material... I have heard that a lot of schools (public and private) are teaching out of the same textbooks for general bio, chem, etc, so how different could those classes really be.

 

[Rafa]

Also, as for ivies covering more material... I have heard that a lot of schools (public and private) are teaching out of the same textbooks for general bio, chem, etc, so how different could those classes really be.

Two classes can teach out of the same book and share almost nothing in material coverage. Class A from School A might use the first 10 chapters of a 30 chapter book, while Class B from School B might use all 30 chapters. Class A might skip and hop through the book, while Class B might hold students responsible for every single page between the acknowledgements and the index. Just because two classes/schools use similar texts doesn't mean the material they teach has to share anything in common. I agree with MSTP.

 

[jillibean]

Two classes can teach out of the same book and share almost nothing in material coverage. Class A from School A might use the first 10 chapters of a 30 chapter book, while Class B from School B might use all 30 chapters. Class A might skip and hop through the book, while Class B might hold students responsible for every single page between the acknowledgements and the index. Just because two classes/schools use similar texts doesn't mean the material they teach has to share anything in common. I agree with MSTP.

I went to a public school and we definitely made it through the entire text books in our general classes. How else would people be prepared for the MCAT?

 

[hotdog003]

My kid wants to study premed and due to some unique circumstances the choice is between Duke and ASU. The discussion on this forum has been interesting. The acceptance rate from Duke is 85% where as ASU is is quite affordable for us as we are AZ residents.
Kid's SAT is 2250 and 4.0+ GPA in HS.

Also University of Arizona Med School considers only AZ residents for admission and they are increasing seats by opening Phoenix campus in addition to Tuscon campus. Now the question: Is it worth while to spend the money for Duke BS (premed) (COA 48K/year) compared to BS at ASU (COA 17K/year) when the goal is to get into Med School?

 

[ryandote]

My kid wants to study premed and due to some unique circumstances the choice is between Duke and ASU. The discussion on this forum has been interesting. The acceptance rate from Duke is 85% where as ASU is is quite affordable for us as we are AZ residents.
Kid's SAT is 2250 and 4.0+ GPA in HS.

Also University of Arizona Med School considers only AZ residents for admission and they are increasing seats by opening Phoenix campus in addition to Tuscon campus. Now the question: Is it worth while to spend the money for Duke BS (premed) (COA 48K/year) compared to BS at ASU (COA 17K/year) when the goal is to get into Med School?

No way. There is obviously a point where the marginal cost of a prestigious name is just barely less than the marginal benefit of a prestigious name...but in my opinion, (31k x 4 yrs) is way past that point, ceteris paribus.

However, if you have other characteristics to take into account (not ceteris paribus) make sure you factor that into your decision.

In my opinion, your education (especially your undergrad) is MUCH more clearly defined by your attitude and effort than the name of your school. Also, in your particular case, ASU is an E-freaking-NORMOUS institution with plenty of opportunities for research, diversity, extra-curricular involvement, etc.

good luck

 

[dkc12]

Proximity of a top 10 school to your university helps too. I attended an AMSA event in which students accepted to medical schools offered their story and advice. One of the students attended her undergraduate at the State University of NJ and took the MCAT twice; she didn't break 30 the first time and thought she would do better the second time around and ended up with a similar below-30 score. She ended up going to UPenn. Another student who rushed his undergrad in 3 years at Rutgers also was accepted in Penn. Penn allows their current students to chime in on the interview process by evaluating applicants; he mentioned that they were interview a good number of students from the state university of nj.

A lot of state schools are big time research institutes. The university I've been talking about all along also has a medical school campus adjacent to it along with a trauma center hospital as well as a Drexel affiliated big time hospital.

I can see how the rest of what most people are saying on this thread is true but, this is just adding another perspective.

 

[realitybias]

I hope to god it doesnt stop me. I'm disadvantaged, couldnt have possibly attended a bigger school (heck, I didnt even have the money to APPLY to the ivys), and I go to a small state school with an average ACT of 22-23 (Depending on the year). Yes, I am a big fish in a small pond... I've managed to keep up a 3.7 GPA, and I've got a TON of extra-currics, but my school doesn't even appear on mdaps, so I have no idea how I am doing in comparison to others who come from my school. I have big dreams, and I hope they won't be crushed by my school's small status...

