Don't make the same mistakes as me! (for non-trads)

[LondonBliss]

After many years of being out of school and a couple of years working in research, I can say I am so ready for vet school. I miss the classroom and the learning. I can learn at my research job, but I feel like the work is a responsibility that affects other people whereas going to school is a responsibility that affects only me.
I can see how you would be exhausted, though. Sounds like you had a very full schedule. I guess I am just exhausted from research and my co-worker's annoying habits. I welcome the day I can finally go to vet school and hopefully fit in with likeminded people.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rileyroo]

I guess I am just exhausted from research and my co-worker's annoying habits. I welcome the day I can finally go to vet school and hopefully fit in with likeminded people.

just as a forewarning...your classmates will have annoying habits and you will likely be spending 8-5 monday through friday with them and it is draining!! so vet school won't relieve you of that. it might actually make it worse. i didn't realize how much space i really like until i got to vet school and am forced to spend so much time with the same people.

 

[hahatoofunny22]

Thank you for posting this. I'm a non-trad too. I graduated in 2008 with an idea of what I wanted to do specifically --- lab animal research. I had no idea of how to pursue this and if I wanted to get a PhD, MD or DVM. I decided DVM would be the best and finally applied this year and the only pre-req I had left was Biochem which I took at UCLA. I absolutely struggled here being at a new school and went from having mostly A's in the sciences to having two C's ding my record. My husband was in an masters program there which is why we moved there. After he was done there, we left really quickly because we hated it there!! Hopefully, they look at me as a whole person and not OMG she's bad at Biochem! lol If I get in next year, I would have taken three years off after my undergraduate and I'm quite nervous. It's nice to hear stories of non-trads because sometimes I feel inferior! lol I applied to my home school VMRCVM. I'm back home now and I have no desire to go anywhere else. I want to stay in Blacksburg where I love to be so that I'll have the support of my family and be able to go to school that trains veterinarians for options other than private practice!!

You should be quite proud of yourself for being to get there at all. And then you should be quite proud of yourself for continuing to stick it out and push yourself!!

 

[sumstorm]

I decided DVM would be the best and finally applied this year and the only pre-req I had left was Biochem which I took at UCLA. I absolutely struggled here being at a new school and went from having mostly A's in the sciences to having two C's ding my record.

Personally, if I was in your situation, I would enroll in some more science courses that you can nail. The 2 C's isn't a huge deal, but what you don't want is adcoms questioning whether you can still hack school/science now, based on your recent grades.

So why did you settle on a DVM vs a PhD?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I want to stay in Blacksburg where I love to be

Say hi to the old town for me. I miss it

More advice. If you don't have mandatory attendance, and you have better uses for your time, do not be afraid to skip class. If you learn the material better on your own, and the class bores the cr*p out of you, don't feel obligated to go. You're an adult. I was notorious for not going to certain classes - and I ended up fine because I simply learned it better on my own than having to sit through mindless powerpoint.

Make friends with the techs. They will save your butt fourth year.

Don't fall behind. Really, it gets very overwhelming if you let things go. If you stay on top of things, you will only be "whelmed"

 

[sumstorm]

More advice. If you don't have mandatory attendance, and you have better uses for your time, do not be afraid to skip class. If you learn the material better on your own, and the class bores the cr*p out of you, don't feel obligated to go. You're an adult. I was notorious for not going to certain classes - and I ended up fine because I simply learned it better on my own than having to sit through mindless powerpoint.

Yeah, we technically have mandatory attendance. Of course, no one actually takes role (yet, we have these new clickers that would make it possible to do so.) But some of the profs are known for increasing the complexity of exams to inversely reflect the number of students in the classroom. So, even though it is far worse for my ability to learn I end up sitting through endless hours of class where I don't process anything, end up aggravated, and still have to teach myself.

 

[laurafinn]

My advice is: Things do get better -- or at least they end You can do it!

As for real world experience not being acknowledged -- I think if you come at vet med with a beginner's mind, you'll be OK. Vet med as it is taught in vet school is a new field for everyone in the class, and your past accomplishments are just that -- in the past. Vet med is your future, and you will find your feet and do just as well in your new career as you have done in your old one.

You can and will rise to meet the challenges in vet school -- many have come before you and done just that. You will too.

 

[Armymutt25A]

(yet, we have these new clickers that would make it possible to do so.)

My wife uses the clickers at Campbell U and the profs have attendance quizzes here and there. Really annoying and sometimes the things won't connect to the system.

 

[sumstorm]

As for real world experience not being acknowledged -- I think if you come at vet med with a beginner's mind, you'll be OK. Vet med as it is taught in vet school is a new field for everyone in the class, and your past accomplishments are just that -- in the past. Vet med is your future, and you will find your feet and do just as well in your new career as you have done in your old one.

I personally think ignoring one's real world experience is poor advice. While some aspects of vet med are new to me, some I am far more versed in than the vast majority of vets. In particular, I have 2 decades of experience in animal behavior that included training and dealing with behavioral issues in everything from tree frogs and fish, to cats and dogs, to horses and bulls, to elephants and giraffes. To pretend that experience doesn't exist is a disservice to myself, my clients, my patients, and my school. Assuming that accomplishments that are in the past do not directly impact the future isn't practical. If I had not shared my experience in zoo vet med and my experience in training, I wouldn't have received the oppurtunity or the funding to do the research I am currently involved in (students without those experiences wouldn't be considered for solo research with large omnivores with a potential to inflict great damage.)

Experience isn't a static thing, it impacts who we are and what we do. When folks say vet school is the hardest thing they have ever done, all I have to think back to is having a guy go overboard in February in the N. Atlantic at the end of a 20 hour shift, on a boat where I experienced blatent sexual harrassment, intimidation, and general disparagement, and knowing that we were going to be doing everything in our power to keep that guy alive, including sharing body heat. Best of all was knowing it could have been any of us, at any time. The great thing about vet school and most of vet med (and I'm sure Armymutt can share this view) is that really, you can walk out at any time. It may ruin your career, but it won't end your life.

