DO's, the second class citizen?

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These threads get old and pointless.

Fact: Many (not all) DO students applied to both MD and DO schools and were not good enough to get into MD schools.

Fact: DO schools are emerging because they fill a void that MD's don't want to do. Primary Care.

So, you will begin to see stratification of MD's and DO's, especially with more MD's being trained every year.

Patients who see family docs, IM docs etc... will notice more and more doctors with DO's.

While they will notice the "specialists" will mainly be MD's.

So in a sense, yes, DO's are the "second class doctors" by the very nature that they accept weaker applicants.

Now I anxiously await the liberals, democrats, feminists etc... to come in and say I'm wrong and point to John's brother's cousin's half-nephew who is a DO plastic surgeon.
 
roflcakes887 said:
These threads get old and pointless.

Fact: Many (not all) DO students applied to both MD and DO schools and were not good enough to get into MD schools.

Fact: DO schools are emerging because they fill a void that MD's don't want to do. Primary Care.

So, you will begin to see stratification of MD's and DO's, especially with more MD's being trained every year.

Patients who see family docs, IM docs etc... will notice more and more doctors with DO's.

While they will notice the "specialists" will mainly be MD's.

So in a sense, yes, DO's are the "second class doctors" by the very nature that they accept weaker applicants.

Now I anxiously await the liberals, democrats, feminists etc... to come in and say I'm wrong and point to John's brother's cousin's half-nephew who is a DO plastic surgeon.
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Do osteopathic students have seperate locker rooms and water fountains then MD's from where you come from as well?
 
Lokhtar said:
Anyone know why did 1/6 of the students not match? That number seems a little high.
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I'm wondering the same thing. I feel that either the number is off or could it be the other 40% went into the allopathic match? Or was this number with both matches combined?
 
roflcakes887 said:
These threads get old and pointless.

Fact: Many (not all) DO students applied to both MD and DO schools and were not good enough to get into MD schools.

Fact: DO schools are emerging because they fill a void that MD's don't want to do. Primary Care.

So, you will begin to see stratification of MD's and DO's, especially with more MD's being trained every year.

Patients who see family docs, IM docs etc... will notice more and more doctors with DO's.

While they will notice the "specialists" will mainly be MD's.

So in a sense, yes, DO's are the "second class doctors" by the very nature that they accept weaker applicants.

Now I anxiously await the liberals, democrats, feminists etc... to come in and say I'm wrong and point to John's brother's cousin's half-nephew who is a DO plastic surgeon.
Click to expand...

This thread is absurd and you know it.
 
roflcakes887 said:
Now I anxiously await the liberals, democrats, feminists etc... to come in and say I'm wrong and point to John's brother's cousin's half-nephew who is a DO plastic surgeon.
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Hey man all I would ask is that you give everyone a fair shot before shooting them down when you're a doctor....regardless of IMG/DO/MD. Last thing I would want is a future MD already in the mindset that the "others" are inferior or poor clinicians....
 
The ignore option is a wonderful thing.
 
nlax30 said:
You know what they say when you assume......



Anyway, I do think this thread has pretty much run its course, finally.
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On that note, I want to thank all my DO brothers/sisters and future colleagues for your continued excellence that has enabled me to become a physician, and I aspire to do all I can to uphold the hard work that has been done.
 
Buckeye(OH) said:
The stigma exists. I was rotating at Cook County Hospital where the Rush attendings often do their clinic cases. I was told by a particular Rush attending that he does not take "alternative students." After he saw how well I could "toe in" a retractor, he had no problem letting me throw some one hand ties. It was still a little slap in the face but I THRIVE on being the underdog.
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Ditto. For my undergrad, I was accepted as a Computer Science student. Looking around the room, I realized who I would potentially be working with for the rest of my life...I decided to switch out to Information Tech and be working with people who are more like me instead.

I have since been doing CS-type programming projects for our hospital's ED that our CS programmers have not able to do. Also, when demoing the work, the founder (an MD) of a major ED software product thought that the work that I did rivaled his most advanced programmers.

It is also ironic that now that it's inevitable that I am leaving, the company that I work for didn't find a programmer to replace my position. They were going to do it a different way even though I explained why that probably wouldn't work...at all....A few weeks ago, they found out exactly why it wouldn't work :laugh:

For me, it was about following my dreams and working in an environment where I would be happiest. CS wasn't for me...