 

[Vvandenn]

I hope to god it doesnt stop me. I'm disadvantaged, couldnt have possibly attended a bigger school (heck, I didnt even have the money to APPLY to the ivys), and I go to a small state school with an average ACT of 22-23 (Depending on the year). Yes, I am a big fish in a small pond... I've managed to keep up a 3.7 GPA, and I've got a TON of extra-currics, but my school doesn't even appear on mdaps, so I have no idea how I am doing in comparison to others who come from my school. I have big dreams, and I hope they won't be crushed by my school's small status...

Mine doesn't either.

 

[maestro1625]

hmm, so should I comment that "wow this is an old thread", or should I congratulate you all for using the search function...?




but in all seriousness. it doesn't matter. get the MCAT and it's all good. GPA in the end will matter a lot less than your test scores, "easy school" and whatnot doesn't even factor in unless your gpa is low.

 

[RollSkins]

Bottom line: Most people that want to go on to a Top 20 med school from a lesser-known ugrad, need an MCAT of 35+. But for those happy to go to their unranked state medical schools, MCAT and pedigree is not nearly as important.

Yeah I think this is mostly true, there are obviously acceptions to everything in this process. Just a quick example: This girl I worked with one summer got a 42 on the MCAT and had a 3.9 GPA from Pacific Union College (PUC) in California. Anyway when she interviewed at Harvard they told her that everything on her application looked good and they only had one question for her and that was what is PUC? Long story short she didn't get in. I mean she got a freaking 42!

Anyway I hope this dosen't hurt me to much as I go to a small private school and really want to go to vandy or duke. My GPA is right at their average acceptance and my MCAT practice tests are slightly higher (Hopefully I do as good on the real thing). So I hope all of you who say that it affects you are wrong! But i am pretty sure to some extent you are right.

 

[MahlerROCKS]

My kid wants to study premed and due to some unique circumstances the choice is between Duke and ASU. The discussion on this forum has been interesting. The acceptance rate from Duke is 85% where as ASU is is quite affordable for us as we are AZ residents.
Kid's SAT is 2250 and 4.0+ GPA in HS.

Also University of Arizona Med School considers only AZ residents for admission and they are increasing seats by opening Phoenix campus in addition to Tuscon campus. Now the question: Is it worth while to spend the money for Duke BS (premed) (COA 48K/year) compared to BS at ASU (COA 17K/year) when the goal is to get into Med School?

What happens if s/he changes their mind, and decides that they want to do something else? Medicine might place a relatively minor importance on one's undergrad school, but law and graduate schools sure as hell don't: establishing an academic pedigree is critical to be a successful academic. Besides, do you really want your child to attend the mecca of drunken-frat-boy party schools? Well, maybe the second mecca—you haven’t truly seen drunken frat boys until you’ve been to Dartmouth’s winter carnival

 

[solitude]

What happens if s/he changes their mind, and decides that they want to do something else? Medicine might place a relatively minor importance on one's undergrad school, but law and graduate schools sure as hell don't: establishing an academic pedigree is critical to be a successful academic. Besides, do you really want your child to attend the mecca of drunken-frat-boy party schools? Well, maybe the second mecca—you haven’t truly seen drunken frat boys until you’ve been to Dartmouth’s winter carnival

Agree, agree, and agree.

 

[QofQuimica]

My kid wants to study premed and due to some unique circumstances the choice is between Duke and ASU. The discussion on this forum has been interesting. The acceptance rate from Duke is 85% where as ASU is is quite affordable for us as we are AZ residents.
Kid's SAT is 2250 and 4.0+ GPA in HS.

Also University of Arizona Med School considers only AZ residents for admission and they are increasing seats by opening Phoenix campus in addition to Tuscon campus. Now the question: Is it worth while to spend the money for Duke BS (premed) (COA 48K/year) compared to BS at ASU (COA 17K/year) when the goal is to get into Med School?

Are you so independently wealthy that dropping an extra $120,000 means nothing to you? If so, would you please adopt me as an older sister for your kid??? I'm fully scholarshipped, so you won't even have to pay for my med school tuition! If not, I think that sending him/her to Duke for that kind of money is sheer insanity, especially when you consider that med school is going to be even more costly and require taking out six figure loans for most people. It just blows my middle-class mind that anyone short of Bill Gates would seriously even consider doing this....

