DOs Residency Merger with ACGME

[Ioannes Paulus]

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...urriculum-reorganization_s-kruse.pdf?sfvrsn=0

If that is the case it was probably more like CU having a down year because the 2014 and 2015 average for RVU was 219 and 220 respectively and CU has been averaging in the mid 220s

You weren't reading that chart correctly. When it said "2015" it referred to the Graduating Class of 2015 not the actual average for test takers in 2015. So the average that you reported was, if my math is correct, 2 years old, at least.
How can they know the average fortest takers in 2015 when the presentation was made in early 2014?
Students at RVU take the USMLE right after OMSII so, that "2015" number that you reported was the average for their school during 2013.

Everyone, please be more careful when citing sources.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[IslandStyle808]

But...the money....

Make it a shorter pass/fail (no score) exam and cost the same. They won't care then.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Actually depends on how you look at it. The match rate for DOs in the allopathic match has been 70-80 percent in recent years. And since all residency programs will now have that accreditation there is an argument to be made that the match rate will increase.

I think kenjix is referring to the overall match rate with both AOA and ACGME as is. Once these two matches combined, there will be the loss of AOA spots transferring over and certain programs taking MD AMGs over DO students. This may lower the match rate somewhat, but placement might still be the same (well that is if the PD overlords pity these students).

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

I think kenjix is referring to the overall match rate with both AOA and ACGME as is. Once these two matches combined, there will be the loss of AOA spots transferring over and certain programs taking MD AMGs over DO students. This may lower the match rate somewhat, but placement might still be the same (well that is if the PD overlords pity these students).

I don't think pity has much to do with it. There will be excess spots or not. I think individual schools' OPTIs will be the most beneficial thing.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

I don't think pity has much to do with it. There will be excess spots or not. I think individual schools' OPTIs will be the most beneficial thing.

The question that I am trying to figure out is how the merger will affect OPTIs in general and schools' affiliation with OPTIs. For instance, if a school 'creates' ~80 spots through an OPTI, how will they maintain these in the future?

 

[235009]

I'd be surprised if any DO school could average above 220 if all of their students take comlex - unless they are teaching straight to the usmle which I know of at least one DO school that does that.

The 230 MD average is skewed a bit by the top 30 ish schools that have 240 averages and such. I heard anecdotally one year that hopkins average was like 244 ( no proof though)

The average is not skewed. At my med school (ranked in the 50s) our step 1 average was 230+ ....and that was 5 years ago. Since then prep materials have continued to get better and the overall average has continued to creep up. The "top" med schools routinely have averages in the 240s now.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

The average is not skewed. At my med school (ranked in the 50s) our step 1 average was 230+ ....and that was 5 years ago. Since then prep materials have continued to get better and the overall average has continued to creep up. The "top" med schools routinely have averages in the 240s now.

Yeah... but you forgot to mention you went to one of the Caribbean schools that give you a full summer (2-3 months) to prepare for your USMLE (compared to the 4-6 weeks most schools here get), make you take a mock STEP one you must pass with flying colors in order to actually sit for the USMLE, and make you take a Kaplan course in Miami or wherever the hell they do their "fifth semester" system... which is essentially an ENTIRE SEMESTER of REVIEW.

Sooo... I wouldn't really say that your med school (ranked in the 50s) is a good representation of a program compared to ones in the states... DO or MD alike.

No disrespect.. just calling it like I see it.

 

[235009]

Yeah... but you forgot to mention you went to one of the Caribbean schools that give you a full summer (2-3 months) to prepare for your USMLE (compared to the 4-6 weeks most schools here get), make you take a mock STEP one you must pass with flying colors in order to actually sit for the USMLE, and make you take a Kaplan course in Miami or wherever the hell they do their "fifth semester" system.

Sooo... I wouldn't really say that your med school (ranked in the 50s) is a good representation of a program compared to ones in the states... DO or MD alike.

It is what it is tho.

wtf are you talking about?

