DVM/PhD Experience

[GraceEarth]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

I am interested in understanding the lifestyle of a DVM/PhD student. Any sights from current or prospective students are welcome. Please share your experiences!! (I applied this fall (2015)). What kind of jobs are available for DVM/Phd graduates?

 

[Lab Vet]

The DVM is a clinical degree. The PhD is a research degree. If you're serious about doing [basic science] research as a career (i.e. more than just a fleeting interest, or as a collaborator), you need a PhD. Although there are clinicians (both MDs and DVMs) who are involved in research and don't have PhDs, these folks typically participate in clinical trials, a very different ball of wax than basic science. Alternatively, they did a fellowship (at least on the human side) which required significant training in research. I worked for a human surgeon who was constantly involved in clinical trials and had an active, NIH funded basic science laboratory. This is a rarity- not the norm. This individual did not have a PhD next to his name, but had extensive experience in research. A clinical degree won't teach you experimental design, statistical analysis, or most importantly- how to write successful grants and publish manuscripts. At career senior status, research scientists are writers- they write grants, and they publish papers. Their technicians and graduate students do the leg work of the projects. I've said it many times on SDN- if you don't like to write, do not become a scientist. Grants and publications will get you a job, and are the only factors that will keep you in that position. If you're not prolific in publishing, you'll be out of work.

There are a lot of things you could do with a dual degree. You could be a clinician, and do clinical research and basic science on the side. Just remember- clinical trials may be part and parcel with your clinical responsibilities. To do basic science, you need federal/private grants- that takes time away from your clinical responsibilities. You could work in academia, government, or pharma. You could teach. Opportunities abound.

If you want to do basic science, I don't recommend getting a clinical degree at all. You can still research animal biology without a DVM, but you won't have the research training to make you successful without the PhD.

I'm not a dual degree candidate. I obtained my research training prior to veterinary school, and actually bailed on my PhD in my eighth year in the program (left with a Master's).

The PhD is not something to enter into blindly. Although the details of the experience are highly dependent on the candidate and his/her adviser/committee, the degree is generally a very hard, lonely slog. Although necessary for a serious career in research, I have no idea why an individual who wants to be a clinician would pursue the PhD. Functionally, this makes very little sense.

Good luck!

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

You could be a clinician, and do clinical research and basic science on the side. Just remember- clinical trials may be part and parcel with your clinical responsibilities. To do basic science, you need federal/private grants- that takes time away from your clinical responsibilities. You could work in academia, government, or pharma. You could teach. Opportunities abound.

Although necessary for a serious career in research, I have no idea why an individual who wants to be a clinician would pursue the PhD. Functionally, this makes very little sense.

So this is kinda my goal. I have worked in a dairy science practice that was mainly funded by lab work: milk testing, cultures, bacterial susceptibility, tissue testing... but they also did all the consulting (for nutrition, disease management, etc) and we're contracted on as the emergency and general care veterinarians. They performed trials of vaccines, supplements, and management techniques.

While I would be very, very happy as a mixed animal practice clinician, I also really like the hard science and benefit to the industry of research into improvements of the dairy cattle (not as much milk production because we have broken the cow in other places to reach the level of production in some breeds.)

I also have an Embryology background so I would like to run a basic dairy testing lab, an embryo collection and transfer lab, and contract on for consulting and clinical care and if I could make it work, have a mixed animal practice. This would need to be a place that had multiple vets that all worked together, and maybe I'd end up like my old mentor and rarely see on-farm time... but I feel like this approach would allow me to make the most direct difference to the cow and the cattle man. I can work on the genetic components of strong frames, hopefully with little sacrifice in the production department. I can be in the forefront of genetic turnover with genetics that aren't just new, but come from lines with a reason for passing on traits... or I can argue with dairy men till my face turns blue that they want a cow with good feet over the one with the giant udder that will sag before she turns 5. (It will probably go that way.)

I realize there is a lot of stuff in there that is unlikely to go my way... but it's my plan for now.

(Why does my autocorrect think it knows what I'm talking about more than I do? Working on this... sigh)

 

[Lab Vet]

So this is kinda my goal. I have worked in a dairy science practice that was mainly funded by lab work: milk testing, cultures, bacterial susceptibility, tissue testing... but they also did all the consulting (for nutrition, disease management, etc) and we're contracted on as the emergency and general care veterinarians. They performed trials of vaccines, supplements, and management techniques.

While I would be very, very happy as a mixed animal practice clinician, I also really like the hard science and benefit to the industry of research into improvements of the dairy cattle (not as much milk production because we have broken the cow in other places to reach the level of production in some breeds.)

I also have an Embryology background so I would like to run a basic dairy testing lab, an embryo collection and transfer lab, and contract on for consulting and clinical care and if I could make it work, have a mixed animal practice. This would need to be a place that had multiple vets that all worked together, and maybe I'd end up like my old mentor and rarely see on-farm time... but I feel like this approach would allow me to make the most direct difference to the cow and the cattle man. I can work on the genetic components of strong frames, hopefully with little sacrifice in the production department. I can be in the forefront of genetic turnover with genetics that aren't just new, but come from lines with a reason for passing on traits... or I can argue with dairy men till my face turns blue that they want a cow with good feet over the one with the giant udder that will sag before she turns 5. (It will probably go that way.)

I realize there is a lot of stuff in there that is unlikely to go my way... but it's my plan for now.

