vanbamm

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Is anyone familiar with who Dr. Fulford was? I am chiro, but after reading his book he published before passing away I find myself questioning what healing is and what medicine is- are patients taken down a corrupt path led by the deep pockets of drug and insurance companies twisting the MD/DO's arms- can.one practice what is ethically and morally right and still survive?
 

goooooober

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Is anyone familiar with who Dr. Fulford was? I am chiro, but after reading his book he published before passing away I find myself questioning what healing is and what medicine is- are patients taken down a corrupt path led by the deep pockets of drug and insurance companies twisting the MD/DO's arms- can.one practice what is ethically and morally right and still survive?
I don't care who Dr. Fulford was. However, to address your question, yes, it is possible to practice ethical and morally responsible medicine.

You just cant be ignorant about the business aspect of it either. Companies and hospitals invest billions of dollars in the healthcare industry annually. They depend on physicians to generate jobs, money, and above all customers (patients) for them.

Thus, they will send you all kinds of letters, samples, gifts, lunch, commercials, gorgeous and horney reps, etc to try to educate (manipulate) you to use their drugs or their MRI machine or their lab or their clinic or hospital.

Bottom line, if you don't want to be manipulated, read more books and evidence based journals and make good choices for your patients. Bottom line, know your shi*. Learn to evaluate not only results, but methods used to get those results and overall evidence in the literature supporting it, not just one study that the hot blonde rep in the mini handed you today while winking at you and "accidentally" dropping the study in front of you ("oopsie daisy") first just to slowly bend down and pick it back up and hand it to you again, while licking her lips.

Good luck.
 
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Bottom line, if you don't want to be manipulated, read more books and evidence based journals and make good choices for your patients. Bottom line, know your shi*. Learn to evaluate not only results, but methods used to get those results and overall evidence in the literature supporting it, not just one study that the hot blonde rep in the mini handed you today while winking at you and "accidentally" dropping the study in front of you ("oopsie daisy") first just to slowly bend down and pick it back up and hand it to you again, while licking her lips.

Good luck.

oooh, youre getting me all hot and bothered ;)


but well said- you cant be lazy and expect to be a good physician
 

JustPlainBill

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OP -- I worked as a CA and strongly considered chiro school before going D.O. -- the chiro I worked for did some of Fulford's percussion hammer 'work'....along with chakra balancing, auto-suggestion, Toftness technique, AK and other questionable practices. From what he mentioned/taught about the percussion hammer that he was taught from a Fulford acolyte (coupled with a few of Fulford's books that I flipped through) -- Fulford was bit out there. My impression was that he didn't just get off the traditional medicine boat, he split from the whole effin' program.

Don't stay in the lie that big pharma controls medicine and only chiropractic has the real way to heal. Just not so. I was well versed in chiro ideology before I went through a D.O. program and I can tell you it just doesn't hold up....
 

facetguy

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OP -- I worked as a CA and strongly considered chiro school before going D.O. -- the chiro I worked for did some of Fulford's percussion hammer 'work'....along with chakra balancing, auto-suggestion, Toftness technique, AK and other questionable practices. From what he mentioned/taught about the percussion hammer that he was taught from a Fulford acolyte (coupled with a few of Fulford's books that I flipped through) -- Fulford was bit out there. My impression was that he didn't just get off the traditional medicine boat, he split from the whole effin' program.

Don't stay in the lie that big pharma controls medicine and only chiropractic has the real way to heal. Just not so. I was well versed in chiro ideology before I went through a D.O. program and I can tell you it just doesn't hold up....
Please elaborate on this (bolded).
 

FutureCTDoc

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Chiro is a faith, however unlike religion medicine needs to be logical. According to Palmer subluxations cause all somatic illness. Many DCs oppose vaccination. I know several DCs, some are rational and understand the limits of their techniques. However some believe that chemotherapy and radiation therapy are evil and that laetrile will cure CA, JustPlainBill is referring to those loons, who represent a minority, but a vocal one.
 
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vanbamm

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Sorry- this wasn't intended to question chiropractic- I am a c3 and the approach is evidenced based- for those in practice now who were turned loose to practice without having to support everything they do- they are being cracked down on and weeded out- fulford was not traditional , but he was effective - perhaps his methods lacked scientific proof- but we was effective and employed treatments -both western and eastern in origin- he was able to get away with it bc docs at that time didn't have to practice best evidence based treatment- although his treatment that took into consideration the electric field present in the human body was heavily researched at michigan state and has been proven effective when coupled with proper medical analysis- his hammer was home made and anyone claiming to employ his technique is probably a poor physician- he was unique and gifted and had an exceptional understanding of the human on many dimensions- but after many many years of practice in multiple settings...
 

JustPlainBill

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Recognize that I'm in the middle of an internal medicine month and have been pushing the limits of duty hours. I just happened to be between admits and hit the boards for some stress relief -- there's no judo mats in the call room or I'd be doing that.....

Regarding the 'research' at Michigan State --- I've seen so many people take legitimate research, string it together where there really wasn't any relationship and use it to reach for a 'proof' where there really wasn't one...

Take cranial as taught at my school --- a guest lecturer went from a single pulsating neuron in a petri dish to telling us we could palpate mitochondrial respiration (yeah, I'm talking ETC here) in a one hour lecture.....PLEASE -- you expect me to believe that I'm going to feel mitchochondrial respiration? But they strung together several 'experiments' with 'researchers' who were really at the fringes of the body of scientific research and voila' you had 'researched evidence'....Another told us the reason our serum chemistry approximated seawater was because we had evolved from fish...yes, I'm quite serious.

