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Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by EvilLost, Sep 5, 2014.
There are several MD+PhD and DVM+PhD programs out there.
Are there any DVM+MD joint programs?
I don't think so, seeing as DVM and MD are two separate fields. It'd be difficult to go to both vet and med school at the same time.
No, because you would die.
HAhahaha ^best answer
There are comparative medicine residencies you can do after vet school that focus a lot of animal models of human disease. But MD and DVM? No. I do know people who have done one after the other (which I think is bonkers for many reasons) but combined would be almost impossible.
Pretty sure you could do it, WTF. Report back in 4 years.
Hah, yeah, it does. It's called 'I go to vet school and my boyfriend goes to med school'. So together we are [future] DVM+MD.
Could you imagine the debt?
Well, at least he has a prayer of having the income to manage it! I know two out of state people at UMN CVM who are accumulating the vet
Debt together. (We're an absurdly expensive school in-state, much less out-of-state.) That's just .... Ugh.
People are icky.
You'll note I didn't volunteer.
I'll volunteer if you pay for it. I mean, I have a pretty solid ortho foundation now at least.
I've wondered the same thing, as it's just adding one more species to treat (and a vet with primate experience wouldn't have much difficulty). My passion is medicine regardless of species, I'm glad to see there are other students interested in the same!
It is more than just adding one more species. There are many differences between human med and animal med when it comes to politics, regulations, education, etc.
One huge difference? Euthanasia! It was discussed in our interprofessional education class last year and I couldn't believe how close-minded the students, in other colleges, at my diverse, accepting, well-rounded university were.
Let's wait and see what my future boss offers me for an income, eh?
Saying that is it just "adding one more species" is a huge and completely undeserved slight to human medicine.
A vet with primate experience "wouldn't have much difficulty'?
Do you have any idea of the detail of training MDs/DOs go into? Obviously not, or else you would realize the hilarious ignorance of that statement.
Vet medicine is breadth at the expense of depth. MD/DO is the opposite. They have levels of training in that species that vets could never hope to have outside of residency (fyi, internships and residencies are required for MDs/Dos, not so for us). Having many friends in human medicine, I find that comment to be extremely insulting.
Wow.. didn't know people can get so aggravated here? For one thing, being a good doctor involves much more than training received in pursuit of a DVM/MD/DO, and there are vets that do residencies and study more in depth. A hypothetical veterinarian that treats primates and has some human clinical experience, would likely be able to make it through medical school. I've read of a few DVM/MD holders, there would likely be interest in such a program. I don't think anyone mentioned the length of a dual degree program, so one that took even year or so off from the years it takes to acquire a MD and DVM separately, would be worth it. From what you wrote it would seem like I suggested a primate vet could just work on humans straight off without studying human medicine; I'd never suggest such an idea.
The real question is why you would need an md/DVM and what it would do for you. The answer is not much other than waste money
I actually read about a guy (this was quite a few years ago) who actually did get both an MD and a DVM. He got one degree (likely an MD) and set up practice in a small rural town and worked for a number of years. Apparently there was a need for the other type of doctor in that town as well, so he returned to school and got the second degree (pretty sure the DVM this time). He actually set up practices that were next door to each other. So he worked as a vet on certain days, and worked as a physician on other days. Not sure how he handled emergencies...
Just to put some things in perspective and to touch on the breadth vs. depth, many zoos bring in human physicians when dealing with a challenging primate case (particularly cardiac cases...a cardiologist will be consulted). Not to say that veterinarians aren't capable, but they value the primate experience human physicians get every day. I don't think the reverse would work the same way. You might get a veterinarian being consulted for a zoonotic disease case in a human, but it is unrealistic to say a veterinarian who works on chimps/gorillas is qualified to work with humans.
Please see my second post.
exceptions that prove the rule
Yeah, he just did it to satisfy the needs of his small, rural community - probably one of those places that can't support a full-time vet, but still needs veterinary care available.
