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SLP-NP

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Hello everyone!
Im an undergraduate student who is currently attaining a bachelors in Communication Disorders. I enjoy this field alot, and initially hoped to become a certified Speech Language Pathologist. SLPs do so much good, but recently as Ive advanced in my studies, I found myself wishing for more options and even more resources to treat potential patients. I did some research on my own, and came across healthcare providers such as nurse practitioners who work in ENT clinics. I thought this would be a really positive path to pursue that blends aspects of communication disorders with the broader range of medicine. As I will be attaining my non BSN bachelors, I was looking into prospective NP programs, and thought that an accelerated direct entry might be what Im looking for if I choose this route. I was wondering if anyone had experiences with working in ENT clinics or departments, or experiences with direct entry nursing programs and job opportunities afterwards. What are your thoughts of such programs? Is there a demand for ENT nurse practitioners?

Thanks in advance!
 

pamac

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Yes, there is a place for NPs in ent, but their role may not be what you would expect out of it. You will be in an office seeing patients, one after another, in relatively short blocks of time. Anything that needs attention from the physician (things needing surgery or advanced cases) will be referred to him or her. You *may* have a role in surgery assisting if you have built up a skill set for that setting. You won’t be employing much in the way of therapeutic approaches for yourself. You will refer out that kind of work if it comes to that. Your value will rest mostly in your ability to perform medical assessments and prescribe medications and treatments... most likely in 15-30 minute increments (most likely closer to the 15 minute kind). You’ll see a ton of colds and allergies, earaches and balance issues, hearing problems, swallowing problems, and many more things beyond speech issues. It could be that you are there to screen for the big stuff that the physician would handle, or you could be doing a lot of follow up. But overall, imagine yourself doing a lot of the kinds of work that you would think would be typical of any other NP or PA in any other field. I think it will be closer to that than what you might be imagining. And if that is something that appeals to you, then pursue it.

SLPs can do pretty well financially.
 

SLP-NP

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Yes, there is a place for NPs in ent, but their role may not be what you would expect out of it. You will be in an office seeing patients, one after another, in relatively short blocks of time. Anything that needs attention from the physician (things needing surgery or advanced cases) will be referred to him or her. You *may* have a role in surgery assisting if you have built up a skill set for that setting. You won’t be employing much in the way of therapeutic approaches for yourself. You will refer out that kind of work if it comes to that. Your value will rest mostly in your ability to perform medical assessments and prescribe medications and treatments... most likely in 15-30 minute increments (most likely closer to the 15 minute kind). You’ll see a ton of colds and allergies, earaches and balance issues, hearing problems, swallowing problems, and many more things beyond speech issues. It could be that you are there to screen for the big stuff that the physician would handle, or you could be doing a lot of follow up. But overall, imagine yourself doing a lot of the kinds of work that you would think would be typical of any other NP or PA in any other field. I think it will be closer to that than what you might be imagining. And if that is something that appeals to you, then pursue it.

SLPs can do pretty well financially.

Thank you for your input!

From what you've written, that seems to be alot of what I am covering in undergrad right now as a Com Dis major. Alot of our foundation teaches us to identify things like balance issues or more specifically what would be causing them ( like otitis media, or things like identifying types of cleft palates and working from there) and how it alters speech specifically. I think with NP Id be able to broaden that aspect and go beyond strictly speech problems which is appealing.

Thanks!
 
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Thank you for your input!

From what you've written, that seems to be alot of what I am covering in undergrad right now as a Com Dis major. Alot of our foundation teaches us to identify things like balance issues or more specifically what would be causing them ( like otitis media, or things like identifying types of cleft palates and working from there) and how it alters speech specifically. I think with NP Id be able to broaden that aspect and go beyond strictly speech problems which is appealing.

Thanks!

Do you have any interest in being a RN, or do you simply want to be a provider? If you have no interest in nursing I suggest you go PA. Good luck in whatever you choose.
 

pamac

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So I’m not entirely in the camp of PA being the best choice for everyone with a bachelors degree who lacks a nursing background, especially considering the OP mentioned direct entry, which is a distinct departure from the overwhelmingly typical RN to NP pathway. Once you branch into that plan, there are different considerations that are valid. For one, not everyone wants to be encumbered by having to have a formalized supervisory arrangement with a physician. In psyche, the lack of such a forced arrangement in independent practice states has resulted in increased wages and utilization for NPs that has been to their benefit. I’d pursue NP under any route (and did so) rather than settle for being a PA. It took longer to become a nurse and then take on NP school, but the benefits are clear when I see that psyche PAs make almost $50k less here than psyche NPs. And some folks just want the satisfaction of being their own person with their destiny in their hands. I may not ever take on the headache of opening my own practice as an NP... but I could. And the thought of being able to make that decision on my own makes me happy. That latitude adds value and security, and can’t be understated. Think about it... as long as someone is licensed, they can take cash customers, and peddle their trade, and make enough to at least survive (and possibly even become wealthy). That’s a decision they can make without finding someone else (a physician) to agree to allow them to do it. Your license and ability to practice is yours.