Just like asking me to believe you can palpate/treat the celiac plexus by placing your fingertips between the xiphoid process and umbilicus....really? Hmm, so what about the 12 inches or so of muscle, gutpile, sinew that you have to 'palpate' through to get to the celiac plexus which is on the anterior aspect of the lumbo/sacral vertebral area? Again, someone wants to believe that what they do works and you've got 'evidence'. I had a pre-doctoral OMM fellow admit that they really had no idea how it all worked, these were just theories strung together. I had moe respect for him rather than those who wanted me to drink the Kool-Aid.....

I regard Fulford as something of the type -- If he had no idea of why what he did worked, just say so. And be prepared to have it legitimately studied and either proven or disproven...but don't turn it into some pseudo-mystical mumbo jumbo just to make yourself look good.....it adds nothing to legitimate practitioners of medicine and makes your colleagues guilty by association.....
 

Black Adder

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Recognize that I'm in the middle of an internal medicine month and have been pushing the limits of duty hours. I just happened to be between admits and hit the boards for some stress relief -- there's no judo mats in the call room or I'd be doing that.....

Regarding the 'research' at Michigan State --- I've seen so many people take legitimate research, string it together where there really wasn't any relationship and use it to reach for a 'proof' where there really wasn't one...

Take cranial as taught at my school --- a guest lecturer went from a single pulsating neuron in a petri dish to telling us we could palpate mitochondrial respiration (yeah, I'm talking ETC here) in a one hour lecture.....PLEASE -- you expect me to believe that I'm going to feel mitchochondrial respiration? But they strung together several 'experiments' with 'researchers' who were really at the fringes of the body of scientific research and voila' you had 'researched evidence'....Another told us the reason our serum chemistry approximated seawater was because we had evolved from fish...yes, I'm quite serious.

Just like asking me to believe you can palpate/treat the celiac plexus by placing your fingertips between the xiphoid process and umbilicus....really? Hmm, so what about the 12 inches or so of muscle, gutpile, sinew that you have to 'palpate' through to get to the celiac plexus which is on the anterior aspect of the lumbo/sacral vertebral area? Again, someone wants to believe that what they do works and you've got 'evidence'. I had a pre-doctoral OMM fellow admit that they really had no idea how it all worked, these were just theories strung together. I had moe respect for him rather than those who wanted me to drink the Kool-Aid.....

I regard Fulford as something of the type -- If he had no idea of why what he did worked, just say so. And be prepared to have it legitimately studied and either proven or disproven...but don't turn it into some pseudo-mystical mumbo jumbo just to make yourself look good.....it adds nothing to legitimate practitioners of medicine and makes your colleagues guilty by association.....

:thumbup:

The fact that cranial and the like is still part of our curriculum really makes the profession look bad. Some aspects of OMT have beneficial uses and are effective treatment modalities, other aspects of OMT is utter nonsense.
 
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vanbamm

vanbamm

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The world we exist in is scientific, and to that extent many of the practices, such as cranial sacral techniques, remain to be quantified in those terms and are disregarded...I think even if it's something you are into you can't practice it ethically...to explore it and study it outside of treating patients I believe may contribute to one day explaining the mechanism...but the approach to finding it has been wrong- we are electrical current, and so our molecules vibrate and send out frequency that can be detected- but as far as through palpation, that appears to be a bit far-fetched in theory...the celiac/solar plexus is located in front of the upper lumbars, and as you know contains vital arterial routes and sympathetic innervating pathways, making it a vital area-but creating a hands on change in this plexus can't be done mechanically, even with an adjustment, if serious...energy exchange is possible in manipulation, but I agree that because it sits beneath a fine cushion of other structures, it would take considerable force and amplitude, as well as precise inhuman accuracy to provoke.a change...manipulation can be good, when used correctly and skillfully, but is definitely not a cure all nor a primary means to restore a failing mechanism...as future d.o.'s I don't think you should disregard everything but take what you want and make up your own minds on it- someone is always going to be trying to pull others one way or the other
 

facetguy

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Chiro is a faith, however unlike religion medicine needs to be logical. According to Palmer subluxations cause all somatic illness. Many DCs oppose vaccination. I know several DCs, some are rational and understand the limits of their techniques. However some believe that chemotherapy and radiation therapy are evil and that laetrile will cure CA, JustPlainBill is referring to those loons, who represent a minority, but a vocal one.
This post would have worked 40 years ago. But not today. Get yourself up to speed if you wish to criticize chiropractic; healthy debate is good. Saying chiro is a "faith" and not "logical" is just silly.
 

Styria

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Robert Fulford was a Fellow of the Cranial Academy and one of its past presidents. I don't know anything about his percussion hammer, other than that it's difficult to use correctly.
 

JustPlainBill

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The world we exist in is scientific, and to that extent many of the practices, such as cranial sacral techniques, remain to be quantified in those terms and are disregarded...I think even if it's something you are into you can't practice it ethically...to explore it and study it outside of treating patients I believe may contribute to one day explaining the mechanism...but the approach to finding it has been wrong- we are electrical current, and so our molecules vibrate and send out frequency that can be detected- but as far as through palpation, that appears to be a bit far-fetched in theory...the celiac/solar plexus is located in front of the upper lumbars, and as you know contains vital arterial routes and sympathetic innervating pathways, making it a vital area-but creating a hands on change in this plexus can't be done mechanically, even with an adjustment, if serious...energy exchange is possible in manipulation, but I agree that because it sits beneath a fine cushion of other structures, it would take considerable force and amplitude, as well as precise inhuman accuracy to provoke.a change...manipulation can be good, when used correctly and skillfully, but is definitely not a cure all nor a primary means to restore a failing mechanism...as future d.o.'s I don't think you should disregard everything but take what you want and make up your own minds on it- someone is always going to be trying to pull others one way or the other
Let's not get our mental exercise jumping to conclusions....