I went to Stony Brook. Last time I checked Long Island is not in the Caribbean. Also none of the caribbean med schools are ranked by US News.

EDIT: you seem to be a really terrible detective, Alonzo

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

wtf are you talking about?

I went to Stony Brook. Last time I checked Long Island is not in the Caribbean. Also none of the caribbean med schools are ranked by US News.

LOLLLL my bad. I was talking about the argus! I figured you and him were IMG buddies for some strange reason.

 

[IslandStyle808]

LOL

 

[jw3600]

The average is not skewed. At my med school (ranked in the 50s) our step 1 average was 230+ ....and that was 5 years ago. Since then prep materials have continued to get better and the overall average has continued to creep up. The "top" med schools routinely have averages in the 240s now.

I have never really seen published averages for school. Is there a source floating around?

 

[235009]

I have never really seen published averages for school. Is there a source floating around?

No. Word of mouth. The school communicates averages to the students though.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

No. Word of mouth. The school communicates averages to the students though.

I knew MeatTornado was a Caribbean grad lol jk jk


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Brorthopedic]

No. Word of mouth. The school communicates averages to the students though.

lol

 

[kenjixshadow]

@MeatTornado I see that you spend so much time in DO threads, much more than most DOs here. Forget the IMGs, do you want to be friends with DOs? We can build a snow man or eat meats, lots of meats -- whichever you're into.

 

[Mad Jack]

wtf are you talking about?

I went to Stony Brook. Last time I checked Long Island is not in the Caribbean. Also none of the caribbean med schools are ranked by US News.

EDIT: you seem to be a really terrible detective, Alonzo

He can't tell one ****ty island from another

 

[SLC]

@MeatTornado I see that you spend so much time in DO threads, much more than most DOs here. Forget the IMGs, do you want to be friends with DOs? We can build a snow man or eat meats, lots of meats -- whichever you're into.

I think MT needs an occipital release, what do you think?

 

[Mad Jack]

Except we still aren't considered as equals, and now we won't have our own programs.

You're all afraid of competition and the competent amongst us are just all

 

[kenjixshadow]

You're all afraid of competition and the competent amongst us are just all
View attachment 202335

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I figured the constant negative and demeaning attitude exuded by tornado on the DO forums was cause of his displeasure and self esteem issues being an IMG like his bff Argus. They are both residents that constantly like ****ting on DOs on here. My bad bruh.

 

[GUH]

You're all afraid of competition and the competent amongst us are just all
View attachment 202335

Nope. Just not oblivious to the fact that we gave up something for nothing.

 

[Mad Jack]

Nope. Just not oblivious to the fact that we gave up something for nothing.

Except we did give it up for something- to retain our ability to enter ACGME fellowships, to have our standards brought up to par, and to be able to come on as ACGME PDs. I think that trade was more than worth it.

 

[GUH]

Except we did give it up for something- to retain our ability to enter ACGME fellowships, to have our standards brought up to par, and to be able to come on as ACGME PDs. I think that trade was more than worth it.

We had the ability to enter into ACGME fellowships, their threat to exclude AOA-trained DOs was used as a club to force the AOA to give up its GME. And guess what? Even after the GME takeover is complete, it will still only be ACGME-trained DOs who will be allowed to go on to ACGME fellowships. So nothing there changed. Even that doesn't matter if a DO can't match to a residency in his desired specialty to begin with.
There are low-quality residency programs in both the AOA and the ACGME. There is no real evidence that AOA-trained DOs were in any way inferior.
Becoming an ACGME PD doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of DOs.

 

[Mad Jack]

We had the ability to enter into ACGME fellowships, their threat to exclude AOA-trained DOs was used as a club to force the AOA to give up its GME.
There are low-quality residency programs in both the AOA and the ACGME. There is no real evidence that AOA-trained DOs were in any way inferior.
Becoming an ACGME PD doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of DOs.

