EM and FIRE

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Question for crypto buyers:

What if the US government decides to ban crypto, or regulate it so heavily, no one wants it anymore?

Or, what if it comes out with its own cryptocurrency and the masses decide they trust a government back crypto, more than one non-government backed?

Couldn't those things literally crash the prices to zero, overnight?
Ethereum itself is at risk of a swift 75% correction if big whales decide to dump back to chain activity weighted value. No gov intervention needed. None of this is predictable and overbought can stay overbought for a long time, but obviously the faster a parabolic rise, the bigger the risk of a near term drop.

“The JPMorgan team said an analysis of activity on the affiliated Ethereum blockchain suggests a lower fair value of $1,000 for the token.”

 
Ethereum itself is at risk of a swift 75% correction if big whales decide to dump back to chain activity weighted value. No gov intervention needed. None of this is predictable and overbought can stay overbought for a long time, but obviously the faster a parabolic rise, the bigger the risk of a near term drop.

“The JPMorgan team said an analysis of activity on the affiliated Ethereum blockchain suggests a lower fair value of $1,000 for the token.”

So, in other words...it doesn't matter if it ends up worthless in the long run, as long as you buy on the upslope and manage not to get caught buying on the final downslope?
 
Question for crypto buyers. What if:

The US government bans crypto (which admittedly wouldn't eliminate it) but renders it worthless for 99% of the population?

The US government comes out with its own cryptocurrency (which also doesn't eliminate crypto) but drives 99% of the population towards a crypto they perceive as stable and safer?

Couldn't those things literally crash the prices to zero, overnight?
Ban: yes, that could tank the currency. The problem is that the US gov would need to deal with the consequences of then having a black market unregulated currency that is still used all over the rest of the world. Could the rest of the world follow suit? Sure. Instead however, the gov has decided to tax crypto holdings/gains like any other asset. This way they maintain their free market ethos, and allow Uncle Sam to skim off the top as usual. I don't see an immediate reason why this arrangement would change, but you're certainly right that it could.

US govt crypto is relatively antithetical to most of the goals that crypto was created to achieve in the first place. I think a USDCoin would certainly have followers, but I doubt it would have much impact on the value of other coins.

Again, not dismissing your argument. As I said above, I firmly believe that this could all crash to zero at any time. I personally don't think that it will, and regardless, I think that the tech behind eth in particular is going to allow for some really cool things on the internet as more uses become widespread. I personally think that NFTs are somewhat insane, however, there is apparently a growing and very lucrative market for the things. NFTs are built on Eth.

Will NFTs ultimately become digital beanie babies? Yeah, maybe. My point isn't so much that NFTs are cool. It's more that the ethereum blockchain and smart contract tech is allowing for some interesting innovation.
 
Again, not dismissing your argument. As I said above, I firmly believe that this could all crash to zero at any time. I personally don't think that it will, and regardless, I think that the tech behind eth in particular is going to allow for some really cool things on the internet as more uses become widespread. I personally think that NFTs are somewhat insane, however, there is apparently a growing and very lucrative market for the things. NFTs are built on Eth.

Will NFTs ultimately become digital beanie babies? Yeah, maybe. My point isn't so much that NFTs are cool. It's more that the ethereum blockchain and smart contract tech is allowing for some interesting innovation.
I'm not arguing for any viewpoint on this in particular. It's all new enough that I'm still trying to learn about it. What I do know for sure is that I personally, still have far too much to learn on the subject to put any significant amount of money at risk in the arena. But that's just me. I fully acknowledge it's an area some people will likely succeed, perhaps wildly. It just so happens that I'm not going to be one of those people.

I definitely believe in the technology at large.
 
Governments will find a way to regulate/tax it, making cryptocurrency less useful. It's only valuable if Governments can't track or control it, otherwise it's just like any other Fiat currency.
 
So, in other words...it doesn't matter if it ends up worthless in the long run, as long as you buy on the upslope and manage not to get caught buying on the final downslope?
Yes exactly
 
Looks like the US government (and China) made some statements that they would explore their own government-backed crypto currencies. And Bitcoin and the others are down 40%+ in a matter of days.
 
