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I agree. My statement was just to point out how this automatic optimism can be unfounded. Bumblebee chooses to believe that this is Christmas come early and that everyone who says otherwise is just mad at the outcome. That kind of thinking is usually linked to shootouts in Texas and tainted koolaid

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No, I'm not saying this. What I'm saying is that this unification is good for everyone along with the patients. It's you who has been opposing this idea without any supporting evidences. What you've been telling here is only that DOs are screwed, which isn't true at all.

I understand your ego, being at a "top MD school" (this is from your own wording), has been scratched a little after this merger, though. Hence, your hard feelings.
 
Obviously both sides will have oodles of lawyers all over whatever the 2015 agreement is, but if you guys think there isnt the possibility that the rest of the ACGME can put things to vote that would be against the interests of the AOA you are being very optimistic. Obviously a vote is never a sure thing, but the rest of the ACGME has a pretty solid avenue by which to pressure the AOA into doing things it wants, and this didnt exist before the "merger"

+1.

The main reason separate osteopathic GME even existed up to this point was for DOs to be able to get training without detrimental outside influence, which was a very real problem historically (not as much in the present, though).

With this merger, the GME game is no longer purely on the AOA's terms.

I'll make another prediction: the COMLEX-USA will be the next thing to fall. Ultimately if students from the M.D. and D.O. schools are competing for the same residencies, there will be a move for them to take the same qualifying examination beforehand. My belief is that a universal examination will be the only objective way to judge the relative merits of individual applicants in this new system. I would guess that the USMLE will be that test, with DO schools administering an OMT examination separately as an additional requirement for graduation.
 
+1.

The main reason separate osteopathic GME even existed up to this point was for DOs to be able to get training without detrimental outside influence, which was a very real problem historically (not as much in the present, though).

With this merger, the GME game is no longer purely on the AOA's terms.

I'll make another prediction: the COMLEX-USA will be the next thing to fall. Ultimately if students from the M.D. and D.O. schools are competing for the same residencies, there will be a move for them to take the same qualifying examination beforehand. My belief is that a universal examination will be the only objective way to judge the relative merits of individual applicants in this new system. I would guess that the USMLE will be that test, with DO schools administering an OMT examination separately as an additional requirement for graduation.

I could see this happening. However, I think it will be years into the merger before talks of that will even begin to take place.
 
Well, I don't know. But, it's you who has been whining about the merger than anyone else, even the DOs :laugh:. You gotta have some fire at you at somewhere. Otherwise, you should have been happier than before.

Likewise, I'm happier than ever since I'll be sharing the same ACGME spots (competitive or not, whatnot) with you without having to bother to choose AOA or ACGME. Life's is good for us, baby!.. 😍

Dude I am a 4th year DO student and I think this is the beginning of the end for the AOA and the DO degree. People who are excited about this can't see beyond their own selfish desire to have a combined match. There are huge implications MS-0s (wtf, really?) are not even considering. The AOA just handed over alot of their control to the ACGME. You are blind if you don't think that has consequences.
 
Dude I am a 4th year DO student and I think this is the beginning of the end for the AOA and the DO degree. People who are excited about this can't see beyond their own selfish desire to have a combined match. There are huge implications MS-0s (wtf, really?) are not even considering. The AOA just handed over alot of their control to the ACGME. You are blind if you don't think that has consequences.

I'd like to know your opinion. Please explain your side if you dont mind.
 
Dude I am a 4th year DO student and I think this is the beginning of the end for the AOA and the DO degree. People who are excited about this can't see beyond their own selfish desire to have a combined match. There are huge implications MS-0s (wtf, really?) are not even considering. The AOA just handed over alot of their control to the ACGME. You are blind if you don't think that has consequences.

I'd feel more than happy to listen to your elaboration on this.
 
Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.
 
Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.

So when do you think we will all be MD's? Do you think all open DO schools will convert to MD?