Now maybe those who want to eliminate the osteopathic profession could try to buy out someone (or a group of people) who already hold(s) a position, but no organization is going to promote someone up the ladder who openly wants to destroy it.

Losing a handful of competitive specialty spots will affect far fewer DOs than the number of DOs that would have lost ACGME fellowship opportunities.

As to the people who want to merge the professions that I've met and known, none of them are open about it. They'll move on the leadership slowly, and one day without warning, there's going to be a judo flip of epic proportions in the upper leadership. You can't oppose >90% of those within your profession forever. Hell, it could actually reach the point where practicing DOs file a class-action lawsuit against the AOA claiming they no longer represent the interests of DOs- such a move is completely legally possible and feasible, and could be used to create a new governing body that actually represents the interests of the average DO.

 

[GUH]

Losing a handful of competitive specialty spots will affect far fewer DOs than the number of DOs that would have lost ACGME fellowship opportunities.

As to the people who want to merge the professions that I've met and known, none of them are open about it. They'll move on the leadership slowly, and one day without warning, there's going to be a judo flip of epic proportions in the upper leadership. You can't oppose >90% of those within your profession forever. Hell, it could actually reach the point where practicing DOs file a class-action lawsuit against the AOA claiming they no longer represent the interests of DOs- such a move is completely legally possible and feasible, and could be used to create a new governing body that actually represents the interests of the average DO.

If you think the AOA doesn't represent the interests of DOs, then what organization does?
Please don't say the ACGME or the AMA. I wouldn't be able to take that answer seriously.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you think the AOA doesn't represent the interests of DOs, then what organization does?
Please don't say the ACGME or the AMA. I wouldn't be able to take that answer seriously.

No organization does, that's why there will eventually be a change of tides at the AOA level. If our professions were to merge, well, then the ACGME/LCME would actually represent our interests.

 

[GUH]

No organization does, that's why there will eventually be a change of tides at the AOA level. If our professions were to merge, well, then the ACGME/LCME would actually represent our interests.

The ACGME has never represented the best interests of DOs. And the AMA has historically tried to stamp us out of existence. They have a long way to go before they become credible as supporters of DOs, and forcing the AOA to give up its residency positions while refusing to lift a finger to counter the inferior treatment of DOs by those within their ranks does nothing to reverse that perception.

On the other hand, the AOA is the organization that pushed to legalize DOs to begin with. They're not perfect, but they beat the hell out of the AMA or ACGME in their history of working for, not against, DOs.

 

[Mad Jack]

The ACGME has never represented the best interests of DOs. And the AMA has historically tried to stamp us out of existence. They have a long way to go before they become credible as supporters of DOs, and forcing the AOA to give up its residency positions while refusing to lift a finger to counter the inferior treatment of DOs by those within their ranks does nothing to reverse that perception.

On the other hand, the AOA is the organization that pushed to legalize DOs to begin with. They're not perfect, but they beat the hell out of the AMA or ACGME in their history of working for, not against, DOs.

My point is, if the systems merged and the DO degree were phased out and we were then all MDs, it wouldn't matter. They would represent the interests of our schools because we would become their schools. I don't get how that's so astoundingly difficult for you to understand.

 

[ButterButter]

The AOA tries very hard to maintain a distinction between DOs and MDs, but in truth, the line is too thin to actually justify the perpetuation of the AOA in its current state. It'll be interesting to see how the AOA evolves as its leadership changes to reflect the younger generation of practicing DOs.

 

[GUH]

My point is, if the systems merged and the DO degree were phased out and we were then all MDs, it wouldn't matter. They would represent the interests of our schools because we would become their schools. I don't get how that's so astoundingly difficult for you to understand.

Why should someone who has not earned an MD degree be awarded an MD degree? And what makes you think that the MDs would ever agree to it?

 

[SLC]

Why should someone who has not earned an MD degree be awarded an MD degree? And what makes you think that the MDs would ever agree to it?

Tell me what the difference is between DO and MD curriculum wise these days?