The osteo vs allo world feels the same way. The allo's attitude (esp pre-med/med student) is childish. For example, osteos and allos work in the ED together...there is a good possibility that one day an osteo may have to save an allo's life (eg, trauma). Does it make any sense to disrespect a fellow employee in that circumstance?

The allo's may snub you, but if and when you're good (which you would be regardless!) it will be instantly recognizable regardless of your degree. If anything, sometimes that underdog component even helps. It's a natural self-motivator for you to keep pushing yourself. And it even serves as a way to stand out in a sea of traditional guys - you are the guy who stands out just a bit even though you are more than capable.
 
Jesus f***....

...yeah...those attitudes are exactly why I NEVER WANT TO BE in an allo medical school.

Osteo for me baby and best of luck to all of my future colleagues!!! 👍👍👍

LOL, anyway, back to logical points and opinions...
 
mentulbloc80 said:
And to J1515, since I think you are a NYCOM student...Ask how many students at NYCOM went unmatched this year....drumroll....

49

Nearly 50 people out of 300. 1 out of 6 did not match. Osteopathic students in the DO match this year: 40% did not match.

Continue to hold onto your pipe dreams about NYC chief you are in for some real heartbreak. As a heads up google "Freida." This will pull up a search engine for all MD residency programs in the country. Find the big 5 hospitals (NYU, Monte, Columbia, Cornell, Mt Sinai) and see how many have DO's in there medicine program. Let everyone know what you find, because apparently I am very ignorant.
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I tend not to agree with J1515 on much, but on this one J1515 and I are in accord.

I cannot believe the arrogance and stupidity of this anti-DO poster. How insecure is he/she with themselves to spend this amount of time fighting with students in a DO forum. What a joke.

I cant believe this person is going to be issued a medical license one day.
Im sure mentulbloc80 will score 260+ on USMLE (just like they scored a 40 on the MCAT), land a sweet "city" specialty residency at MD HARVARD MD or prestigious X, and then still suck at life and more importantly suck at being a physician; b/c clearly they are more concerned with how amazing their title/ reputation/residency/ect is than anything else in this world. Pathetic.

One of the many downfalls in medicine is - that this person got into medical school over 1000 other people that would have made twice the doctor he/she will. What a joke and embarrassment to his/her peers. People are sick of these type of students and doctors (MD and DO) who think they are gods gift of intelligence to the world and look down on anyone that cannot not compare to their life; which they are clearly insecure with to begin with. There is no place in medicine for this person. You would have made a great lawyer.
What a joke :laugh:

Thank you for banning them; can you CLOSE THIS FORUM. Its out of hand.
A proud DO to be
 
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nevinleiby said:
Jesus f***....

...yeah...those attitudes are exactly why I NEVER WANT TO BE in an allo medical school.

Osteo for me baby and best of luck to all of my future colleagues!!! 👍👍👍

LOL, anyway, back to logical points and opinions...
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I'd take it as a person by person basis. There are thousands of humble, cool people at allo schools, just like there are thousands of immature, gunner d-bags at DO schools. It's a generalization to say, in my opinion, that all allos act like the small number of crazy MD/pre-MD students on SDN.
 
as a future MD, I feel like one out to exhibit respect for all peers and allied health professional.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I'd take it as a person by person basis. There are thousands of humble, cool people at allo schools, just like there are thousands of immature, gunner d-bags at DO schools. It's a generalization to say, in my opinion, that all allos act like the small number of crazy MD/pre-MD students on SDN.
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Jag, if there's thousands of gunner d-bags at DO schools, that about covers all of us. :meanie:
 
JaggerPlate said:
I'd take it as a person by person basis. There are thousands of humble, cool people at allo schools, just like there are thousands of immature, gunner d-bags at DO schools. It's a generalization to say, in my opinion, that all allos act like the small number of crazy MD/pre-MD students on SDN.
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Handy388 said:
as a future MD, I feel like one out to exhibit respect for all peers and allied health professional.
Click to expand...