Not everyone wants to spend much time (if at all) in the nursing world as a way to pay dues to become an NP. In rare cases, the NP world has come through with an alternative to that in the form of direct entry NP programs. They are rare, tend to be very expensive, and require relocation to the handful of cities where they exist, but they turn out a good provider from what I’ve encountered. I hated most of the medical end of nursing, and if I could do one thing different, it would be to have just immediately started NP school upon obtaining my RN. The nursing degree is valuable, and I appreciate its utility, but it was a means to an end. In most circumstances, I don’t think there is a magic number of years one needs to wallow in the realm of patient care before moving on to become an NP. A little experience is preferable to none, and even in DE programs, a certain amount of exposure is baked into the system. But I think your typical NP wannabe who graduates and goes directly to Np school and works as a nurse is on track to do well. Those who insist on nurses waiting 5 years (or some other unreasonable amount of time) to get RN experience before Np school is either someone who did it themselves (and is a know-it-all) or someone who isn’t even pursuing NP and doesn’t know what they are talking about.


So... sure... consider PA. You’ll likely need at least a year of prerequisites....probably more... before you can apply. Then you wait another year while they select from their applicants. Then 2 years of school. 4 years total under the best of circumstances... more than that is likely because you will probably have to do a bunch of chemistry and other prerequisites.


Or.... get into a 1 year accelerated BSN program, then after that, immediately do a 2 year NP program while you make $75k per year working as a nurse. Network with potential employers and folks in the industry while you work and do NP school, do clinicals nearby, and then have a job waiting for you in ENT when you are done. 3 years total.


Or.... relocate to a city where there is a direct entry Np school, and be done in 3 years, and then move back home and look for a job where you haven’t been for 3 years. More expensive too. Other drawbacks I haven’t gone into.



As you might be able to tell, I’m painting a picture for what I would consider your best options overall. Direct entry is an option, but there is a way to tailor your own direct entry-like program with an accelerated BSN.
 
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pamac

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We can talk finances too. I’m a broken record on that.

PA school is usually close to $100k for school alone. Plan on that because schools that are cheaper are ones everyone applies to... meaning tough to get into, and it’s impossible to rely on that possibility. Then you have living expenses. It costs me at least $35k per year to live like I do with a house, family, paid off cars, vacations (we take plenty), and ancillary expenses. It might be more, but my spouses income comes into play as well. During PA school, working can be a liability on your time that you can’t afford. In other words, the time you spend working isn’t worth the money you bring in because it taxes your ability to make the grades you need to pass. So it’s better to also plan on not working. You may be tempted here and there to pick up hours, but why not spend that time recouping from a demanding program, or studying more. What is the extra $450 bucks here or there for a shift when it risks affecting your future earning potential?

Direct entry NP is the same boat roughly. Expensive. I can’t say for sure but I think it’s at least as much as PA school. In a lot of those programs, you become an RN after the first year, and can work, or else they have you set up with a job maybe (don’t know about that last part though). So anyway, you aren’t really working a lot because they have a heavy school workload for you.

The option I would do is accelerated BSN, and then NP school immediately (preferably an online hybrid NP program). Because you have a bachelors degree, you can then qualify for one of the many accelerated BSN programs around, and be done in 12-18 months (the 12 month option is becoming very common). Get your BSN, get a job, and immediately start your NP program. Make nurses wages. Accelerated BSN programs can cost anywhere from reasonable ($24k) to uncanny ($100k for people dumb enough to choose one that costs that much). And a decent NP school shouldn’t cost much more than $45k, and can be as cheap as $25k. If you are making $65k-$75k as a new nurse, you can get out of that situation with all your debt covered. And if you network while you are in school, work, and even clinical, you’ll have your ENT job ready to go before you even graduate. The only NPs that I personally know, in or out of psyche, that don’t have jobs set up before graduation are ones that really aren’t trying hard.... the folks that are pretty close to being messes....most of the time due to emotional issues or severe disorganization, or lack of application. Everyone else seems to pull it together, even in a place like I’m at that is considered somewhat saturated with providers.