Just as an aside, the stuff you mention is mere speculation, and are Things that even some of us lowly accepted MS-0's can see happening. This is something that will affect us all, not just MS-IV's....
 
Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.

1) There will still be AOA residencies (under the ACGME umbrella). This has already been said. (otherwise you wouldn't have the option of being AOA vs ACGME certified which they have said will not be changing). It was actually explicitly stated that this had NOTHING to do with board certification and that the AOA residencies aren't going anywhere.

2) We all want to get rid of the COMLEX anyway. Although I don't see it happening anytime soon.

3) Why would this "question" ever be acted on? Why would the ACGME (who has DO's on board now) spend the time and money to convert DO schools to MD? The ACGME doesn't accredit schools. You think that they are just going to say... "We only accept MD students now, you have to change you degree". Give me a break. The California merger was 60 years ago, things have changed. The ACGME literally has nothing to gain by mandating the MD degree.


Honest question for you. Do you think we would have been better off if the ACGME common program requirements had went through?


Sources from the FAQ you reference:
As we move toward a unified accreditation system, will we move toward a unified board system in the future?

As things stand, the unified accreditation system is strictly limited to graduate medical education and does not include board certification or medical school accreditation. However, the AOA believes it is important to the public for osteopathic physicians to demonstrate their competency in osteopathic principles as part of the osteopathic board certification process.

How will the COMLEX exam play into the application process for GME? Will the osteopathic focused programs still require the COMLEX score?

COMLEX-USA will continue to be the required examination series and the pathway to licensure for osteopathic physicians. It is widely recognized and universally accepted as the valid examination for osteopathic physician competency assessment for licensure. It is also required by accreditation standards established by the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), and is a requirement for graduation from all colleges of osteopathic medicine. COMLEX-USA is regarded by the majority of residency program directors of AOA and ACGME accredited residency programs as an important and useful assessment tool as part of the evaluation of DO residency applicants for their programs.

^Read that line about the COMLEX and tell me it's going away.




Also, just to note, I'm sure it seems like I'm just trying to argue with you. But that isn't the case. I just want to make sure both sides are heard, and between all of the knowledgeable the posters in here, at least pre-meds can see all sides and decide for there own.
 
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Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.
Thanks for the nice elaboration, sylvanthus.
 
Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.

Why is any of this bad? How does no COMLEX affect future students (many who already take USMLE)? How does having MD after their names instead of DO affect future students? It's not like the ACGME is going to say "HA! We're shutting down all DO schools!" What is the "DO profession?" I thought we were all physicians working for our patients?

Defending two letters for the sake of tradition is kinda lame, isn't it?
 
Why is any of this bad? How does no COMLEX affect future students (many who already take USMLE)? How does having MD after their names instead of DO affect future students? It's not like the ACGME is going to say "HA! We're shutting down all DO schools!" What is the "DO profession?" I thought we were all physicians working for our patients?

Defending two letters for the sake of tradition is kinda lame, isn't it?

The evidence isnt all that great, but the evidence that exists suggests that mean scores in AOA competitive programs are not even close to that of ACGME programs. The only thing keeping the relationship from being directly measured is the existence of two tests.
 
The AOAs TOTAL voice in the matters of its GME in terms of access, accreditation, and even keeping programs open is 8 of ~30-35 votes (all others being MD or ACGME administration). The final 2015 resolution will likely have a contract ensuring access to fellowships and residency programs for all DOs, but honestly nothing will ever be set in stone (i.e. permanent) and at any point in time everything that the AOA is is only 1 vote away from going away completely. People are being very (overly) optimistic in what they see down the road, but for every overwhelmingly positive possibility there are those that are not so much happy endings. The AOA is in a very tenuous position at the moment so it will likely reach the resolution by 2015, a few programs may be closed, it will probably make several concessions to make sure an agreement is reached, and then it will sit quiet for at least a decade and wait for this to all become distant memory before even TRYING to expand in any fashion. The MD.DO thing steps on the toes of MDs for obvious reasons. That would just be a very poor idea.