Looks like the US government (and China) made some statements that they would explore their own government-backed crypto currencies. And Bitcoin and the others are down 40%+ in a matter of days.
Volatility at it's best.
 
Bitcoin and crypto feels like going to Vegas. What I will never understand is how someone can steal your Bitcoin and there is no way to track who stole it.

So if you keep it online, someone can steal it, use it and noone can track it. If you keep it on paper, you could lose it and never get it back.

Just seems all weird to me.
 
Bitcoin and crypto feels like going to Vegas. What I will never understand is how someone can steal your Bitcoin and there is no way to track who stole it.

So if you keep it online, someone can steal it, use it and noone can track it. If you keep it on paper, you could lose it and never get it back.

Just seems all weird to me.

That happened to a friend of mine a few years ago. He rented out one of MGM's old data centers, which was about 100K per month including power to mine Bitcoin. Set up his rows and rows of computers and mined it for a few months. Then Chinese hackers broke into his system and somehow stole all the Bitcoin. He had no recourse, and just had to close up shop.
 
Bitcoin and crypto feels like going to Vegas. What I will never understand is how someone can steal your Bitcoin and there is no way to track who stole it.

So if you keep it online, someone can steal it, use it and noone can track it. If you keep it on paper, you could lose it and never get it back.

Just seems all weird to me.
A guy I know had a picture of him made into a meme. I was researching "how to monetize an NFT" (a "non fungible token"), and what I found all seems to go back to the "blockchain", which is the core of Bitcoin. All I want is my money as a percentage, but, boy howdy, what a PITA. Seriously.
 
Any currency that can fluctuate so wildly on a tweet just doesn't seem stable.
 
Bitcoin and crypto feels like going to Vegas. What I will never understand is how someone can steal your Bitcoin and there is no way to track who stole it.

So if you keep it online, someone can steal it, use it and noone can track it. If you keep it on paper, you could lose it and never get it back.

Just seems all weird to me.
So just chiming in b/c I thought it might be helpful as I think a small allocation to this space could be useful for people in their FIRE goals. As usual, do your own research, YMMV. The decentralized technology space that is developing is absolutely fascinating and there's a lot of details about it to learn. Like medicine, it requires you to develop an entirely new vocabulary due to the specifics of it. It's worth looking into. On to bitcoin...

In brief, bitcoin in its current form, trading "on-chain", is never going to be anything approaching what people commonly think of as a currency. It's why the "digital gold" analogy has been recurrently used. There are other means (Lightning network, a layer-2 technology) that do allow such things but time will tell what wins out there. For those interested in a slightly more traditional analysis of this asset from Jan 2020, look here:



What's interesting when you run various simulations as he alludes to in that post, is that even a 1% allocation would outperform with less risk to the overall portfolio, than a 0% allocation, likely due to not correlating fully with the overall equity markets. This is why you will continue to see more institutions put a very small portion of their funds in this space.

As for tracking...that's somewhat complicated and to avoid this post getting too long, I won't keep going unless someone specifically requests more info. Every transaction on the bitcoin blockchain is completely trackable, public, and 100% auditable. It's not anonymous, it's pseudoanonymous. What that means is every transaction and wallet address is public, but you may not be able to identify who owns a particular wallet address. The IRS (and presumably other govt agencies) employ companies in what's called the "chain-analysis industry" to track things. It's how funds get recovered, and how people get caught for avoiding taxes. Because bitcoin is a bearer instrument, like cash, transactions are not reversible. So it comes down to tracking who owns what wallet.

As for losing it online...think of it like leaving your cash in the trunk of your car, and you park your car in a public parking garage. Someone breaks into your trunk, they walk away with the cash and you have no recourse. That's kind of an analogy for keeping your assets on an exchange. There's more details to it than that, like everything in this space. Very few people keep their assets on paper anymore, that's kind of crazy at this point. People use what are called "hardware wallets." But you are correct that if you lose your private key (this is what lets you tell the bitcoin protocol that you are the person with the control over specific assets, like a password for your bank account) you will forever lose the funds. Just like cash. If someone stole your car from that parking lot, the cash is gone and you don't get it back.