Full time work fussing school is possible if you lay the ground work.

Let’s revisit the notion of you staying in SLP. Think about no more school, and no having to do school AND work at the same time, and making $80k per year (and getting raises and other opportunities in SLP). If you put the same amount of energy into an SLP career as you are going to have to put into becoming an NP or PA, don’t you think you’d see the kind of return that could see you making $100k as an SLP? With the head start you would have, you’d have an even bigger cushion of cash. You are already there, and can start your life.... regular work weeks, time with the family and or friends, hobbies.... even television. Life is more than the prestige you think you’ll have.
 
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So I’m not entirely in the camp of PA being the best choice for everyone with a bachelors degree who lacks a nursing background, especially considering the OP mentioned direct entry, which is a distinct departure from the overwhelmingly typical RN to NP pathway. Once you branch into that plan, there are different considerations that are valid. For one, not everyone wants to be encumbered by having to have a formalized supervisory arrangement with a physician. In psyche, the lack of such a forced arrangement in independent practice states has resulted in increased wages and utilization for NPs that has been to their benefit. I’d pursue NP under any route (and did so) rather than settle for being a PA. It took longer to become a nurse and then take on NP school, but the benefits are clear when I see that psyche PAs make almost $50k less here than psyche NPs. And some folks just want the satisfaction of being their own person with their destiny in their hands. I may not ever take on the headache of opening my own practice as an NP... but I could. And the thought of being able to make that decision on my own makes me happy. That latitude adds value and security, and can’t be understated. Think about it... as long as someone is licensed, they can take cash customers, and peddle their trade, and make enough to at least survive (and possibly even become wealthy). That’s a decision they can make without finding someone else (a physician) to agree to allow them to do it. Your license and ability to practice is yours.


Not everyone wants to spend much time (if at all) in the nursing world as a way to pay dues to become an NP. In rare cases, the NP world has come through with an alternative to that in the form of direct entry NP programs. They are rare, tend to be very expensive, and require relocation to the handful of cities where they exist, but they turn out a good provider from what I’ve encountered. I hated most of the medical end of nursing, and if I could do one thing different, it would be to have just immediately started NP school upon obtaining my RN. The nursing degree is valuable, and I appreciate its utility, but it was a means to an end. In most circumstances, I don’t think there is a magic number of years one needs to wallow in the realm of patient care before moving on to become an NP. A little experience is preferable to none, and even in DE programs, a certain amount of exposure is baked into the system. But I think your typical NP wannabe who graduates and goes directly to Np school and works as a nurse is on track to do well. Those who insist on nurses waiting 5 years (or some other unreasonable amount of time) to get RN experience before Np school is either someone who did it themselves (and is a know-it-all) or someone who isn’t even pursuing NP and doesn’t know what they are talking about.


So... sure... consider PA. You’ll likely need at least a year of prerequisites....probably more... before you can apply. Then you wait another year while they select from their applicants. Then 2 years of school. 4 years total under the best of circumstances... more than that is likely because you will probably have to do a bunch of chemistry and other prerequisites.


Or.... get into a 1 year accelerated BSN program, then after that, immediately do a 2 year NP program while you make $75k per year working as a nurse. Network with potential employers and folks in the industry while you work and do NP school, do clinicals nearby, and then have a job waiting for you in ENT when you are done. 3 years total.


Or.... relocate to a city where there is a direct entry Np school, and be done in 3 years, and then move back home and look for a job where you haven’t been for 3 years. More expensive too. Other drawbacks I haven’t gone into.



As you might be able to tell, I’m painting a picture for what I would consider your best options overall. Direct entry is an option, but there is a way to tailor your own direct entry-like program with an accelerated BSN.

As we know, nursing school is tough, and it’s even tougher for a person to endure nursing school while not wanting to be a nurse. You raise some valid points, but a person in nursing school needs to have an interest in nursing imo. If they don’t it will show. If a person wants to be a provider and dislikes nursing, they should go PA, that’s why I was asking the question.
 

pamac

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Nursing school is nowhere near as academically rigorous as P.A. school, nor even the prerequisite courses for P.A. school. Part of the reason I breezed into and through nursing school while everyone else struggled was because I had been premed/pre PA. The hard part of nursing school is off-balance nursing faculty who make life as difficult as they can due to the “eat your young” mentality that pervades.... trying to get people kicked out for minor subjective standards, and changing obscure rules on the fly, etc.