Several things come to mind since the ACGME now controls every residency in the country. Yes, the AOA has a "seat at the table", but overall has little control if push comes to shove.

1) All residencies are ACGME certified, why have some with OMT and some without? Lets just eliminate OMT and keep things "consistent" or make it optional (IE. pretty much no resident will bother with OMT).

2) COMLEX will be gone as there is no point having two separate board exams for entrance into ACGME programs. Having one exam makes it easier to compare applicants. Overall, a good thing, but further elimination of OMT in general and what separates DOs from MDs.

3) Since the ACGME controls residency programs, sooner or later the question will come up: why have separate medical school degrees when all residencies are essentially the same and few if any have OMT any longer? Make it a requirement to be an MD program to gain access to residency programs or change all DO programs to MD programs? Look what happened in California, this is entirely possible. Bye bye DO school.

In summary, I do not see the DO profession surviving. I see DO school being converted to MD school as just happened to residency programs.

This separate but equal thing has just bit the DO profession in the ass. The AOA was completely ******ed when they just piggybacked on already created ACGME residencies, they should have worked from the beginning to create enough programs for the number of students. It was only a matter of time before they lost control when they were lazy enough to rely on another institutions work.

This isn't a "unification" this is a take over.

I have been trying to stress that DO's will be given a seat at the table and have been mostly met with the belief that their impact will be negligible. Looks like you guys may be off by a little.

AOA said:
"The AOA and AACOM have also successfully advocated for DO representation on the ACGME's governing bodies. We will each have one of seven seats on the ACGME Board, giving us veto power (the ACGME requires an 80% voting majority) over issues as the system evolves. DOs will be nominated to serve on each Residency Review Committee (RRC), and new RRCs will likely be formed for specialties unique to DOs, such as neuromuskuloskeletal medicine."

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=120691

Although I'm sure that this is somehow a "bad" thing for DO's and somehow they're still giving up power.
 
I have been trying to stress that DO's will be given a seat at the table and have been mostly met with the belief that their impact will be negligible. Looks like you guys may be off by a little.



http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=120691

Although I'm sure that this is somehow a "bad" thing for DO's and somehow they're still giving up power.

I've come to the conclusion that most people, especially med students, have no idea how this is going to realistically play out. My dean was really excited about the part you highlighted and other aspects so until I hear something different from people in the know then I will be excited as well.
 
Two questions:

Does this mean that Caribbean/international students can now apply to the former AOA residencies?

and

What's going to happen to the status of former AOA programs like radiology and derm (they require a transitional year before applying to those programs)? Are they going to be converted to categorical programs like their ACGME counterparts?
 
I have been trying to stress that DO's will be given a seat at the table and have been mostly met with the belief that their impact will be negligible. Looks like you guys may be off by a little.



http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=120691

Although I'm sure that this is somehow a "bad" thing for DO's and somehow they're still giving up power.

Here is the thing - the AOA sources you are quoting are being overly simplistic. If you look at the actual ACGME bylaws, an 80% vote is not the norm.
https://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/ab_ACGMEbylaws.pdf
Section 12. Matters Requiring Seven-eights Vote of the Directors: The following
matters shall require a seven-eights vote of the directors present and
voting at any regular meeting of the Board of Directors at which a quorum
is present:
a) A change in the term or terms of any director; and
7
b) Any amendment to this provision of the bylaws.

Section 13. Matters Requiring Votes of Directors and Members:
Notwithstanding any other provisions of these bylaws,
a) The following matters shall require first, a seven-eights vote of the
directors present and voting at any regular meeting of the Board of
Directors at which a quorum is present, and thereafter, if the
Board of Directors passes the matter, a four-fifths vote of the
members:
i) Dissolution;
ii) Sale or transfer of all assets;
iii) Merger;
iv) Addition of a member;
v) Removal of a member;
vi) Amendment of Article IV, Section 2, Article V, Sections 2,
3, or 13 of the bylaws; and
b) The following matters shall require first, a three-quarters vote of
the directors present and voting at any meeting of the Board of
Directors at which a quorum is present, and thereafter, if the
Board of Directors passes the matter, a four-fifths vote of the
members:
i) Amendment of Article II, Section 1 of the bylaws;
ii) Any single capital expense that exceeds 20% of the
reserve fund, as defined in the annual auditors' report;
iii) Aggregate capital expenses that would exceed 30% of the
reserve fund in a given fiscal year; and
iv) Any actions that would cause the debt to equity ratio to
exceed 1.0.