 

[Mad Jack]

Why should someone who has not earned an MD degree be awarded an MD degree? And what makes you think that the MDs would ever agree to it?

It doesn't really matter- this would be for the benefit of future students at our alma mater schools, not ourselves. DOs would have permanently codified practice rights (since we've got 'em in all 50 states already) and new DOs would cease to be minted. We'd be a historical oddity with our unusual initials, but still have our full practice rights. And no one would ever have to worry about that DO stigma again moving forward. As to whether they would allow us to have the MD credentials- I think that, if our alma mater switched over the designation and we passed all three steps of the USMLE, they wouldn't mind us having it.

 

[deleted564680]

Tell me what the difference is between DO and MD curriculum wise these days?

DOs have OMM/OPP/OTM/OMT (Whatever you want to call it)
MDs have research

The rest is the same.


Also, I would never change my DO to an MD if ever asked/allowed. Just my opinion though.

 

[GUH]

Tell me what the difference is between DO and MD curriculum wise these days?

The curricula vary by school. I haven't been to an MD school so I wouldn't know.
What is the difference between DDS and DMD curriculum wise these days? Why is it so important to eliminate one degree anyways?

 

[SLC]

DOs have OMM/OPP/OTM/OMT (Whatever you want to call it)
MDs have research

The rest is the same.


Also, I would never change my DO to an MD if ever asked/allowed. Just my opinion though.

MD's offer research, DO's can too (where the funding is in place).

Eliminate OMM and you have the MD curriculum. Not difficult.

 

[Mad Jack]

DOs have OMM/OPP/OTM/OMT (Whatever you want to call it)
MDs have research

The rest is the same.


Also, I would never change my DO to an MD if ever asked/allowed. Just my opinion though.

Believe it or not a lot of DO schools also have research. We just don't get as much funding because the COCA doesn't require us to have as large of a basic science research staff. Less required staff=less overall productivity

 

[SLC]

The curricula vary by school. I haven't been to an MD school so I wouldn't know.
What is the difference between DDS and DMD curriculum wise these days? Why is it so important to eliminate one degree anyways?

There is no practical difference between DDS and DMD. They are for all intents and purposes identical.

It's important to get rid of the excuse for discriminating against a population of perfectly capable and fully qualified physicians in terms of residency opportunities. That's it.

 

[GUH]

It doesn't really matter- this would be for the benefit of future students at our alma mater schools, not ourselves. DOs would have permanently codified practice rights (since we've got 'em in all 50 states already) and new DOs would cease to be minted. We'd be a historical oddity with our unusual initials, but still have our full practice rights. And no one would ever have to worry about that DO stigma again moving forward. As to whether they would allow us to have the MD credentials- I think that, if our alma mater switched over the designation and we passed all three steps of the USMLE, they wouldn't mind us having it.

Then your school can make the decision. Why does it have to be forced on every school and everyone who aspires to be a DO?

 

[GUH]

It's important to get rid of the excuse for discriminating against a population of perfectly capable and fully qualified physicians in terms of residency opportunities. That's it.

That's a very reasonable argument. I believe that there are better ways of doing it (such as building and maintaining our own GME) but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Mad Jack]

Then your school can make the decision. Why does it have to be forced on every school and everyone who aspires to be a DO?

Why not? I mean, it really doesn't matter. You stay politically active and try to fight the tide I guess. I'll be watching carefully as people infiltrate the AOA leadership and put an end to something that should have been gone 50 years ago.

 

[22031 Alum]

Then your school can make the decision. Why does it have to be forced on every school and everyone who aspires to be a DO?

This isn't really my discussion, but this strikes me as hanging on to a difference for the sake of the difference and nothing else. I would hope your aspirations to be a physician, period, are the strongest thing. They could change the initials to "FU" and I'd show up to work with a smile on my face and a newly-embroidered coat, as long as I still got to do this job I love.

Edit: I don't wear a coat.

