Dual-degree programs

[AlexaRae]

Anyone have any experience/thoughts on dual-degree programs?? I am looking at the University of MN's DVM/PhD or DVM/MS programs. Thanks!

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[KCgophervet]

Paging @supershorty

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[mmmdreamerz]

There's a lot of good information in this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dvm-phd-experience.1171734/

 

[supershorty]

Anyone have any experience/thoughts on dual-degree programs?? I am looking at the University of MN's DVM/PhD or DVM/MS programs. Thanks!

I'm a first year in the DVM/PhD program at Minnesota! Before I spout off on how great the dual program is and how excited I am to be a part of it, do you have any specific questions about it? Otherwise, I can give you some general info about it (and probably a lot since I should be studying for anatomy and I'm procrastinating...). You're welcome to PM me, too.

 

[AlexaRae]

I'm a first year in the DVM/PhD program at Minnesota! Before I spout off on how great the dual program is and how excited I am to be a part of it, do you have any specific questions about it? Otherwise, I can give you some general info about it (and probably a lot since I should be studying for anatomy and I'm procrastinating...). You're welcome to PM me, too.

Any info is appreciated!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

@Foxhunter

 

[cheathac]

I was also thinking about dual degree. However, I've heard how hard it truly is with getting a DVM and PhD. Do most people get their PhD while doing a residency?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

At least with specialists who choose to do PhDs, we usually integrate them into residency - but not always immediately. Most of the time you spend your first two years doing almost entirely residency stuff, and start transitioning to some research in third year, take boards, and then go full-on research.

My personal recommendation is, if you want to have a DVM and a PhD, do the PhD afterwards. Especially if you want to be competitive for postdoctoral positions, you are going to want a solid experience with a lot of publications. Many DVM/PhD programs seem quite disjointed to me and I'm not sure how they expect students to take on in-depth projects (or publish as much as they need to). YMMV, of course.

 

[supershorty]

Any info is appreciated!

Okay. So to start off, if you don't know for sure that you want to do research (and know why you'd want both degrees), the dual path is not a good way to go. That's a question that came up a lot in interviews for me, and I had to have a really solid explanation of why I'd need both the DVM and the PhD to accomplish my goals. You need to already have a substantial amount of research experience to really be considered. It's really competitive - I think MN generally takes 2 people a year for it. My year has 3, but I think we're unusual that way. There are 2 ways you can do the program here: consecutively, where you do the entire DVM and then the entire PhD, or concurrently, where you do the first 2 years of the DVM, then stop and do the PhD in 4 years, and then return to finish the DVM curriculum. Each way of doing it has its pros and cons; I'm following the concurrent track, but the consecutive track is certainly an option that students have. I'm not sure how the interviews are structured, as all 3 of us in my year had different styles of interview (one large group interview vs one small group interview vs 1 small group interview & 4 additional one-on-one interviews with PIs).

We have 2 rotations that we can do in our summer research program, which is called Summer Scholars. I haven't done that yet since I'm a first year, so I can't really tell you much about it, but if you aren't sure who your mentor/advisor will be, that's generally when you figure out where you're a good fit.

We do have a GPA requirement that we have to maintain, which can be a little bit of added stress, but it's attainable.

I'm having a hard time coming up with other things to say (been in anatomy lab all day and have formalin brain!), but if you have more specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Okay. So to start off, if you don't know for sure that you want to do research (and know why you'd want both degrees), the dual path is not a good way to go. That's a question that came up a lot in interviews for me, and I had to have a really solid explanation of why I'd need both the DVM and the PhD to accomplish my goals. You need to already have a substantial amount of research experience to really be considered. It's really competitive - I think MN generally takes 2 people a year for it. My year has 3, but I think we're unusual that way. There are 2 ways you can do the program here: consecutively, where you do the entire DVM and then the entire PhD, or concurrently, where you do the first 2 years of the DVM, then stop and do the PhD in 4 years, and then return to finish the DVM curriculum. Each way of doing it has its pros and cons; I'm following the concurrent track, but the consecutive track is certainly an option that students have. I'm not sure how the interviews are structured, as all 3 of us in my year had different styles of interview (one large group interview vs one small group interview vs 1 small group interview & 4 additional one-on-one interviews with PIs).