You can and will rise to meet the challenges in vet school -- many have come before you and done just that. You will too.

I think, on a nearly daily basis, that I hate vet school. It does get better, as you share your experiences and find mentors who value them and will help you use those experiences to shape your future, but I still hate it. If I express that I hate vet school to fellow students, the response I get is 'why are you here then? why do you want to be a vet if you hate vet school?' and for me, hating vet school has nothing to do with loving vet medicine. Two very different entitities. If someone told me that as a vet I would have to sit in a lecture hall for 4-12 hours a day with 80 other people listening to folks that have never practiced share stories about high school friends with the class, 10 minutes past the end of class, in the same monologue where they scold the class for being rude for packing up to move to the next class, I would never have applied to vet school. Again, having said that, we have some amazing professors, folks who I would come to class dressed as an elf if it caused them to teach more frequently. I don't see this as meeting the challenges, I see it as surviving this to do the work that I love. I didn't go out on the N. Atlantic fishing fleet because I loved fishing; I did it to improve species survival and sustainability. I don't go to vet school because I love listening to lectures, but to have the ability to sit an exam to practice veterinary medicine. For some this isn't rising to a challenge; its coping for the sake of obtaining a goal.

 

[rileyroo]

So, even though it is far worse for my ability to learn I end up sitting through endless hours of class where I don't process anything, end up aggravated, and still have to teach myself.

This is my experience as well. For some classes, I really benefit by going. But for others, I would benefit a lot more by taking that time out of class and reading the chapters/going over the notes myself. Having ADD, it's mentally exhausting to be in class 8-5 Monday-Friday and then go home and try to study/review/teach myself material.

If I could attend the classes I benefit from and not attend the classes that just make the day longer for me, I'd be a lot more successful and a lot less cranky. But the mandatory attendance wins.

 

[sumstorm]

Having ADD, it's mentally exhausting to be in class 8-5 Monday-Friday and then go home and try to study/review/teach myself material.

We're probably having similar experiences. I have ADD, but went to an undergrad with very small class sizes, lots of experential learning and interactive lectures. Just being in the classroom with 80 other people makes learning in that environment nearly impossible, even with professors I really like.

 

[rileyroo]

I have missed quite a few physiology classes, I admit. The professor confuses the living day lights out of me with his rambling and tangents. He's hilarious, and a great guy, but some days, I just don't feel like I'm learning from him.

my cardiac physiology professor was GREAT. and i really learned a lot from him. but the renal phys prof...not happening. i've never been so lost in a class and feel so clueless. this is the class i would do a lot better if i could not attend and spend that time reading the text, watching instructional videos on youtube, and reading through the powerpoints. but after sitting through them, i'm too exhausted and want nothing to do with the material when i get home...counterproductive.

 

[laurafinn]

.

 

[BlacKAT33]

I feel like all of my past experiences are not really helping me in school right now. So I can relate to the "past is the past" advice. Being more of a "research" person still does not make the core courses easier for me like some said. I've never had as much clinical experience as most people who were vet techs. So i kind of feel like there is no place where i shine.
There is so much research done on our campus and the med school that ANYONE can get involved in research whether they have done it before or not. But if you don't have a lot of clinical experience you are still behind because while I still need to work on taking blood (still have not done) other people who were previously vet techs are already doing neuters!! (no joke) If you "pass" on the knots in the shelter club you can then volunteer for them and help out in neuters....eventually doing them on your own as a first year. I don't even have the time to be at that level right now. It will have to wait til this summer when I do the VIDA trip lol

And Sumstorm, while I can see where you are coming from with your past experience that was life threatening....I know that vet school will never seem like the end of the world for you. But the truth is, most people have...and will...never have an experience like that. It sucks to say this, but I know many other people would think it but not want to admit it. Until we all have a life threatening experience like that, dropping/failing out of vet school does seem like the end of the world. I know, I wouldn't die, but in terms of what job I would have, how I'd make enough money to live the same lifestyle I have now, how I'd raise a family and be happy while working...i just can't think of anything else, so it does seem like it would ruin my life.
I knowwww this sounds stupid and immature, but the truth is...when it IS the hardest thing you've ever had to do in your life, that's what it will always be.... Until I have an experience similar to yours.

 

[bunnity]

I feel like all of my past experiences are not really helping me in school right now. So I can relate to the "past is the past" advice. Being more of a "research" person still does not make the core courses easier for me like some said. I've never had as much clinical experience as most people who were vet techs. So i kind of feel like there is no place where i shine.
There is so much research done on our campus and the med school that ANYONE can get involved in research whether they have done it before or not. But if you don't have a lot of clinical experience you are still behind because while I still need to work on taking blood (still have not done) other people who were previously vet techs are already doing neuters!! (no joke) If you "pass" on the knots in the shelter club you can then volunteer for them and help out in neuters....eventually doing them on your own as a first year. I don't even have the time to be at that level right now. It will have to wait til this summer when I do the VIDA trip lol

And Sumstorm, while I can see where you are coming from with your past experience that was life threatening....I know that vet school will never seem like the end of the world for you. But the truth is, most people have...and will...never have an experience like that. It sucks to say this, but I know many other people would think it but not want to admit it. Until we all have a life threatening experience like that, dropping/failing out of vet school does seem like the end of the world. I know, I wouldn't die, but in terms of what job I would have, how I'd make enough money to live the same lifestyle I have now, how I'd raise a family and be happy while working...i just can't think of anything else, so it does seem like it would ruin my life.
I knowwww this sounds stupid and immature, but the truth is...when it IS the hardest thing you've ever had to do in your life, that's what it will always be.... Until I have an experience similar to yours.