Edit: I also don't think the DO degree is actually disappearing any time soon.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Why should someone who has not earned an MD degree be awarded an MD degree? And what makes you think that the MDs would ever agree to it?

Because it happened in 1962 in California.

"The California Medical Association (CMA) issued MD degrees to all DOs in the state of California for a nominal fee. "By attending a short seminar and paying $65, a doctor of osteopathy (now Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) (DO) could obtain an MD degree; 86 percent of the DOs in the state (out of a total of about 2000) chose to do so."

 

[GUH]

Because it happened in 1962 in California.

Yes it did. However, it was not truly an equal MD degree as its holders were not allowed to use their MD outside of California.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Yes it did. However, it was not truly an equal MD degree as its holders were not allowed to use their MD outside of California.

Now you're just splitting hairs

 

[Mad Jack]

I think there's three kinds of DO students:

1- Wanted to be a DO, hard-core DO
2- Wanted to be an MD but will do whatever it takes to be a physician
3- Doesn't give a damn, just wants to be a physician

The 2s tend to split along two lines- the ones that have the massive chip on their shoulder and come off as MD-wannabes, and the ones that go super hardcore DO to overcompensate because they feel like they "owe the profession something for giving them a chance." Both types make me lol, as I'm a #3 myself- idgaf what degree I have, and I objectively honestly believe there is no reason for there to be 2 separate degrees. It's just kind of stupid.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes it did. However, it was not truly an equal MD degree as its holders were not allowed to use their MD outside of California.

Yeah, but if we made a nationwide deal, unlike the CA deal, that was a nationwide merger of the two accrediting bodies, it would be a nationwide credential.

 

[GUH]

Why not? I mean, it really doesn't matter. You stay politically active and try to fight the tide I guess. I'll be watching carefully as people infiltrate the AOA leadership and put an end to something that should have been gone 50 years ago.

I doubt it but wouldn't be terribly surprised if some DOs sold out to the AMA and imposed it on us.

This isn't really my discussion, but this strikes me as hanging on to a difference for the sake of the difference and nothing else. I would hope your aspirations to be a physician, period, are the strongest thing. They could change the initials to "FU" and I'd show up to work with a smile on my face and a newly-embroidered coat, as long as I still got to do this job I love.

Edit: I don't wear a coat.

Edit: I also don't think the DO degree is actually disappearing any time soon.

Yeah, I want to be a physician. And if my degree is changed to an MD I'll take it and still be grateful to be in an awesome career. But it would be nice to be able to retain the degree and professional affiliation that I sought out when applying to school and leave the door open for those behind me, just like an MD would most likely prefer the same for his degree. On a lesser note, I also think it's healthy that the AMA doesn't represent all of medicine in the United States.

 

[GUH]

Yeah, but if we made a nationwide deal, unlike the CA deal, that was a nationwide merger of the two accrediting bodies, it would be a nationwide credential.

You're assuming that such a deal could even be struck at the national level, which you and I disagree on. The DO is already a nationwide credential so keeping it as a separate degree would not recreate this issue.

If such a deal were somehow struck on a national level, then you would probably be correct.

 

[Mad Jack]

I doubt it but wouldn't be terribly surprised if some DOs sold out to the AMA and imposed it on us.

Yeah, I want to be a physician. And if my degree is changed to an MD I'll take it and still be grateful to be in an awesome career. But it would be nice to be able to retain the degree and professional affiliation that I sought out when applying to school and leave the door open for those behind me, just like an MD would most likely prefer the same for his degree. On a lesser note, I also think it's healthy that the AMA doesn't represent all of medicine in the United States.

The AMA doesn't accredit medical schools or residencies, nor do they represent all of medicine.

 

[Mad Jack]

You're assuming that such a deal could even be struck at the national level, which you and I disagree on. The DO is already a nationwide credential so keeping it as a separate degree would not recreate this issue.

If such a deal were somehow struck on a national level, then you would probably be correct.

I guarantee it will happen eventually. But like I said previously, probably not for 40+ years.