DO's need more pride

[RickyRozay1]

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I just wanted to share an anecdote that I thought was quite alarming. First, to give some background. I am applying this cycle and applied to mainly MD schools and a few DO schools. I was actually intrigued by the DO philosophy which is why I applied. During my interview day for a DO school, my tour was lead by 3 students. At one point in the tour, I asked each of the tour-guides "Why DO?" What was very alarming to me is that all 3 of them essentially implied that they chose DO because they couldn't get into MD schools. As an applicant who has gotten into both DO and MD, and was considering DO, this was especially off-putting, and eventually led me to completely do away with the idea of attending DO school. Ever since then, I really have become just more confused as to what the difference is between the 2. The thing that confuses me the most is that nobody who I have ever talked to would choose a DO school over an MD, if they had the choice. But at the same time, I cannot help but to hear DOs relentlessly defending the field, and maintaining that it's the same as MD. The whole thing is a bit silly to me, and it seems to me that the DO field is a bit ambiguous and shrouded in mystery. Basically, I think that the field of osteopathy either needs to clearly assign its difference to allopathic medicine, or completely be done away with. I am not bashing osteopathy, I hope you realize, but I really just don't get the whole thing

 

[Iliketoytles]

I just wanted to share an anecdote that I thought was quite alarming. First, to give some background. I am applying this cycle and applied to mainly MD schools and a few DO schools. I was actually intrigued by the DO philosophy which is why I applied. During my interview day for a DO school, my tour was lead by 3 students. At one point in the tour, I asked each of the tour-guides "Why DO?" What was very alarming to me is that all 3 of them essentially implied that they chose DO because they couldn't get into MD schools. As an applicant who has gotten into both DO and MD, and was considering DO, this was especially off-putting, and eventually led me to completely do away with the idea of attending DO school. Ever since then, I really have become just more confused as to what the difference is between the 2. The thing that confuses me the most is that nobody who I have ever talked to would choose a DO school over an MD, if they had the choice. But at the same time, I cannot help but to hear DOs relentlessly defending the field, and maintaining that it's the same as MD. The whole thing is a bit silly to me, and it seems to me that the DO field is a bit ambiguous and shrouded in mystery. Basically, I think that the field of osteopathy either needs to clearly assign its difference to allopathic medicine, or completely be done away with. I am not bashing osteopathy, I hope you realize, but I really just don't get the whole thing

Interesting post. I think a lot of this has to do with people getting overly defensive. Clearly as the years have progressed since the founding of osteopathic medicine, the allopathic and osteopathic approaches have overlapped. Both are now relatively the same... allopathic schools may not say that they treat the body as a holistic blah blah blah... but I guarantee that they appreciate the body and musculoskeletal system just as much as osteopathic students do.

With that said... if people had the choice of going MD over DO (excluding all other factors like location, weather, tuition, etc.), you can bet they'll go MD. Why? Because it's more well known as "doctor". That's just the way it is... and there's nothing wrong with it.

Now the issue is that MOST people do go to a D.O. school because they aren't able to get into an MD of their choice. There are some D.O. schools that have higher stat averages than MD schools... so the question is why is there still a DO/MD division? Why not just clump all the schools as MD? In my opinion... it's solely because a few people want to grasp onto this concept of OMM; thereby keeping the "osteopathic philosophy" alive. Otherwise, the training is basically the same, correct? Clearly, D.O. med students can handle a similar, if not same, curriculum as M.D. students... so why not clump them together? Again... I think it's cuz of the few OMM specialists who think they are special.

They should make all medschools M.D. (I choose MD because, again, it's more well-known) and maybe include a semester or two of mild OMT training. Trying to keep the osteopathic philosophy "alive" does not justify the division... especially since the philosophy already overlaps both osteo and allo practices. D.O.'s get defensive after they don't get into an allopathic school simply because that's the way humans are. We try to cling to whatever we can so that our career path isn't judged or torn down by haterz. Is it wrong? Nah... it is kinda annoying though. lol

I'm not trying to sound like a traitor; these are just my opinions.

And I realized that I use "quotation marks" a lot. 🙄

 

[DoctorQuack]

The problem, I think, reaches back into the history of DOs in the US. You have basically had an older DO base trying to stick to their roots and their distinct identity difference from MDs, while the newer, younger students are pushing to become more like MDs and have the same chances/technologies (over the span of 100 years, same struggle). Currently, we have had the AMA officially recognize DOs as equals to MDs, but there is still a behind-the-scenes power struggle to keep AOA (DO) residencies separate from MD students. Each year, we see more and more DO students take the USMLE and forgo the AOA match entirely for historically MD-only ACGME residency spots. Why keep them distinct? The AOA's identity is at risk.