Most everyone who goes to Np school is casting their vote of disinterest in being a nurse simply by their career path. You are, and I am. If this weren’t the case, we’d stay bedside, right? What difference does it make if that disinterest is manifest from the very start, or 5 years into it like we had? We are opting out right as our clinical skills are ramping up considerably. Face it, we abandoned nursing just like any new grad who immediately continues on towards NP. Who are we to tell anyone to do otherwise? If we are, it’s only out of the “pay your dues” mindset that isn’t taking into consideration the best interests of the person we would be preaching that to.
 

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Nursing school is nowhere near as academically rigorous as P.A. school, nor even the prerequisite courses for P.A. school. Part of the reason I breezed into and through nursing school while everyone else struggled was because I had been premed/pre PA. The hard part of nursing school is off-balance nursing faculty who make life as difficult as they can due to the “eat your young” mentality that pervades.... trying to get people kicked out for minor subjective standards, and changing obscure rules on the fly, etc.

Most everyone who goes to Np school is casting their vote of disinterest in being a nurse simply by their career path. You are, and I am. If this weren’t the case, we’d stay bedside, right? What difference does it make if that disinterest is manifest from the very start, or 5 years into it like we had? We are opting out right as our clinical skills are ramping up considerably. Face it, we abandoned nursing just like any new grad who immediately continues on towards NP. Who are we to tell anyone to do otherwise? If we are, it’s only out of the “pay your dues” mindset that isn’t taking into consideration the best interests of the person we would be preaching that to.
As a medical student I'm confused by the whole gunning for NP thing. If you wanted to be a provider from the get-go, I don't get why you don't pursue medical school. NP seemed like a nice route for someone who has been a nurse for several years to change direction, but I don't get the whole direct matriculation thing. Soon the whole country will be full of NPs and Docs with no nurses to do anything for them
 
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Nursing school is nowhere near as academically rigorous as P.A. school, nor even the prerequisite courses for P.A. school. Part of the reason I breezed into and through nursing school while everyone else struggled was because I had been premed/pre PA. The hard part of nursing school is off-balance nursing faculty who make life as difficult as they can due to the “eat your young” mentality that pervades.... trying to get people kicked out for minor subjective standards, and changing obscure rules on the fly, etc.

Most everyone who goes to Np school is casting their vote of disinterest in being a nurse simply by their career path. You are, and I am. If this weren’t the case, we’d stay bedside, right? What difference does it make if that disinterest is manifest from the very start, or 5 years into it like we had? We are opting out right as our clinical skills are ramping up considerably. Face it, we abandoned nursing just like any new grad who immediately continues on towards NP. Who are we to tell anyone to do otherwise? If we are, it’s only out of the “pay your dues” mindset that isn’t taking into consideration the best interests of the person we would be preaching that to.

Being a nurse has been one the greatest joys of my life. I am leaving the bedside not because I no longer love nursing, but because I want to grow as a person and as a provider as well some physical reasons. I should have clarified that when I said that nursing school was tough, I didn’t really mean academically. We both know what I’m talking about.

If a person wants to be a provider and is not a nurse, I still recommend PA school over NP. Agree to disagree on this one.
 
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As a medical student I'm confused by the whole gunning for NP thing. If you wanted to be a provider from the get-go, I don't get why you don't pursue medical school. NP seemed like a nice route for someone who has been a nurse for several years to change direction, but I don't get the whole direct matriculation thing. Soon the whole country will be full of NPs and Docs with no nurses to do anything for them

As a medical student you aren’t going to understand being a slave to the call light, the EHR, and the hospital. We don’t expect you to.
 

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As a medical student you aren’t going to understand being a slave to the call light, the EHR, and the hospital. We don’t expect you to.

If you keep pushing that kind of attitude onto the younger generations you'll just disproportionately incentivize people to pursue mid-level over being a physician. If more people who had the capacity to become physicians went to medical school, the burden on Doctors being a "slave" would be lighter, no? Also, why so hostile? OP Asked about being an ENT NP, but if she's truly passionate about it, why not just become an ENT? You can make a huge difference in people's lives and have a very direct hand in doing so

Also I have a friend who is a PA who has dreamt of always working in Plastics. Unfortunately, no one wants a fresh PA for a surgical subspecialty. So she has been working for a few years now at a Rehabilitation center and is now transitioning into Urology.

Just because you become an NP doesn't mean you're gonna walk into any ENTs office and begin working. You may have to do a lot of grunt work to get to where you want to be - this is going to be the case with most medical professions, unless of course you did an ENT residency - but - you have to make sure you're 100% dead set on healthcare as a whole because ENT may not be where you end up.
 