True, I've just had an overwhelmingly negative experience so far at my school and on my interviews. Probably in the neighborhood of 12 vs 1-2 that were friendly, helpful, sincerely, and just decent people. I've seen some of those pre-allos that I've mentioned do some downright self-serving despicable acts 😡. In my experience, the pre-osteos have tended to be very different in that respect. I respect allo's in general, but I feel that mutual respect rarely occurs.

Although it certainly would not happen, I wished that all health professionals respected each other. But there will always be a Housestaff < Security < LPN < RN < PA / NP < DO/IMG/FMG < MD and that frequently carries over into not respecting other colleagues. To me that is very upsetting in part because the patient often is among those in the ranking and frequently near the bottom.

Futhermore, people chose professions often because of their interests, opportunities, parents, education, and unfortunately it is often closely associated with their wealth and class. The patients that a physician treats should never be any lesser just because that didn't attend medical school. They simply had/chose a different path in life. Some may have been more intelligent, others may have been more caring/compassionate, while others could have been more thorough and hard working. A good number of them could have easily outpaced many of the top physicians. Others, with the ability and the opportunity, made the intelligent rationalization that becoming a physician isn't necessarily a great idea.

Given the opportunity, I would much rather be a part of an organization that tends to value others as equals rather than subordinates or inferiors.
 
More like 3rd-class citizens. At my school, the md's have separate water fountains, and they dispense fine wine. And we're a do school, with only like one md who is full-time faculty.
 
nevinleiby said:
True, I've just had an overwhelmingly negative experience so far at my school and on my interviews. Probably in the neighborhood of 12 vs 1-2 that were friendly, helpful, sincerely, and just decent people. I've seen some of those pre-allos that I've mentioned do some downright self-serving despicable acts 😡. In my experience, the pre-osteos have tended to be very different in that respect. I respect allo's in general, but I feel that mutual respect rarely occurs.

Although it certainly would not happen, I wished that all health professionals respected each other. But there will always be a Housestaff < Security < LPN < RN < PA / NP < DO/IMG/FMG < MD and that frequently carries over into not respecting other colleagues. To me that is very upsetting in part because the patient often is among those in the ranking and frequently near the bottom.

Futhermore, people chose professions often because of their interests, opportunities, parents, education, and unfortunately it is often closely associated with their wealth and class. The patients that a physician treats should never be any lesser just because that didn't attend medical school. They simply had/chose a different path in life. Some may have been more intelligent, others may have been more caring/compassionate, while others could have been more thorough and hard working. A good number of them could have easily outpaced many of the top physicians. Others, with the ability and the opportunity, made the intelligent rationalization that becoming a physician isn't necessarily a great idea.

Given the opportunity, I would much rather be a part of an organization that tends to value others as equals rather than subordinates or inferiors.
Click to expand...

I heard that some DO students can be pretty disrespectful toward some allied health professionals. This is exacerbated by the fact that many DO students are trained along with allied health professionals while MD schools usually just have MD students to themselves.
 
Handy388 said:
I heard that some DO students can be pretty disrespectful toward some allied health professionals. This is exacerbated by the fact that many DO students are trained along with allied health professionals while MD schools usually just have MD students to themselves.
Click to expand...
This isn't exclusive to osteopathic medicine.
 
Handy388 said:
I heard that some DO students can be pretty disrespectful toward some allied health professionals. This is exacerbated by the fact that many DO students are trained along with allied health professionals while MD schools usually just have MD students to themselves.
Click to expand...

Well this is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Every part of it is false. First, of all how could anyone ever know if DO students are more or less disrespectful to allied health professionals than MD students? Secondly, teaching hospitals are teaching hospitals for every health professional. How are DO students trained along with allied health professional while MD students arent? Do you really beleive what you just said or are you just talking out of your *ss. Sometimes i wonder how future medical students can be so uneducated about the process of medical school education.
 
nevinleiby said:
True, I've just had an overwhelmingly negative experience so far at my school and on my interviews. Probably in the neighborhood of 12 vs 1-2 that were friendly, helpful, sincerely, and just decent people. I've seen some of those pre-allos that I've mentioned do some downright self-serving despicable acts 😡. In my experience, the pre-osteos have tended to be very different in that respect. I respect allo's in general, but I feel that mutual respect rarely occurs.