I don't think you can say 'we ARE electrical current'....really? so then tissue is what? to say that there is a detectable electric field around/in the body -- ok.....and you just made my point about how 'research' gets misused and misquoted.....

Just because you like something or use something doesn't make it scientifically correct or applicable.....or just because I like/use something either....

I'm just asking for people to be able to have the testicular fortitude to stand up and say,'We don't know how it works and we're willing to take an honest look at it.' rather than treating it like sacrilege when you question it....
 
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Tissue is the source of energy- which is constantly being exchanged via charged particles- I agree with your conclusion though- honest pursuit of truth.
 

JustPlainBill

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Tissue is the source of energy- which is constantly being exchanged via charged particles- I agree with your conclusion though- honest pursuit of truth.
I'm assuming you're a DC and not yet through medical school. I am not saying that getting through medical school makes anyone an expert in anything....but you don't realize how absolutely ridiculous that statement sounds as does the logic used to get there......

I am glad you're for honest pursuit of the truth....I just wish it happened in the D.O. world also....maybe we could lose cranial and get with the program. Sometimes I wonder if the ORC at TCOM isn't just a jobs program for out of work OMM types.....
 
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I'm assuming you're a DC and not yet through medical school. I am not saying that getting through medical school makes anyone an expert in anything....but you don't realize how absolutely ridiculous that statement sounds as does the logic used to get there......

I am glad you're for honest pursuit of the truth....I just wish it happened in the D.O. world also....maybe we could lose cranial and get with the program. Sometimes I wonder if the ORC at TCOM isn't just a jobs program for out of work OMM types.....

I am in my third year of DC school-and do not intend to go to MD school...With the idea simplified to that brief statement, yes it can appear unsubstantial - to be more precise, what i meant is every tissue of the body, every mechanism and system that exists, exchanges energy in order to maintain function-the chemistry of these systems, and the tissues and cells themselves, release, restore, rebuild- energy..." electricity"; the presence, flow, and exchange of charges...
I wouldn't discount some things you are taught in OMM, chiro. teaches some things in adjusting and manipulation that I know I will never use, but they can open the door to your own thoughts and own progressions as a physician- these things need validity and reliability in order to prove they are clinically useful...Perhaps a couple of decades ago it was okay to do something because it worked, but today, with the insurance companies, they want to know what you did, why you did it, and what supports the protocol- or you will see yourself not getting reimbursed- not totally fair, but it a round about way protects patients and maintains the professionalism of medicine among practicing doctors i would think...
 

homeboy

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"... what i meant is every tissue of the body, every mechanism and system that exists, exchanges energy in order to maintain function-the chemistry of these systems, and the tissues and cells themselves, release, restore, rebuild- energy..." electricity"; the presence, flow, and exchange of charges..."

Not to jump into this conversation mid-stream, but I can't help but feel this is the underlying logical fallacy of chiropractic: its proponents take basic science principles & concepts (eg. electric charge) and include it in every-day language / conversation, particularly when talking with patients, and act as if it has great relevance to what they're purporting.

Hell, by bringing the argument down to the molecular level, you'd think a friggin' magnet would make a good therapeutic tool... some even make that argument, and because the treatment is so benign (read "useless") no one's going to disprove it... it's lower on the FDAs priority list than statins, CT scans, et al modern medicine that has some grounding in applied science versus theoretical science.

IE: chiropractic (and OMM for that matter) is theoretical, not applied. And what little applied science is used they have no justification using. Perfect example: why the hell can chiropractors take xrays? Really? You're telling me you're versed in interpreting plain films because you had some lectures in chiro school and saw some films in whatever internship you may have done?
 

fahimaz7

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Please elaborate on this (bolded).
When Chiro gets outside of their spectrum of training, and begins to treat autism, pancreatic cancer, and diabetes they lose all credit that they have imo.

I don't have many problems with chiropractors working with the spine, but I do have a problem with them treating systemic diseases, that have no evidence to support the use of manipulations in their disease.
 
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vanbamm

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When Chiro gets outside of their spectrum of training, and begins to treat autism, pancreatic cancer, and diabetes they lose all credit that they have imo.

I don't have many problems with chiropractors working with the spine, but I do have a problem with them treating systemic diseases, that have no evidence to support the use of manipulations in their disease.

i am in chiro. and i agree to this 100%.
 
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vanbamm

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"... what i meant is every tissue of the body, every mechanism and system that exists, exchanges energy in order to maintain function-the chemistry of these systems, and the tissues and cells themselves, release, restore, rebuild- energy..." electricity"; the presence, flow, and exchange of charges..."

Not to jump into this conversation mid-stream, but I can't help but feel this is the underlying logical fallacy of chiropractic: its proponents take basic science principles & concepts (eg. electric charge) and include it in every-day language / conversation, particularly when talking with patients, and act as if it has great relevance to what they're purporting.

Hell, by bringing the argument down to the molecular level, you'd think a friggin' magnet would make a good therapeutic tool... some even make that argument, and because the treatment is so benign (read "useless") no one's going to disprove it... it's lower on the FDAs priority list than statins, CT scans, et al modern medicine that has some grounding in applied science versus theoretical science.