 

[hotdog003]

Duke's COA is 48K/year and it will be covered by parents, federal student loans, campus/summer work, Duke grants, outside scholarships etc.
Once BS is completed the kid will have to be substantially on her own for the med school expenses.

How difficult is University of Arizona med school to get into? Will Duke name help in getting in University of Arizona?
The larger issue is either to spend money for brand name BS or economize for BS and use the money for Med school?

 

[cleothecat]

Grade inflation at Harvard became so blatant that even the administration had to address it directly.

Meanwhile, some large Canadian "state schools" such as U of Toronto, Western Ontario and McGill have class bell curves that would make many "down southers" glad thaey are not north of the border.

Big name private schools students getting an easier ride into medical school? If it is true, it is almost prejudicial.

 

[QofQuimica]

Duke's COA is 48K/year and it will be covered by parents, federal student loans, campus/summer work, Duke grants, outside scholarships etc.
Once BS is completed the kid will have to be substantially on her own for the med school expenses.

How difficult is University of Arizona med school to get into? Will Duke name help in getting in University of Arizona?
The larger issue is either to spend money for brand name BS or economize for BS and use the money for Med school?

My vote is to economize for the BS and use the money for med school. Financing medical school is WAY more painful for most people than financing college is. Your daughter has very good high school grades and a very good SAT score. She might even be able to get a full scholarship to the U of Arizona, and then she'd wind up not having to pay for college at all. I'm from Florida; our state government actually pays for in-state students to go to one of the FL colleges if their GPA and SAT are above a certain level. I took advantage of that program fifteen years ago, and I'm still VERY happy with that decision. I don't know what kind of program the state of AZ has, if any, to fund in-state college students, but you should check into that. One of the best gifts you can give your daughter to start out her adult life is freedom from the burden of extreme amounts of debt.

 

[hotdog003]

My vote is to economize for the BS and use the money for med school. Financing medical school is WAY more painful for most people than financing college is. Your daughter has very good high school grades and a very good SAT score. She might even be able to get a full scholarship to the U of Arizona, and then she'd wind up not having to pay for college at all. I'm from Florida; our state government actually pays for in-state students to go to one of the FL colleges if their GPA and SAT are above a certain level. I took advantage of that program fifteen years ago, and I'm still VERY happy with that decision. I don't know what kind of program the state of AZ has, if any, to fund in-state college students, but you should check into that. One of the best gifts you can give your daughter to start out her adult life is freedom from the burden of extreme amounts of debt.

Thanks for input.
Unfortunately kid has heart set on Duke. I am hoping that in addition to Duke's prestigious name, they really will prepare a student academically and socially and as a result the student will do well in MCAT and interviews to get in. Once money is spent for Duke, a viable option for Medical school is University of Arizona. Being a state school, today the tution is 16K/year for residents and it should go up to 20K/year in four year's time.

I don't know how students manage 50-60K/year debt for out of state Med schools or private Med schools and pay it back. Do Doctors make enough money to pay back loan in 5-10 years time?

 

[MahlerROCKS]

I don't know how students manage 50-60K/year debt for out of state Med schools or private Med schools and pay it back. Do Doctors make enough money to pay back loan in 5-10 years time?

Undergraduate loans generally have a payback time of 10 years, while medical school loans have a 20+ year payback window.

 

[omegaxx]

Yeah I think this is mostly true, there are obviously acceptions to everything in this process. Just a quick example: This girl I worked with one summer got a 42 on the MCAT and had a 3.9 GPA from Pacific Union College (PUC) in California. Anyway when she interviewed at Harvard they told her that everything on her application looked good and they only had one question for her and that was what is PUC? Long story short she didn't get in. I mean she got a freaking 42!

Anyway I hope this dosen't hurt me to much as I go to a small private school and really want to go to vandy or duke. My GPA is right at their average acceptance and my MCAT practice tests are slightly higher (Hopefully I do as good on the real thing). So I hope all of you who say that it affects you are wrong! But i am pretty sure to some extent you are right.