Traditionally, DO schools have offered grade replacement, which in this forum gets spun by overusing the term "holistic" in regards to their admissions criteria. Considering this is the most competitive year ever in the history of medical school admissions (by sheer volume), it won't be long until we start to see some of the more high-tier DO schools have matriculant averages (aka "LizzyM scores" lol) at or even above the MD school averages. There's just no slowdown of applicants right now, partly due to the recession-higher education cycle.

So when your 3 DO students say they couldn't get into MD schools, you're right, it's because they have no pride. They know it's an almost impossible battle to get into the competitive MD-only residencies like plastic surgery, dermatology, ENT, Ophthalmology, or what have you. Wouldn't you like knowing you're on equal footing with your MD counterparts when it comes to residency spots, regardless of field? Of course you would. I bet you 85% of current DO students right now think so, too. The other 15% are enjoying their AOA-only residency spots (which are not available to MDs at all) with much less competition.

That being said, what of the people that don't fit the cookie-cutter stereotype every damned MD school in the country is selecting for? The medical field is filling its ranks with a bunch of nerds with zero social skills and elitist attitudes instead of normal (albeit smart), hardworking folks that get along great with their fellow humans with different life paths. We all know these will make the greatest physicians (though of course studies have yet to be made). I think that's one of many things that the DO schools are doing right.

 

[ManBroDude]

Good points.

I would argue that the quality of education is nominally (if at all) different between DO and MD schools. Obviously the number one goal is to match into a residency of your choice doing what you love. What keeps on coming up over and over again on these forums is that what's more important to matching into those spots is not what specific school you attend as much as how hard you work at it and what Step 1/2 board scores you get.

 

[poopyhead]

During my interview day for a DO school, my tour was lead by 3 students. At one point in the tour, I asked each of the tour-guides "Why DO?" What was very alarming to me is that all 3 of them essentially implied that they chose DO because they couldn't get into MD schools.

Well, at least they're honest. It's better than them making things up that they don't personally believe in. But ya, I've encountered very few fellow interviewees who only applied DO. "Backup" and "just wanna be a physician" comes up quite a bit, contrary to what they tell adcoms

In the end, it's not going to make a big difference. A gun-ho DO applicant is not going to naturally be a better physician than a "couldn't get into MD schools" DO applicant. Just go with the flow I guess 😛

edit: @Iliketoytles, very well said 👍

Considering this is the most competitive year ever in the history of medical school admissions (by sheer volume), it won't be long until we start to see some of the more high-tier DO schools have matriculant averages (aka "LizzyM scores" lol) at or even above the MD school averages. There's just no slowdown of applicants right now, partly due to the recession-higher education cycle.

That'll probably last awhile given the economy is just getting worse and worse. Job prospects for physicians are just so much better than many other fields.

That being said, what of the people that don't fit the cookie-cutter stereotype every damned MD school in the country is selecting for? The medical field is filling its ranks with a bunch of nerds with zero social skills and elitist attitudes instead of normal (albeit smart), hardworking folks that get along great with their fellow humans with different life paths. We all know these will make the greatest physicians (though of course studies have yet to be made). I think that's one of many things that the DO schools are doing right.

That's kinda harsh with the overgeneralizations, doncha think 🙁

 

[Kevin Baker]

We're out there, but like with any political issue, the loudest people are those most heard, and many of the loudest DO students are those calling for a degree change or for absorption into the MD world.

 

[mashmetoo]

I just wanted to share an anecdote that I thought was quite alarming. First, to give some background. I am applying this cycle and applied to mainly MD schools and a few DO schools. I was actually intrigued by the DO philosophy which is why I applied. During my interview day for a DO school, my tour was lead by 3 students. At one point in the tour, I asked each of the tour-guides "Why DO?" What was very alarming to me is that all 3 of them essentially implied that they chose DO because they couldn't get into MD schools. As an applicant who has gotten into both DO and MD, and was considering DO, this was especially off-putting, and eventually led me to completely do away with the idea of attending DO school. Ever since then, I really have become just more confused as to what the difference is between the 2. The thing that confuses me the most is that nobody who I have ever talked to would choose a DO school over an MD, if they had the choice. But at the same time, I cannot help but to hear DOs relentlessly defending the field, and maintaining that it's the same as MD. The whole thing is a bit silly to me, and it seems to me that the DO field is a bit ambiguous and shrouded in mystery. Basically, I think that the field of osteopathy either needs to clearly assign its difference to allopathic medicine, or completely be done away with. I am not bashing osteopathy, I hope you realize, but I really just don't get the whole thing