I also know 1 person with both. However, he got his degrees overseas and is only licensed for vet med in the US. he did it because at the college he went to (non-accredited) it only added 1-2 years.
It seemed like you were inferring that a vet with primate experience could make a fine MD on their own, not whether or not they could make it in medical school, hence my incredulity. My apologies for misinterpreting.
And yes, I am one of those vets who pursued a residency, so I am well aware of the more detailed trainings we can pursue. I think it will become more and more common as the profession expands.
I don't see why one would need both degrees. I mean, it sounds cool in theory at first, until you realize that you would be in school for literally 11+ years post-Bachelors if you did them separately.
Zoonotic disease as an interest would be easier to pursue through a DVM/MPH than anything else. The only thing I could think of that would utilize a MD/DVM would be comparative anatomy studies or something equally specialized and ridiculous. In those cases, you would want to work with an expert in the other field anyway.
I think that's the issue - the only place I could see an MD/DVM being viable at all would be in comparative medicine, which is, for the most part, very research heavy (i.e. non clinical) field.
The problem with THAT is, both MD and DVM are purely clinical degrees - they are for practicing medicine, not pure academic pursuits. You would need even MORE additional training if you wanted to be anything other than an occasional consultant - i.e. a PhD.
IMO, a better route to take if you wanted to "do both" would be DVM, residency in comparative med, and maybe graduate degree in top of that.
It would make sense/be worth it if one wanted to practice medicine in both fields.
how would you do this? Realistically in this day and age, I mean. And then would it really be worth $500,000 in loans?
The problem is in both fields, use it or loose it still applies. Getting a DVM takes four years of school and then you would have to begin again and do 4 years for MD. After MD, you must do the years of internship and residency, which to my knowledge, don't have lovely 9-5 hours where you can still be in veterinary clinics during weekends etc. It takes years to gain the actual experience necessary to be competent, and as others have said, there is a sacrifice for the jack of all trades versus in-depth knowledge. Why would you want to be a mediocre or even poor quality MD/DVM that has great gaps in knowledge instead of a great DVM or MD?
Unless it's changed since my buddy went through, there are many places you can practice as an MD without being residency trained.
It's pretty much a de facto requirement, and I think pretty much everyone DOES a residency, but in a technical sense it isn't "required".
Just as a tangent to this otherwise butthurt thread.
Plus, human medicine and veterinary medicine, while they share a great deal of common science, are very different in actual practice.
Almost two completely different fields when it comes to treatment and management of patients even though the biological processes underneath many diseases are similar. Human medicine is much more advanced due to funding available for research and development, which is severely lacking in veterinary medicine. Treatments, protocols for management of diseases, and even many drugs can be vastly different due to patients finances (aka insurance).
Hm, I was under the impression that residency was the norm and that while you *could* practice in a place without having done a residency, it was a sort of bottom-of-the-barrell type deal that no one actually wants to do. Might have to ask some of the Lounge peeps.
Nope, I think that's absolutely correct. Which means it's not required.
Sigh. I clearly failed - I was trying to be pedantic to lighten things up. Soz.
Nah, it wasn't failure on your part, it is just me being exhausted today, heh.
Make sense for that individual person. It would not make sense for the university who would provide that degree.... it was essentially be a degree program for a handful of people at most. Not worth the university to spend the $$$ and if they decided to the tuition for that dual degree would be more expensive as not as many people in the program to distribute the costs.
The only way I could see it working clinically is if you were MD full time and did relief work as a vet. I vaguely remember someone mentioning they knew someone who did that. But still, the money and time involved....definitely not a sound financial decision. Plus I have no idea how you would be able to keep up with the most current medical practice in both fields.
well no one said they were good at either field
Not to mention I think you'd have a hard time convincing the general public to come see a vet for their medical needs, even if you did have an MD degree too. Even as a vet student with a huge amount of respect for both professions, I don't think I would be okay with knowing that your hand was in a cow's rectum two hours before you came to examine my sore throat.