Don't worry about the blood draws and other clinical stuff. It's easy to think that EVERYONE else knows how to do EVERYTHING, but in reality one person might be able to draw blood on dogs and cats and another person knows how to prep a horse for surgery and another person knows about behavior. You can't compare yourself against the sum of your classmates. And research is important, and the ability to think like a researcher and evaluate literature is really important too.

And if you're around over the summer I'd be happy to take you to the SPCA or PAWS and teach you to draw blood

 

[sumstorm]

I'm not sure where the need for external validation of your life experience comes from. I could see where it might be cause some alienation.

Greeting information with an open mind has always worked for me. There's nothing to say you can't sit with it for awhile and weigh it against your life experience before dismissing it or embracing it.

Laurafinn, I'm not greeting information with a closed mind. Not at all. Actually, I take several extra courses and participate in research and attend seminars like AVMA. I highly doubt that if I was closed to information, I would have ever returned to vet school or attended any seminars or conferences. I also don't need validation, but assuming because a resident has a DVM means they are an expert in all aspects of all features of vet medicine is like assuming I will be an expert in all aspects of all features of vet medicine the day I graduate (or pass the NAVLE) or like assuming that just because someone got into vet school they are an expert on all material presented in all bachelor's programs.

I personally am not going to 'sit with it' when someone recommends never letting a pup out of it's home for the first 6 months of its' life; I understand the fear of disease, but I also know statistically lack of training and socialization is far more detrimental. I don't have these discussions in the middle of class. I talk to instructors later and say 'hey, I have this great contact with a vet in Norway that specializes in X, and I think he might be able to explain why Y increases thier production rate and how it could be implemented here' (in reference to how production numbers decreased when pen management was changed and that was called a 'failed' system.) When I first started here, I was brushed off (and I didn't do anything about that) but now that I have proven my chops and some of these leads have come through, if I mention something there is generally interest in it from the folks leading these programs. That isn't about my experience or how open I am to information....it is about improving education, animal welfare, and production, which supports the economic success of our school (and helps keep my tuition from skyrocketing.) If we can increase production by >20% by investing an extra 5 minutes during AI breeding, why shouldn't a student share that experience? Why shouldn't an instructor be willing to look into it more (or as you say 'sit with it')? Aren't we moving towards practicing evidence based medicine? I am not saying to anyone that they are wrong, but I am asking 'have your read X study out of Germany, it might be interesting.' Or 'have you looked at the position statements of ASVAB concerning socialization?'

I don't know what Armymutt does in the military, but I am sure if he attended the class on darting animals, he would learn a ton, but he may still know far more about the mechanisms behind the firearms we are using than any professor in the room. Does that mean he shouldn't make suggestions about keeping the mechanism from jamming or on improving accuracy based on his experience? (I'm using Armymutt as an example of that because my husband is ex-army and provided lots of great information on improving our darting skills even though he has 0 experience in darting.) Sometimes knowledge in other subjects is very beneficial; the engineer at school quickly accessed problems with the aquarium set-up that no one else recognized we didn't have that experience base to draw on. In my opinion, education isn't about passive receptivity of information, but about learning to meld information into usable processes and skills and includes the exchange of information between professionals and associates; these professors are my future associates. I am grateful to learn from them, but I don't see why it should be a one sided process. That may be a consequence of going to an undergrad that valued experential learning and working in fields where a lot of what is known is far less than what is unknown. None of us, not even the best DVMs, can know everything about every feature of this field. Just my opinion, it works very well for me, milage may vary.

 

[sumstorm]

I knowwww this sounds stupid and immature, but the truth is...when it IS the hardest thing you've ever had to do in your life, that's what it will always be.... Until I have an experience similar to yours.

Actually, I don't think that is immature. What I am saying is that for many folks, the perspectives are very different, and those different perspectives change how you interact with life, school, etc. For example, I am not intimated by professors getting angry at me while some of my classmates are because of that life experience. I've already lost next to everything (Rita took my home and my career) so that fear of losing this isn't there. I am not sure it is a good thing to lack that fear (kind of how I dislike cocky new skydivers, there should be a healthy amount of respect for that activity and having enough fear can be motivating, like when I need to study another couple of hours.) When you come in from another career, and you see something that can be easily remedied, sitting by and ignoring it can be painful. IE if you are experience in lab animals medicine with pigs, and know that adding weekly minimal enrichment to a pig enclosure can (based on published studies) reduce injury and illness by over 50%, you might think pointing that out to the professor contemplating using pigs for research is worthwhile (with the reference of course). Some instructors would recieve that information and ignore it, some will embrace it, and some will be rude about it simply on the basis that as a student you are 'clueless.' I personally find that dismissal, just because I am a student, frustrating. In my experience, it is eventually overcome, because someone says 'gee, that's interesting, let me look into it' and then factulty talks to faculty, and you start to develop a reputation for knowing about that topic. Just like some students will develop a reputation for being amazing are reading radiographs right out of the gate, and others will have an amazing ability with clients, etc. I think it is just dealing with that junction that is hard...dealing with the assumption that student = clueless. And I say that in regards to traditional students as well. Several of our students have survived childhood cancer, others lost parents early in life, others started breeding specialty flocks or competing at Westminster before they could legally work. In my undergrad, we had several students that had survived a school shooting. Maybe I am more irritated by the assumption that students are all the same and have nothing to contribute other than being sponges of knowledge. I think that bothers me now, with a decade out of school, than it would have straight out of undergrad. Or maybe it is because my undergrad valued student contribution and expected students to contribute outside knowledge when appropriate and moving away from that bothers me. Who knows.

Either way, I find it improves as time goes on. 1.5 more years of lecture based learning.

 

[Armymutt25A]

I don't know what Armymutt does in the military, but I am sure if he attended the class on darting animals, he would learn a ton, but he may still know far more about the mechanisms behind the firearms we are using than any professor in the room. Does that mean he shouldn't make suggestions about keeping the mechanism from jamming or on improving accuracy based on his experience?