Either/Or Fallacy (also called "the Black-and-White Fallacy," "Excluded Middle," "False Dilemma," or "False Dichotomy"): This fallacy occurs when a writer builds an argument upon the assumption that there are only two choices or possible outcomes when actually there are several. Outcomes are seldom so simple. This fallacy most frequently appears in connection to sweeping generalizations: “Either we must ban X or the American way of life will collapse.” "We go to war with Canada, or else Canada will eventually grow in population and overwhelm the United States." "Either you drink Burpsy Cola, or you will have no friends and no social life." Either you must avoid either/or fallacies, or everyone will think you are foolish.

 

[Stumpyman]

Either/Or Fallacy (also called "the Black-and-White Fallacy," "Excluded Middle," "False Dilemma," or "False Dichotomy"): This fallacy occurs when a writer builds an argument upon the assumption that there are only two choices or possible outcomes when actually there are several. Outcomes are seldom so simple. This fallacy most frequently appears in connection to sweeping generalizations: “Either we must ban X or the American way of life will collapse.” "We go to war with Canada, or else Canada will eventually grow in population and overwhelm the United States." "Either you drink Burpsy Cola, or you will have no friends and no social life." Either you must avoid either/or fallacies, or everyone will think you are foolish.

Lol, I can't believe you beat me to it! Basic English 101, it's such an obvious fallacy.

 

[Rollo]

In my opinion, OMM isn't enough of a distinct entity to keep the DO world separate from the MD world.

So yeah, I'm not proud to be a DO because there is nothing to be proud about as a DO. OMM? It isn't the greatest thing since penicillin; it is merely a tool that has limited uses in specific circumstances.

I would say I'm neither proud to be a medical student. Pride implies that you're a seed above the rest. I am, however, thankful to be a medical student. That much, I cannot take for granted.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So when your 3 DO students say they couldn't get into MD schools, you're right, it's because they have no pride. They know it's an almost impossible battle to get into the competitive MD-only residencies like plastic surgery, dermatology, ENT, Ophthalmology, or what have you. Wouldn't you like knowing you're on equal footing with your MD counterparts when it comes to residency spots, regardless of field? Of course you would. I bet you 85% of current DO students right now think so, too. The other 15% are enjoying their AOA-only residency spots (which are not available to MDs at all) with much less competition.

Too bad those residencies are usually weaker than ACGME programs and if you're talking about competitive ones then they are in small numbers.

That being said, what of the people that don't fit the cookie-cutter stereotype every damned MD school in the country is selecting for? The medical field is filling its ranks with a bunch of nerds with zero social skills and elitist attitudes instead of normal (albeit smart), hardworking folks that get along great with their fellow humans with different life paths. We all know these will make the greatest physicians (though of course studies have yet to be made). I think that's one of many things that the DO schools are doing right.

I wouldn't say this without any research backing you up. Frankly I'm tempted to believe there probably is no major difference in social skills between MD's and DO's, as they come from the same select population. And if you don't fit the cookie cutter stereotype, then you've been filtered out. Sorry, but most MD schools want to have their students pass the USMLE ( Mcat score is correlated) their first time and have sufficient EC's which make them know what they are getting into.


Furthermore, you're all getting trolled by the same person who is on here every month... 👎

 

[se20001984]

I would like to see more DO lead research programs

Mds have been very successful bc of research...

Most do schools lack labs..the population is also much smaller...and they will always be "under" bc of these...simply based on size and research

International Do PHYSCIAN schools should be set up to increasw enrollment and spread the philosophy

Myb2 cents

 

[aSagacious]

That being said, what of the people that don't fit the cookie-cutter stereotype every damned MD school in the country is selecting for? The medical field is filling its ranks with a bunch of nerds with zero social skills and elitist attitudes instead of normal (albeit smart), hardworking folks that get along great with their fellow humans with different life paths. We all know these will make the greatest physicians (though of course studies have yet to be made). I think that's one of many things that the DO schools are doing right.