(Why does my autocorrect think it knows what I'm talking about more than I do? Working on this... sigh)

I would argue that you could do all of this without the PhD. A clinical degree (and, more importantly, subsequent experience) would give you plenty of background to do the work you've mentioned. I didn't see anything in your post about hard-core, empirical science. Unless you're committed to a career where hypothesis development, experimental design, data analysis, and scientific writing are a large part of your job, I would recommend against the PhD. A serious career in research cannot be a 'side business.' For those of you interested in research, I recommend that you check out the current federal funding rates for whatever field you're interested in. If you don't get a grant, you're not doing any science. If you don't do any science, you're not publishing- you will not get (or keep) a job. Currently, funding is running below 10% for all major fields in biology. Those are staggering odds. There are a lot of good people proposing quality work who aren't getting funded. They're also devoting close to 100% effort attempting to keep their research operation afloat (paying technicians, funding grad student projects, etc.). Before you jump headlong into a PhD, spend some serious time (like WAY more than a summer research project) understanding what full-time scientists do, and the pressures on their schedule. It's not a decision to be made lightly.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I would argue that you could do all of this without the PhD. A clinical degree (and, more importantly, subsequent experience) would give you plenty of background to do the work you've mentioned. I didn't see anything in your post about hard-core, empirical science. Unless you're committed to a career where hypothesis development, experimental design, data analysis, and scientific writing are a large part of your job, I would recommend against the PhD. A serious career in research cannot be a 'side business.' For those of you interested in research, I recommend that you check out the current federal funding rates for whatever field you're interested in. If you don't get a grant, you're not doing any science. If you don't do any science, you're not publishing- you will not get (or keep) a job. Currently, funding is running below 10% for all major fields in biology. Those are staggering odds. There are a lot of good people proposing quality work who aren't getting funded. They're also devoting close to 100% effort attempting to keep their research operation afloat (paying technicians, funding grad student projects, etc.). Before you jump headlong into a PhD, spend some serious time (like WAY more than a summer research project) understanding what full-time scientists do, and the pressures on their schedule. It's not a decision to be made lightly.

So much this.

Also be prepared to do a postdoc afterwards. Getting into the research world without one is almost an impossibility in today's climate.

I wish I could be more supportive of the DVM/PhD idea...but I really can't. They shove the whole "oh, there is such a need for vets in research blah blah" crap to us year after year, and that isn't really the reality. There are many theoretical niches DVM/PhDs could fill, but the fact of the matter is you will be passed over for a PhD with a solid postdoc or two (plus publications) under their belt every time if you want to go heavy research. It will be an uphill battle. Hell, even plain PhDs themselves...I hate to be a downer, but I cringe every time a student asks me to write them a letter for graduate school because I know how AWFUL funding and lifestyle is right now for STEM researchers.

I say this with some degree of hypocrisy, as I am doing a PhD now....but that is more for the goal of being a professor, not a primary researcher. I would never, ever be a PI in today's funding environment. No way. I've been exposed to enough of that world and it's a relatively miserable one unless you like the constant pressure of writing and submitting grants, selling yourself, scrounging for money, worrying about getting publications out to keep your job, etc.

 

[Cephal0pod]

Related question. How common is it for DVMs who have specialized to pursue a graduate degree later in their career, whether masters or PhD? I'm sure it varies between specialties, but I was curious as to what some of the overall trends might be.

 

[Starry-chan]

So much this.

Also be prepared to do a postdoc afterwards. Getting into the research world without one is almost an impossibility in today's climate.

I wish I could be more supportive of the DVM/PhD idea...but I really can't. They shove the whole "oh, there is such a need for vets in research blah blah" crap to us year after year, and that isn't really the reality. There are many theoretical niches DVM/PhDs could fill, but the fact of the matter is you will be passed over for a PhD with a solid postdoc or two (plus publications) under their belt every time if you want to go heavy research. It will be an uphill battle. Hell, even plain PhDs themselves...I hate to be a downer, but I cringe every time a student asks me to write them a letter for graduate school because I know how AWFUL funding and lifestyle is right now for STEM researchers.

I say this with some degree of hypocrisy, as I am doing a PhD now....but that is more for the goal of being a professor, not a primary researcher. I would never, ever be a PI in today's funding environment. No way. I've been exposed to enough of that world and it's a relatively miserable one unless you like the constant pressure of writing and submitting grants, selling yourself, scrounging for money, worrying about getting publications out to keep your job, etc.

Ooooh you wanna be a professor? Are you gonna teach vet students? Are you gonna teach them pathology? 🙂

 

[Lab Vet]

So much this.
I would never, ever be a PI in today's funding environment. No way. I've been exposed to enough of that world and it's a relatively miserable one unless you like the constant pressure of writing and submitting grants, selling yourself, scrounging for money, worrying about getting publications out to keep your job, etc.

Truth. Been there, done that. Never again.

 

[Lab Vet]

Related question. How common is it for DVMs who have specialized to pursue a graduate degree later in their career, whether masters or PhD? I'm sure it varies between specialties, but I was curious as to what some of the overall trends might be.

Depends. Most specialty colleges require their candidates to publish at least one (i.e. Lab Animal) if not multiple (Zoo Med) first-authored publications. Many of these residency programs have combined degree programs where you can pursue an advanced degree (MS or PhD) along with clinical training. WTF- is this your situation? Want to weigh in on this one?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ooooh you wanna be a professor? Are you gonna teach vet students? Are you gonna teach them pathology? 🙂

And make them cry, bathe in their tears, etc. All the normal prof stuff.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Depends. Most specialty colleges require their candidates to publish at least one (i.e. Lab Animal) if not multiple (Zoo Med) first-authored publications. Many of these residency programs have combined degree programs where you can pursue an advanced degree (MS or PhD) along with clinical training. WTF- is this your situation? Want to weigh in on this one?

Pathology is definitely trending towards combined residency programs culminating in a PhD. They are usually phased so you spend 3 years in residency and then 3-4 in PhD with some overlap in between. In all honesty, very few of us are happy about this because it is seen as unecessary schooling when the vast majority of us want to go into positions mostly focused in diagnostics, industry, or teaching. I know three other pathologists here doing their PhDs so we have some helpful gripe sessions.....but it is what it is. Honestly, the PhD is becoming almost the norm for any specialist who wants to teach at a vet school, even if your actual appointment is almost entirely teaching/diagnostics. I'm really hellbent on teaching, so I just have to put my head down and power through.