on number of votes
Section 2. Number and Residency Directors: The number of directors shall be a
minimum of twenty seven and a maximum of thirty. Without the
amendment of the bylaws, the Board of Directors may change the
number of directors, within the minimum and maximum, for terms
beginning upon adjournment of the annual meeting of the Board of
Directors. Directors need not be residents of the State of Illinois.
This number will be increased by 7 to accommodate the AOA. They have a 20% max vote if the minimum number of directors within this scheme is chosen. If, however, 30 prior ACGME seats are used there is no longer an AOA majority vote. There are also additional board members outside of this scheme which may throw a wrench in whoever published the veto vote thing in the first place:
Additional Directors: One to four at large directors, three public
directors, one ACGME Council of Review Committees director, and two
resident physician directors shall serve on the Board of Directors. The at
large directors and the public directors shall be appointed by the Board of
Directors. The Chair of the ACGME Council of Review Committees shall
be the Chair of the ACGME Council of Review Committees director. One
resident physician director shall be the Chair of the Council of Review
Committee Residents. One resident physician director shall be appointed
by the Resident and Fellow Section of the American Medical Association.
In selecting the resident physician for appointment to the Board of
Directors, the Resident and Fellow Section shall seek the advice of
national organizations representing resident physicians who are currently
participating in graduate medical education.

Again, because it is all speculation and nothing has been signed on either side (with the exception of an agreement to work towards an agreement), I will wait for the actual resolution before feeling comfortable agreeing with the very sunny interpretations that some people are giving.

In terms of non-monetary policy and things that do not affect the bylaws a simple majority suffices:
Manner of Acting: The act of a majority of the directors present and
voting at a meeting at which a quorum is present shall be the act of the
Board of Directors,
unless the act of a greater number is required by the
statute, these bylaws, or the Articles of Incorporation. If a quorum is not
present at any meeting of the Board of Directors, a majority of the
directors present may adjourn the meeting to another time, with at least
thirty days' written or electronic notice of the time and location of the
adjourned meeting. At any adjourned meting at which a quorum is
present, any business may be transacted which might have been
transacted at the original meeting. Withdrawal of directors at any meeting
shall not cause failure of a duly constituted quorum at that meeting.

This part directly precedes the "matters which require 7/8s vote" section I quoted earlier. Things in that section all deal with changing terms of directors, editing bylaws, and capital expenses, nothing about governing or accrediting programs. Matters involved in setting up RCCs are by simple majority alone. There are also detailed matters of quorum stating that at least 2 directors from each of the 5 (soon to be 6) members (AOA, AMA, ect...) must be present. If they sent all 7 directors, and each of the other 5 each send their 2 for a minimum quorum, there is still not enough for a veto vote on matters that affect residencies.

Again, the details of the resolution have yet to be established. The AOA may demand a narrower variance in board members to ensure their veto power over things which include their involvement - however all of these things require editing of the bylaws which requires an 80% vote to do, and unless I am mistaken, the current "agreement to work towards agreement" was subject to a simple majority, the actual numbers not withstanding - 80-85% of the current members (i.e. not AOA) will need to vote in favor including AOA board membership before any of that can happen in the first place. Until then the AOA programs have provisional accreditation that, technically, could be stripped at any time (again, unless there is something concrete that points to me being mistaken, but from what I have read the AOA is not a member until 2015, and nobody said that this motion will absolutely definitely go through. This is a major ACGME bargaining chip if I am correct)