Although it certainly would not happen, I wished that all health professionals respected each other. But there will always be a Housestaff < Security < LPN < RN < PA / NP < DO/IMG/FMG < MD and that frequently carries over into not respecting other colleagues. To me that is very upsetting in part because the patient often is among those in the ranking and frequently near the bottom.

Futhermore, people chose professions often because of their interests, opportunities, parents, education, and unfortunately it is often closely associated with their wealth and class. The patients that a physician treats should never be any lesser just because that didn't attend medical school. They simply had/chose a different path in life. Some may have been more intelligent, others may have been more caring/compassionate, while others could have been more thorough and hard working. A good number of them could have easily outpaced many of the top physicians. Others, with the ability and the opportunity, made the intelligent rationalization that becoming a physician isn't necessarily a great idea.

Given the opportunity, I would much rather be a part of an organization that tends to value others as equals rather than subordinates or inferiors.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm officually glad you're going to my school, guy. Good show.

By the way, I watched The Diving Bell and the Butterfly this week, anyone else catch this movie? Wow... even bought the iTunes soundtrack afterwards. Check it out if you haven't heard of it, a stirring true story. Got me thinking about it Nevin, cause the therapists were the prime forces in this guy's life, not the neurologist - who'd pop in frustratingly for a moment or two and disappear.
 
WDeagle said:
Well this is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Every part of it is false. First, of all how could anyone ever know if DO students are more or less disrespectful to allied health professionals than MD students? Secondly, teaching hospitals are teaching hospitals for every health professional. How are DO students trained along with allied health professional while MD students arent? Do you really beleive what you just said or are you just talking out of your *ss. Sometimes i wonder how future medical students can be so uneducated about the process of medical school education.
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You sound very insecure.
 
Handy388 said:
I heard that some DO students can be pretty disrespectful toward some allied health professionals. This is exacerbated by the fact that many DO students are trained along with allied health professionals while MD schools usually just have MD students to themselves.
Click to expand...

lol, because MD students aren't disrespectful at all, right?
 
Handy388 said:
You sound very insecure.
Click to expand...

How am i being insecure by correcting your misinformation? Also, why would I(or anybody) be insecure that you said that DO students treat other health professionals poorly. I dont really see a scenario in which this could occur.
 
DO + USMLE 1 and 2 = MD. We love to say how we are equal to MDs. Well if we are really equal, don't want to do OMM and can pass the same boards, have the same hours of didactic and clinical education, we should be able to legally use the title MD.
We need state by state legislation. All it will take is for one state to get the ball rolling.
One MD resident once told me. Every time I see the letters DO on a jacket its always like "hmmmm". And went on to say its always a strike against credibility that must be overcome whereas MDs don't have to do this.
I personally am sick of these damn letters that have nothing to do with how I will practice.

And yes, I probably should have been more geographically flexible and expanded my allo applications but I didn't and at the time, like many DO students I don't think I fully understood the implications.
 
Fergison2 said:
DO + USMLE 1 and 2 = MD. We love to say how we are equal to MDs. Well if we are really equal, don't want to do OMM and can pass the same boards, have the same hours of didactic and clinical education, we should be able to legally use the title MD.
We need state by state legislation. All it will take is for one state to get the ball rolling.
One MD resident once told me. Every time I see the letters DO on a jacket its always like "hmmmm". And went on to say its always a strike against credibility that must be overcome whereas MDs don't have to do this.
I personally am sick of these damn letters that have nothing to do with how I will practice.

And yes, I probably should have been more geographically flexible and expanded my allo applications but I didn't and at the time, like many DO students I don't think I fully understood the implications.
Click to expand...

It is the institution that grants the degree so generally the state has nothing to do with it.

That said, I agree. There should be 1 degree and 1 governing body and 1 set of requirements a school should have to abide by.
 
Fergison2 said:
DO + USMLE 1 and 2 = MD. We love to say how we are equal to MDs. Well if we are really equal, don't want to do OMM and can pass the same boards, have the same hours of didactic and clinical education, we should be able to legally use the title MD.
We need state by state legislation. All it will take is for one state to get the ball rolling.
One MD resident once told me. Every time I see the letters DO on a jacket its always like "hmmmm". And went on to say its always a strike against credibility that must be overcome whereas MDs don't have to do this.
I personally am sick of these damn letters that have nothing to do with how I will practice.