A lot of other residencies in various areas usually have a built-in Master's degree, but as far as I can tell it is not too intensive - usually very clinical research oriented as opposed to basic science.

 

[Starry-chan]

And make them cry, bathe in their tears, etc. All the normal prof stuff.

So then you're gonna smell like the ocean all the time. 😛 (salt water)

 

[Lupin21]

I am a current DVM/PhD student at OKstate. The way it works here is that you complete the first two years of DVM program, take 1-2 years off while getting PhD work going, finish last two DVM years, then complete PhD. I am doing the dual program because I have thoughts of going into pharma industry then possibly going into academia. My research is definitely basic science based though, not clinical like most duallies. So, I will likely be taking longer than the 3-4 years extra. I agree with what the others have stated. Do Not Recommend unless you like doing research. It is too stressful and the rewards questionable for the effort.

 

[TotesMahGoats]

I really wanted to teach and work at a school hospital as a specialist... does every specialty need the PhD to get this job, or just some?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I really wanted to teach and work at a school hospital as a specialist... does every specialty need the PhD to get this job, or just some?

Many of them. If you look at the faculty list at most vet schools, the majority of faculty are DVM, [boarded specialty], PhD. Some are MS only, and and generally only a scattering are neither. This does vary by specialty however. Internal medicine, ambulatory med, etc tend to not have so many.

A PhD is not explicitly required for every single position/specialty, but it is harder overall to get a faculty position without one (or move up in the ranks, i.e. assistant --> associate --> full). That is, it is generally either outright required in the job description itself, or not required but "highly desired" (i.e. you will most likely lose out to someone who does have one, and competition for academic positions in fierce).

You can get a faculty position without a graduate degree in the right specialty, but that will often require a dedicated networking and knowing people....the people I know who did were often hired by their home institutions so they knew everyone anyway.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I really wanted to teach and work at a school hospital as a specialist... does every specialty need the PhD to get this job, or just some?

Depends on the school. Some schools are much more research oriented while others are more clinical. If you look at the faculty list of some schools, you will see many many DVM/PhDs. For others, it's the rare faculty member. For some, it helps to have a PhD to be on faculty but you can still have a good percentage of clinical/teaching appointment. For some positions, as long as they get some minor funding here or there for clinical research, it's all good. For others, it's more dire.

Also, not all PhDs are equal, and this is even more true for MS degrees. Many of the available avenues for these degrees for DVMs really don't prepare you all that well to become a competitive PI as a researcher. At least of the DVM/PhD faculty and students/fellow I've known, very few are working on high impact work or in a lab that produces high impact work that will make them attractive for a funding source. There are so many very well trained PhDs out there dying to get funding, that there are few instances where a major funding source will want to prioritize the poorly trained DVM/PhD instead. So you really need to know what your goals are before you choose this path and be smart about how you go about it.

It's not like with the DVM where job security is pretty much the same as long as you get a DVM from an accredited school.

 

[TotesMahGoats]

I really appreciate the answers. Sometimes it's hard to dig up this information until I'm "in the trenches." I've had some independent research experience, but as an older student, I'm pretty sure I want to graduate before I'm 80 (I'm not that old, but still.). I also don't want to sound like an unrealistic idiot at any interviews I might have, if they ask me what my goals are!

 

[Starry-chan]

I really appreciate the answers. Sometimes it's hard to dig up this information until I'm "in the trenches." I've had some independent research experience, but as an older student, I'm pretty sure I want to graduate before I'm 80 (I'm not that old, but still.). I also don't want to sound like an unrealistic idiot at any interviews I might have, if they ask me what my goals are!

Understandable 🙂 Nobody is born knowing everything about everything.

 

[Kittenette]

I am interested in understanding the lifestyle of a DVM/PhD student. Any sights from current or prospective students are welcome. Please share your experiences!! (I applied this fall (2015)). What kind of jobs are available for DVM/Phd graduates?

I am a current DVM/PhD at CSU, wrapping up my first semester! How our timeline works: 1st year is lab rotations/grad courses, then it's the first 2 years of vet school, then we go back into finishing the PhD for 2-3 years, and then wrap up with the last 2 years of vet school. Total length is 7-8 years long. There's a lot of "jumping" between both degrees, which I don't mind at all - I think it's a great way for us to integrate our research training alongside our veterinary academic and clinical training. I've always loved school, learning, and doing research, so I feel this program's perfect for me!

From my understanding, there's a variety of jobs available to DVM/PhDs. Government, the CDC, industry, academia, private practice, NASA, etc. Alumni of the CSU DVM/PhD program have done an array of post-grad options, from private practice/residencies/surgery to academic/postdoc positions at universities. As for myself, I am not entirely sure what job I'll ultimately pursue - I'd like to obtain a faculty position and run a lab that does basic science and clinical trials, but I don't know what the funding situation or job market for research will be like in 7-8 years. Plan B is practicing small animal or lab animal medicine. Either way, I'm keeping my options open, and there's plenty of them! You won't be jobless as a DVM/PhD, if that's your concern. 🙂

Good luck with your vet/grad school future!

 

[IZZY222]

Current DVM/PhD student at Miss State. Here you have 2 options: 1) Start your DVM first (4 yrs) with part of your 4th yr in research then hit up your PhD, 2) PhD for 2 yrs, DVM for 4, PhD 1-2 yrs after. It all depends on funding, what your direction is, etc. I'm interested in Extension and research trials with USDA. My undergrad gave me experience in both. I chose route 1 because I'm in epi/immunology and needed to get samples over a couple of years.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also, not all PhDs are equal, and this is even more true for MS degrees. Many of the available avenues for these degrees for DVMs really don't prepare you all that well to become a competitive PI as a researcher. At least of the DVM/PhD faculty and students/fellow I've known, very few are working on high impact work or in a lab that produces high impact work that will make them attractive for a funding source. There are so many very well trained PhDs out there dying to get funding, that there are few instances where a major funding source will want to prioritize the poorly trained DVM/PhD instead. So you really need to know what your goals are before you choose this path and be smart about how you go about it.