Ok this post is already way too long, hopefully helpful in some fashion. I'd be happy to post links to other resources if anyone wants to start learning more for themselves, or refer to the bigger names in the space (basically everything is discussed/announced on Twitter) for others to do their own research and decide if this asset space is appropriate for their risk tolerance.
 
I mean, talk about volatility...good grief. I'll never invest in this stuff.

Image 5-22-21 at 11.11 AM.jpg
 
I keep looking for business ideas for cash flow but cant find anything locally to invest in. I want to keep my main job as a pit doc.
I wish I could buy into a functional freestanding ER. At the very least, it would give me some job security to work shifts there.
If any of you guys are doing anything, I'm seriously looking to invest.
 
I keep looking for business ideas for cash flow but cant find anything locally to invest in. I want to keep my main job as a pit doc.
I wish I could buy into a functional freestanding ER. At the very least, it would give me some job security to work shifts there.
If any of you guys are doing anything, I'm seriously looking to invest.

DITTO. Wished I had the opportunity to buy into an FSED in houston when the market was about to take off. Real estate syndications may still be a good way to go, if you still want to buy into something, lots of those opportunities out there than can get you an 18-20% return per year.
 
There is a ton of doom and gloom (and rightfully so) on the EM board.

I wanted to start a thread on financial independence, escape strategies, fellowships- what are our plans?

I'll start. I have a decent gig that I hope will be doable for the next two years. My goal will be to retire with 3-3.2 mm in the bank and a paid off house (done, although I hate my house). If gig continues, so will I, but I think I can walk away at that point fairly safely.

Looking to the future, I'd like to get involved in real estate investing, and would love to hear from others who are pursuing this.
That’s awesome that you’re looking ahead and establishing goals.

Real estate investment looks like a sunny future right now since no one is making more land and the market is currently favoring owner/seller. However, it’s not as passive an income as folks like Grant Cardone make it appear to be. Being a landlord is a lot of work: properties must be inspected and kept up, tenants vetted, people problems dealt with, insurance, etc.

Where the real money is for passive income, is in medical device manufacturing. If you can drive a small manufacturing company with investments and conceptual guidance, you could stand to make a lot of money with a lot less oversight and hassle. I think the biggest hurdle is finding a good accountant to advise you on how to organize the business side for your best profit-sharing benefit.
 
DITTO. Wished I had the opportunity to buy into an FSED in houston when the market was about to take off. Real estate syndications may still be a good way to go, if you still want to buy into something, lots of those opportunities out there than can get you an 18-20% return per year.
If something could actually get you an 18 percent return consistently you would end up a billionaire
 
well the syndication deals rarely go past 5-10 years, and yes there is risk involved.
 
Also interested in syndications. Pretty much everyone on Facebook physician groups has reported positive experiences. I'm interested in equity deals where you own a part of the building at the end of the investment term, then get a share of the profit when the building appreciates. Just need to pull the trigger on one of these deals...
 
Also interested in syndications. Pretty much everyone on Facebook physician groups has reported positive experiences. I'm interested in equity deals where you own a part of the building at the end of the investment term, then get a share of the profit when the building appreciates. Just need to pull the trigger on one of these deals...

I just put 25k into a syndication through crowdstreet in an apartment complex in Miami.

Very close to putting another 25k into a development project near DC.
 
I just put 25k into a syndication through crowdstreet in an apartment complex in Miami.

Very close to putting another 25k into a development project near DC.

Your posts have been inspiring.

I'm fighting a mental battle between paying off my loans ASAP (currently have 36 months left @ 1.75% fixed) vs just dumping as much money as I can into my brokerage account, vs. RE syndication, vs actually buying a property myself and hiring a management company..on top of trying to learn how to trade options and day trade...
 
Your posts have been inspiring.