Here is the part that we have been talking about that is a simple majority vote in which the AOA has lost power:
Quote:
ARTICLE XI - MODUS OPERANDI
Section 1. Establishing Institutional Requirements and Program Requirements for
Institutional and Program Evaluations:
a) Institutional Requirements: The Board of Directors shall adopt Institutional
Requirements for all institutions that sponsor ACGME accredited graduate
medical education programs. The Institutional Requirements may be
approved by a majority vote of the directors present and voting at any regular
meeting of the Board of Directors at which a quorum is present, provided that
the proposed change has been previously submitted in writing to the
directors for review and comment.
b) Program Requirements: Each Review Committee shall prepare Program
Requirements for the specialty programs over which it has cognizance. The
Program Requirements shall be approved by the respective Review
Committees, after review and comment by their Review Committee
appointing organizations, and then submitted for approval by the Board of
Directors. Program Requirements may be approved by a majority vote of the
directors present and voting at any regular meeting of the Board of Directors
at which a quorum is present.
Section 2. Accreditation:
a) Except as provided under Article XI, Subsection 2(c) of these Bylaws, the
Residency Review Committees shall evaluate and make recommendations
regarding the accreditation of programs in graduate medical education in
accordance with the Institutional and applicable Program Requirements,
notify program directors of their recommendations, and submit their
recommendations to the Board of Directors.
b) The Board of Directors shall accredit programs in accordance with
the Institutional and applicable Program Requirements, following receipt of
the recommendation from the appropriate RRC, and shall promptly notify the
program directors of its determination. The Board of Directors may establish
procedures to delegate its accreditation authority to an appeals panel which
includes the Executive Committee for appeals from expedited accreditation
actions.
c) Upon application of a Review Committee, including RRCs, the IRC, and the
TYRC, and following a review of its performance, the Board of Directors may
Relevant Excerpt from ACGME Bylaws, Policies and Procedures (approved 2/08)
Council of Review Committee Chairs
Page 3
delegate accreditation authority to the Review Committee. Such delegation
shall be for a period to be determined by the Board of Directors. The Board
of Directors shall conduct periodic reviews of the accreditation process of the
Review Committee and of its authority to accredit.
d) The Board of Directors shall have published annually the Institutional and
Program Requirements for accreditation of institutions and programs in
graduate medical
So, basically, each body gets to send "directors" who get to vote. The only thing the AOA can THEORETICALLY veto is removal of the AOA, or spending money (which is a non issue because I doubt they have too differing of fiscal interests). The RRCs are nominated, and voted upon, a simple majority vote system in which even though the AOA can nominate, it does not mean that they will be seated (although there was talk of the AOA requiring inclusion on RRCs for prior AOA programs, so that may be in the final product) at which point the RRC gives a recommendation and it is voted upon via simple majority by the board. There are at least 3 areas in which AOA interests can be subverted if the rest of the ACGME found it in their best interest.
 
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This is the verbatim response I gave in the other thread, but I felt the pre-meds may want to be aware of this as well. It isnt about picking at you personally or anything 😳

The point is, "DO-online.org" is not the AOA nor are they the ACGME. They are reporting facts as they interpret them, and that isnt necessarily the best source.

Here are the current ACGME bylaws concerning these things:

The author of the article I posted was the executive director of the AOA. I'm sure he has NO idea what he is talking about...🙄

Also, you just went from claiming that a veto vote is inconsequential, to the executive director of the AOA is just wrong and it doesn't matter anyway.

Although I admire your ability to find the specific bylaws (which I did read through), It honestly means nothing. We do not know what the new bylaws are going to be, and I apologize if I take the word of the executive director of the AOA over your interpretation of bylaws that will be changing.
 
I don't wnat to do this across 2 threads, but I will say again for good measure: the AOA exec chair is under pressure to spin things positively.