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If you keep pushing that kind of attitude onto the younger generations you'll just disproportionately incentivize people to pursue mid-level over being a physician. If more people who had the capacity to become physicians went to medical school, the burden on Doctors being a "slave" would be lighter, no? Also, why so hostile? OP Asked about being an ENT NP, but if she's truly passionate about it, why not just become an ENT? You can make a huge difference in people's lives and have a very direct hand in doing so

Also I have a friend who is a PA who has dreamt of always working in Plastics. Unfortunately, no one wants a fresh PA for a surgical subspecialty. So she has been working for a few years now at a Rehabilitation center and is now transitioning into Urology.

Just because you become an NP doesn't mean you're gonna walk into any ENTs office and begin working. You may have to do a lot of grunt work to get to where you want to be - this is going to be the case with most medical professions, unless of course you did an ENT residency - but - you have to make sure you're 100% dead set on healthcare as a whole because ENT may not be where you end up.

I was making a statement that you, as a medical student, will not understand many of the challenges of being a bedside RN, or why some people decide to become midlevels as a result. The only hostility here is coming from you. I also don’t know why a medical student is giving advice at all to a poster who is trying to decide between NP and PA.
 
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pamac

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As a medical student I'm confused by the whole gunning for NP thing. If you wanted to be a provider from the get-go, I don't get why you don't pursue medical school. NP seemed like a nice route for someone who has been a nurse for several years to change direction, but I don't get the whole direct matriculation thing. Soon the whole country will be full of NPs and Docs with no nurses to do anything for them

There are a lot of reasons one should “gun” for being an NP. Not everyone that wants to get into medical school or be a medical provider has a seat waiting for them, whether due to scarcity, grades, competitiveness of entrance, finances. There is an arbitrary cutoff for entrance that is dictated by the limited supply of seats. Additionally, some people can’t relocate, nor have a medical school nearby. Some folks don’t want to take on debt or can’t put in 10 years into training due to personal factors. But regardless of the reason, its not for you to question the motives of those who would seek to be PAs or NPs when medical schools turn away over half of their applicants. Chime in again about that when that situation changes. If the country is overrun by NPs and PAs, it will be because the medical community restricted supply (or has supply restrictions placed upon it). And on top of that, maybe you should go be a nurse and bite that bullet instead of going to medical school. Or is nursing for someone else that’s not you?


If you keep pushing that kind of attitude onto the younger generations you'll just disproportionately incentivize people to pursue mid-level over being a physician. If more people who had the capacity to become physicians went to medical school, the burden on Doctors being a "slave" would be lighter, no? Also, why so hostile? OP Asked about being an ENT NP, but if she's truly passionate about it, why not just become an ENT? You can make a huge difference in people's lives and have a very direct hand in doing so

Also I have a friend who is a PA who has dreamt of always working in Plastics. Unfortunately, no one wants a fresh PA for a surgical subspecialty. So she has been working for a few years now at a Rehabilitation center and is now transitioning into Urology.

Just because you become an NP doesn't mean you're gonna walk into any ENTs office and begin working. You may have to do a lot of grunt work to get to where you want to be - this is going to be the case with most medical professions, unless of course you did an ENT residency - but - you have to make sure you're 100% dead set on healthcare as a whole because ENT may not be where you end up.

And likewise, just because a medical student wants to be an ENT doesn’t mean they will get the opportunity to match into the specialty either. It’s a possibility for everyone that their path will require some challenge. Like you, I think it’s wise to not base one’s goals so precisely upon a certain specialty, but I wouldn’t discourage someone who has that goal in mind by suggesting that they shouldn’t pursue it due to the remote possibility of failure.

But again, you have a very narrow view of who belongs where, and seem blind to the circumstances of people who aren’t in situations that mirror your own. It’s similar to the myopy of telling a starving homeless man to go buy a cake to eat.
 
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KeikoTanaka

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I was making a statement that you, as a medical student, will not understand many of the challenges of being a bedside RN, or why some people decide to become midlevels as a result. The only hostility here is coming from you. I also don’t know why a medical student is giving advice at all to a poster who is trying to decide between NP and PA.

I wasn't being hostile, but you assuming what I know or don't know was a bit condescending. You literally have no idea what I have done or know.
 

pamac

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You may not have felt hostility in what you said, but you definitely communicated condescension towards the suggestion that anyone should pursue P.A. or NP roles instead of laying down money and time in pursuit of medical school. And it’s tone deaf considering mental health patients in my area face a waiting list of about 3 months to see a psychiatrist. So thank goodness for NPs for stepping up to help with that. But the easy thing for medical students to say is that we just need to have physicians leading the charge, when in reality they are the ones who stand to gain the most from that situation. Seems self serving.
 