We have 2 rotations that we can do in our summer research program, which is called Summer Scholars. I haven't done that yet since I'm a first year, so I can't really tell you much about it, but if you aren't sure who your mentor/advisor will be, that's generally when you figure out where you're a good fit.

We do have a GPA requirement that we have to maintain, which can be a little bit of added stress, but it's attainable.

I'm having a hard time coming up with other things to say (been in anatomy lab all day and have formalin brain!), but if you have more specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

I'm curious at to how that second option works.

What your research does not go as planned and you haven't finished enough in 4 years (which, for a PhD in biomedical sciences, is very quick) for the PhD, either in terms of production or publications? Or is your advisor required to let you go? Do they give DVM/PhD students "easier" projects so that there is a better chance they will finish in four years?

That seems like it would put students in the terrible position of, if things don't go smoothly, automatically graduating with a lackluster dissertation (and/or potentially fewer pubs as well, which is - sadly - a hugely important credential in the research world).

 

[Lupin21]

I'm curious at to how that second option works.

What your research does not go as planned and you haven't finished enough in 4 years (which, for a PhD in biomedical sciences, is very quick) for the PhD, either in terms of production or publications? Or is your advisor required to let you go? Do they give DVM/PhD students "easier" projects so that there is a better chance they will finish in four years?

That seems like it would put students in the terrible position of, if things don't go smoothly, automatically graduating with a lackluster dissertation (and/or potentially fewer pubs as well, which is - sadly - a hugely important credential in the research world).

not to mention four years out after two years vet means those two years were pretty worthless. I am out only two years and have to refresh constantly when I help out other students. Plus, my project is just now getting legs after a year and a half, so it won't actually get back on track until I finish last two years of vet. I will have at least one, preferably two publications before I head back, but my project and dissertation have a crap ton of work left that will have to be taken back up when I am done with clinics.

As WTF said, this way is quite difficult when the project is very science based. I am struggling to bring quality to both worlds.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

not to mention four years out after two years vet means those two years were pretty worthless. I am out only two years and have to refresh constantly when I help out other students. Plus, my project is just now getting legs after a year and a half, so it won't actually get back on track until I finish last two years of vet. I will have at least one, preferably two publications before I head back, but my project and dissertation have a crap ton of work left that will have to be taken back up when I am done with clinics.

As WTF said, this way is quite difficult when the project is very science based. I am struggling to bring quality to both worlds.

I think that is the crux of it - basic science research vs clinical research.

You could probably get a clinical-based (i.e. veterinary medicine focused) PhD in 4 years; however how that is viewed will depend heavily on where you want to go afterwards. You want to stay at a vet school? Ok, then it's probably fine. You want to move on to more in-depth, translational at a large research institution or go into industry? They aren't going to care about your veterinary publications. Veterinary journals are, by and large, not very well respected and have relatively poor impact factors. Additionally, getting funding for projects that do not have a high translational component (that is, projects that focus mainly on veterinary species) is quite difficult, and something to consider if you plan to become a PI.

Now, say you have a more "basic science" i.e. immunology/molecular biology PhD? Good luck finishing that in 4 years. However, you will likely have more publications in higher-tier journals (and more in-depth lab skills) and this will be looked at much more favorable in the research community. If you want to become an independent investigator, this will put you in a much better position for extramural funding (which is pretty much your lifeblood).

 

[supershorty]

I'm curious at to how that second option works.

What your research does not go as planned and you haven't finished enough in 4 years (which, for a PhD in biomedical sciences, is very quick) for the PhD, either in terms of production or publications? Or is your advisor required to let you go? Do they give DVM/PhD students "easier" projects so that there is a better chance they will finish in four years?

That seems like it would put students in the terrible position of, if things don't go smoothly, automatically graduating with a lackluster dissertation (and/or potentially fewer pubs as well, which is - sadly - a hugely important credential in the research world).

I think the 4 years is probably a goal, rather than a set deadline... It was pretty much the norm at all of the programs I applied to - this was the only school I applied to that mentioned having the consecutive option, too.

My PhD is in comparative & molecular biosciences so I guess I'll find out.