I believe the correct term is the fundamentals of marksmanship. My military resume includes 11B - Infantryman and 25A - Signal Officer. I can also teach a course on effective communication via Power Point

I believe there is a saying among some organization's training school that the only easy day was yesterday. I agree that your current task may feel like it's the hardest thing in the world until you take on something more stringent. I assume that everyone here has had some muscle physiology and can grasp the concept of overload and recovery. The brain is no different. The hard part is exercising everything in order to excel. My biggest concerns about vet school is memorization. I haven't had to memorize much in a long time. I've been busy exercising other aspects. Stay up 24 hours and continue functioning the next day - no problem. Receive and process a whole bunch of information in a short time - easy. My current solution to the memorization problem is shadow boxing. I make physical contact with various objects and it helps me to remember things. I will be testing myself on Thurs at the vet clinic. It's been over a month since I've been there and we will see how much I remember.

As far as experience goes, I think it is important to ensure that those who discount you are aware of the value you bring. That means selling yourself. School is supposed to be an environment for learning, and there is no reason why it can't be a two way street. Challenge your professors. Sometimes they forget that there is a world outside of campus and the lab. My wife got marked off on a test for a question that asked about post-exposure treatment of a soldier for sarin. She came home, made me dust off part of my memory, and then proceeded to bury the professor in information that backed up her claim, and then added information that destroyed his claim. She got an extra 10 points for her efforts - I didn't get squat, even had to make dinner. The only way that you aren't going to get lumped in with the masses is to stand out. If it's important to you, then make it known. (BTW, it's easy to pontificate from the comfort of my office where I'm expected to be the expert) Hopefully I can lead the way in a new environment next year.

 

[toymoonhorse]

Thanks for this! As a current non-trad I was wondering if I should skip things like anatomy and physiology and other good courses my school offers: animal histology, immunology, etc... because they weren't part of the pre-reqs. After reading this, I really think I should slow down. I keep overwhelming myself with the pressure to be done in 2 years because I feel like I'm behind everyone else.

 

[rileyroo]

Thanks for this! As a current non-trad I was wondering if I should skip things like anatomy and physiology and other good courses my school offers: animal histology, immunology, etc... because they weren't part of the pre-reqs. After reading this, I really think I should slow down. I keep overwhelming myself with the pressure to be done in 2 years because I feel like I'm behind everyone else.

take those classes!!! if they were offered at my undergrad, i definitely would've waited a year and taken them. you'll be so thankful when you get to vet school.

 

[Graduatedly]

SOV - thanks for your post. As a recent career-changer, it really helps to know that there are others out there who have experienced (AND overcome) the bumps and obstacles non-trads face.

I recently applied to Columbia's post-bacc program and am very anxious to hear back about their decision in a few weeks . Meanwhile, I'm working F/T, volunteering at the aquarium, and beginning a volunteer shift at a shelter next week. I've been trying to figure out how to acquire a Vet Asst job once my resignation from my job takes effect.

Anyone have suggestions?


ALSO - many, many thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum. The plethora of advice/info I've received makes such a HUGE impact. You're all AMAZING!

 

[deleted266066]

.

 

[sumstorm]

For those wondering if extra classes would improve the vet school experience, I did take biochem and genetics the autumn before starting vet school. I personally do not feel like they helped me. Having said that, I have always been a bit of a science nut; I like to sit in a university library and browse the latest science journals for fun.

In my opinion, based on my experience, if you want to get a feel for the pace of vet school, take an intensive science course during an abbreviated summer program (ie ~4wks) where the professor prides him or herself on providing the same quality and quantity of material required during the normal semester. I personally found that pace comparable to what my 3-5 credit hour classes are like in vet school.

If you do have a strong science background (ie you've spent the last couple of years doing cancer research) you may also find that you know too much. IE it drives one of my fellow classmates crazy that we are being told a mutation in the 5' region will affect gene expression while mutation in the 3' will affect transcript stability...which is generaly true, but kind of like saying 'dogs have 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a mouth, and 4 legs'...generally accurate, but a bit of a simplification.

 

[StartingoverVet]

For those wondering if extra classes would improve the vet school experience, I did take biochem and genetics the autumn before starting vet school. I personally do not feel like they helped me. Having said that, I have always been a bit of a science nut; I like to sit in a university library and browse the latest science journals for fun.

.

Thank you for qualifying your statement Sunstorm.
I can certainly agree that for some people, extra classes may not be productive.

But for the non-trads with less/little science/vet med background (which is a fair number of them I believe) I stick by the advice.

For example, I took biochem before vet school and I find biochem no problem.

I have no background in anatomy, never dissected a mammal, and now being exposed to 1000 new terms is a huge problem to add to the burden of actually figuring out where they are etc.

Same goes for histology, developmental biology, etc.

To be one of a handful of people in the class that do not have as much exposure in these areas makes things extremely difficult. The pace of vet school would not be the issue if I weren't starting 10 lengths behind everyone else. A lot of ground has to be made up in a fast paced race.

So certainly, if you are a non-trad with a lot of science background, then classes may not help, but otherwise, they can make a huge difference.

 

[sumstorm]

But for the non-trads with less/little science/vet med background (which is a fair number of them I believe) I stick by the advice.

To be one of a handful of people in the class that do not have as much exposure in these areas makes things extremely difficult. The pace of vet school would not be the issue if I weren't starting 10 lengths behind everyone else. A lot of ground has to be made up in a fast paced race.

So certainly, if you are a non-trad with a lot of science background, then classes may not help, but otherwise, they can make a huge difference.

SOV, if you take a look back, I hated first year, with a passion. Was very bitter about it. I have been reassured time and again that non-trads tend to do poorly at first, but thier ability to connect concepts, work with people, understand interactions and cause-effect helps as education continues. I feel that is true this year where I am connecting a lot of information and seeing some of the trad students starting to fumble. There is still a ton of memorization, but much more conceptual connections. I am told next year it will shift even more towards putting together the components, and that in clinics non-trads tend to shine. We aren't here just because we love vet medicine; generally we have decided to trade something in for this oppurtunity (another career, family leisure, lifestyle, etc.)