It's not like with the DVM where job security is pretty much the same as long as you get a DVM from an accredited school.

This is a big issue. Quality and time.

In order to complete a PhD in ~3 years - which is basically unheard of nowadays for someone with no prior experience or class credit, the average range is around 5-6 years in STEM fields - you are most likely doing low impact work and will likely not have a publication record or grant writing experience strong enough to qualify to be hired as a PI (or sometimes even postdoc level at competitive institutions) once you finish. Even doing one in 4 years, especially broken up into pieces, is kinda pushing it for someone who straight out of undergrad (or at least close to that, as most DVM/PhD trackers are). It's a risk. Also why a postdoc after a DVM/PhD is becoming more and more essential if you want to go into a primarily research track.

DVM/PhD programs to me appear to be a way to push out people with both degrees are quickly as possible. Which is fine for DVM because it is very structured - it's gonna take 4 years no matter what - not so much for a PhD because that attitude affects the quantity and impact of your research and therefore your eventual hireability. I personally encourage people who are serious about going into high impact research with both degrees to do a "full" (aka not broken up and not mixed with vet school at all) PhD after vet school, and do it at a medical school if you can.

Edit: before people get offended.....low impact and low quality are not the same thing. You can be doing perfectly good quality of research in a DVM/PhD program, but if it is low impact (and your resulting publications are low impact, aka mostly in veterinary journals and the like) you are not a highly qualified candidate for future funding at PI level (or hell, even at a postdoc level) and will therefore struggle. And a lot of the research I, like Minnerbelle, have seen DVM/PhD candidates doing is low impact work that will allow them to finish in the time allotted. I consider this as a major weakness of the combined degree considering one of its main goals is producing researchers.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

This is a big issue. Quality and time.

In order to complete a PhD in ~3 years - which is basically unheard of nowadays for someone with no prior experience or class credit, the average range is around 5-6 years in STEM fields - you are most likely doing low impact work and will likely not have a publication record or grant writing experience strong enough to qualify to be hired as a PI (or sometimes even postdoc level at competitive institutions) once you finish. Even doing one in 4 years, especially broken up into pieces, is kinda pushing it for someone who straight out of undergrad (or at least close to that, as most DVM/PhD trackers are). It's a risk. Also why a postdoc after a DVM/PhD is becoming more and more essential if you want to go into a primarily research track.

DVM/PhD programs to me appear to be a way to push out people with both degrees are quickly as possible. Which is fine for DVM because it is very structured - it's gonna take 4 years no matter what - not so much for a PhD because that attitude affects the quantity and impact of your research and therefore your eventual hireability. I personally encourage people who are serious about going into high impact research with both degrees to do a "full" (aka not broken up and not mixed with vet school at all) PhD after vet school, and do it at a medical school if you can.

Edit: before people get offended.....low impact and low quality are not the same thing. You can be doing perfectly good quality of research in a DVM/PhD program, but if it is low impact (and your resulting publications are low impact, aka mostly in veterinary journals and the like) you are not a highly qualified candidate for future funding at PI level (or hell, even at a postdoc level) and will therefore struggle. And most of the research I, like Minnerbelle, have seen DVM/PhD candidates doing is low impact work that will allow them to finish in the time allotted. I consider this as a major weakness of the combined degree considering one of its main goals is producing researchers.

Are dual residency/PhD programs similar to DVM/PhD programs, in that the research you do will most likely be low impact and pushed too quickly? I know you did your residency first, and now are pursuing your PhD separately. Did you consider any dual programs when you were first looking into residency?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Are dual residency/PhD programs similar to DVM/PhD programs, in that the research you do will most likely be low impact and pushed too quickly? I know you did your residency first, and now are pursuing your PhD separately. Did you consider any dual programs when you were first looking into residency?

These are excellent questions and I will address them tomorrow, as ironically I am finishing up a review article rn 😉 I will say that my decision to pursue my PhD after my residency was due to immediate lack of specific NIH funds + lack of labs I was interested in + not physically being able to handle the climate anymore - my residency WAS a combined program, but they didn't forbid us from going other places (or even dropping out) of the PhD portion. So I moved to as place that had a grant and stuff I wanted to do and would advance my career (i.e. mostly animal models of human disease/human clinical data rather than veterinary stuff which gets little funding and/or recognition although I still do clinical pubs on the side)

 

[Minnerbelle]

Are dual residency/PhD programs similar to DVM/PhD programs, in that the research you do will most likely be low impact and pushed too quickly?

So... Like the thing is, even as 'just a tech' for only 2 years at a research powerhouse I had two second author publications in journals with impact factors of above 4 and 6, and also had my name on three other papers in journals with impact factors of ~6. That would be difficult to achieve even if doing basic science as a DVM/PhD.

My PhD post-doc SO has publications in Neuron, Nature Neuroscience, Journal of Neuroscience, etc... (And he still doesn't think he has what it takes to become a successful PI). Even with a dedicated PhD student taking extra years beyond the 3-4 years of research commitment duel degrees require, you're not going to find a DVM neurologist with those kinds of qualifications. In fact, it would be very difficult to find a DVM outside of lab animal or pathology with that kind of publication history unless they abandoned veterinary medicine and went to pursue a PhD and became a researcher completely separate from being a veterinarian. The head of lab animal at MIT and the rodent pathologist at Harvard are extremely well published people with lots of funding, but that is the extremely rare exception.

But like the thing is, you don't necessarily need to be a respectable research monster to be a successful DVM/PhD depending on what your goals are. If becoming tenured faculty as a specialist at a teaching hospital is your goal, and gtting a PhD is just a hoop to jump through to attain that, it may very well be worth it for you. In that case, who cares if you worked under a Nobel laureate or not, or how great a molecular biologist you are. Take Mike Lappin at CSU for example, he's an extremely successful DVM/PhD who gets quite a bit of funding for clinical research , and a huge leader in his field. But it's a completely different beast if your goal is to become a researcher who is going to influence the scientific community.