IE: chiropractic (and OMM for that matter) is theoretical, not applied. And what little applied science is used they have no justification using. Perfect example: why the hell can chiropractors take xrays? Really? You’re telling me you’re versed in interpreting plain films because you had some lectures in chiro school and saw some films in whatever internship you may have done?
the basics are what you build from- you can't just take into consideration any system of the body without realizing how it works and what it interacts with- going down to the cellular level I was trying to simply explain that molecules interact- creating the basis for our physiolog.... some of Still's and Palmer's techiniques remain to be explained, but they work, and so the evidence is lagging- same goes for pharm.- as far as radiographic imaging goes- yes i am more than capable of reading a films(not from a simple lecture or internship but bc of the labs they make us do with the MD school and teaching hospitals that are part of our schooling) and identifying pathology from normal anatomy- that is important to treatment; knowing the difference between referral and what is within scope of practice-i also can look at a CT, as well as a MRI and interpret the results TO AN EXTENT- which is where the MD/DO comes into play- we refer to you for serious pathology- chiropractic is not a cure- i know that and you know that- which is why we need the MD/DO- you may not need us- but patients do when it is something that be cared for conservatively in relation to spinal health.
 

facetguy

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When Chiro gets outside of their spectrum of training, and begins to treat autism, pancreatic cancer, and diabetes they lose all credit that they have imo.

I don't have many problems with chiropractors working with the spine, but I do have a problem with them treating systemic diseases, that have no evidence to support the use of manipulations in their disease.
How about giving nutritional and exercise advice to, for example, that diabetic patient? Would you have a problem with that? Or, let's keep it even simpler: nutritional advice to an overweight patient? Or how about talking to a patient about some stress management strategies to improve their overall health? It's not always just about manipulation. In fact, to assume that chiropractic = manipulation only would be incorrect.
 

Brooklyndo2.1

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I'm assuming you're a DC and not yet through medical school. I am not saying that getting through medical school makes anyone an expert in anything....but you don't realize how absolutely ridiculous that statement sounds as does the logic used to get there......

I am glad you're for honest pursuit of the truth....I just wish it happened in the D.O. world also....maybe we could lose cranial and get with the program. Sometimes I wonder if the ORC at TCOM isn't just a jobs program for out of work OMM types.....
Bill : i don't known about tissue being the source of energy but tissue as we perceive it IS energy or rather matter is a state of energy. this is like Junior high maybe sometimes high school physics concept here. I'm gonna go ahead and cite a simple wiki page coz honestly you can crack your own physics book...you know like you did for the mcat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter

as for the ability to work with and palpate energy , I am pretty sure it hasnt been DISproven yet. basic argument is that you can not say something is NOT true if you have no way to test it. I am not advocating working outside of what we already know, all im saying is dont get caught up in it thinking that what we know is all there is. Otherwise the world would still be flat and the sun would circle around the earth. :beat:
 
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I wouldn't discount some things you are taught in OMM, chiro. teaches some things in adjusting and manipulation that I know I will never use, but they can open the door to your own thoughts and own progressions as a ?PHYSICIAN?- these things need validity and reliability in order to prove they are clinically useful...

But chiros aren't physicians...just read the sdn poll :laugh:
 
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vanbamm

vanbamm

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Believe everything everyone else thinks and you will find disillusion ; if the sdn poll shifted would you change? Unfortunately for you, DC's have physician status in the US which is confined to contain only MD/DO/DPM/DDS/DC and OD.
 

JustPlainBill

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Bill : i don't known about tissue being the source of energy but tissue as we perceive it IS energy or rather matter is a state of energy. this is like Junior high maybe sometimes high school physics concept here. I'm gonna go ahead and cite a simple wiki page coz honestly you can crack your own physics book...you know like you did for the mcat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter

as for the ability to work with and palpate energy , I am pretty sure it hasnt been DISproven yet. basic argument is that you can not say something is NOT true if you have no way to test it. I am not advocating working outside of what we already know, all im saying is dont get caught up in it thinking that what we know is all there is. Otherwise the world would still be flat and the sun would circle around the earth. :beat:
While you are technically correct, I admit to being jaded about the mental leaps that chiropractors (and some D.O.'s) make to use snakeoil 'treatments' that are sometimes foisted on the unsuspecting public....

I know of a DC who claimed that he could drag his fingers across an orange plastic disc attached to his belt while holding his other hand above the spine of the patient and moving it from cervical to lumbar levels. When the loudest squeak was produced from the friction of his fingers, that was where the vertebral subluxation was (somatic dysfunction for you D.O.'s) located. He then proceeded to 'treat' the dysfunction by touching the subluxation with his finger and would leave it there while continuing to rub the disc. When the squeaking diminished, the treatment was done.......seriously.....this was not his only technique -- he did use diversified and some Gonstead, foot baths and AK....but it was a mainstay and he tried to convince me of the validity of it.....

So when someone on the board starts talking about 'energy and electricity' and the like (or palpating cranial motion for that matter), the
BS meter (which is loacted right behind the skepticism switch, colocated with the cynic function) in my head starts to go off.....

And yes, I do go to a DC when I need to, rather than to a DO. He's the only one who can isolate a certain segment - he spent time with Clarence Gonstead learning his technique - and he's very good. He's helped me walk w/o back surgery after an L4/L5 herniation from a weightlifting accident.....

Anyway, I'll sign off now....have fun guys---
 

NYEMMED

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Believe everything everyone else thinks and you will find disillusion ; if the sdn poll shifted would you change? Unfortunately for you, DC's have physician status in the US which is confined to contain only MD/DO/DPM/DDS/DC and OD.
Actually in the U.S. only two degrees are allowed to call themselves physicians the MD and the DO... The other degrees can call themselves Drs. but not physicians.
Some states may allow chiropractors to call themselves chiropractic physicians, but not medical physician or just physician.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm
"There are two types of physicians: M.D. (Medical Doctor) and D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm
"chiropractors do not prescribe drugs or perform surgery."