I'm not basing my suggestions just on my experience.... I'm also including the experience of folks who took anatomy at an undergrad level (generally human) and felt it didn't help and may have even hindered, same with histology and parasitology. In some cases, students are having to unlearn material.

I am also being considering other part of life. In taking time off at my age to return to school, I am risking my lifetime earning ability. I am taking myself out of the market for 4+ years. I have had to confront the risk this creates when my husband was laid off this year. My advice isn't just about my reaction at the moment (which was more severe than yours...look at the thread about how it is going for 2013), but my reaciton looking back, and considering the business, financial, and familial implications of the decision to delay entry and pursue additional classes.

I feel confident that in another year, you will have survived, caught up, and have found your niche. You will discover that you can memorize immense amounts of material (but it will still be harder than your younger collegues because you KNOW in practice that much of that material is referential) but that you are faster at piecing it together, at seeing the practical implications, and understanding how to communicate that information, because you have likely done this often in your previous career (even though it was a very different field.) I honestly think in another year, when you get through it, you will feel differently. You may still dislike this process (I hate vet school with an intense passion, even now) but you will find the things that work for you and you will find your skills are what others are trying to learn.

I could be wrong...and I hope we revisit the idea in another year. I would not redo first year vet school now, even if there were NO OTHER consequences (ie no lost year, no lost income, etc) and if I was promised the best fellow students ever with the greatest technology and no familial stress and had all the knowledge that I have now (IE have learned all that material once already.) I think that is the biggest reason I am not sure it matters...because given all of that, I still wouldn't do that process again. I don't know that I would want to redo second year, but if someone said I had to, I wouldn't walk out the door rather than think about it (and I would with first year.) I did feel the way you do, especially about anatomy and histology, I hope you find your feet sooner than I did; its a hard year, and I think it is harder for non-trads.

 

[Hopeful Ram]

I'm a non-trad that has been accepted to CSU's joint MBA/DVM program beginning next fall. I have not taken any upper-level bio classes beyond a semester apiece of biochem and immunology. Reading this thread has made me a little nervous about how challenging it will be to keep up first year given my thin science resume.

I can take a couple classes this spring and summer -- does anyone have suggestions for which are most useful? I have been considering anatomy (human cadaver lab, not animal), microbiology, histology, and physiology. I would love help deciding which to prioritize.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I'm a non-trad that has been accepted to CSU's joint MBA/DVM program beginning next fall. I have not taken any upper-level bio classes beyond a semester apiece of biochem and immunology. Reading this thread has made me a little nervous about how challenging it will be to keep up first year given my thin science resume.

I can take a couple classes this spring and summer -- does anyone have suggestions for which are most useful? I have been considering anatomy (human cadaver lab, not animal), microbiology, histology, and physiology. I would love help deciding which to prioritize.

Try PMing Minnerbelle. Maybe she can tell which classes at CSU others may be having trouble with. It is kind of school specific. Having said that, I would go with anatomy if you haven't ever done a "real" dissection before (not counting worms etc). Just know that some of the details will differ.

And Sumstorm, I understand and agree with much of what you are saying. Not sure there is a right answer for everyone. It is just good for people to at least think about these choices.

 

[LivestockDoc]

I can take a couple classes this spring and summer -- does anyone have suggestions for which are most useful? I have been considering anatomy (human cadaver lab, not animal), microbiology, histology, and physiology. I would love help deciding which to prioritize.

Congrats on your acceptance!

CSU has a comparative animal anatomy course online that I highly recommend if you can't take an animal anatomy course in person. No, I'm not in vet school yet, but I took a graduate level dissection class at CSU after taking the online class, and found that the online class really helped prepare me for dissection.

 

[sumstorm]

I can take a couple classes this spring and summer -- does anyone have suggestions for which are most useful? I have been considering anatomy (human cadaver lab, not animal), microbiology, histology, and physiology. I would love help deciding which to prioritize.

Congrats!

My advice would be physiology > histology > microbiology > anatomy.

If I could have done anything differently, I would have taken an in depth medical terminology course before vet school. I think being up to speed on terminology would have helped me greatly. Now my mind automaticly process the info when I hear someone say 'the orifice is located just caudal to the papilla found on the ventral surface of the vault cranially to the pubic brim' the infomation sinks in..I can see it. Last year during anatomy a lot of phrases were like that, but I couldn't instincitvely put the directions together to get an image. Physiology across mammal species is fairly standardized and I am discovering that the better I understand physiology, the better I understand pharmacology, repro, anesthesiology, parasitology, etc. So knowing that really well seems to produce short cuts (I hadn't have physio since high school, so vet school first semester was my intro and I am grateful I focused on it a lot, which was hard with looming anatomy.)

The reason I put anatomy at the bottom is because of how many students I know took anatomy and did not find it very helpful. I am not sure if that is because there is a decent amount of structural differences and varying terminology, or because we are working regionally and comparatively instead of systematicly, or because the anatomy wasn't in depth enough to really give a step up in class (or because book anatomy is very different than cadaver anatomy.)

Microbio can vary so much.... and histology gets a little odd when you start looking at different species as well.

 

[nyanko]

Now my mind automaticly process the info when I hear someone say 'the orifice is located just caudal to the papilla found on the ventral surface of the vault cranially to the pubic brim' the infomation sinks in..I can see it.

Assuming that such a medical terminology course at most schools would focus on human anatomical reference terms, I don't think it'd be very helpful with respect to anatomical orientation in veterinary medicine. I think a person would be doing a lot more "relearning" after human medical terminology than they would from a physio course (your previous refutation to taking advanced science coursework before vet school...a bit silly IMO).

 

[Minnerbelle]

Congrats! I have a roommate who is a non-trad and also just finished her MBA part of her combined degree and is on her 2nd year of vet school. If you PM me your email, I can get you in contact with her.