 

[Starry-chan]

So... Like the thing is, even as 'just a tech' for only 2 years at a research powerhouse I had two second author publications in journals with impact factors of above 4 and 6, and also had my name on three other papers in journals with impact factors of ~6. That would be difficult to achieve even if doing basic science as a DVM/PhD.

Dang! Did you get into CSU's vet school with no trouble at all? Were they like "Please Minnerbell...please come to our school!" And you were like, "Mmmmmmmmmm okay." lol

It seems like you already had quite a pedigree by the time you applied. Also it seems like you're extremely good at learning. Did you have a 4.0 GPA? O_O

 

[Minnerbelle]

Dang! Did you get into CSU's vet school with no trouble at all? Were they like "Please Minnerbell...please come to our school!" And you were like, "Mmmmmmmmmm okay." lol

It seems like you already had quite a pedigree by the time you applied. Also it seems like you're extremely good at learning. Did you have a 4.0 GPA? O_O

That wasn't supposed to mean that I was great. More that I was only able to achieve those things because I worked for powerful people who were doing high impact work. I just lucked out. I could have worked equally hard in a little Podunk lab and things would have been very different. My PI literally had a publication per month in high impact journals (though not all of them were basic science)). There aren't that many opportunities for DVMs to get in on research like that as a part of their training, esp in institutions that are not associated with medical schools. Path and lab animal are kind of exceptions to the rule, as there are more opportunities for those people to be working with serious researchers.

I honestly didn't expect to get in. At the time of application, I don't think any of those were published seeing as I'd only been working about a year when I applied. My two major publications weren't even published until after I started vet school. One was just finally published last year. I put in a lot of work into them in the two years I was there, but it really did take 4-5 years for each project of very smart people working on them. I just happened to be lucky and was there for the juicy parts. Like really really lucky. My gpa (3.6) wasn't like stellar either. I didn't get a single solid A until senior year of undergrad.

 

[Starry-chan]

That wasn't supposed to mean that I was great. More that I was only able to achieve those things because I worked for powerful people who were doing high impact work. I just lucked out. I could have worked equally hard in a little Podunk lab and things would have been very different. My PI literally had a publication per month in high impact journals (though not all of them were basic science)). There aren't that many opportunities for DVMs to get in on research like that as a part of their training, esp in institutions that are not associated with medical schools. Path and lab animal are kind of exceptions to the rule, as there are more opportunities for those people to be working with serious researchers.

I honestly didn't expect to get in. At the time of application, I don't think any of those were published seeing as I'd only been working about a year when I applied. My two major publications weren't even published until after I started vet school. One was just finally published last year. I put in a lot of work into them in the two years I was there, but it really did take 4-5 years for each project of very smart people working on them. I just happened to be lucky and was there for the juicy parts. Like really really lucky. My gpa (3.6) wasn't like stellar either. I didn't get a single solid A until senior year of undergrad.

Wow, I woulda totally believed you if you said you had a 4.0......though 3.6 ain't bad at all 😛

All I know is, the impression that I get from your forum posts, is that you are very good at thinking things through and taking well thought out courses of action. You always come across as having everything figured out! 🙂 So that, combined with how you totally made vet school your bitch, I guess I just assumed that undergrad was your bitch too 😀

 

[Minnerbelle]

Edit: before people get offended.....low impact and low quality are not the same thing. You can be doing perfectly good quality of research in a DVM/PhD program, but if it is low impact (and your resulting publications are low impact, aka mostly in veterinary journals and the like) you are not a highly qualified candidate for future funding at PI level (or hell, even at a postdoc level) and will therefore struggle. And a lot of the research I, like Minnerbelle, have seen DVM/PhD candidates doing is low impact work that will allow them to finish in the time allotted. I consider this as a major weakness of the combined degree considering one of its main goals is producing researchers.

+1000

I seriously don't mean to diss at all, and have tremendous respect for the DVM/PhDs out there. Every one I've met has been incredibly talented. They certainly advance veterinary medicine tremendously. There is a reason why the schools that employ a great number of them are he highly ranked vet schools. (As much as we all wrinkle our noses at school rankings, there is *some* rhyme and reason to them, and this is one of them. Just not relevant to the quality of education for their DVM candidates).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Are dual residency/PhD programs similar to DVM/PhD programs, in that the research you do will most likely be low impact and pushed too quickly? I know you did your residency first, and now are pursuing your PhD separately. Did you consider any dual programs when you were first looking into residency?

Ok here we go.

Firstly, the combined residency/PhD programs are almost all in pathology, lab animal medicine, and things like micro/pharm....they are very uncommon (I've never actually heard of any but I suppose there could be some) in more clinical specialties like internal med and the like. So that limits the pool a little bit but also, like Minnerbelle said, gives you more opportunity to work in higher impact areas away from clinical medicine.

In terms of structure, the majority are such that you spend your first two years in residency like any other normal resident - you might rotate through a few labs and get exposed at most. In your third year, you start taking less clinical duty and spending more time studying for boards and, if you're in a combined program, getting into your actual research lab and doing stuff. So it is a little less broken up. However, not all programs are like this - some of them have you start research as early as your first year, which I don't think is a very good idea but that's just my opinion. Some programs also will not allow you to take boards until after you are done with both the residency portion AND the PhD, which I also don't think is that great of an idea because after 3-4 years of research, your diagnostic skills are going to be diminished. However these seem to be the minority.

I was actually in a combined program like I said. It is actually very uncommon to find a pathology residency that is NOT a combined program these days, especially anatomic. However, you were not "locked in" - if you desperately wanted to go somewhere else or changed your mind and wanted to go into industry or something, you could go. They wanted us to be happy and if that meant moving on, so be it. Then again, I was in an exceptionally supportive program.