Wow, nice false dichotomy there. So the majority of the current 72,000 MD students are socially inept? Is this from your experience during medical school? 🙄

 

[lacrosse87]

Wow, nice false dichotomy there. So the majority of the current 72,000 MD students are socially inept? Is this from your experience during medical school? 🙄

I would argue that in general, a high proportion of ALL med students (MD & DO) are socially inept

 

[willen101383]

Wow, nice false dichotomy there. So the majority of the current 72,000 MD students are socially inept? Is this from your experience during medical school? 🙄

People like to think that DO students are actually different than MD kids because they are more well rounded.

Well let me tell you this: there are MANY socially inept people in my class, MANY students who never have done anything with their lives outside of trying to get into medical school.

Guys that have no idea how to flirt with girls at parties. Girls that have no idea how to flirt with guys at parties.

Ive noticed there are a LOT of guys who just dont know typical "guy stuff." How to do simple automotive/house/electrical whatever work. Its interesting to me. Yeah I have done my fair share of construction work in my life...but still. I think a lot of the guys lacked a lot of what made my childhood great. I feel like unless you look back on your male childhood and adolescence and say "How the Fck did I actually make it through that alive and without a criminal record," you missed out on a lot of key things...and in my experience a lot of med students have.

DO students are NOT more socially aware than MD students. Both have their fair share of social rejects.


As for OMM/DO pride....I think I am outspoken enough about that stuff..so ill leave it be for now.

 

[Lewist02]

I just wanted to share an anecdote that I thought was quite alarming. First, to give some background. I am applying this cycle and applied to mainly MD schools and a few DO schools. I was actually intrigued by the DO philosophy which is why I applied. During my interview day for a DO school, my tour was lead by 3 students. At one point in the tour, I asked each of the tour-guides "Why DO?" What was very alarming to me is that all 3 of them essentially implied that they chose DO because they couldn't get into MD schools. As an applicant who has gotten into both DO and MD, and was considering DO, this was especially off-putting, and eventually led me to completely do away with the idea of attending DO school. Ever since then, I really have become just more confused as to what the difference is between the 2. The thing that confuses me the most is that nobody who I have ever talked to would choose a DO school over an MD, if they had the choice. But at the same time, I cannot help but to hear DOs relentlessly defending the field, and maintaining that it's the same as MD. The whole thing is a bit silly to me, and it seems to me that the DO field is a bit ambiguous and shrouded in mystery. Basically, I think that the field of osteopathy either needs to clearly assign its difference to allopathic medicine, or completely be done away with. I am not bashing osteopathy, I hope you realize, but I really just don't get the whole thing

First, your sample size is 3. Not a very good statistical analysis, although you will find this a lot. And I can think of at least 15 people in my class who turned down MD acceptances to come to PCOM. Again, maybe this speaks to PCOM as an institution and not the DO profession.

And i've answered posts like this many times, and the blogs are out there, it will just take some sorting through the BS to find some semblance of truth. Many friends of mine are very proud to be pursuing Osteopathic Medicine and I am jealous at how good they actually are at OMM, considering it is more difficult for me. I really enjoy learning the manipulation. Some students get there, and find out they do not.

Not taking a liking for OMM does not make you any worse a DO than a student who does, IMO. Rollo is right, one should be proud to be a medical student first and foremost, regardless of your degree.

There are many misconceptions about both degrees in my opinion, and each degree will give you what you make of it and take from it. The best thing to do would be to look at the SCHOOLS you are applying to, and not degree you will confer (unless we are looking at students who merely go MD for the "prestige" that they think may be lacking in the DO field). The caliber of the institution and what it has to offer to you and your future career should be most important. Write a list of what you are looking for in a school, what resources, opportunities, and environment you want. Look at location, cost, rotation sites. Find the one's that fit you. Many of my friends who chose PCOM over some good MD schools chose PCOM because it suited their needs better.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Ive noticed there are a LOT of guys who just dont know typical "guy stuff." How to do simple automotive/house/electrical whatever work. Its interesting to me. Yeah I have done my fair share of construction work in my life...but still. I think a lot of the guys lacked a lot of what made my childhood great. I feel like unless you look back on your male childhood and adolescence and say "How the Fck did I actually make it through that alive and without a criminal record," you missed out on a lot of key things...and in my experience a lot of med students have.

DO students are NOT more socially aware than MD students. Both have their fair share of social rejects.