My personal opinion is that the more you can be ready for the first part of your first semester the better, so that you can start off on a good footing and not fall behind as you begin adjusting your study habits for vet school. I'm not sure exactly how the DVM/MBA course schedule works, but the coursework for 1st semester 1st year consists of the two biggies (physiology and anatomy) and 2 little ones (radiology, immunology), and a selective course that you don't have to worry about because you pretty much get credit as long as you show.

You've already taken immunology so you've got that covered, and radiology is not very difficult, so I'd definitely go with preparing yourself for either physiology or anatomy. The first major exam for physiology covered a LOT of material, and includes mostly histology (it's really a combined physiology/histology course). If you're not good with histology, or aren't very good with microscopes, I'd personally recommend taking histology. If you're not used to thinking about different tissues/organs at their cellular level, there can be a very steep learning curve. I think they're pretty good about easing you into the actual physiology part of the course here. But if that's what you're more worried about, that can't hurt either.

If you have a hard time just straight memorizing names of bones and muscles... if might be nice to have anatomy right before starting school so that you have these names floating around your head already when the first wave of material comes around (but the caveat here is that I'm pretty sure that DVM/MBA students don't do anatomy until their second year). If you're not used to using your mind that way, that first exam can be kind of brutal. But at the same time, if you spend lab time actually paying attention, and then go in once a week after class and make yourself study what you were supposed to have learned that week, and stay on top of memorizing your origins and insertions... anatomy isn't especially hard to understand. So it's not too hard for someone without a science background to play catch up.

I dunno if that helps at all, but that's my opinion anyway. Congrats again!

 

[Armymutt25A]

Assuming that such a medical terminology course at most schools would focus on human anatomical reference terms, I don't think it'd be very helpful with respect to anatomical orientation in veterinary medicine. I think a person would be doing a lot more "relearning" after human medical terminology than they would from a physio course (your previous refutation to taking advanced science coursework before vet school...a bit silly IMO).

It may just be the way my brain works, but I think one would be better served by learning Latin and Greek roots. Most anatomy and physiology is based off these two languages, which are completely foreign and sometimes counter-intuitive to most native-English speakers. Just the few that I know have helped me in my recreational study of the various anatomy quiz sites I've messed with. Yes, I recreationally study anatomy. Trying to figure out why a human designed software a certain way gets exhausting and the natural world is my stress reliever.

 

[sumstorm]

I think a person would be doing a lot more "relearning" after human medical terminology than they would from a physio course (your previous refutation to taking advanced science coursework before vet school...a bit silly IMO).

Ahh, Nyanko, you enjoy reading what you want rather than what I write. I did NOT say human medical terminology. Strange that you somehow read 'human' in there. I actually think CSU's comparative anatomy would be interesting.

As for adv coursework, I do think it can be helpful, but I do not think it is helpful enough to delay application and entry into vet school for an additional year or more. In other words, I do not feel the benefit of an additional 2-3 semesters (if summer = semester) of adv course work (beyond the pre-reqs) will change the feeling of being overwhelmed or behind for a non-trad who has been out of academia for a decent length of time. I do believe the additional costs in terms of tuition/fee increases, additional tuition for the advanced courses, time away from generating income (and increasing income over time), and the additional costs of living as a student (even if working) are not equitable to the amount of relief that additional education may provide (if having upper division sciences right before vet school greatly reduced the load, by theory trad students shouldn't feel overwhelmed.) It's an opinion, and a different one than I had last year. I had very similar feelings last year about preparation and being behind due to time off, less coursework, etc and you criticized me for voicing those opinions then, and now you would call me silly for saying that I was wrong and am pretty sure it would not have been beneficial overall to have that extra work.

So, despite what you stated, I don't believe advance coursework shouldn't be taken before vet school, I don't believe it is worthwhile to postpone vet school to take advanced work. I suppose, if we believe all the advanced work is necessary, the Aus and UK schools are great failures, as are all vet schools that admit students who have completed pre-reqs early without adv classes (we have half a dozen of those in my class and some of those are top students, as are some of our non-trads that didn't take any coursework in the past 5 years.) I'm not a top student, so perhaps everything I say is worthless (then again, being a top student isn't a priority for me at this time, and I am working while attending vet school, and currently am the only income in my family.)

 

[yesnomaybe]

Thanks for this post! I'll be in this boat soon (hopefully).

 

[Hopeful Ram]

Thanks for the course suggestions, everybody! If I can get into a comparative anatomy class, I will definitely do that.

 

[nyanko]

Actually last year I criticized you for your extreme sky-is-falling outlook on literally everything, not for feeling like you were behind.

And a medical terminology class is pretty much going to be human, unless you already go to a school with a vet school (maybe). Did YOU miss the very first line in my post - that's what I said there? Unlike your walls of text, my post only HAD two sentences so really?

And I just can't agree with you, as a non-trad, that doing the extra stuff isn't worth it. I don't know how many times I've said that without my science background I'd be HURTING right now rather than in the position I'm in. My grades here are better than in undergrad by a long shot, and I really feel that having the background info lets me understand everything and put it together (ultimately the most important thing to me) on a higher level without as much studying as it may take without having had a lot of the underlying info before. The reality is that because of having taken extra science courses I don't have to spend as much time on details and can focus on really, really learning the concepts.

Are there instances where I haven't had it before or it's more detail than undergrad? OF COURSE there are - but then I have more time to try to learn those things too, due to not having to spend as much time on physio chem and histo/cell bio and such.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I promised an update on how things ended up 1st semester and if I still feel the same way so here it is......

The good news....
*I finished the semester passing the one semester classes respectably (1A, 2Bs, and a C)...
*I did better on the second exam than the first on almost every test save one (5 out of 6).

The bad news...
* I have failed 3 out 4 exams in Anatomy (counting the practical and written separately) and probably have very little chance of passing this class (mathematically no chance if there weren't a curve)...
* I seriously considered taking a leave of absence late in the semester because I was so drained.