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Doctors_of_Osteopathic_Medicine
"In the United States, the DO and the MD are the only two degrees permitting licensure as medical physicians."
 

JaggerPlate

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Believe everything everyone else thinks and you will find disillusion ; if the sdn poll shifted would you change? Unfortunately for you, DC's have physician status in the US which is confined to contain only MD/DO/DPM/DDS/DC and OD.
physician = DO/MD. DCs are, no offense, no where near this title and this type of mentality is dangerous for unsuspecting patients.
 

J-Rad

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...as for the ability to work with and palpate energy , I am pretty sure it hasnt been DISproven yet. basic argument is that you can not say something is NOT true if you have no way to test it. I am not advocating working outside of what we already know, all im saying is dont get caught up in it thinking that what we know is all there is. Otherwise the world would still be flat and the sun would circle around the earth. :beat:
The first part of your statement is merely one of the many apologetic arguments for faith. In the realm of this discussion, what you are advocating is faith healing and putting forth that because no-one has disproven the effectiveness of faith healing (though no one, despite their best efforts, has proven its effectiveness) we should allow for it as a valid model of healthcare. Outside of this discussion I would also mention that no one has disproven unicorns, leprechauns, faeries, yeti, sasquatch, and more items of faith than I can list here.

The irony of your juxtaposition of the latter part of the above paragraph with the earlier should not be lost. Our understanding of the earth not being flat and the sun circling the earth was predicated on those who defied the prevailing faith and relied on careful, scientific observation. There is a subtle allusion to the revolutionaries of science whom had seemingly outlandish ideas that were proven to be (likely) true (as best as science may prove). But those proponents of faith who mention this, by allusion or directly, often forget that for every one revolutionary who's theories panned out, that there were probably thousands of other revolutionaries with ideas that failed, most of whose names have been lost in time due to their failure. Those proponents of faith also fail to recognize that the enduring revolutionaries proved their theories with scientific research, not with the notion that "well, we can't disprove it". Your "basic argument is that you can not say something is NOT true if you have no way to test it" is not a valid argument within the scientific realm. If you want to be a faith healer, then you went to the wrong type of school.
 

futIDdoc

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as for the ability to work with and palpate energy , I am pretty sure it hasnt been DISproven yet. basic argument is that you can not say something is NOT true if you have no way to test it
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
--Christopher Hitchens

Also, to the OP, don't ever write "Dr. so and So, MD". It is redundant and annoying.
 

facetguy

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physician = DO/MD. DCs are, no offense, no where near this title and this type of mentality is dangerous for unsuspecting patients.
This is really really important, otherwise unsuspecting patients may end up undergoing open-heart surgery at chiropractic offices.;)
 

fahimaz7

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This is really really important, otherwise unsuspecting patients may end up undergoing open-heart surgery at chiropractic offices.;)
As if the general public really knows the difference between an MD, MD, and some quack chiropractor that is offering to treat his/her cancer using "proven therapeutic techniques." It won't surprise me a bit when chiropractors try and get surgical training, so they can do spinal procedures and nerve blocks.
 

facetguy

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As if the general public really knows the difference between an MD, MD, and some quack chiropractor that is offering to treat his/her cancer using "proven therapeutic techniques." It won't surprise me a bit when chiropractors try and get surgical training, so they can do spinal procedures and nerve blocks.
I am telling you that the general public really knows the difference between MDs and chiropractors. And chiropractors will never try to get surgical training, so you can sleep more soundly.:)
 

JustPlainBill

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I am telling you that the general public really knows the difference between MDs and chiropractors. And chiropractors will never try to get surgical training, so you can sleep more soundly.:)
Interesting -- I thought they had full practice rights and could prescribe meds, give injections, run IVs and admit patients in Oregon....isn't that where Goldhammer did his research re: "medically" supervised fasting and HTN control?
 

JaggerPlate

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This is really really important, otherwise unsuspecting patients may end up undergoing open-heart surgery at chiropractic offices.;)
Eh, maybe not open heart surgery ... but I don't see how it's advantageous for patients when Chiros advertise as primary care providers. When DCs advertise/perform spinal manipulation ... it's all good. When they try to state that they are primary care providers, should be reading x-rays, etc, I take issue. If you can tell me that a DC is equivalent to a DO/MD who completed 4 years of medical school, three years of FP residency, and is BC/BE by ABMS/AOBMS ... then we can talk.

Until then, I don't see how individuals advertising themselves as something they aren't isn't dangerous to unsuspecting patients. Are DCs physicians? Are they primary care physicians/providers? I personally don't think so ... but is a random patient who reads: Dr. John Doe, primary care ... on some shingle going to know any better? I don't think so, nor do I think primary care services are something that should be demoted to a 'it's not heart surgery' type of dismissed level.
 

JaggerPlate

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http://www.acatoday.org/level3_css.cfm?T1ID=13&T2ID=61&T3ID=149

Scope of practice- so those of you who do not know, can become enlightened
Quoted from the 'American Chiropractic Academy.' I'm pretty sure every state says 'DCs can't perform surgery or prescribe meds,' and goes on to state 'DOs/MDs can perform surgery and prescribe meds (unrestricted).' I don't think anyone is doubting that DCs can perform spinal manipulation or that organizations like the ACA believe that this type of care transcends musculoskeletal issues ... but this does not mean DCs are physicians, nor does it mean they should practice outside of spinal manipulation.
 