 

[KCgophervet]

Total random aside but the concurrent option baffles me. I can't imagine doing 2 years of vet school, then taking multiple years off, and then coming back to finish the vet school portion. Kudos to those who can do it but I don't think I could handle that much time passing between concepts.

 

[SummerTheLynx]

My program is probably the weirdest, by far but it's an interesting concept. I am completing two year and 1/4, and then devoting full time to PhD. Essentially, I am doing all of my didactic and then launching into my research full time. During the time I do research, I think I do something like 12/13 rounds per week to try and keep my clinical chops up. Then, I do all of my clinics over the summer, split across three summers (8 months research, 4 months clinics). Currently, I am completing PhD courses and doing lab rotations while doing DVM coursework, which is bordering on insanity, and will be done with PhD didactics in 2 years. We are required to get out 4 first authorships, 1 biomedical sciences and 3 informatics, as well as multiple other authorships and data tool release. The combined program takes 6 years, with 5 years devoted to the PhD (the last 5) and 5 years devoted to the DVM (the first 5) with of course there being overlap present.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

My program is probably the weirdest, by far but it's an interesting concept. I am completing two year and 1/4, and then devoting full time to PhD. Essentially, I am doing all of my didactic and then launching into my research full time. During the time I do research, I think I do something like 12/13 rounds per week to try and keep my clinical chops up. Then, I do all of my clinics over the summer, split across three summers (8 months research, 4 months clinics). Currently, I am completing PhD courses and doing lab rotations while doing DVM coursework, which is bordering on insanity, and will be done with PhD didactics in 2 years. We are required to get out 4 first authorships, 1 biomedical sciences and 3 informatics, as well as multiple other authorships and data tool release. The combined program takes 6 years, with 5 years devoted to the PhD (the last 5) and 5 years devoted to the DVM (the first 5) with of course there being overlap present.

Jesus Christ. Four first authorships in a basic science PhD is a tall order. Although 3 informatics helps, you can bump those out easier.

 

[supershorty]

Total random aside but the concurrent option baffles me. I can't imagine doing 2 years of vet school, then taking multiple years off, and then coming back to finish the vet school portion. Kudos to those who can do it but I don't think I could handle that much time passing between concepts.

MD/PhD does it this way too - I think the original purpose of the 2-4-2 setup is so that your clinical training is right at the end before you go out and be a real doctor. It also may serve to hold you to finishing the PhD, maybe? So people don't finish the medical degree, which is partially or fully funded by the dual program, and then skip out?

 

[Foxhunter]

I'm not the one to ask if you want a cheery perspective.

 

[Foxhunter]

If I had it all to do over again right now, I don't think I would do it. I've watched the people in my application class become doctors and start internships/residencies while I'm chugging along on research and TAing undergrads who may finish vet school before me. 4 years down and I don't have a lot to show for it.

Once I'm done with my program, I will probably say that I would do it all again and it was all worth it. There are cool things. I've made great friends. I do like research more days than not. I've learned to be passionate about things I never found interesting until recently. I have been able to keep up pretty well with a lot of the clinical stuff. I'll still be *only 31* when I'm done hopefully. Graduate school schedule doesn't suck. I've been told I'm a shoe-in for USDA/government jobs when I graduate.

 

[Foxhunter]

I see my enthusiasm killed this thread.....

 

[Foxhunter]

MD/PhD does it this way too - I think the original purpose of the 2-4-2 setup is so that your clinical training is right at the end before you go out and be a real doctor. It also may serve to hold you to finishing the PhD, maybe? So people don't finish the medical degree, which is partially or fully funded by the dual program, and then skip out?

My program is:
- 1 year grad school
- 2 years vet school
- ??? years to complete PhD
- 2 years vet school
(generally 7-9 years total)

The way I see it is you do all your classroom years (plus get in-state tuition), then do all your research years, then do all your clinical/medical years. It's actually quite logical when you think about it that way.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Reading all of this information has been super helpful! I'm applying to vet school this year with quite a bit of cell/molecular biology research experience. As of now, I would like to specialize in some facet of surgery but also stay involved in the lab.

What are the pros and cons of doing a Master's thesis instead of a PhD? What do people often do upon graduation when they have a masters? Thank you for any and all insight!