It's Harvard after all. Everyone at the interview stage are wicked. I suspect they select who they accept by picking names out of a hat
And I bet you she got a good look at WashU

 

[josh999123]

Thanks for input.
Unfortunately kid has heart set on Duke. I am hoping that in addition to Duke's prestigious name, they really will prepare a student academically and socially and as a result the student will do well in MCAT and interviews to get in. Once money is spent for Duke, a viable option for Medical school is University of Arizona. Being a state school, today the tution is 16K/year for residents and it should go up to 20K/year in four year's time.

I don't know how students manage 50-60K/year debt for out of state Med schools or private Med schools and pay it back. Do Doctors make enough money to pay back loan in 5-10 years time?

No real question if you can afford it. Duke is an amazing experience. Nothing bad about ASU, but Duke is incredible. Also the financial aid is very good, research opportunities are amazing, and the social atmosphere is unparalleled. By the way if you want to look at the annual report for Duke Students admitted to med school and where they go you can find it here: http://prehealth.trinity.duke.edu/app/matriculants/. In the appendix of this website you can find the annual reports of how we fair against other applicants at: http://prehealth.trinity.duke.edu/. By the way I know a few of the Duke People from Arizona end up in the UCs and other places.

 

[ryandote]

hmm, so should I comment that "wow this is an old thread", or should I congratulate you all for using the search function...?

Either that, or you could notice that the poster who dug this thread up is VERY new to the forum and then have some compassion and try to answer his question...

your call.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks for input.
Unfortunately kid has heart set on Duke. I am hoping that in addition to Duke's prestigious name, they really will prepare a student academically and socially and as a result the student will do well in MCAT and interviews to get in. Once money is spent for Duke, a viable option for Medical school is University of Arizona. Being a state school, today the tution is 16K/year for residents and it should go up to 20K/year in four year's time.

I don't know how students manage 50-60K/year debt for out of state Med schools or private Med schools and pay it back. Do Doctors make enough money to pay back loan in 5-10 years time?

Ah. This complicates things. If your daughter didn't care where she went, the answer would be obvious to stay in state. When I had this discussion with my parents as a high schooler, this was our deal: I would stay in-state and go to college for free, then they would help me if I went to med school (which I wound up not even doing after college). That's actually another thing you might consider; four years is a long time, and a lot of kids change their minds. I ended up falling in love with chemistry and went to grad school. I didn't start med school until I was 31. Your daughter is presumably, what, 17, 18 years old? She may not feel the same about med school in four years. Is it still worth sending her to Duke if she decides halfway through to become a literature major?

I guess if she really has her heart set on going to Duke, I would recommend that you contact the Duke financial aid office and find out what other options there are besides taking out loans to fund her education. For example, maybe she could do work-study. This is a government program that subsidizes students and they do some kind of job on campus. (I'm not totally positive that work-study is offered at private schools, actually, so you'd need to find out about that.) There may also be outside scholarships that she could apply for. I'm talking about scholarships that are awarded by private agencies, maybe even the company that you or your spouse work for. There are websites that give lists of these scholarships. Even if she only gets a few thousand dollars in scholarships, it all adds up. And of course, it goes without saying that she should be very frugal in school: live with a roommate, try to avoid buying a car, etc. Housing and transportation are the biggest costs for most students, so minimizing them is essential.

Your daughter sounds like a very talented girl; I wish her the best with college.

 

[hotdog003]

Ah. This complicates things. If your daughter didn't care where she went, the answer would be obvious to stay in state. When I had this discussion with my parents as a high schooler, this was our deal: I would stay in-state and go to college for free, then they would help me if I went to med school (which I wound up not even doing after college). That's actually another thing you might consider; four years is a long time, and a lot of kids change their minds. I ended up falling in love with chemistry and went to grad school. I didn't start med school until I was 31. Your daughter is presumably, what, 17, 18 years old? She may not feel the same about med school in four years. Is it still worth sending her to Duke if she decides halfway through to become a literature major?

I guess if she really has her heart set on going to Duke, I would recommend that you contact the Duke financial aid office and find out what other options there are besides taking out loans to fund her education. For example, maybe she could do work-study. This is a government program that subsidizes students and they do some kind of job on campus. (I'm not totally positive that work-study is offered at private schools, actually, so you'd need to find out about that.) There may also be outside scholarships that she could apply for. I'm talking about scholarships that are awarded by private agencies, maybe even the company that you or your spouse work for. There are websites that give lists of these scholarships. Even if she only gets a few thousand dollars in scholarships, it all adds up. And of course, it goes without saying that she should be very frugal in school: live with a roommate, try to avoid buying a car, etc. Housing and transportation are the biggest costs for most students, so minimizing them is essential.