In terms of research impact, it is really all over the board. I know some people doing animal models of human disease and some doing more veterinary-focused research, the latter of which being of lesser impact because there are simply FAR fewer funding opportunities for veterinary (i.e. animal focused) research. A lot of it is getting into the right lab with the right PI.

Of course, this also depends on your ultimate goal. Most of my colleagues in the same position as me want to go into academic jobs that are heavily teaching and diagnostics oriented, with maybe only collaborative research on the side. So the pressure to produced loads of high impact work is slightly less for us than it would be if we wanted to actually do research primarily and have our own labs.

Something that I feel needs to be emphasized in biomedical research is that something like 70% of PhDs do postdocs (and this will include DVM/PhDs since research institutions don't give much more than half a crap about your DVM because it is a clinical degree, not a research degree - it is a feather in your cap, sure, but it doesn't make you a better grant writer, publisher, or researchers which is what they care about for research faculty. (Funny story just to give people an idea also about what high-end research institutions think of your DVM - I applied to two prestigious PhD program at institutions unaffiliated with veterinary schools as "backups" in case I didn't get a residency. And was rejected from both. Despite having pubs and experience under my belt. I was pretty appalled because I was always under the impression that research institutions wanted DVMs to get involved and would jump at the chance to train one. Maybe bad luck, but that stuck with me)

E.g. Data from 2011, but look at Life Sciences:

Additionally, the number of PhDs who actually end up running their own labs and tenured professors in biological science is TINY compared to the number of PhDs awarded

Admittedly yes, this BIOLOGY and not biomedical science, the latter of which is better and has something like 20% of PhD holders getting to tenure-track positions eventually (eventually as in after 6 years of PhD work and 3-4 years of postdoc work and probably a non-tenure track position or two) - however a lot of this depends on impact, and as straight biology research tends to be less impactful than biomedical, and veterinary/animal related research (which a lot of DVM/PhD student do) is less impactful than human-centric biomedical research, it's likely comparable or at least in between - so a risky return on investment.

In summary.....I know I sound like total doom and gloom here. I know I sound like I am dissuading people from doing the DVM/PhD period. That isn't what I am doing here. I am trying to inject some reality in here because like many people in that track I was fed all the lines about how there are so many jobs for DVM/PhDs and everyone will want you.....and if you sticking with teaching positions and certain industry fields, that may be true in certain circles...but if you really want a research-heavy career and to run your own lab and things like that there is a LOT more in play, is is an absolute CUTTHROAT environment right now.

You need to be prepared by that by being VERY careful about the impact of the projects you pick, the quality of your faculty mentor, etc. Getting a PhD in 3 years studying a viral disease in chickens and having publications in JAVMA, versus getting a PhD in 5 years in human disease/animal models of human disease and having publications in things like the Journal of Immunology? The second person will be chosen pretty much every time for a research/tenure-track faculty position.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Something that I feel needs to be emphasized in biomedical research is that something like 70% of PhDs do postdocs (and this will include DVM/PhDs since research institutions don't give much more than half a crap about your DVM because it is a clinical degree, not a research degree - it is a feather in your cap, sure, but it doesn't make you a better grant writer, publisher, or researchers which is what they care about for research faculty. (Funny story just to give people an idea also about what high-end research institutions think of your DVM - I applied to two prestigious PhD program at institutions unaffiliated with veterinary schools as "backups" in case I didn't get a residency. And was rejected from both. Despite having pubs and experience under my belt. I was pretty appalled because I was always under the impression that research institutions wanted DVMs to get involved and would jump at the chance to train one. Maybe bad luck, but that stuck with me)

This is exactly what I encountered when trying to get into a PhD in pharmacology/toxicology at medical schools in the late 1990s. Also encountered similar rejection from wildlife biology PhD programs where supposedly DVM is a plus. I was told by a DVM/PhD in pathology working in wildlife health that my DVM training was not worth much compared to the training of the wildlife biology/ecology grad students in wildlife health.

 

[jestry]

As someone interested in doing a lab animal residency, thank you guys so much for your honesty and willingness to share your opinions. Assuming you didn't go the PhD route, and just wanted to collaborate and be involved in whatever research projects other people headed, do you think there would be a difference in doing a masters with a residency vs a residency that didn't include a degree?

WTF can you elaborate on what you mean by "certain circles or industries" where DVM/PhDs are wanted (aside from I guess you already mentioned academia).

 

[TotesMahGoats]

I'd like to thank everyone again for their incredible insight in this thread. It's invaluable for some of us looking into these paths (like myself), and I appreciate it!

Similar to jestry's question, is there any benefit to the master's degree/residency programs?

(Excuse any typos... my fingers and phone refuse to cooperate.)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As someone interested in doing a lab animal residency, thank you guys so much for your honesty and willingness to share your opinions. Assuming you didn't go the PhD route, and just wanted to collaborate and be involved in whatever research projects other people headed, do you think there would be a difference in doing a masters with a residency vs a residency that didn't include a degree?

WTF can you elaborate on what you mean by "certain circles or industries" where DVM/PhDs are wanted (aside from I guess you already mentioned academia).

I'd like to thank everyone again for their incredible insight in this thread. It's invaluable for some of us looking into these paths (like myself), and I appreciate it!

Similar to jestry's question, is there any benefit to the master's degree/residency programs?

(Excuse any typos... my fingers and phone refuse to cooperate.)

I think a lot of residencies now automatically include a non-thesis master's degree. If you just wanted to be a collaborator I don't think it would matter - it would depend on the exact description of the position you are applying to though. For lab animal, I am pretty sure that having it would be very helpful though since lab animal is so closely intertwined with research. Lab animal residencies often have a publication requirement also in order to finish and sit for boards anyway. For small animal/large animal it may not be as big of a deal, although again, if you want to stay in academia....they like having those extra letters after your name. Usually the MS does not add any more time on to the residency - you still complete in 3 years and you do clinical research on the side. So it's extra work sure, but it won't delay finishing too much unless something goes seriously wrong.