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So since this thread became about chiropractors and not osteopathic medical students I was thinking that the thread should be moved to a chiropractic section of SDN. But when I went to look, I found that there is no chiropractic section of SDN. So based off of SDN's exclusion of D.C.'s from a long list of other doctors (MD, DO, DPM, Optometrist...) can we conclude that chiropractors are not only NOT physicians, but not doctors as well??
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

facetguy

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Eh, maybe not open heart surgery ... but I don't see how it's advantageous for patients when Chiros advertise as primary care providers. When DCs advertise/perform spinal manipulation ... it's all good. When they try to state that they are primary care providers, should be reading x-rays, etc, I take issue. If you can tell me that a DC is equivalent to a DO/MD who completed 4 years of medical school, three years of FP residency, and is BC/BE by ABMS/AOBMS ... then we can talk.

Until then, I don't see how individuals advertising themselves as something they aren't isn't dangerous to unsuspecting patients. Are DCs physicians? Are they primary care physicians/providers? I personally don't think so ... but is a random patient who reads: Dr. John Doe, primary care ... on some shingle going to know any better? I don't think so, nor do I think primary care services are something that should be demoted to a 'it's not heart surgery' type of dismissed level.
Point taken. However, chiros can't (at least from what I've seen) hang a shingle that says "Primary Care Physician". If the title "physician" is allowed at all by state law, it must be accompanied by the word "chiropractic", as in "chiropractic physician". Some states allow for this, others don't. You'll never see (at least not legally) a chiro say just "primary care physician" on a sign, ads, etc.

Now, as I think we've discussed before, there may be a semantics issue in terms of "primary care". If a chiro says he's "primary care" (a label I've never given myself, by the way), he means "direct access without a referral from an MD".
 

facetguy

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So since this thread became about chiropractors and not osteopathic medical students I was thinking that the thread should be moved to a chiropractic section of SDN. But when I went to look, I found that there is no chiropractic section of SDN. So based off of SDN's exclusion of D.C.'s from a long list of other doctors (MD, DO, DPM, Optometrist...) can we conclude that chiropractors are not only NOT physicians, but not doctors as well??
Hey, that sounds like the start of a petition to get a Chiro Forum on SDN.:idea:
 

fahimaz7

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Point taken. However, chiros can't (at least from what I've seen) hang a shingle that says "Primary Care Physician". If the title "physician" is allowed at all by state law, it must be accompanied by the word "chiropractic", as in "chiropractic physician". Some states allow for this, others don't. You'll never see (at least not legally) a chiro say just "primary care physician" on a sign, ads, etc.

Now, as I think we've discussed before, there may be a semantics issue in terms of "primary care". If a chiro says he's "primary care" (a label I've never given myself, by the way), he means "direct access without a referral from an MD".
Which is another example of trying to mislead the public. I guess a massage therapist is also a primary care provider.
 

JustPlainBill

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Point taken. However, chiros can't (at least from what I've seen) hang a shingle that says "Primary Care Physician". If the title "physician" is allowed at all by state law, it must be accompanied by the word "chiropractic", as in "chiropractic physician". Some states allow for this, others don't. You'll never see (at least not legally) a chiro say just "primary care physician" on a sign, ads, etc.

Now, as I think we've discussed before, there may be a semantics issue in terms of "primary care". If a chiro says he's "primary care" (a label I've never given myself, by the way), he means "direct access without a referral from an MD".
Interesting spin --- what physicians usually mean by 'primary care' are one of these: family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics, ob/gyn.....

Realistically speaking, I can't seem to recall ever hearing anything about chiropractice on the wards or in clinic. They're just not part of the equation.....
 

facetguy

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Which is another example of trying to mislead the public. I guess a massage therapist is also a primary care provider.
Perhaps someone will take the time to find examples to the contrary, but I can't say I know of any chiros who market themselves as "primary care" anything. It may come up in discussions like this, but it's not something used in public advertising or marketing, as far as I've seen. I think your whole "misleading the public" premise is false. If someone wants to see a chiro, they can and do. People will sometimes come to my office saying "I've never been to a chiropractor before"; they never come in saying "I'm confused as to what chiropractors do. Are you going to remove my gallbladder today? I hope so, because it's really bothering me".
 

facetguy

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Interesting spin --- what physicians usually mean by 'primary care' are one of these: family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics, ob/gyn.....

Realistically speaking, I can't seem to recall ever hearing anything about chiropractice on the wards or in clinic. They're just not part of the equation.....
True! We are not on the "team", so to speak. Which explains why there is so much confusion and misinformation among "mainstream medicine" about chiros, much more so than among the general public, who understands very well what chiros do. It's so obvious here on SDN that most pre-meds and med students (and some attendings) simply regurgitate what they've been told along the way about chiropractors without ever taking the time to do their own investigation on the topic; perpetuate the myths. Amazingly, despite being healthcare outsiders, if you will, chiros have survived for over 100 years, and now with ever-increasing research behind what we do, we are gaining ground in terms of inter-professional relations. You are absolutely right when you say we aren't part of the equation, and as such the MD's reflex referral for MSK problems is to a PT, because that is what MDs are trained to do. And not that there's anything wrong with a referral to PTs for MSK problems. But when the amount of research for spinal manipulation and chiro care for neck and back conditions is at least as strong, and often stronger, than that for PT care, you cannot ignore chiro care if you wish to be evidence-based. How's that for spin.
 

JaggerPlate

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Perhaps someone will take the time to find examples to the contrary, but I can't say I know of any chiros who market themselves as "primary care" anything. It may come up in discussions like this, but it's not something used in public advertising or marketing, as far as I've seen. I think your whole "misleading the public" premise is false. If someone wants to see a chiro, they can and do. People will sometimes come to my office saying "I've never been to a chiropractor before"; they never come in saying "I'm confused as to what chiropractors do. Are you going to remove my gallbladder today? I hope so, because it's really bothering me".
"Unfortunately for you, DC's have physician status in the US which is confined to contain only MD/DO/DPM/DDS/DC and OD."