I helped my friend change his tire in a parking lot the other day. I was a bit surprised he didn't know how... considering he's a huge buff manly man. My supreme testosterone levels pitied him... at least during those 5 minutes.

 

[n3xa]

I helped my friend change his tire in a parking lot the other day. I was a bit surprised he didn't know how... considering he's a huge buff manly man. My supreme testosterone levels pitied him... at least during those 5 minutes.

My dad taught me how to do those things because I can't depend on a dude 24/7 to do those things for me.

Bonus points for bleeding brakes and changing oil.

 

[DrMaximus]

My dad taught me how to do those things because I can't depend on a dude 24/7 to do those things for me.

Bonus points for bleeding brakes and changing oil.

I am a 21 year old man and I still have not been taught to do these things properly... curse being raised mostly by my mom.

I have to get my dad to teach me this stuff before I leave for med school...

 

[n3xa]

I am a 21 year old man and I still have not been taught to do these things properly... curse being raised mostly by my mom.

I have to get my dad to teach me this stuff before I leave for med school...

At the very least, be able to check your fluid levels, the state of your oil, and change a tire.

The only time I ever really change my oil or bleed the brakes is if the car sees a racetrack. Not having a covered garage sucks.

 

[lacrosse87]

I helped my friend change his tire in a parking lot the other day. I was a bit surprised he didn't know how... considering he's a huge buff manly man. My supreme testosterone levels pitied him... at least during those 5 minutes.

I'm a 24 year old guy, living in Philly the past 6 years and don't have a car and haven't really driven since high school.

Since my automechanic skills are obviously lacking, my measure of a man (or woman) is how they are in the gym. Kills me when someone opts to do ze biceptz curlz, reading on a treadmill, etc as opposed things like squats, cleans, deadlifts, burpees, pullups, and sprints/fartlek runs.

I like how we've all hijacked this thread

 

[poopyhead]

I would like to see more DO lead research programs

Mds have been very successful bc of research...

Most do schools lack labs..the population is also much smaller...and they will always be "under" bc of these...simply based on size and research

International Do PHYSCIAN schools should be set up to increasw enrollment and spread the philosophy

Myb2 cents

Well, some DO schools do a significant amount of research.

http://www.jaoa.org/content/107/11/469/T6.expansion.html

Granted things may have changed since 2004, but it shows that not all DO schools are devoid of research.

 

[DocEspana]

I could have gone md (3.25 gpa, 34T, well recognized achool) but not in an area id like. I'm far too into the northeast and no place is harder to match md than ny ct ma ri nj vt and philly... But thata all I applied to.

I preferred a DO school in that area over an MD school anywhere else given an honest evaluation of my geographic biases. But I'm one person in a sea of people whose stories all count towafrds the trend.

 

[se20001984]

Id also like...as it seems most of the public is unaware of DOs for the most part,,,

that they can simple start with TV commercials to educate the public

follow my easy steps..and in 5 years DOs will outperform MDs

1. research
2. increase student/international population
3. increase aoa specific res programs
4. education of the public

 

[se20001984]

..i also think the research data is also kinda misleadin...

 

[Spatula]

.

 

[se20001984]

are you crazy?!
the only reason medicine has been so successfull in the past century +..and the reason you are applying today is because of research

 

[Total180]

To the poster who talked about the difference between DO medical students and MD medical students, I think you are generalizing a bit too much, however I see where you are coming from. The fact that DO schools allow grade replacement gives a little bit of leeway for the career changers/people who didn't know they wanted to go into medicine when they first went to college. Sometimes these people didn't get amazing grades because it didn't really matter for what they wanted to do. I think in that regard DO schools might have a few more people with diverse backgrounds. This is NOT saying that all MD students are socially inept whereas all DO students are non-traditional career changers who initially didn't do well in school, and have more life experiences. However, before applying to medical school I worked in a research lab at a big medical university (MD) and interacted with a lot of their medical students, and most of them were on the traditional high school-->college--->med school route. After interviewing at both MD and DO schools I met far more non-traditional applicants at DO interviews, and at my school we have A LOT of career changers/older students.

I, personally, love the fact that there are so many different kinds of people in my class, and we all learn from each other because of everyone's different backgrounds. I am proud to be a DO student not because of OMM or the fact that we are "special" but because DO schools, in general, take a chance on people who they think would be good physicians, which sometimes gives people a little leeway in the admissions process. I am proud of the fact that numbers don't mean everything to DO schools, and that a lot of the students in osteopathic institutions might never have had the chance to become physicians, just because of their grades/MCAT....and almost all of them do just fine in medical schools, on boards, on rotations, during residency, and in their practice as attendings.