So what have I learned....
1st off, there was a pretty big learning curve for me in figuring out the way they test here. Almost all the classes seem to emphasize identify (practicals) and fill in the blank (written) type questions, things I have not have to do at all in my academic endeavors. I have been much more of a conceptual person and this made the memorization load that much harder. That brings me back to the first point in my first post...

******I have absolutely no doubt that my original comments to take as many upper level classes before you get here is the right advice for others with a background like mine. *******

It just seems that it is insane to get into a situation where you are so far behind almost everyone else in the class. You are going to be forced to work much harder and much better than others just to stay afloat. And it leaves no room for error.

And that leads me to the other part of my point. I started the semester with no wiggle room. I was pressed for time, my energy was low, my health declined steadily from all the travel before school, etc etc. I needed everything to go perfectly and that just wasn't going to happen.

So my other advice is to make things as simple as possible and don't rush in from impatience. Just remember, the more balls you try to juggle, means more chances for something to go wrong to disrupt the show!

The good news is that the farther you get from the start of class, the less behind the ball you will feel. It hasn't gone away, but I know I have a lot of company now when I feel stupid (not a feeling I am used to). Still, it was a hard price for me to pay personally, a price I think I could have avoided, and one I hope none of you have to go through.

Finally I just want to thank the many SDN people who have written back on this forum and through PMs with their support. I do appreciate your thoughts. And I encourage anyone else with questions to continue to PM me, I think I have responded to everyone who has asked.

Personally I hate to reveal much of myself publicly, and I hope it helps some of you.

And for those of you who think you are alone in your doubts, problems, and struggles, be assured there is someone out there going through something similar.

HAVE A GOOD SEMESTER EVERYONE.

SOV

 

[racccjlm]

Dear SOV: You rock. I really admire that you're willing to put yourself out there so that others can learn from your situation. From what I've been told, the farther you get into vet school, the more conceptual/practical classes become. Hang in there, you're doing great. I second the *taking as many advanced classes as you can* bit even for people applying right out of undergrad. The classes will only help you (except maybe human anatomy haha). Cheers!

 

[sumstorm]

So, SOV, when will you know about anatomy? We are onto the next semester here.

extreme sky-is-falling outlook on literally everything, not for feeling like you were behind.

I really appreciate how great you are at judging me and my life. First I shouldn't be alive, now I shouldn't be allowed to have a semester or a year where the sky is falling. So, much like SOV, I was dealing with a lot of chaos first year. On top of that, my husband's income was decreased by 20%. We had already lost 45% of our income with my lack of full time work. My grandmother was treated for aggressive melanoma, my aunt died of pancreatic cancer, and my mother was hospitalized several times for a GI condition. In all of that, I also had to deal with my husband suffering from depression.

Now, I am sure all of that contributed to my 'sky is falling' attitude; for me, my sky was falling. My world was crumbling. I didn't realize how much until I reached this semester. I had to decide on withdrawing last semester because my husband was laid off. I went from running my business for 2-4 hours a week to 12-20 hours just to make ends barely meet, and we put our family home on the market to avoid facing foreclosure. But, I am sure that you would, of course, handle all of that without blinking an eye; it would have zero impact on your outlook, attitude, or ability while in vet school. Good for you. Strangely, despite all of that, I completed my first year and a half of vet school (with grades that rule me out of specialization), completed a challenging externship, and am in the last stages of completing my thesis/publication (defending in March.)

I am grateful, now, that my world has quit tipping so drasticly. I have a successful business (back down to a couple hours as I want them), exercising, husband is working, we still have a place to live, and I am still in vet school. It is amazing how much stress all of that took off my shoulders; how knowing you have a place to live next month impacts the ability to learn.

I do hope SOV finds next semester better. I do the opposite; I am incredibly prepared at the beginning of semesters and find the chaos emerges as time goes on, but the whole 'drinking from the firehose' has become easier for me as each semester procedes. And this semester is the best yet; even my advisors and some administrators have commented that my entire demeanor is different; I'm relaxed and happy, not fretting, worried, and overwhelmed. Some of the problems I listed (and that really bothered me) are very real...and some were addressed for the class of 2014 (including a change in teaching faculty.)

 

[LetItSnow]

#2) [...] For me, studying every night makes it difficult to get to sleep when I want as I need to unwind, and that leads to a vicious loss of sleep cycle which is hard to break.

I don't particularly want to wade into the argument at the tail end of the thread, but as a non-trad, I did want to highlight something SoV said. I'm not in vet school yet (fingers crossed), but I did go back to school as an adult to get there, so I have a tiny bit of experience.

I knew it might be tough to manage a full time job, family, and school. Working all day? Fine. Going to classes? Fine. Studying? Fine.

... but then I couldn't sleep because my mind just kept churning over the study material. Over and over I'd see diagrams of biochemical pathways, or charts of frog anatomy, or equations from physics. (The equations from physics always giggled at me in little demon-like voices. Just kidding.)

Maybe it's only a certain type of mind that experiences this, but when I saw what SoV wrote I thought "Yes! That's *exactly* it!"

So. If you're a non-trad thinking about heading down this path, make a plan to sleep. Don't blow off building in a half hour or hour after studying to relax. TV isn't evil. A cheesy mystery book isn't evil. Making out with your SO is definitely not evil. That hour will pay dividends the next day.

 

[StartingoverVet]

So, SOV, when will you know about anatomy? We are onto the next semester here.

Thanks for asking. Anatomy is a 3 quarter class at Penn. It ends in a couple of months.

Happy to hear you are feeling more upbeat.

 

[nyanko]

First I shouldn't be alive, now I shouldn't be allowed to have a semester or a year where the sky is falling.

You can add onto there that you are an absolute master of hyperbole.

 

[Dsmoody23]

There's no real need for forum gladiators here.

This isn't the Med. School SDN.