-Vanbamm

It would be great if all DCs were simply interested in practicing within their scope, being honest with patients, not marketing something they aren't, but frankly, I see evidence to the contrary almost every time a DC discussion comes up on SDN. It seems like the old guard of individuals who wanted to practice spinal manipulation are starting to fade away, and newer DCs seems to want to be 'more' without doing any additional training, testing, education, etc.

Additionally, you can use exaggerated examples all day long, but the fact of the matter is that the 'primary care provider' shingle IS confusing to a patient who, as you stated, maybe has never seen a DC and is unsure of what they do. When this patient walks into the office that says 'primary care provider,' and says 'I'm clueless, what do you do,' do you think this DC, who has already made it clear that he/she has no intention of staying within proper bounds, is going to explain what they do, or do you think it's going to be some rant about 'primary care with an emphasis on musculoskeletal treatment' while the patient is paying cash for some homeopathic remedy and thinking he/she has been examined by a professional and is fine??? Obviously this person knows the difference between a surgeon who would remove your gallbladder and a general practitioner, but do you think he or she knows the difference between a 'primary care provider (DC)' and a 'primary care provider (DO/MD)?' I just don't see how this isn't dangerous, nor does Vanbamm's attitude toward his status as a 'physician' convince me that DCs don't see themselves as something more than Chiropractors

True! We are not on the "team", so to speak. Which explains why there is so much confusion and misinformation among "mainstream medicine" about chiros, much more so than among the general public, who understands very well what chiros do. It's so obvious here on SDN that most pre-meds and med students (and some attendings) simply regurgitate what they've been told along the way about chiropractors without ever taking the time to do their own investigation on the topic; perpetuate the myths. Amazingly, despite being healthcare outsiders, if you will, chiros have survived for over 100 years, and now with ever-increasing research behind what we do, we are gaining ground in terms of inter-professional relations. You are absolutely right when you say we aren't part of the equation, and as such the MD's reflex referral for MSK problems is to a PT, because that is what MDs are trained to do. And not that there's anything wrong with a referral to PTs for MSK problems. But when the amount of research for spinal manipulation and chiro care for neck and back conditions is at least as strong, and often stronger, than that for PT care, you cannot ignore chiro care if you wish to be evidence-based. How's that for spin.
I don't think docs are trained to not refer to DCs ... nor do I think the huge push against DCs that the AMA led YEARS ago is still alive in the presence of MD/DOs today. Frankly, I think they refer to PTs for MSK complaints because, like someone else pointed out, they are often associated with hospital outpatient rehab clinics, etc, and DCs simply aren't. It isn't some sort of conspiracy or inability to think outside of some trained response, it's just what makes sense.

Additionally, maybe it's just me, but I'd be far more inclined to refer to a DO who practiced (frequently) or specialized in OMM. I see this as far more of a general MSK solution than care restricted to spinal manipulation alone.
 

st2205

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You'll never see (at least not legally) a chiro say just "primary care physician" on a sign, ads, etc.
http://www.godrc.com/Pages/ChiropractorsAreDoctors.html

Doctors of Chiropractic are Primary Health Care Providers, which means they are practitioners of the healing arts who examine patients, analyze the results of tests, diagnose and treat the patient's health condition, and advise the patient about methods of preventive health care.
http://www.alignwc.com/dr-gerstin-answers.asp

Q: Do I have to see my medical doctor before I see a chiropractor?

A: No. Doctors of Chiropractic are primary health care providers. According to the Center for Studies in Health Policy, "The DC can provide all three levels of primary care interventions and therefore is a primary care provider, as are MDs and DOs. The doctor of chiropractic is a gatekeeper to the health care system and an independent practitioner who provides primary care services. The DC's office is a direct access portal of entry to the full scope of service." Our doctors will look to contact your other physicians to discuss your case and be sure your program of care is appropriate.
http://www.acatoday.org/press_css.cfm?CID=4165

The American Chiropractic Association (ACA) underscored its position that doctors of chiropractic are qualified and ready to help address primary health care provider shortages in the United States with a resolution passed by its delegates during their recent annual meeting, held Sept. 28-Oct. 2 in Newport, R.I. The resolution was one of several passed by the House of Delegates (HOD), which also received progress reports on a variety of association initiatives.

This year, for the first time, ACA partnered with state associations in the region to host its annual meeting. The American Chiropractic Association and Northeast Chiropractic Council (NECC) Fall Conference drew hundreds of doctors of chiropractic, who were treated to a selection of programs, educational seminars and networking opportunities, as well as exhibits featuring a wide variety of chiropractic products and services.

In the policy on primary care—which dovetails with ACA’s efforts to expand the role of DCs in health care reform initiatives—delegates outlined the educational qualifications, skills and experience of DCs that equip them to help fill gaps in primary care services in the United States. The policy concludes, “Chiropractic physicians/doctors of chiropractic have pioneered conservative healthcare and have been the leading provider of these services, which are safe and effective. Chiropractic healthcare enjoys high patient satisfaction and outcomes that may control costs, enhance the primary care setting and the health of the America people.”
http://ezinearticles.com/?4-Reasons-You-Should-Make-a-Chiropractor-Your-Primary-Care-Physician&id=3754201

Chiropractors do not prescribe medications - This is important in a primary care physician as a first level of defense. If someone comes into my office with high blood pressure, I do not want to immediately put them on high blood pressure medications because then I would be compromising their kidney function. Because chiropractors do not prescribe medications, we are extremely educated in nutrition and lifestyle changes that can help. If your blood pressure is high but does not require hospitalization, there are some simple changes you can make that would lower it over a 30 day period. That is the true meaning of "health care" in my opinion. Give a chiropractor one to three months to manage a condition. If there has not been a significant change at that point, then go see a medical doctor.