I'm fighting a mental battle between paying off my loans ASAP (currently have 36 months left @ 1.75% fixed) vs just dumping as much money as I can into my brokerage account, vs. RE syndication, vs actually buying a property myself and hiring a management company..on top of trying to learn how to trade options and day trade...
Would you mind sharing that bank...?
 
It's Laurel Road, it was 2% but I got an additional 0.25% discount through my job.

Rates have since risen...and I don't think I can get a better fixed or variable rate than what I'm currently at right now.
Probably the one good thing that came out of the pandemic was rock bottom interest rates
 
It's Laurel Road, it was 2% but I got an additional 0.25% discount through my job.

Rates have since risen...and I don't think I can get a better fixed or variable rate than what I'm currently at right now.

Probably the one good thing that came out of the pandemic was rock bottom interest rates

Agreed! Just did a re-finance at 2.5% 30 year 7/1. At 2.5% it's great to pay down debt, or invest in the markets and get a decent return.
 
Has anyone had good luck with real estate syndications? Not sure if I'm ready to actually buy an entire rental property as my first move.
 
It's Laurel Road, it was 2% but I got an additional 0.25% discount through my job.

Rates have since risen...and I don't think I can get a better fixed or variable rate than what I'm currently at right now.

Lucky they offered me 7% and I was like uhh... this is much higher than what I currently pay and without federal protections tho?

You basically have free money I would just pay the minimum if I were you and put the rest in investments.
 
Your posts have been inspiring.

I'm fighting a mental battle between paying off my loans ASAP (currently have 36 months left @ 1.75% fixed) vs just dumping as much money as I can into my brokerage account, vs. RE syndication, vs actually buying a property myself and hiring a management company..on top of trying to learn how to trade options and day trade...

Are you an accredited investor? The good syndicate deals are mostly only for accredited investors.

As the guy that paid off my debt in 6-7 months post residency and made it to the WCI podcast, honestly, don't do what i did. 1.75% is nothing. Now that I'm getting better and better at investing, i feel like i missed out on opportunity. Debt is a tool. Never again will you be able to get debt at 1.75%. Imagine paying off your student loans, and then taking a mortgage at 2.5 - 3 percent a year or so later. I mean.... That makes no sense.

Do you know how easy it is to get more than 1.75% interest?

Russell 2000 is at $2215 (RUT). Selling a naked put for 40 days from now with strike price $1650 right now has premium of $260. That's $260 on $16500 of cash, that's 1.5% return in 40 days (likely less) betting that a black swan event of Russell 2000 small cap dropping 25 percent in 40 days will not happen. If it does, hey you just rollover the trade and drop the strike price until you're right. This trade literally has a 99.96 percent probability of success based on today's implied volatility. This is how easy it is to make up your interest if you know what you're doing. Granted.... Don't do options without knowing what you're doing lol.

Also, if you look at the deal on crowdstreet that i put money in, parc place apartments. It's still open to funding. The sponsor has greater than 1 billion in real estate assets that they currently manage, they operate in 17 states, have ridiculous experience and the project is essentially part of their core competencies. Plus it's a value add deal, the property will give off 7% cash flow immediately, and as property improvements are made, rents will rise and eventually property price. Value add is obviously less risky. This is my first syndicate deal, but i feel pretty comfortable dropping 25k in that. Even if i don't realize the 18% IRR. It will be hard to get a loss on a cash flowing income producing asset that's being bought in an off market deal at a slight discount. Like i said, look at it yourself, it's the parc place apartments in Miami - literally across one of their stadiums and top golf.

The other deal I'm looking at is The Rae apartments in bethesda MD. It is a development, so more risk, no immediate cash flow, but bigger upside and reward. But sponsor has 5 billion of assets under management. It's folger pratt, huge real estate firm and vertically integrated. All their last multi family development project were finished successfully with large returns, so they have the right experience. The complex will be next to highways for commuters which is important for the DC metro area. And it's right next to Westgate mall, which is developing more and getting expanded. It's a great location and the numbers make great sense, i just haven't gotten around to pulling the trigger here because new development makes me kinda nervous, even if bigger reward.