It is simply ridiculous to assume that he, as an individual without a vote in the ACGME (at least currently) knows how this is going to play out when the reality is that this 80% may be a major downside for the AOA at the same time. If an agreement is not met the AOA gets booted back out and DOs lose access to ACGME programs. You forget that everything is provisional and contingent upon a 2015 resolution. "successfully advocating" doesnt mean squat as of right now. It really only means that they require their minority vote on matters such that the ACGME can't pass whatever they want and subject the AOA to it... but strict AOA "vetoing", in reality, means not being included in the ACGME at all in 3 years.
 
I don't wnat to do this across 2 threads, but I will say again for good measure: the AOA exec chair is under pressure to spin things positively.

It is simply ridiculous to assume that he, as an individual without a vote in the ACGME (at least currently) knows how this is going to play out when the reality is that this 80% may be a major downside for the AOA at the same time. If an agreement is not met the AOA gets booted back out and DOs lose access to ACGME programs. You forget that everything is provisional and contingent upon a 2015 resolution. "successfully advocating" doesnt mean squat as of right now. It really only means that they require their minority vote on matters such that the ACGME can't pass whatever they want and subject the AOA to it... but strict AOA "vetoing", in reality, means not being included in the ACGME at all in 3 years.

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🙄 You are probably not following the other thread, but if you think the changes to the bylaws are going to be drastic in order to accommodate AOA interests you are fooling yourself. The ACGME has established their current bylaws via 80% popular vote over the last several years. Such a statement implies that at least 60% of the pre-AOA board members are going to have a change of heart suddenly. In all likelihood only the 2nd article which specifies who is a valid member of the organization is going to be edited establishing the AOA as a voting member in the same capacity as the 5 original members, and a section will be added under article XI protecting OMM in prior AOA programs. I find arguments that assume the AOA will get its way as it is transitioned in to be naive wishful thinking at best.
 
🙄 You are probably not following the other thread, but if you think the changes to the bylaws are going to be drastic in order to accommodate AOA interests you are fooling yourself. The ACGME has established their current bylaws via 80% popular vote over the last several years. Such a statement implies that at least 60% of the pre-AOA board members are going to have a change of heart suddenly. In all likelihood only the 2nd article which specifies who is a valid member of the organization is going to be edited establishing the AOA as a voting member in the same capacity as the 5 original members, and a section will be added under article XI protecting OMM in prior AOA programs. I find arguments that assume the AOA will get its way as it is transitioned in to be naive wishful thinking at best.

tiny note: there were 6 original members with 4 members on the board each. The AMA, AAMC, American Hospitals Association, American Board of Medical Specialties, County Medical Societies, and the ACGME with 4 members itself.
 
tiny note: there were 6 original members with 4 members on the board each. The AMA, AAMC, American Hospitals Association, American Board of Medical Specialties, County Medical Societies, and the ACGME with 4 members itself.

one of the FAQ pages I had open at the time had 5 so I ran with it.

Although, from the bylaws:
ARTICLE IV – MEMBERS
Section 1. Members: The members of the ACGME shall be the American Board of
Medical Specialties (“ABMS”), American Hospital Association (“AHA”),
American Medical Association (“AMA”), Association of American Medical
Colleges (“AAMC”), and Council of Medical Specialty Societies (“CMSS”).
The ACGME shall have one class of members.

That is 5, 6 if you count the ACGME itself (which I wasnt, but did mention this in my earlier larger post).

It also sets director numbers at 27-30, with the ACGME reps being listed in article V section 4 as "additional members", which means 5.4-6 members each (unless the ACGME members were included in section 2). There are currently 29 regular board members and 2 reps to the federal government. Currently no DOs, but you said it has happened in the past and I can't speak on that in either direction.

I am a little confused why the AOA would be given 7 votes, unless that is provisional simply for the meantime while they set up the new system. I can't imagine the other groups being ok with having lower voting power than the new guy :shrug: Unless the # has more to do with representation of # of programs or # of docs..... some calculation other than a simple equal share of the pie per organization.
 