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As someone who has had no hand in shaping the current state of medicine in the US, I cannot apologize for the long wait lists to see physicians in shortage, or the fact that admissions do not accept many kids, or the fact that the government does not fund more residency programs. Just because I am a medical student doesn't mean I want to propagate the inefficiencies in our medical / educational system either. Me promoting the idea of pursuing medical school is simply because I have loved it so much more than I could have imagined, and I feel others should give it a fair look at as well. If you're going from being a speech therapist to the idea of being an NP, in my mind you're actually somewhat okay with giving up the whole speech therapy component of practice, because you're going to spend 4-7 years training in everything BUT ENT and speech therapy. However, if her sole purpose is actually to really help people, there are countless specialties in medicine such as Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, ENT, and even primary care, where you can have a big hand in helping people. PMR is actually interesting, you could be doing rehab for countless of pathologies, not just speech! And Pamac, I'm sorry if there was a level of condescension, that was not my intent. I also feel like "IKnowImnotADoctor" was also just angry that I even brought up the idea because, from what he said, he clearly has a very negative light of the profession and the state of healthcare - but we do need good people in healthcare to change those things, so yes, I will promote it.
 
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As someone who has had no hand in shaping the current state of medicine in the US, I cannot apologize for the long wait lists to see physicians in shortage, or the fact that admissions do not accept many kids, or the fact that the government does not fund more residency programs. Just because I am a medical student doesn't mean I want to propagate the inefficiencies in our medical / educational system either. Me promoting the idea of pursuing medical school is simply because I have loved it so much more than I could have imagined, and I feel others should give it a fair look at as well. If you're going from being a speech therapist to the idea of being an NP, in my mind you're actually somewhat okay with giving up the whole speech therapy component of practice, because you're going to spend 4-7 years training in everything BUT ENT and speech therapy. However, if her sole purpose is actually to really help people, there are countless specialties in medicine such as Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, ENT, and even primary care, where you can have a big hand in helping people. PMR is actually interesting, you could be doing rehab for countless of pathologies, not just speech! And Pamac, I'm sorry if there was a level of condescension, that was not my intent. I also feel like "IKnowImnotADoctor" was also just angry that I even brought up the idea because, from what he said, he clearly has a very negative light of the profession and the state of healthcare - but we do need good people in healthcare to change those things, so yes, I will promote it.

Of what profession do I have a negative opinion of?
 

pamac

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As someone who has had no hand in shaping the current state of medicine in the US, I cannot apologize for the long wait lists to see physicians in shortage, or the fact that admissions do not accept many kids, or the fact that the government does not fund more residency programs. Just because I am a medical student doesn't mean I want to propagate the inefficiencies in our medical / educational system either. Me promoting the idea of pursuing medical school is simply because I have loved it so much more than I could have imagined, and I feel others should give it a fair look at as well. If you're going from being a speech therapist to the idea of being an NP, in my mind you're actually somewhat okay with giving up the whole speech therapy component of practice, because you're going to spend 4-7 years training in everything BUT ENT and speech therapy. However, if her sole purpose is actually to really help people, there are countless specialties in medicine such as Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, ENT, and even primary care, where you can have a big hand in helping people. PMR is actually interesting, you could be doing rehab for countless of pathologies, not just speech! And Pamac, I'm sorry if there was a level of condescension, that was not my intent. I also feel like "IKnowImnotADoctor" was also just angry that I even brought up the idea because, from what he said, he clearly has a very negative light of the profession and the state of healthcare - but we do need good people in healthcare to change those things, so yes, I will promote it.

I don’t think you are intentionally being condescending, and I’m not part of the outrage police, but most of what you say seems to boil down to the notion that to get maximum ability to help people, one must become a physician, in any specialty. I’d venture to say that an NP in psychiatry has more to do with saving lives than several medical specialists out there. Who has the bigger hand in helping someone... the doctor inflating the look of someone’s breast tissue with saline, or just about any NP out there? You keep doubling down on how the world works as you see it, and blow clear past some very important points to consider, not the least of which is the OPs professional interests. And before one suggests that physicians are purists who take one for the team just to help people, keep in mind how much profit margin has been central to so many physicians. You folks follow your professional interests to plenty of places where you aren’t maximizing the potential impact that you could have had if you weren’t eager for financial gain. And I don’t feel that is a bad thing. But it isn’t bad for anyone else to do that either.