Chiropractors are able to order most standard blood tests - And we know how to interpret the results as well. Combine that with the above point, that we do not prescribe medications, and you have a health expert who can work with you to determine your health concerns and give you workable, real life solution.
Of course, I'm sure all of these fit within the loose definition of 'not needing a referral to be seen'. I have a much more favorable view of the potential of the field of chiropractic than most people here on SDN. In any case, there are some huge problems that many proponents of chiropractic disregard as being legitimate issues. That many within the field claim to be able to practice outside of MSK issues is denied and downplayed.

I think the best way to demonstrate this is if we were to play devil's advocate and say that the training for DC is equivalent to MD/DO. Now if this be the case, they would certainly be held to the same standard. Now, is it appropriate for a nephrologist (who is also residency and fellowship trained, not just the MD/DO/DC) to advertise and treat people with allergies? How about an anesthesiologist interpreting blood work? An opthalmologist treating GI disturbances? A psychiatrist doing collagen injections? A pathologist treating HTN? A dermatologist treating menstrual cramps? A radiologist treating headaches? A surgeon treating anxiety? An Ob/Gyn treating OM in pediatric patients? Would you feel comfortable making an MD graduate your PCP who didn't complete any post-graduate training (internship or residency?)

All of the above physicians completed at least the four years of medical school in addition to a residency. It seems that despite all this education, it is still outside the scope of each above individual's practice to treat any of the above conditions. I would argue that the medical graduate w/o a residency or internship would be more qualified to treat any of the above conditions than a DC graduate, yet even if they went on to residency training all of the above scenarios are highly inappropriate. Why? I saw all of the above conditions on an ad at a kioske at the mall last week (sans the homeopathic collagen injections which my brother, a chiropractor, is starting to get into) for a chiropractic practice. For some reason this is commonplace and apparently isn't so far out of the ordinary that chiropractors advertise for this. There are two completely different standards within the medical field and within the chiropractic field, which is why you wouldn't see any of the previously mentioned physicians advertising to treat any of those conditions. It seems to me that instead of advancing chiropractic to demand more training to qualify as PCPs, they're settling for just changing the definition of PCP. This is unfortunate because it's ruining a potentially very valuable field that could have better integrated itself with conventional medicine the way podiatry has.
 
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NYEMMED

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True! We are not on the "team", so to speak. Which explains why there is so much confusion and misinformation among "mainstream medicine" about chiros, much more so than among the general public, who understands very well what chiros do. It's so obvious here on SDN that most pre-meds and med students (and some attendings) simply regurgitate what they've been told along the way about chiropractors without ever taking the time to do their own investigation on the topic; perpetuate the myths. Amazingly, despite being healthcare outsiders, if you will, chiros have survived for over 100 years, and now with ever-increasing research behind what we do, we are gaining ground in terms of inter-professional relations. You are absolutely right when you say we aren't part of the equation, and as such the MD's reflex referral for MSK problems is to a PT, because that is what MDs are trained to do. And not that there's anything wrong with a referral to PTs for MSK problems. But when the amount of research for spinal manipulation and chiro care for neck and back conditions is at least as strong, and often stronger, than that for PT care, you cannot ignore chiro care if you wish to be evidence-based. How's that for spin.
Actually I would rather refer my patients to a physician who was actually trained in full body msk, who also has a medical license. I would refer patients to PM&R and or OMM specialized DOs. Besides actually being physicians, DOs especially those specialized in OMM, are trained/certified/ licensed to diagnose/ treat total body msk, lymphatic, nervous, bone, and other somatic issues. Not just msk or spinal. DOs are a better choice.
 

fahimaz7

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I wonder if chiropractors understand that they are not the equivalent of registered nutritionalist. Also, what if that hypertension is due to renal artery atherosclerosis? I guess all they would need to do is a few thoracic manipulations, and the patients climbing blood pressure would be totally normal.
 
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The D.C.'s that succeed in practice are those that utilize the degree and continue to learn and explore medicine. Those that are quacks and typically don't do well, take the degree and do the basics.

Every doctor is different, some are better than others; this rests on the education of the doctor and their ambition to be better than everyone else and know more than everyone else- in turn they have higher success with patients and their career.

You can not discount every D.C. because of a few jerks that are lazy and didn't do anything after they got their degree except the minimum CCE courses and whatnot and go on to try and just make money off of people.

Have some respect for people.
 

futIDdoc

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You can not discount every D.C. because of a few jerks that are lazy and didn't do anything after they got their degree except the minimum CCE courses and whatnot and go on to try and just make money off of people.
You're right, we cannot dismiss the entire profession because of some people's laziness. However, we can dismiss your profession on the grounds that your 'practice' of medicine is not based on science, but on the delusions of a madman.
 
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You're right, we cannot dismiss the entire profession because of some people's laziness. However, we can dismiss your profession on the grounds that your 'practice' of medicine is not based on science, but on the delusions of a madman.
.
Medicine reaches beyond a pill, beyond surgery, beyond manipulation, beyond any sort of technique; it is a combination of knowledge to help people to heal and repair- no one method works for every person- I would like to know you think medicine is, or your interpretation - and I mean that in an open non-confrontational honest way-...yes, Palmer was odd, as was Still- but so too were many of the physicians that discovered what treatments worked on patients- medicine is ancient art, and not founded in exact science but has progressed...even today, surgeons still perform spinal fusion, discectomy's - which have been proven time and again to be worse off than just treating conservatively- but until some. Surgeon finds a better way- that's the way it is