If i had to do it again, i would invest everyday instead of paying off debt at that interest. If someone offered me a million dollars in loan money at that interest i will take it and still invest.
 
Has anyone had good luck with real estate syndications? Not sure if I'm ready to actually buy an entire rental property as my first move.

Also.... The more ive thought about it, the more ive leaned towards syndications.

I ran numbers on some properties in Indianapolis, my next home. I used the bigger pockets tools to evaluate deals. With perfect execution on good cash flowing properties i was looking at IRR of 15-20 percent. But that's perfect execution. I won't have that. I will run across issues. Someone with 1 billion plus in assets will have a leaner and more streamlined management system than mine, they will have a better deal funnel, better tools and capabilities than me in every single way.

Im not arrogant to think that i could do better than a multi million dollar company that does this for a living while doing this as a part time side gig.

The conclusion i came to is that I'm far more likely to lose money myself managing one building than having a small share of a large pie. If a tenant destroys my house, im screwed. If a tenant destroys 1 unit out of 236 units in an apartment complex, it's not a big deal.

Plus my time is more valuable than finding deals cash flowing $100-500/mo when i can get that passively.

Think smart. One of the biggest lessons I've learned "not how but who". Hugely successful people don't do everything themselves, they delegate and lead, they find people who do the job for them, and are better at doing that task. Your job is to do what you are best at and no body else can do. Otherwise to build, grow, and expand, find others to do things that you don't need to do or are not good at. A syndicate sponsor is my "who". I'm a great ER doctor and make $$$ with my time. I'm not going to waste my time on something someone else will do better than me. The dollar per hour return is not there with buying a property myself and managing it.
 
Also.... The more ive thought about it, the more ive leaned towards syndications.

I ran numbers on some properties in Indianapolis, my next home. I used the bigger pockets tools to evaluate deals. With perfect execution on good cash flowing properties i was looking at IRR of 15-20 percent. But that's perfect execution. I won't have that. I will run across issues. Someone with 1 billion plus in assets will have a leaner and more streamlined management system than mine, they will have a better deal funnel, better tools and capabilities than me in every single way.

Im not arrogant to think that i could do better than a multi million dollar company that does this for a living while doing this as a part time side gig.

The conclusion i came to is that I'm far more likely to lose money myself managing one building than having a small share of a large pie. If a tenant destroys my house, im screwed. If a tenant destroys 1 unit out of 236 units in an apartment complex, it's not a big deal.

Plus my time is more valuable than finding deals cash flowing $100-500/mo when i can get that passively.

Think smart. One of the biggest lessons I've learned "not how but who". Hugely successful people don't do everything themselves, they delegate and lead, they find people who do the job for them, and are better at doing that task. Your job is to do what you are best at and no body else can do. Otherwise to build, grow, and expand, find others to do things that you don't need to do or are not good at. A syndicate sponsor is my "who". I'm a great ER doctor and make $$$ with my time. I'm not going to waste my time on something someone else will do better than me. The dollar per hour return is not there with buying a property myself and managing it.
So you’re saying that you can simply give someone money and they will give you 18 percent rate of return on your money? How are they making any money if they’re paying you 18 percent?
 
So you’re saying that you can simply give someone money and they will give you 18 percent rate of return on your money? How are they making any money if they’re paying you 18 percent?

That is the definition of syndication. Like literally.

They are not "giving" me money. I'm their limited partner. I'm a PARTNER in the profits of the company. Or a partner in the loss.

The Miami apartment is a $42 million complex. 30 percent of the money is being raised with multiple investors who will own the building. 70 percent financing. I will be an owner and receive a k1 form as a partner.

The sponsor, the one who runs the logistics, is the general partner. Out of the 13 million raised, or whatever the exact number was, they are putting in 10%. They will be 10 percent share holders. The remaining investors, the limited partners own 90 percent. If the deal goes bad, they lose money just like i do. Our interests are aligned since if my 0.05% shares go to 0, their 10 percent stake also goes to null.