 

[p1acebo]

Research.

Encourage all of your fellow students to get involved in it. Research = Recognition.

 

[Dharma]

To the poster who talked about the difference between DO medical students and MD medical students, I think you are generalizing a bit too much, however I see where you are coming from. The fact that DO schools allow grade replacement gives a little bit of leeway for the career changers/people who didn't know they wanted to go into medicine when they first went to college. Sometimes these people didn't get amazing grades because it didn't really matter for what they wanted to do. I think in that regard DO schools might have a few more people with diverse backgrounds. This is NOT saying that all MD students are socially inept whereas all DO students are non-traditional career changers who initially didn't do well in school, and have more life experiences. However, before applying to medical school I worked in a research lab at a big medical university (MD) and interacted with a lot of their medical students, and most of them were on the traditional high school-->college--->med school route. After interviewing at both MD and DO schools I met far more non-traditional applicants at DO interviews, and at my schools we have A LOT of career changers/older students. I, personally, love the fact that there are so many different kinds of people in my class, and we all learn from each other because of everyone's different backgrounds. I am proud to be a DO student not because of OMM or the fact that we are "special" but because DO schools, in general, take a chance on people who they think would be good physicians, which sometimes gives people a little leeway in the admissions process. I am proud of the fact that numbers don't mean everything to DO schools, and that a lot of the students in osteopathic institutions might never have had the chance to become physicians, just because of their grades/MCAT....and almost all of them do just fine in medical schools, on boards, on rotations, during residency, and in their practice as attendings.

how about a few separate paragraphs? (Sorry it's a pet peeve).

 

[Dharma]

are you crazy?!
the only reason medicine has been so successfull in the past century +..and the reason you are applying today is because of research

True. However most of that research was performed by non-MD/DO PhD's.

 

[Kevin Baker]

So yeah, I'm not proud to be a DO because there is nothing to be proud about as a DO.

Come on now. There is a ton of stuff to be proud of as a DO. Look at our rich history. From being the first mainstream medical group to look at causes of disease rather than treating the effects, to being the first major medical group to include women in our ranks, to being one of two medical professions to survive the Flexner era, to the successful integration of pharmacology and policies anathema to osteopathy's founding principles into our curriculum, to our group's historic overrepresentation in underserved areas and in undermanned specialties, and to our ability to provide a training alternative to the MD world. While the ACGME was acting as a licensure cartel many decades ago, DO leadership stepped in to fill the gap. Even now, with a looming shortage of docs and with the allopathic world missing their goal of 30% increased enrollment by 2015, the DO world stepped up with 12 new schools and increased class sizes.

I wouldn't argue practice vastly differs between DOs and MDs, nor would I argue either side has little to be proud of. But DO's have a rich and strong history to be proud of.

 

[poopyhead]

After interviewing at both MD and DO schools I met far more non-traditional applicants at DO interviews, and at my schools we have A LOT of career changers/older students. I, personally, love the fact that there are so many different kinds of people in my class, and we all learn from each other because of everyone's different backgrounds. I am proud to be a DO student not because of OMM or the fact that we are "special" but because DO schools, in general, take a chance on people who they think would be good physicians, which sometimes gives people a little leeway in the admissions process. I am proud of the fact that numbers don't mean everything to DO schools, and that a lot of the students in osteopathic institutions might never have had the chance to become physicians, just because of their grades/MCAT....and almost all of them do just fine in medical schools, on boards, on rotations, during residency, and in their practice as attendings.

bolded = most important factor for me 👍

What is the big deal with research? How does its presence improve my medical school education?

Research is critical to improving medicine. High impact, published research can only serve to improve a school's reputation, especially among academic institutions.

 

[DrBowtie]

Come on now. There is a ton of stuff to be proud of as a DO. Look at our rich history. From being the first mainstream medical group to look at causes of disease rather than treating the effects, to being the first major medical group to include women in our ranks, to being one of two medical professions to survive the Flexner era, to the successful integration of pharmacology and policies anathema to osteopathy's founding principles into our curriculum, to our group's historic overrepresentation in underserved areas and in undermanned specialties, and to our ability to provide a training alternative to the MD world. While the ACGME was acting as a licensure cartel many decades ago, DO leadership stepped in to fill the gap. Even now, with a looming shortage of docs and with the allopathic world missing their goal of 30% increased enrollment by 2015, the DO world stepped up with 12 new schools and increased class sizes.