Could be worse... their hand could have been up a human's rectum trying to fish out a foreign body....
Very true. I'm also being a bit hypocritical here because I am totally the type of person who will do a bovine rectal, give my hands a quick rinse, and then go eat lunch.
But at the end of the day, I want my doctor to be an expert in human health. Not someone who is a jack of all trades and a master of none.
There was an MD in my vet class, but as far as I know, he never practiced as a vet after graduation. I'm not sure why he chose to go to vet school years after becoming a DVM - perhaps he thought he wanted something different? He was probably about 40 when he graduated vet school.
It's just one more animal on top of the DVM, why not?
Seriously though, who in their right mind would do this... You could never be proficient in either field, and you'd have to operate in two completely separate practice environments simultaneously to maintain what little skills you still managed to hold onto post-residency.
I wouldn't want my personal physician to be an MD-DVM because anyone who do that intentionally to themselves is bat**** crazy. I mean, I can see it as a career change after you do one for a while and decide you'd rather do the other, but to set out to do both because you think it'd be golly neat cool to treat everything? That's dumb.
I do miss the jack-of-all-trades MD GP, though. Nowadays everyone in human medicine is such a super nichified expert that nobody focuses on the entire health of the person and you don't get very good holistic care. An MD (generalized) relative of mine is a pediatric (specialty) intensive care (more specialized) cardiologist (super specialized). That's great; it's not that we don't need those experts, but we need people who can integrate all the specialties for a particular individual.
Human medicine needs to re-invent the GP as the "health care manager" - someone who can be your overall health care 'expert' that interacts with the various specialists to help you make sound decisions. And it should be an MD, not some under-trained, overconfident PA. (Sorry. After encountering enough of them, I am absolutely not a fan of PAs. What a horrible, horrible decision to start shifting primary care to PAs.)
Anyway. Totally tangential rant over.
And definitely unfortunate. When my grandfather was hospitalized, it was literally impossible to get an internist to see him because he was being housed in the neurology ward.
I realize that this is an old thread, but I wanted to add to it.
I'm one of those ba*-**** crazy MD/DVMs. I am a family physician (but also am trained/boarded in emergency medicine), and also a wildlife veterinarian (DVM, and a DVSc in zoo/wildlife medicine & pathology). The bread-and-butter career is as a family doc, but I also keep up with the wildlife stuff and serve as the consulting vet at the local wildlife rehab facility.
I did the MD first and racked up the commensurate boatload of debt from that degree. I then did 18 months of a general surgery residency and realized during it that I still wanted to go back to vet school, so switched to family med/emerg med since that was a better career choice if I wanted to work while I went to vet school. I did not go into further debt for my vet degree. Instead, I worked part-time during the academic year and full-time during the summer as an ER doc at the local hospital and at peripheral rural hospitals during evenings & weekends when I could fit it in. After my DVM, I went straight into a 3-yr zoo/wildlife residency (combined with the DVSc degree).
My patients love that I'm a dual MD-DVM. So does my lawyer brother whose only advice to me was, "don't mix up the samples!"
Anyway, it's doable to be both an MD & DVM, it's rewarding, it's interesting, and in my opinion it's a fun way to live a life that we only get one chance at living!
I understand you said you worked during the summers/ part time during school but my god, friend, how much debt do you have??? (Rhetorical question, not asking for you to tell us that)
I guess the helpful thing is having the MD money to pay for the vet (especially the wildlife vet) stuff, but dang. I can't imagine the fiscal cost of med school and vet school.
I really admire you, and I don't think you're bat**** crazy. As someone who loves education, I can completely relate with wanting to do something like this. I totally would, too, if I had any human medical background, but I don't at this point - that, and my heart just wouldn't really be in it on the human med side. It still sounds like a really rewarding career, and it sounds like you're happy with your decision to pursue it. Thank you for sharing
Doesn't mean he still didn't have med school debt, accumulated interest during med school residency, vet school, and zoo residency.