As general partners, they have a slightly higher return than what I'll get. They also have transaction fees, a small acquisition fee at times, and property management fees, usually around 3-5 percent. And then the profits from sale and distributions are structured that the better the sponsor does, the better their return, again incentivizing the sponsor to do better. In my particular deal i believe the first 10% or something all goes back to the investors. Any profit after the first 10% goes 70 percent to investors and 30% to sponsor. So if i make 18 percent IRR, sponsor made 21 ish percent plus management fees that are separate. This is their projected return based on their business plan and market assumptions. The exact number and outcome will vary, time will tell. Sometimes sponsors over deliver, some crap sponsors can go bust. Crowdstreet which is just a market place and brings investors and sponsors together did an analysis of all their realized deals. The average return was 17 percent and ranged from 100% loss to assume 45 percent IRR. Really depends on the execution of the sponsor who you have to vet and their business plan. I've set a rule, i will not invest in any sponsor with less than 1 billion in assets under management.

Again....a syndication is not a fund where they give me money or promise money. I own the building, or more technically speaking, i own shares of the llc that owns the building. I sit around, get paid, and take benefit of someone's experience and execution. I've reviewed their BUSINESS PLAN, and felt the business plan was worthy of an investment and my becoming a partner.

Literally that's the definition of syndication. Your question could literally be phrased another way to say "what is a syndication". A lot of times, multi million dollar buildings are not owned by one person - they are owned by a bunch of investors who come together called a syndicate deal. The empire State building in nyc was once bought as a syndicate deal.
 
That is the definition of syndication. Like literally.

They are not "giving" me money. I'm their limited partner. I'm a PARTNER in the profits of the company. Or a partner in the loss.

The Miami apartment is a $42 million complex. 30 percent of the money is being raised with multiple investors who will own the building. 70 percent financing. I will be an owner and receive a k1 form as a partner.

The sponsor, the one who runs the logistics, is the general partner. Out of the 13 million raised, or whatever the exact number was, they are putting in 10%. They will be 10 percent share holders. The remaining investors, the limited partners own 90 percent. If the deal goes bad, they lose money just like i do. Our interests are aligned since if my 0.05% shares go to 0, their 10 percent stake also goes to null.

As general partners, they have a slightly higher return than what I'll get. They also have transaction fees, a small acquisition fee at times, and property management fees, usually around 3-5 percent. And then the profits from sale and distributions are structured that the better the sponsor does, the better their return, again incentivizing the sponsor to do better. In my particular deal i believe the first 10% or something all goes back to the investors. Any profit after the first 10% goes 70 percent to investors and 30% to sponsor. So if i make 18 percent IRR, sponsor made 21 ish percent plus management fees that are separate.

Again....a syndication is not a fund where they give me money or promise money. I own the building, or more technically speaking, i own shares of the llc that owns the building. I sit around, get paid, and take benefit of someone's experience and execution. I've reviewed their BUSINESS PLAN, and felt the business plan was worthy of an investment and my becoming a partner.

Literally that's the definition of syndication. Your question could literally be phrased another way to say "what is a syndication". A lot of times, multi million dollar buildings are not owned by one person - they are owned by a bunch of investors who come together called a syndicate deal. The empire State building in nyc was once bought as a syndicate deal.
Seems risky compared to just investing in a mutual fund and make 8 percent over 30 years
 
Seems risky compared to just investing in a mutual fund and make 8 percent over 30 years
It is. Which is why one should allocate a portion of their overall portfolio to something like this. Maybe the “alternative investment” portion, like say 10% of your net worth, with the rest invested in a balanced portfolio of mutual funds and bonds.
 
Seems risky compared to just investing in a mutual fund and make 8 percent over 30 years

Sure. You do you. Similar risk to owning a rental property, with the added sponsor risk as they control things and make decisions. The interests are aligned so they are trying to make themselves money, in the process should make you money

The risk adjusted returns are fairly decent. Stocks have risks. Bonds have risk. Everything has risk and risk adjusted returns.