I had heard it as 1/7th of the votes... not 7 votes. but I could be mistaken. which would make sense since the AOA would be 1/7th of the organizations represented.
 
Something interesting brought up to me on an interview the other day. (yes residency interview of all places).

Though the AOA is an exception to this... the ACGME has made zero references to FMGs and USFMGs in their documentation. There is generally a conscious effort to identify when things can impact then and how it does, but in this case there has been zero references to any interests of americans training in the islands or foreign physicians with aspirations to come here. The zero mention of these groups could be coincidental but seems to imply more of an "outside looking in" future for them looming in the distance.

The exception i mentioned is that the AOA has talked a surprising amount in their town halls about what impact they think the FMGs and USFMGs will see from this.
 
I had heard it as 1/7th of the votes... not 7 votes. but I could be mistaken. which would make sense since the AOA would be 1/7th of the organizations represented.

Maybe. I thought I read 7 in DocHocs post but I may have misread. 1/7th would make sense as it takes a 7/8 vote to change the bylaws which also supports the veto power thing

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Yeah his quote says "one of seven seats". Maybe this was talking about being one of the 7 represented groups and not actual board seats

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I agree that we need to one day, have a unified system for physicians in the US. Now, whether that is all DOs become MDs or vice versa.

How come Osteopathic residency programs can take only DOs, but Allopathic residency programs have to accept both DOs and MDs? Please don't say that it is because DOs can do OMTs! I'm sure that MDs can be taught to do OMTs, if they chose to join an AOA approved program. I hope ACGME does not duly accredit AOA programs, and continue to allow discrimination against MDs in their training programs. Now, that will be a travesty and most unfair to LCME grads!
 
Two questions:

Does this mean that Caribbean/international students can now apply to the former AOA residencies?

and

What's going to happen to the status of former AOA programs like radiology and derm (they require a transitional year before applying to those programs)? Are they going to be converted to categorical programs like their ACGME counterparts?

These are both interesting questions. Anybody have an answer? I'm curious as well.
 
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These are both interesting questions. Anybody have an answer? I'm curious as well.

I thought I answered them already.

1) The combining of MDs into AOA programs is not set in stone. And no matter how much we all sort of know it is coming, it is a non-agreed upon facet and is currently at "verbal agreement to do at some point" status. So no one knows if it is 3 years away, 8 years away, or 20 years away (probably 8 or less. but we dont know) because no one has a solution for how to equivicate OMT training, and how to rectify that some specialties use very little OMT. Until that is nailed out, there are still zero MDs in AOA programs for the immediate future and indefinitely (until more info comes out, which could be days, weeks, months, or years coming). When they do, it will likely be all MD and MD equivalents allowed in.

2) the AOA is still making the accrediting decisions for their programs except when it directly conflicts with ACGME. Since things like radiology being categorical vs "1-and-in" are trends and preferences, not rules, those residencies and their "Trends" are unlikely to change. Just how I wouldnt suspect you to see the 4 year AOA ER track become like ACGME ER, which is mostly 3 years. The AOA is being allowed to continue to run their own residencies even after the merger as a subcontractor of sorts (As of the last bit information dump on the matter)
 
Just got word from our dean the merger is pushed to 2018. Apparently there was some meeting in DC for DO deans (I'm sure others were there as well). Oh well....

That's all we were told.
 
so two separate matches until 2018?

Apparently. I'll be in D.C for the majority of next week and I'll see what the AOA leadership says about everything. I trust Docespanas opinion as well so we'll see what he has heard.
 
Thanks for the update Hockydoc. But man... what a crock of $hit.
 
Just got word from our dean the merger is pushed to 2018. Apparently there was some meeting in DC for DO deans (I'm sure others were there as well). Oh well....

That's all we were told.

Woah. Any mention of the reason why they pushed it?

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Any solid sources published for this info yet? Quick google search didn't turn anything up.