For the second question, yeah, academia is one (or at least vet schools). They all like DVM/PhD specialists for clinical professor positions. Public health and government are other avenues, although those can be a bit difficult to weed through nowadays. I just wanted to drive home that the idea that after you finish the DVM/PhD program and you want to go into primarily research, people aren't going to be banging down your door to give you a job (no more than the average PhD graduate) unless you have pubs, grant writing experiences, and a postdoc/fellowship or two. When I meant certain circles might get all excited about the DVM part, I wasn't really talking about specific places in general - more like certain groups of people that for whatever reason are willing to give us a shot. Another reason networking is SO, SO important, and something that is not emphasized enough in research and the PhD curriculum.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think also for lab animal, the exact program you decide to do your residency in and how that program meshes with your career goals is going to matter much more. You need some sort of first author pub to get boarded so all programs will have you doing some research regardless.

Some programs are much more clinically oriented vs. research oriented. There are some that are even 2 years rather than 3. Some are even funded by the NIH as a post-doc and you actually get a better salary for it. I looked into doing lab animal during my 4th year and externed at a couple of places, and I was really surprised at the differences in program format/experience. I decided against it when multiple graduating residents told me to run because jobs were scarce, and being geographically restricted I felt I had better chances as a dog/cat vet.

@jjohnston would be a great person to talk to. She is finishing up her lab animal residency now I think. I also know a couple of former sdn'ers and non affiliated people in lab animal residencies currently so I can get you in touch with them if you'd like.

 

[RedWall]

very interesting read 🙂 is it true that DVM/PhD puts you in a better position to tackle animal models for human disease as they advertise (vs MD, MD/PhD, PhD)? Or do employers not care about that

 

[Minnerbelle]

very interesting read 🙂 is it true that DVM/PhD puts you in a better position to tackle animal models for human disease as they advertise (vs MD, MD/PhD, PhD)? Or do employers not care about that

Depends on what you mean by 'animal models' and what you mean by 'employers.'

If you're talking about genetically engineered rodent models, then what you really need are people trained well in the designing of that model, then those that validate and characterize that model, and finally those that get relevant data on the model. For a vast majority of cases, a DVM really doesn't confer much advantage in these cases because let's face it, how much does a DVM help with any of that? Most of us can't adequately even clinically care for rodents all that well, nevermind any of the above. It's the quality of PhD training and post-doc that is way more valuable for this type of research.

If you're talking about naturally occurring clinical disease in animals (hereditary or not) as models for the same disease in people, then yes to an extent. There aren't too many people with colonies of 'lab animals' to study these, though they exist. Most of the time, it's more in the form of clinical research in a teaching hospital environment. Either way, they tend to be carried out by faculty positions in veterinary schools.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I will say, when I was in between jobs and in despair, I expanded my search and found one job that was specifically looking for a DVM or DVM/PhD researcher to do tumor xenografts in mice, which is exactly the thing I know how to do pretty well. If we're looking for a DVM specifically, there are very few people with my level of experience in that, especially if you consider the genetic manipulation of the graft itself. Why they were specifically looking for a DVM I have no idea. Because there are thousands upon thousands of PhDs who are more than qualified to do that and would do a much better job.

So I guess it's not unheard of... But it's very very rare. Something was kind of fishy about that.

 

[xTineTH]

Why they were specifically looking for a DVM I have no idea. Because there are thousands upon thousands of PhDs who are more than qualified to do that and would do a much better job.

So I guess it's not unheard of... But it's very very rare. Something was kind of fishy about that.

Did you end up applying for/taking that job? Or did you find out otherwise why they were looking for a DVM?
One of my current mentors is a DVM that specializes in tumor xenografts, and it so happens that his PI is a DVM/PhD so I can see why a preference might be present.

I am doing a postbac research fellowship right now, with the intention of getting into vet school and then hopefully continuing into research later on. Originally I was toying with the idea of either a DVM/PhD, or getting my PhD afterwards, but after reading through this thread I'm probably leaning toward the latter, if I am still interested in it by the time I finish. I'm interested in clinical trial work, particularly in Oncology, but from someone who knows the field very well, he suggested that I may not need a PhD if I wanted to help run clinical trials at a vet school. Though being boarded is still necessary. If I wanted to run my own lab, then that's a whole other story. Based on what everyone has said about the responsibilities of a PI, I'm not sure I am interested in that anyways.
Anywho, thank you again to everyone! It's been very informative.

 

[Starry-chan]

If you're talking about naturally occurring clinical disease in animals (hereditary or not) as models for the same disease in people, then yes to an extent. There aren't too many people with colonies of 'lab animals' to study these, though they exist. Most of the time, it's more in the form of clinical research in a teaching hospital environment. Either way, they tend to be carried out by faculty positions in veterinary schools.

How common is animal research for the sake of improving clinical treatments for animals (and not to help people.) Is it less than 1%? Is it all funded by vet schools and animal clubs?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Nope, didn't apply. I felt like that would be flushing my DVM down the toilet at this point in my career. There's a reason why I went to vet school instead of grad school for a PhD after all.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

How common is animal research for the sake of improving clinical treatments for animals (and not to help people.) Is it less than 1%? Is it all funded by vet schools and animal clubs?

It's common in vet schools, but terribly under-funded. You have a few exceptions like Morris Animal Foundation grants, but overall if you want federal $$ (usually NIH) there is usually a requirement that there to be a significant human and/of public health component if your research is animal-based. And federal funds are the primary funding sources for research at universities.

 

[Starry-chan]

It's common in vet schools, but terribly under-funded. You have a few exceptions like Morris Animal Foundation grants, but overall if you want federal $$ (usually NIH) there is usually a requirement that there to be a significant human and/of public health component if your research is animal-based. And federal funds are the primary funding sources for research at universities.