Your daughter sounds like a very talented girl; I wish her the best with college.

Thanks for the input. Are you an MD now?
I don't think she will change her mind and change to literature major. She is 17.5, 4.0+, SAT 2250 and was valedictorian at her HS. Duke has given 2K in federal work study (yes private schools do offer work study) and 5K in subsidized loans, but no grants (due to unique circumstances). So I am trying to collect information about outside scholarships. I am hoping, with preparation from Duke, she may have a better chance of getting a seat at U of AZ Med School, which should have reasonable costs. She may want to take large loans on her own and go to some out of state Med School.
Coming from frugal background, ASU BS + help for med school is a good option in my opinion. But its not clear whether ASU BS will help in getting a seat in Med school. and pushing her to ASU BS may demoralize her.
I think dental profession is better for her (4+4 and you are earning and the profession is good for keeping a balance between work and family) but its not easy to convince teenagers of anything.

 

[hotdog003]

No real question if you can afford it. Duke is an amazing experience. Nothing bad about ASU, but Duke is incredible. Also the financial aid is very good, research opportunities are amazing, and the social atmosphere is unparalleled. By the way if you want to look at the annual report for Duke Students admitted to med school and where they go you can find it here: http://prehealth.trinity.duke.edu/app/matriculants/. In the appendix of this website you can find the annual reports of how we fair against other applicants at: http://prehealth.trinity.duke.edu/. By the way I know a few of the Duke People from Arizona end up in the UCs and other places.

Thanks for the reply.
Do they feel Duke BS gave them some advantage in competing for seat in Med School. Duke is so expensive that I may not be able to offer much help for Med school expenses. If expenses for BS were reasonable, offering help for Med school is thinkable.

Also assuming you are a Duke student:
Duke estimates 3K-3.5K for indirect expenses. Is 3-3.5K just enough for a frugal person or one has to budget more money for a typical freshman?

 

[glamqueen]

Um...you shouldn't convince teenagers of anything either. She's about to be an entering freshman, and what she does is her choice. I hope you also remain open-minded in case she does change her mind about her profession. You imply that literature majors are not students with her stats, but I assure you - they are. When I was 17.5, I was unsure what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. She may very well go into medicine, but if she does not - I hope you let her live her own life.

As for paying for medical school - it's usually loans for everyone, and of course she would take them out herself. She would be 22-years-old and an adult.

I hope your daughter has much success and a great freshman year wherever she starts.

 

[ryandote]

...
I am hoping that in addition to Duke's prestigious name, they really will prepare a student academically and socially and as a result the student will do well in MCAT and interviews to get in ...

Hate to be a naysayer, but you seem receptive to opinions...

In my experience (which amounts to me, 15-20 close friends, and some very modest SDN participation) preparing for the MCAT is much more of a personal-motivation type thing than an institutional responsibility. Maybe this is because the MCAT isn't a "test-material" type of test, but a "test-method" type of test. Duke is an awesome institution and I'm still praying to get in off the med school waitlist... but that much money and effort for undergrad seems overkill if you are looking for MCAT benefits.

I'd almost have to say the same thing about social benefits. Whether you are talking about professionalism for interviews or cameraderie for fellow students or just plain being a good person - your attitude is much more important than your enviroment. ASU will still have clubs, frats, societies, practice interview, etc...but that much money and effort for Duke undergrad seems overkill if you are looking for social benefits.


There is something to be said for a name, but how much is to be said for a name depends on the person. Seriously, if the difference ends up being 31k/yr (not even counting time on money!) you will pert'near pay for UofA SOM tution and living expenses with the savings.

Another vote for economizing on the BS, if you can talk your daughter into it. Good luck to your daughter and hopefully she is grateful for your support (and not just the $$$). I wish I got more than "It costs HOW MUCH to become a doctor ?!?" from my family

 

[cgscribe]

As long as you do solid gpa/MCAT/ec's, you're good no matter where you come from. But, all else being equal, a prestigious name helps.