I wouldn't argue practice vastly differs between DOs and MDs, nor would I argue either side has little to be proud of. But DO's have a rich and strong history to be proud of.

You should work for the AOA. Your spin is amazing.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Research.

Encourage all of your fellow students to get involved in it. Research = Recognition.

DO schools need to:
A) Become stronger research power houses.
B) Develop better rotation sites/ teaching hospitals.
C) Begin to alter their curriculum and only teach practical OMM and for a single year tops.
D) Institutionalize the USMLE and do away with the COMLEX.
E) Potentially begin processes in which the school can be dual accreditated with LCME as well as COCA.
F) MD-DO?

;I.e become MD schools .

 

[Iliketoytles]

I like turtles.

 

[TeamZissou]

Even now, with a looming shortage of docs and with the allopathic world missing their goal of 30% increased enrollment by 2015, the DO world stepped up with 12 new schools and increased class sizes.

You've got to be kidding me. You think either the AOA or the ACGME are opening new schools to prevent a "shortage"? They aren't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, it's all about money and the "shortage" (while plausible) is just a means to achieving their end.

 

[lacrosse87]

I like turtles.

This thread blows

 

[deleted245139]

You've got to be kidding me. You think either the AOA or the ACGME are opening new schools to prevent a "shortage"? They aren't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, it's all about money and the "shortage" (while plausible) is just a means to achieving their end.

not to mention the lack of new (quality) GME spots to accommodate the increased numbers. They just continue to widen one end of the pipeline. It's going to bite the AOA in the next few graduate cycles....

correction: it's going to bite the students.

 

[Kevin Baker]

You've got to be kidding me. You think either the AOA or the ACGME are opening new schools to prevent a "shortage"? They aren't doing this out of the kindness of their hearts, it's all about money and the "shortage" (while plausible) is just a means to achieving their end.

Why can't it be both? Or why can't it just be for the money? The AOA saw an opportunity to open schools and increase class sizes. Notice the expansion didn't explode until after the ACGME made their 30% recommendation.

Without this shortage, there'd be (and to a degree, currently is) mass hysteria over devaluing of the degree. But with this shortage, the criticism is more tempered and the AOA can play the altruistic card of addressing a shortage while racking in member fees from the new class of DOs.

 

[TeamZissou]

Why can't it be both? Or why can't it just be for the money? The AOA saw an opportunity to open schools and increase class sizes. Notice the expansion didn't explode until after the ACGME made their 30% recommendation.

Without this shortage, there'd be (and to a degree, currently is) mass hysteria over devaluing of the degree. But with this shortage, the criticism is more tempered and the AOA can play the altruistic card of addressing a shortage while racking in member fees from the new class of DOs.

That's what I'm trying to say. I have a feeling there won't be nearly the "shortage" that is predicted. Though it does make a nice excuse to open up a ton of new schools and increase class sizes. Oh yeah and then why isn't there more residency funding? Hmmm well I suppose luring in students with 300K of loans just to be funneled into primary care is one way to get people to take those residencies going unfilled. Sure isn't doing the students any service though.

 

[Rollo]

Come on now. There is a ton of stuff to be proud of as a DO. Look at our rich history. From being the first mainstream medical group to look at causes of disease rather than treating the effects, to being the first major medical group to include women in our ranks, to being one of two medical professions to survive the Flexner era, to the successful integration of pharmacology and policies anathema to osteopathy's founding principles into our curriculum, to our group's historic overrepresentation in underserved areas and in undermanned specialties, and to our ability to provide a training alternative to the MD world. While the ACGME was acting as a licensure cartel many decades ago, DO leadership stepped in to fill the gap. Even now, with a looming shortage of docs and with the allopathic world missing their goal of 30% increased enrollment by 2015, the DO world stepped up with 12 new schools and increased class sizes.

I wouldn't argue practice vastly differs between DOs and MDs, nor would I argue either side has little to be proud of. But DO's have a rich and strong history to be proud of.

You should have been a history teacher.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

DO schools need to:
A) Become stronger research power houses.
B) Develop better rotation sites/ teaching hospitals.
C) Begin to alter their curriculum and only teach practical OMM and for a single year tops.
D) Institutionalize the USMLE and do away with the COMLEX.
E) Potentially begin processes in which the school can be dual accreditated with LCME as well as COCA.
F) MD-DO?