Physical real estate has the added benefit of TRUE diversification in an asset class that does not correlate with the stock market. Reits correlate a lot with the stock market, even though they are essentially physical real estate properties too. Physical real estate does not have the same correlation (except 2008 where the market crash was infact because of real estate).

Modern portfolio theory also advocates a 20-30 percent stake in physical real estate as that gives the best risk adjusted return aka best return at the lowest volatility. All the big college endowments for a reason happen to be 20-40 percent real estate.

So the correct way to invest, to get the lowest volatility for the best bang for the buck actually involves owning physical real estate, so in a way you haven't read enough financial literature to really know that adding this asset class decreases volatility at better risk adjusted returns.

Moreover, multi family real estate has proved remarkably recession proof in the past. It is an asset class that fares well when everything else goes to hell. It's simple, a multi unit apartment complex value is not from the building or the land, that's a small part. Almost all the valuation is from the cash flow. Most multi unit apartment buildings sell at a cap rate around 4.5-5 percent. If rents are maintained, cash flow is maintained, and apartment value is based off the cash flow rather than the actual real estate
 
Sure. You do you. Similar risk to owning a rental property, with the added sponsor risk as they control things and make decisions. The interests are aligned so they are trying to make themselves money, in the process should make you money

The risk adjusted returns are fairly decent. Stocks have risks. Bonds have risk. Everything has risk and risk adjusted returns.

Physical real estate has the added benefit of TRUE diversification in an asset class that does not correlate with the stock market. Reits correlate a lot with the stock market, even though they are essentially physical real estate properties too. Physical real estate does not have the same correlation (except 2008 where the market crash was infact because of real estate).

Modern portfolio theory also advocates a 20-30 percent stake in physical real estate as that gives the best risk adjusted return aka best return at the lowest volatility. All the big college endowments for a reason happen to be 20-40 percent real estate.

So the correct way to invest, to get the lowest volatility for the best bang for the buck actually involves owning physical real estate, so in a way you haven't read enough financial literature to really know that adding this asset class decreases volatility at better risk adjusted returns.

Moreover, multi family real estate has proved remarkably recession proof in the past. It is an asset class that fares well when everything else goes to hell. It's simple, a multi unit apartment complex value is not from the building or the land, that's a small part. Almost all the valuation is from the cash flow. Most multi unit apartment buildings sell at a cap rate around 4.5-5 percent. If rents are maintained, cash flow is maintained, and apartment value is based off the cash flow rather than the actual real estate
If you’re buying an apartment building at a 5 cap what’s your interest on the loan? How would you ever make money on that? There’s no cash flow there
 
If you’re buying an apartment building at a 5 cap what’s your interest on the loan? How would you ever make money on that? There’s no cash flow there

You can get smaller cheaper units at much higher cap rates.

Institutional level properties with a large number of units, like a 200 unit complex has low cap rates since they are safer.

Also evaluate a few deals and look at numbers yourself and gather knowledge because your question makes no sense. Obviously you are more risk averse than i am. Your question doesn't make sense because Using leverage increases return. That's the beauty of real estate.

For example:

A 1 million dollar building with 5% cap rate makes 50,000.

You can buy the building with all cash and get the 5% return. That's 50k on 1 million dollars.

Or

You can buy 30 percent down and increase your cash on cash return. This gives you a conservative loan to cash value of 70 percent.

So 300k cash, 700k finance at 2.5 percent (institutional investors will get the best financing terms). Then you get 50,000, pay $17500 in interest, plus principal, but essentially the remaining goes towards cash flow and principal, which is basically all return, so to simplify Math $32500 net after paying interest.

So $32500 return on 300k cash or 10.8% annual return on cash with distributions through rent. This is how these apartment buildings give decent cash flow and then large returns with forced price appreciation by increasing rents. Let's say rents over time are increased by 10 percent due to operational efficiency and improvements, meaning 55k in rents from 50k. Then the apartment is now worth the new 5% cap of 1.1M. Now if sold, the 700k can be paid to the bank, and then the investor gets the remaining 400k (technically plus whatever principal has been paid but that's already part of the 32k return to simplify Math if that makes sense), that's a 100k capital gains profit on original investment of 300k. So that's another 33% return. The IRR will be the annualized total return, usually around 12-15 percent for core plus properties, 15-20 percent for value add properties and 20+% for development properties.