It's a shame to have to sift through drama and silliness to find the excellent information that's hidden in this thread.

 

[BlacKAT33]

There's no real need for forum gladiators here.

This isn't the Med. School SDN.

It's a shame to have to sift through drama and silliness to find the excellent information that's hidden in this thread.

this is true, but it just seems to happen when u become a "regular". you're bound to get into conflicts with people the longer you are around them (in person or on the forum). i guess its kind of like sibling fights?? now i know i turned both sumstorm and nyanko against me!!

i guess to add to the thread, i feel much better about this semester. and I hope you feel the same way SOV! im really enjoying all my classes, sooo much more interesting. and the free time is GREAT. i can BREATH!! i am even going to start volunteering this semester YAYY!!

 

[twelvetigers]

this is true, but it just seems to happen when u become a "regular". you're bound to get into conflicts with people the longer you are around them (in person or on the forum).

Orly?

 

[StartingoverVet]

So, SOV, when will you know about anatomy? We are onto the next semester here.

Well, I guess the cat's out of the bag (wow, that's a stupid expression)...

I failed Anatomy

Got the highest overall score of the failing students , yay?
And at least I passed the last exam.

I get re-examined over the summer.

To be honest, part of me really wanted to re-do the class because I really didn't learn the material well for the first miserable exam. Between getting sick for a week, and being utterly unfamiliar with the material, I just never had a shot. I walked into that exam knowing the outcome would be a disaster.

Hopefully, now that I have learned so much more, it will be easier to review and actually learn the material this time around.


And for all of you out there who worry all the time about what would happen if you fail.... stop worrying. The walls didn't collapse, the sky didn't fall (ok, there was an earthquake and a tsunami right around when I got my grade but I am pretty sure they were unrelated), and life continues on.

No depression, no suicide hotline. I just want to continue to motor on and learn to the best of my ability.

I remember before the anatomy exam I posted on facebook that I was just going to do my best to learn, and if that wasn't good enough then screw it. Worst that happens is I fail. Well, I did my best at the time and I got a lousy result. Oh well.

My last thought... As most of you on this forum, I am not someone used to failing completely.... but it doesn't define me.

If anyone else is having troubles and needs a pep talk feel free to PM me.

Now, finally, back to immunology

 

[lunajett]

Sorry to hear that, SOV. But I am thoroughly impressed with your attitude and that you are not giving up; you're a good example of just keep plugging away to acheive that goal.

I squeeked through last semester, definitely struggled with anatomy, both gross and micro, but managed to get the C's I needed. Doing much better this semester - had an A in anatomy for a while, has slipped down to a B but still a good chance of ending with an A. For us, the class is structured a little differently this semester which makes it easier to keep up. And a lot of the large animal anatomy this semester builds on the small anaimal anatomy we learned (or in my case *kinda* learned) last semester. So it doesn't all seem completely new. Immuno is my nemesis this semester. Very difficult subject with just tons of rote memorization and awful instructors who make it even that much harder. Basically we are all trying to teach ourselves immuno. It will be another squeeker, and I will be very happy to hang onto my C.

So when you say you are "re-examined" over the summer, does that mean you have another shot at passing by sitting for some huge "winner take all" exam? And you might not need to re-take the whole class and fall a year behind? Out here, if you fail a class, I believe the only option is re-taking the whole class. You fall a year behind, pay all the extra tuition, basically waste a whole year just to sit through one class. Not a pretty option.

 

[AHorseOffCourse]

Thanks OP - you have definintely confirmed in my mind that taking 3 months off before school starts and quitting my job is the right decision. Everyone else (not you guys - I mean in my *real* life) thinks I'm crazy, but I really feel like I'll need those 3 months to refocus on what is going to be a MASSIVE change in my life. After 5 years of being totally independent, being REALLY good in my job, and being THE person to go to when there's an issue related to my field.....now I'm going to be bottom of the totem pole, scrambling, know-nothing freshman . Don't get me wrong - I'm excited for the change and can't wait.....but it's going to be a big change. I'm skrimping and saving right now so that I take 3 months off and still pay the bills. Could i work those 3 months and save ton of money? Maybe. but mentally I wouldn't be in as good a spot.

 

[AHorseOffCourse]

Also - I'm worried about the SO thing a bit. I'm moving in with him (huge change #1, I've lived on my own for 5 years) and I don't think he appreciates how "different" I'm going to be once I get into school. When I was an undergrad, we were long distance so he didn't have to deal with me day to day in school, just on the weekends. I've tried to tell him that I will be studying close to non-stop and I won't necessarily be available to just sit and relax with him in the living room, go on random walks, cook, do housework etc. Yes, I'll still make the time to do some stuff, but school will be my job. His parents didn't go to college, he didn't go to college, his friends didn't go to college, so I'm not sure he realizes what this looks like - espeically on the vet school level. *sigh*. I'm crossing my fingers that a long term stable relationship (been together 11 years) works in our favor, we have good communication, and 3 months of living together before school starts will also help. I do think that having someone who is willing to take care of me emotionally and finacailly will help. I think I'm probably stressed about it because I don't know exactly what it will look like (yeah...I'm kind of a control freak) and just how bad school will be. In reality, everything will probably be fine after an initial adjustment. I'm just anxious to see how it will all work out.....

this is totally OT, sorry - ignore the thread hijacking!

 

[StartingoverVet]

So when you say you are "re-examined" over the summer, does that mean you have another shot at passing by sitting for some huge "winner take all" exam? And you might not need to re-take the whole class and fall a year behind? Out here, if you fail a class, I believe the only option is re-taking the whole class. You fall a year behind, pay all the extra tuition, basically waste a whole year just to sit through one class. Not a pretty option.

1 exam covering just the complete dog in the summer. Winner take all. Pass and you get to pass go and collect $200, fail and go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go and do not collect $200 (1st year do-over).

Basically covers about 1/2 the course. No large animal, no chicken.
Also no written, just a practical (I think).