If you get a surgery residency you may well have a Master's program built into the residency itself. It is usually a relatively "easy" (as in easily integrated with your residency work) MS involving clinical research. E.g. if you were specializing in equine surgery, your MS might be a composite of clinical studies assaying different aftercare techniques for colic surgeries, or different orthopedic approaches, etc. So usually very little benchtop work, although I know some of the ortho people who are interested in stem cell stuff for tendon repair do a little. At least, that is what I have seen in almost all our residents here.

Now, if you're taslking about doing a basic science MS after vet school, that is a waste of time IMO. It will get you precisely diddly-squat unless you want to remain purely in clinical veterinary research - in that case, it could potentially be a feather in your cap. However, major biomedical research organizations and universities won't care - they want PhDs. An MPH on the other hand is a different story, and can indeed open up some opportunities.

 

[Meadowlark]

I'm actually taking a year off from vet school to do research for a basic science MS. I'm basically doing it as a trial run. I want to do pathology, and I know most pathologists have PhDs, but I'm skeptical that I want to go that route. I figured this way I could get my feet wet in research without having to commit to a whole PhD program. Also, I'm just really excited about my project and I want to go ahead and complete it even if I never do research again afterwards! I agree an MS would probably be a waste of time for someone who knows exactly what they want to do, but I think it will be helpful for me personally.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm actually taking a year off from vet school to do research for a basic science MS. I'm basically doing it as a trial run. I want to do pathology, and I know most pathologists have PhDs, but I'm skeptical that I want to go that route. I figured this way I could get my feet wet in research without having to commit to a whole PhD program. Also, I'm just really excited about my project and I want to go ahead and complete it even if I never do research again afterwards! I agree an MS would probably be a waste of time for someone who knows exactly what they want to do, but I think it will be helpful for me personally.

Ah hah. Another potential convert to the dark side.

(I'm in pathology - if you have any questions about the field shoot me a PM, I'm more than happy to help )

As a caveat, a large number of path (anatomic, at least) residency programs are combined programs (residency + PhD so 6-7 years total), so that is something to consider. I don't think it is quite as prevalent in clin path.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Thank you both for the feed back! That makes me feel better that those paths try to incorporate a masters/PhD with residency. Maybe I'll discover I love clinical research? Who knows.

Sorry if this is ignorant, but how does an MPH open more doors? Is it more for government positions? I understand expanding your knowledge in disease control and public policies.. but I feel like those topics should be taught in vet school too?

An MPH definitely makes you more marketable for certain government jobs, yes, as well administrative positions. Public health and stuff is usually briefly covered in vet school, but nearly as intensively as it would be in an MPH.

 

[Glammyre]

Thank you both for the feed back! That makes me feel better that those paths try to incorporate a masters/PhD with residency. Maybe I'll discover I love clinical research? Who knows.

Sorry if this is ignorant, but how does an MPH open more doors? Is it more for government positions? I understand expanding your knowledge in disease control and public policies.. but I feel like those topics should be taught in vet school too?

Some aspects of public health (sensitivity and specificity, zoonotic diseases, food safety, etc) are covered in veterinary medicine. Most of statistics, intermediate to advanced epidemiology, and the human social structure underlying public health is not. Because of that, I think an MPH will help if you want a job in public health. I'd be happy to PM about it more, if you want.

If you're interested in getting both DVM and MPH, there are combined-degree programs available that will pay for some of your tuition (usually the MPH part). I don't have a lot of details about those since I'm not in one (didn't realize I wanted to work in public health until I started veterinary school). @epivetlove, do you know more about these programs? You're the other person I remember whose interested in both.

 

[Glammyre]

Thank you both for the feed back! That makes me feel better that those paths try to incorporate a masters/PhD with residency. Maybe I'll discover I love clinical research? Who knows.

Sorry if this is ignorant, but how does an MPH open more doors? Is it more for government positions? I understand expanding your knowledge in disease control and public policies.. but I feel like those topics should be taught in vet school too?

Also, happy One Health day!

 

[epivetlove]

I don't know much about combined programs because I came into vet school having already completed my MPH. It certainly made our Public Health/Epi and Infectious Diseases courses more enjoyable/easier.

Sorry that I couldn't be of more help!

 

[vetmedhead]

I'm in an MPH/DVM program right now. What questions did you all have?