This is how real estate is giving 15-20 percent returns. This is the norm. It isn't unusual or any shocking secret I'm telling you.

So your question makes absolutely no sense. Leverage increases return, it doesn't decrease it.
 
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Seems risky compared to just investing in a mutual fund and make 8 percent over 30 years

And could you please tell me how you know the market will give 8% in THE FUTURE? Will it really? Maybe you should use interactive brokers and take out margin at 1.5 % interest and double your return then if you know you're getting 8 percent.

PAST PERFORMANCE DOES NOT GUARANTEE FUTURE RETURNS. It's written on every prospectus of everything you invest in for a reason.

If it did, there would be no point of diversification and you could just pick the asset class that does the best over time - 100% small cap value 😉 obviously no one does that. Because past performance is just that, the past.

30 years later, Japan markets are 20 ish percent below their market highs from decades ago.

How do you know your markets will go up? My Crystal ball is cloudy so i diversify and increase my risk adjusted return while decreasing volatility.
 
And could you please tell me how you know the market will give 8% in THE FUTURE? Will it really? Maybe you should use interactive brokers and take out margin at 1.5 % interest and double your return then if you know you're getting 8 percent.

PAST PERFORMANCE DOES NOT GUARANTEE FUTURE RETURNS. It's written on every prospectus of everything you invest in for a reason.

If it did, there would be no point of diversification and you could just pick the asset class that does the best over time - 100% small cap value 😉 obviously no one does that. Because past performance is just that, the past.

30 years later, Japan markets are 20 ish percent below their market highs from decades ago.

How do you know your markets will go up? My Crystal ball is cloudy so i diversify and increase my risk adjusted return while decreasing volatility.
If you can get a commercial loan for 2.5 percent interest that’s a different story, commercial loans are usually higher than residential loans and are about 4-5 percent
 
If you can get a commercial loan for 2.5 percent interest that’s a different story, commercial loans are usually higher than residential loans and are about 4-5 percent

Rough back of the napkin math for the concept.

Again, look at an actual deal for the exact numbers on cash flow, rental income, expenses, comp sales, comp rentals. It's not hard. Go to crowd street.com or real crowd.com or arbor crowd.com or equity multiple.com, sign up for free, pick a cash flowing deal, look at math, look at sponsor history from previous deals, evaluate their assumptions, hear their webinar, read everything in the documents. Then discuss.
 
Debt is good right now. Especially mortgage debt. You can take out a mortgage, and with the interest deduction of up to $750K of the home value, the true interest rate will often be less than 2%, which is below the level of inflation. It's a great deal considering rates are unlikely to stay low due to the government printing $trillions out of thin air.

I wish home prices were reasonable at the moment so I could buy some extra properties, but they are too inflated nationwide, and even worse locally. Despite what the experts say I think there's a reasonable chance of a housing bubble popping in the next 1-3 years.
 
Debt is good right now. Especially mortgage debt. You can take out a mortgage, and with the interest deduction of up to $750K of the home value, the true interest rate will often be less than 2%, which is below the level of inflation. It's a great deal considering rates are unlikely to stay low due to the government printing $trillions out of thin air.

I wish home prices were reasonable at the moment so I could buy some extra properties, but they are too inflated nationwide, and even worse locally. Despite what the experts say I think there's a reasonable chance of a housing bubble popping in the next 1-3 years.
Do you believe the lumber shortage is going to resolve? Can't imagine more trees popping out of nowhere in the next 1-3 years..
 
Do you believe the lumber shortage is going to resolve? Can't imagine more trees popping out of nowhere in the next 1-3 years..

Lumber price regardless has a upper cap as it nears construction cost with brick and concrete. Concrete structure is currently roughly 30 percent more expensive. Demand will drop if price of construction equals brick/concrete.
 
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