MD Enough research for Harvard/Hopkins/Yale?

[jared_the_great]

3.8 cGPA / 3.9 sGPA / 39 MCAT*

non-trad with over a decade of tech work

Solid EC's:

• lots of hours spanning several years volunteering in a top leadership position in a very visible and respected non-profit (non-clinical)
  
• lots more hours volunteering in various other (non-clinical) ways over the last 15 years
• 70+ hours physician shadowing in three specialties
• varied teaching & tutoring experiences over the years
• almost all EC's include some element of leadership and/or mentorship

Weak EC's:

• clinical volunteering for a few hours a week over one semester; still ongoing (~30 hours total so far)
  
• did some EMT training (with patient interaction) and scut work in a hospital (no patient interaction) for one summer a long time ago
  
• interesting research, but only started a few months ago and plan to continue through next year; one poster presentation and no pubs so far

Applying this cycle.

I feel like my app is solid except for clinical volunteering and research, both of which I really just started. And I know those two things are huge, especially for top schools. So even though my numbers are on par for schools like Harvard and Hopkins, do I really have a shot? If not, where else should I be focusing my app?


* actual MCAT score pending, but 39 is a very reasonable prediction based on practice exams, so let's just pretend that's what it is for the sake of the discussion

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[BillrothI]

Unfortunately, I don't think you have nearly enough clinical volunteer experience or research to land an acceptance at a top school. Your numbers are very impressive, but that's just not enough these days. It would probably be in your best interest to aim primarily for mid-tier schools with some reaches thrown in for good measure.

Good luck.

-Bill

 

[zzxxzz]

First, keep in mind that more people applied last year with the same/better stats than there are seats at Harvard, Hopkins, and Yale combined.

Many of them had very strong ECs as well. The only guy I know at one of those schools had 4 publications. He did research full-time, including summers, for his entire college career, right up to graduation.

Do you have a shot? Yes. Statistically, you're in the top 1% of all med school applicants. Your hard work has paid off. Do you have a good shot? Honestly, it's hard to tell. Your clinical ECs don't look amazing - did you just train to be an EMT, or actually work as one? - and frankly, one poster presentation isn't amazing considering 97% of accepted applicants to those schools had research experience. Keep in mind that schools will consider your age when they compare your ECs to those of 21 year olds, many of whom have dedicated every moment of their undergrad careers to getting into one of these schools.

You can apply if you like. I'd probably consider some less-competitive schools as well. Just being a good student isn't enough.

 

[The Milkman]

When you say a decade of tech work, what kind of tech do you mean? If you're talking like nurse tech in a hospital, then don't worry about clinical volunteering. You would have plenty of clinical experience and then plenty of volunteering. If not though, disregard my last statement.

 

[jared_the_great]

When you say a decade of tech work, what kind of tech do you mean? If you're talking like nurse tech in a hospital, then don't worry about clinical volunteering. You would have plenty of clinical experience and then plenty of volunteering. If not though, disregard my last statement.

Technical engineering. Not at all related to medicine.

did you just train to be an EMT, or actually work as one?

Got certified, but never worked as an EMT. During training I spent time in an ER, taking vitals and assisting with procedures. It wasn't much time overall, but I did more than bringing drinks and pillows.


It's so hard to be objective about yourself. On the one hand, I feel like nothing on my app is too extraordinary and my research and clinical is really lacking. On the other hand, though, if I compare my EC's to many other posters', I think in many ways mine would stand out. For example, when I say leadership, I don't mean student government or president of the premed club. I mean I started a business and managed employees and subcontractors. I oversee a department for the entire state for a big-time non-profit. I've been on non-profit boards of directors. And when I say teaching, I don't mean I tutored other students in college (though I did that too). I mean I taught class in a university. I taught high school full time.

From what I've read, top schools prioritize research, but they also prioritize leadership and teaching. How much could legit experiences in the latter compensate for mediocre experiences with the former?

I keep reading about people rejected from lower-tier and mid-level schools for having too high scores, and advice is given to apply to schools where your stats are average. So am I going to be rejected from mid-level schools for having a 39 MCAT and rejected from top schools for having mediocre research experience? Ugh.

 

[Mr.Happy]

My suggestion is to apply to ten top schools and 10 mid-tier schools. Start working real hard on increasing your research and clinical hours now. Periodically send updates (letter of intent) to all your colleges letting them know how you are doing in regards to your clinical volunteering and research.

 

[zzxxzz]

I keep reading about people rejected from lower-tier and mid-level schools for having too high scores, and advice is given to apply to schools where your stats are average. So am I going to be rejected from mid-level schools for having a 39 MCAT and rejected from top schools for having mediocre research experience? Ugh.

Ok, just to be clear:

1) You probably have a good shot at these schools. You aren't a slam dunk, but you do have a shot, and that's more than 95%+ of applicants can say. Go ahead and apply, just don't expect multiple admissions or anything. I'd be surprised if you don't get some interviews.

2) People get rejected from schools with a median MCAT of 29-31 when they apply with 35+ because schools assume the person will choose most of the schools on his/her list over that school. The gulf between the 29s-30s and the 34s is much greater than the 34s and 37s; the "midrange schools" are still great programs with individual attributes top schools may not have. You will get consideration at many midrange and upper-range, schools.

A good number to look at on the MSRA is the 90th percentile MCAT score for admitted students. If it's below, say, 36, you might not have a shot. But let's look at middle-range schools like Rochester or Cincinnati (both 34 MCAT, 3.7 GPA). 10% of the people they admitted scored above 38. Same goes for a number of other schools; how about Loyola (33/3.7) with 10% of admitted applicants scoring above a 37? The 10% might seem low, but these high scores are pretty rare so the acceptance rate has to be good. You got plenty of options across the board.

 

[DokterMom]

I like @Mr.Happy's suggestion of applying to ten schools in the 'Top 20' (US News ranking) and ten in the 30-50 range. I'd agree that when your stats are above the 90% for a school that you're at risk of being ignored as over-qualified.

 

[jared_the_great]

Thanks everyone. Your advice all seems pretty solid, and on track with what I had in mind.

I think I'll go ahead and apply to a handful of top schools, another handful of mid-level schools, and throw in my state school for good measure. We'll see where the chips fall.

 

[masaraksh]

... and be prepared to answer "why the career change?"

 

[jared_the_great]

... and be prepared to answer "why the career change?"

Yeah definitely, thanks. The answer is all over my PS and activities section, and I certainly don't have a hard time talking about it.

 

[ichor]

Unfortunately, I don't think you have nearly enough clinical volunteer experience or research to land an acceptance at a top school. Your numbers are very impressive, but that's just not enough these days. It would probably be in your best interest to aim primarily for mid-tier schools with some reaches thrown in for good measure.

Good luck.

-Bill

@BillrothI
What would you say is a good number of clinical volunteer hours to aim for, for top schools?

 

[BillrothI]

@BillrothI
What would you say is a good number of clinical volunteer hours to aim for, for top schools?

It depends on a multitude of other factors: research and leadership experience, non-clinical volunteering, grades, MCAT score, etc. If, for example, an applicant has a very strong research background with multiple publications, he or she could probably get away with less than 500 hours of clinical experience. On the other hand, an applicant who has spent less time in the lab might be expected to have a much larger number of hours of clinical work. Both applicants will need at least some shadowing (IMHO).

-Bill