I don’t think it’s good for anyone to set their heart on something as specific as a niche specialty so far out from obtaining it, because it can either cause tunnel vision (where you miss out on other potential interests), or it can simply lead to dissatisfaction when reality doesn’t match the idea in your head. That might be the lesson to be avoided by assuming that becoming an NP or physician is the best way to go about helping people with SL pathologies. It’s like the person who asks the annoying question that all pre med or first year med students hear from well meaning people around them (“what do you want to specialize in?”). Would it be wise to commit to an answer before even seeing what piques one’s interest? Similarly, should you pursue becoming an NP with a singular focus on SLP? I personally think it to be unwise, but it’s a more clear pathway than pursuing a career as a physician with an SLP focus. Keiko, you are taking the OPs obscure goal and suggesting to him or her to take an even bigger leap into uncertainty. That is where the biggest disservice is taking place.
 

SLP-NP

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Id like to chime in here again:
1: Ive thought about medical school and entering the healthcare field in that way in the past. After some self reflection and examination I decided it was not for me. In tandem with the other things I aspire to do outside my career (personal endeavors, etc.) I found it to be unrealistic for me to do in the long run (20+ years from now). Now while I ruled that path out, it did not mean I didn't want to be involved in healthcare, enter avenues like SLP, AuD, and NP.

2: I can be wrong about this, however NP specifically interested me because of the nursing model of teaching that seems to be incorporated into the curriculum. From what Ive gathered from researching schools, programs, etc; PA schools, medical schools, etc. focus on the medical model of teaching. As an individual, I feel I would thrive more so in a nursing model of thought. Again, I could be wrong about those philosophies but from an outsider looking in, this seems to be a big selling point for schools and prospective students from what Ive seen and read.

3: Im not ruling other specialties out when considering ENT. I have interests in primary care, pediatrics, and others, but I love learning about structures of the larynx and associated bits :). My thought process was that Id be able to interact even more-so with these structures and learn more about them by becoming an NP, and treat at a level I couldn't as an SLP.
 
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762513

Id like to chime in here again:
1: Ive thought about medical school and entering the healthcare field in that way in the past. After some self reflection and examination I decided it was not for me. In tandem with the other things I aspire to do outside my career (personal endeavors, etc.) I found it to be unrealistic for me to do in the long run (20+ years from now). Now while I ruled that path out, it did not mean I didn't want to be involved in healthcare, enter avenues like SLP, AuD, and NP.

2: I can be wrong about this, however NP specifically interested me because of the nursing model of teaching that seems to be incorporated into the curriculum. From what Ive gathered from researching schools, programs, etc; PA schools, medical schools, etc. focus on the medical model of teaching. As an individual, I feel I would thrive more so in a nursing model of thought. Again, I could be wrong about those philosophies but from an outsider looking in, this seems to be a big selling point for schools and prospective students from what Ive seen and read.

3: Im not ruling other specialties out when considering ENT. I have interests in primary care, pediatrics, and others, but I love learning about structures of the larynx and associated bits :). My thought process was that Id be able to interact even more-so with these structures and learn more about them by becoming an NP, and treat at a level I couldn't as an SLP.

Sounds like NP would be a good fit for you. Let me or the other NP’s let me know if you need advice. Good luck.
 
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pamac

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When you discover the absolute merits of the nursing model vs the medical model, let me know because after years of immersion in the nursing model, I feel just as perplexed by what nursing educators mean by that when they push it as I did before I became a nurse. I know the basic rundown of it all, of course, but I’m not sure I ever would say that I pursued nursing because of the difference in philosophy. I respect the medical model because they seem to be trying to get from point A to point B for patients as quickly as possible. Does that produce blind spots... maybe. But I think that most times it’s important and reasonable to get from Point A to Point B in the most direct route. I think most NPs actually fall into line to pursue that kind of goal.
 

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I've been an NP for over 20 years and the nursing model means to me a focus on the functional capabilities of the patient. I still rely on functional assessments with patients who have signs/symptoms that do not fit into an identifiable pattern or where the differential is to broad to be meaningful. This type of evaluation can answer basic questions: Is the patient really sick and we need to dx this today or not so sick - we have time to tease through it. In the case of chronic or untreatable illness, a treatment plan that focuses on improving ADLs/IADLs can improve the patient's QOL by quite a bit.

A student who is interested in communication disorders would be a natural fit for a profession that is focused on function and self-care abilities.
 