Thanks for the info graphic!

Would you happen to know what kind of impact the research funded by places like Morris Animal Foundation is having on clinical veterinary medicine?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Thanks for the info graphic!

Would you happen to know what kind of impact the research funded by places like Morris Animal Foundation is having on clinical veterinary medicine?

Like overall impact? I'm really not sure....one of my former resident-mates is on a Morris grant and I know she does good work. I mean, not work that would get serious federal funding most likely simply because of the subject matter, but good work. PIs who can swing USDA grants and stuff have it slightly easier. But those are just so few and far between, it is a really uphill battle. I was lucky enough to get an NIH grant so my research is entirely animal models of human disease, and that seems to be the majority of funding here.

The best place to get funded in veterinary research that is focused on animal health right now is most often pig research, especially viral diseases of pigs. And even with that, you have to sell the public health/agriculture side of it too.

 

[jestry]

I think also for lab animal, the exact program you decide to do your residency in and how that program meshes with your career goals is going to matter much more. You need some sort of first author pub to get boarded so all programs will have you doing some research regardless.

Some programs are much more clinically oriented vs. research oriented. There are some that are even 2 years rather than 3. Some are even funded by the NIH as a post-doc and you actually get a better salary for it. I looked into doing lab animal during my 4th year and externed at a couple of places, and I was really surprised at the differences in program format/experience. I decided against it when multiple graduating residents told me to run because jobs were scarce, and being geographically restricted I felt I had better chances as a dog/cat vet.

@jjohnston would be a great person to talk to. She is finishing up her lab animal residency now I think. I also know a couple of former sdn'ers and non affiliated people in lab animal residencies currently so I can get you in touch with them if you'd like.

Well that's encouraging, though I'm not super surprised. 🙁

Yeah if you want to PM me people I could to talk to that'd be awesome and I'd appreciate it! Thanks so much!

 

[PrincessButterCup]

My understanding is that applicants for DVM/PhD programs have to apply to each separately. Is it the same for residency/PhD? (For pathology, specifically) Can you be accepted to residency and rejected from graduate school, or do the programs accept you into both components from the same application?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

My understanding is that applicants for DVM/PhD programs have to apply to each separately. Is it the same for residency/PhD? (For pathology, specifically) Can you be accepted to residency and rejected from graduate school, or do the programs accept you into both components from the same application?

I had to apply to the graduate school as a formality...I think it was after I was accepted to the residency IIRC. Kind of a pain since they wanted all this stuff like GRE scores (really guys? really).

I mean, I suppose the grad school could reject you, but if you landed a residency I can't imagine why they would.

 

[lianali]

Out of curiousity, what veterinary programs were you looking at? Or recommend? My research experience is an anatomic pathology technician, which is how I found out about veterinary pathology, which is how I learned I want to become one. I'm not desperately interested in becoming a tenure-track professor, I'm much more interested into going back into the pre-clinical field doing toxicology/pathology for research institutions. I loved that stuff and went back to graduate school so I could be qualified for more responsibility. (Addendum, of the few companies I looked at, it always seemed like they had job postings for vet paths either anatomic or clinical or both. I don't know if the job postings are reflective of actual job demand, since I did notice a huge disconnect between sciences and HR.)

The impression I got when I left the work force in 2014 was that the job market for vet pathologists in industry was pretty solid. Am I off-base in that regard? I do have an opportunity to pursue primary authorship on a paper in my MPH program (Thanks bio professor!) and haven't decided if that's something I have the time to do, or is do-able before I graduate from the MPH program in May.

What you've described for a basic science PhD research track is essentially why I didn't apply to neuroscience PhD programs. I LOVED that work, still regret that I didn't finish refining my immunofluorescent staining techniques, but my PI was brutally honest about what the research field was like in 2010 when I graduated out of his lab as an undergraduate research assistant. He was super awesome, and I'd work for him in a heart beat if funding was an issue.

 

[Foxhunter]

I am interested in understanding the lifestyle of a DVM/PhD student. Any sights from current or prospective students are welcome. Please share your experiences!! (I applied this fall (2015)). What kind of jobs are available for DVM/Phd graduates?

I think my program has graduates 2 or 3 people at this point and there are about 12 of us in the trenches. One graduate works for Merck in a research position. One works for Banfield. A fourth year just accepted a position as a Clinical Pathology Resident. One of my friends who is done with her PhD but in 3rd year of vet school has decided to go into private practice and not pursue further specialization. The other girl who is her year plans to pursue some sort of teaching position.

My best friend who is my year of entry (will probably finish a year before me though) plans to do research somehow.

I literally have no idea what I want to do and change my mind every week.

I think one of us in the program will end up with a neurology specialty and work at a vet school. I think another of my close friends will be a brilliant GI physiologist in academia.

 

[Foxhunter]

Related question. How common is it for DVMs who have specialized to pursue a graduate degree later in their career, whether masters or PhD? I'm sure it varies between specialties, but I was curious as to what some of the overall trends might be.

I would say this is the best route to go. In hindsight.

 

[Foxhunter]

I am a current DVM/PhD student at OKstate. The way it works here is that you complete the first two years of DVM program, take 1-2 years off while getting PhD work going, finish last two DVM years, then complete PhD. I am doing the dual program because I have thoughts of going into pharma industry then possibly going into academia. My research is definitely basic science based though, not clinical like most duallies. So, I will likely be taking longer than the 3-4 years extra. I agree with what the others have stated. Do Not Recommend unless you like doing research. It is too stressful and the rewards questionable for the effort.

Yea... lol. I'm like class of 2021 hopefully. My PI totally hates clinician researchers in theory so is holding me to the same standards as any other graduate student. which I like. I know I'm getting a quality PhD. However, without saying too much I can say that combined degree candidates often get away with less than stellar research experiences. It is definitely up to the student and their committee.