;I.e become MD schools .

Hmm... perhaps someday DO schools will become medical schools offering an "MD/DO" dual degree program for those genuinely interested in osteopathic medicine, and only those interested in this dual degree will take OMM after the first year. And perhaps osteopathic residencies will be limited to specialties in which OMM can be applied extensively, and only MD/DO dual degree grads would be able to apply.

Sorry guys, but I believe that accepting "MD reject backup planners" and calling them osteopaths isn't doing the osteopathic medical profession any good if they are the type of osteopaths who plan to say goodbye to OMM after medical school and forget they ever took it. Give all grads an MD. Give the DO only to those who really want it.

 

[p1acebo]

Hmm... perhaps someday DO schools will become medical schools offering an "MD/DO" dual degree program for those genuinely interested in osteopathic medicine, and only those interested in this dual degree will take OMM after the first year. And perhaps osteopathic residencies will be limited to specialties in which OMM can be applied extensively, and only MD/DO dual degree grads would be able to apply.

Sorry guys, but I believe that accepting "MD reject backup planners" and calling them osteopaths isn't doing the osteopathic medical profession any good if they are the type of osteopaths who plan to say goodbye to OMM after medical school and forget they ever took it. Give all grads an MD. Give the DO only to those who really want it.

I don't think it's that simple, especially considering there is more to being an osteopathic physician than just OMM. I think people take different things from OMM and progress as a physician in different ways.

I would think most "MD reject backup planners" tend to go to the Caribbean anyways. People I have spoke to that decide to apply to both just want to be a doctor, even if they like the osteopathic philosophy (it's just not a deciding factor for everyone). I decided to attend a DO school because I thought my school would train me to be the best physician that I could be (base hospital options, clinical exposure, more patient exposure than most schools, etc).

 

[ISUBird100]

Id also like...as it seems most of the public is unaware of DOs for the most part,,,

that they can simple start with TV commercials to educate the public

follow my easy steps..and in 5 years DOs will outperform MDs

1. research
2. increase student/international population
3. increase aoa specific res programs
4. education of the public

They actually had a commercial on the other day promoting one of our areas' hospitals. Of the five doctors they had on there, two of them were D.O.'s. This was in the Chicagoland area, which is in CCOM's own backyard. I just thought it was cool to see the commercial and how the gap has narrowed between the two degrees.

 

[aSagacious]

They actually had a commercial on the other day promoting one of our areas' hospitals. Of the five doctors they had on there, two of them were D.O.'s. This was in the Chicagoland area, which is in CCOM's own backyard. I just thought it was cool to see the commercial and how the gap has narrowed between the two degrees.

Yeah, and med school classes also look exactly like this 🙄:

 

[p1acebo]

Haha, of course MSUCOM. Hey buddy, those are REAL medical students doing REAL medicine in that picture. Come on now.

Yeah, and med school classes also look exactly like this 🙄:

 

[aSagacious]

Haha, of course MSUCOM. Hey buddy, those are REAL medical students doing REAL medicine in that picture. Come on now.

😛 I know that (I was an MSU undergrad and was accepted to their program). I was trying to make the point that you should not listen to anything the media portrays as reality. Is the MSUCOM class that diverse in real life? No way.

 

[p1acebo]

😛 I know that (I was an MSU undergrad and was accepted to their program). I was trying to make the point that you should not listen to anything the media portrays as reality. Is the MSUCOM class that diverse in real life? No way.

Actually, I am pretty impressed with our diversity. There are a lot of people from different backgrounds from my class at least.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hmm... perhaps someday DO schools will become medical schools offering an "MD/DO" dual degree program for those genuinely interested in osteopathic medicine, and only those interested in this dual degree will take OMM after the first year. And perhaps osteopathic residencies will be limited to specialties in which OMM can be applied extensively, and only MD/DO dual degree grads would be able to apply.

Sorry guys, but I believe that accepting "MD reject backup planners" and calling them osteopaths isn't doing the osteopathic medical profession any good if they are the type of osteopaths who plan to say goodbye to OMM after medical school and forget they ever took it. Give all grads an MD. Give the DO only to those who really want it.

They also don't want to be ostepaths... they want to be doctors and practice medicine, not be martyrs for A.T Still.

 

[Iliketoytles]

They also don't want to be ostepaths... they want to be doctors and practice medicine, not be martyrs for A.T Still.

👍