And yes, I probably should have been more geographically flexible and expanded my allo applications but I didn't and at the time, like many DO students I don't think I fully understood the implications.
Click to expand...

I dont want to change the intials but if you do, here ya go

http://dotomd.com/home.cfm?CFID=13661119&CFTOKEN=50103965
 
Fergison2 said:
Thanks,

I know of that organization. I don't think we should have to pay 20K or go offshore to do this. We take and pass the same boards, and have the same amount of education. I'd rather not share initials with the craniosacral expert down the block.
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I was being sarcastic with that post but i think you got my point being that we do have the same education and pass the same boards therefore not needing anything else to justify what or who we are...doctors
 
SteelCity said:
I was being sarcastic with that post but i think you got my point being that we do have the same education and pass the same boards therefore not needing anything else to justify what or who we are...doctors
Click to expand...

I do get your point. However I personally plan on practicing Medicine as a Doctor, not Osteopathy. I have also taken USMLE1 and will take 2 as well. All I'm saying is that there should be a legitimate route, without having to go offshore and pay 20K for a DO who can pass the MD boards to use the title MD if he/she feels that this better represents his/her practice philosophy.

I also think that with legal action and sound argument based in length and content of education combined with passing the USMLE(s), that sate by state, this could be done.
If it were it would add Osteopathic applicants and strengthen our pool as it would provide a route for those who want to practice less Osteopathically, a route to MD and still would leave in place the route for those that want to keep the DO.
 
Fergison2 said:
I do get your point. However I personally plan on practicing Medicine as a Doctor, not Osteopathy. I have also taken USMLE1 and will take 2 as well. All I'm saying is that there should be a legitimate route, without having to go offshore and pay 20K for a DO who can pass the MD boards to use the title MD if he/she feels that this better represents his/her practice philosophy.

I also think that with legal action and sound argument based in length and content of education combined with passing the USMLE(s), that sate by state, this could be done.
If it were it would add Osteopathic applicants and strengthen our pool as it would provide a route for those who want to practice less Osteopathically, a route to MD and still would leave in place the route for those that want to keep the DO.
Click to expand...

Forgive me if im coming off as an ass, because those are not my intentions, but if you feel so strongly about it then why didnt you just go to a allo school? If you couldnt get in to the a US school, then there are some okay carribean ones out there too. 😕
 
Fergison2 said:
DO + USMLE 1 and 2 = MD. We love to say how we are equal to MDs. Well if we are really equal, don't want to do OMM and can pass the same boards, have the same hours of didactic and clinical education, we should be able to legally use the title MD.
We need state by state legislation. All it will take is for one state to get the ball rolling.
One MD resident once told me. Every time I see the letters DO on a jacket its always like "hmmmm". And went on to say its always a strike against credibility that must be overcome whereas MDs don't have to do this.
I personally am sick of these damn letters that have nothing to do with how I will practice.

And yes, I probably should have been more geographically flexible and expanded my allo applications but I didn't and at the time, like many DO students I don't think I fully understood the implications.
Click to expand...
👎 I just cannot understand sometimes how people can take on such a big life changing decision and not "fully understand the implications". All it takes is some simple research and discussion with those already involved in the profession. I am terribly sorry, I feel bad for you. Most of the physicians that consider the DO as a "second class profession" are old school, and frankly way back in the day the second class claim was not too far off base. I think that most MD's that have graduated the last 10 years or so have a different perspective because the DO profession has taken many strides toward excellence. If you need an example, MSUCOM is ranked ahead of its allopathic counterpart. Let's start a new thread based on interesting topics and use facts to guide us.
 
Peptoboy said:
Most of the physicians that consider the DO as a "second class profession" are old school, and frankly way back in the day the second class claim was not too far off base. I think that most MD's that have graduated the last 10 years or so have a different perspective because the DO profession has taken many strides toward excellence.
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As long as allo applicants continue to use DO as a backup, there will be a cloud over the DO degree.
 
A cloud exists because they chose to apply to schools as backups. They chose to go off about how much cranial sucks/its a sham/etc. Why did you apply then?

Trust me, your application will not be missed if you chose not to apply.
 
turn all DO schools into MD with OMM degree granting insitution, close rocky vista.

that's my take.
 
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