I haven't seen any official declaration about it on the AOA website: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

AOA, ACGME Move Toward Unified Accreditation for Graduate Medical Education Programs

The AOA, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) have entered into an agreement to create a single, unified accreditation system for graduate medical education programs in the United States beginning in July 2015. During the coming months, the three organizations will work toward defining a process, format and timetable for ACGME to accredit all osteopathic graduate medical education programs currently accredited by the AOA. The AOA and AACOM would then become organizational members of ACGME.

The agreement follows more than a year of advocacy work by the AOA to preserve DOs' access to ACGME programs.

It also shows that the unification process timeline hasn't been changed, either: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/acgme-policy-timeline.aspx

Timeline: AOA Response to ACGME Changes

Timeline of requests by the AOA to address the ACGME's proposed common program requirements:

July 2013 ​– The AOA to present Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to its Board.

June 2013 ​– The ACGME to present draft MOU to its Board.

April/May 2013 – Next meeting of the AOA/ACMGE Joint Task Force.

March 12, 2013 – AOA/ACGME monthly staff meeting.

March 4, 2013 – AOA Board of Trustees meets to discuss the status of the proposed GME accreditation system.

​Feb. 25, 2013 – Tentative date for the next meeting of the AOA/ACGME Joint Task Force.

Feb. 2-4, 2013 – ACGME Board of Directors meeting. We anticipate a draft MOU will be presented to their Board at this time.​
 
I haven't read anything about any changes. The following online information from TheDO is still not changed, either.

In this video, AOA Executive Director John B. Crosby, JD, reviews the plan and explains what will happen next and how it will affect DOs and osteopathic medical students.

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=115861
 
I haven't seen any official declaration about it on the AOA website: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

AOA, ACGME Move Toward Unified Accreditation for Graduate Medical Education Programs

The AOA, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) have entered into an agreement to create a single, unified accreditation system for graduate medical education programs in the United States beginning in July 2015. During the coming months, the three organizations will work toward defining a process, format and timetable for ACGME to accredit all osteopathic graduate medical education programs currently accredited by the AOA. The AOA and AACOM would then become organizational members of ACGME.

The agreement follows more than a year of advocacy work by the AOA to preserve DOs' access to ACGME programs.

It also shows that the unification process timeline hasn't been changed, either: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/acgme-policy-timeline.aspx

Timeline: AOA Response to ACGME Changes

Timeline of requests by the AOA to address the ACGME's proposed common program requirements:

July 2013 ​– The AOA to present Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to its Board.

June 2013 ​– The ACGME to present draft MOU to its Board.

April/May 2013 – Next meeting of the AOA/ACMGE Joint Task Force.

March 12, 2013 – AOA/ACGME monthly staff meeting.

March 4, 2013 – AOA Board of Trustees meets to discuss the status of the proposed GME accreditation system.

​Feb. 25, 2013 – Tentative date for the next meeting of the AOA/ACGME Joint Task Force.

Feb. 2-4, 2013 – ACGME Board of Directors meeting. We anticipate a draft MOU will be presented to their Board at this time.​
Given the timing of HockeyDr's post, I'd assume this was the result of the Feb25/March 4th meetings. Not enough time for the spin doctors to create an official press release.
 
This email from the ACOFP may give a hint about the situation:

At ACOFP '13 later this month, the 2013 ACOFP Congress of Delegates will consider a resolution about the proposed Unified Graduate Medical Education Accreditation System with the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education.

The resolution, submitted by the Michigan Association of Osteopathic Family Physicians, stipulates that any proposed memorandum of understanding be fully vetted throughout the osteopathic community and educational institutions before the AOA signs it.

If approved, the resolution also would seek to ensure that any accreditation system would guarantee protection and preservation of osteopathic medicine, osteopathic graduate medical education, osteopathic board certification, osteopathic specialty colleges, the ACOFP, and the osteopathic profession.

My guess is that there is some resistance to all of this from within. Just my speculation, which doesn't mean jack, but it looks like self-preservation (and subsequent feelings of distinction) are at play here.

One may wonder if there are fears of impending absorption as a long term result of this merger.
 
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