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Two points here, If you are completing a BS degree in Communication Disorders, you "should" realize being a Certified SLP is a lot more than "just speech". I am soon to retire, and have enjoyed multiple careers, all related to healthcare with a total of 10 years undergrad and graduate education, (because I like learning different things. "Speech problems'" barely touch the edge of what SLP's are actually educated to do. Nursing may be little easier academically, (I say this because I have family member who wanted to be a PA, but couldn't get grades, so switched to Nursing, she excelled and makes a great nurse), but you must have the personality and desire, it is not easy. Going direct NP is a disservice to patients. NP's have half the educational and clinical training as PA's and 4th of physicians. Look it up.. NP is BS degree and approximately 48 grad hours, with required 500 clinical. PA is BS, plus at least 110 graduate hours and at least 2,000 clinical hours. Physician's have BS plus approximately 155 graduate hours and around 3500 clinical plus 3 year residency. I fully support the NP's who have gained the experience of working for many years as a nurse then transitioning. Yes, the Nurse's have pushed for more independence that PA's do not have, and I know many NP's who are totally against these direct entry online programs popping up that do not prepare students to actually be a provider. Again, great NP's put in time as RN before considering NP. Sadly, due to providers who want easiest route rather than one that actually prepares you, I will do my best to request physician or PA, that is unless PA's start decreasing their expectations as NP has done. ***Unless I am confident my NP actually spent the time in critical or area of care prior to transitioning. Wanting the easiest route suggests to me that you are not interested in your patients health. At least PA's continue to say working as a team is best for patient care.
 

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Unless you have some nursing education interspersed within your ten years of graduate and undergraduate education, you can only guess at what kind of preparation a direct entry NP would have. It’s like me guessing at what SLPs do all day.

Direct entry NP programs actually have a pretty good track record of producing good providers. The providers that concern me are the ones who have a cruddy approach to patient care. They do exist. I know several NP students who were nurses with me that are jumping on the NP bandwagon because they don’t want to work bedside, and want more money. I also wanted more money, and to get away from the bedside as well, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that desire. However, the folks I’m thinking of that will be poor NPs are the same folks who would be poor workers in any industry that they would find themselves. They are bandwagoners. You saw the same folks jumping into nursing when the economy was bad because they knew that nurses work 3 days a week, and get as much overtime as they want. The same folks want to be firefighters because they know they work 48 hours on and 72 off, and think that’s a dream job to work out all day and get paid to eat and sleep. I know quite a few folks who were eager to jump on the PA bandwagon as well because some of the prerequisites aren’t that much more work to obtain, and the school is just two years (and just one year of class time). For a long time, I saw plenty of folks with non science degees take PA prerequisites for electives and had PA programs fawning over them because of their “unique backgrounds”. But you don’t see the same people jumping on the computer science bandwagon, the STEM bandwagon, the law enforcement bandwagon, or the air traffic controller bandwagon.... because they don’t really want to work hard. I can’t tell you how many people in 2009 were telling me that I was so lucky to be a nurse, have 3 day work weeks, good healthcare, ability to work day or night, and have a job anywhere. That’s true, but my 12 hours of nonstop work was bruising. And then to do that 2 more days. It gets old wearing scrubs and a stethoscope. So those kinds of folks that found themselves in nursing realized quickly that they didn’t want to stay in nursing, so NP beckoned them.
 
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762513

Two points here, If you are completing a BS degree in Communication Disorders, you "should" realize being a Certified SLP is a lot more than "just speech". I am soon to retire, and have enjoyed multiple careers, all related to healthcare with a total of 10 years undergrad and graduate education, (because I like learning different things. "Speech problems'" barely touch the edge of what SLP's are actually educated to do. Nursing may be little easier academically, (I say this because I have family member who wanted to be a PA, but couldn't get grades, so switched to Nursing, she excelled and makes a great nurse), but you must have the personality and desire, it is not easy. Going direct NP is a disservice to patients. NP's have half the educational and clinical training as PA's and 4th of physicians. Look it up.. NP is BS degree and approximately 48 grad hours, with required 500 clinical. PA is BS, plus at least 110 graduate hours and at least 2,000 clinical hours. Physician's have BS plus approximately 155 graduate hours and around 3500 clinical plus 3 year residency. I fully support the NP's who have gained the experience of working for many years as a nurse then transitioning. Yes, the Nurse's have pushed for more independence that PA's do not have, and I know many NP's who are totally against these direct entry online programs popping up that do not prepare students to actually be a provider. Again, great NP's put in time as RN before considering NP. Sadly, due to providers who want easiest route rather than one that actually prepares you, I will do my best to request physician or PA, that is unless PA's start decreasing their expectations as NP has done. ***Unless I am confident my NP actually spent the time in critical or area of care prior to transitioning. Wanting the easiest route suggests to me that you are not interested in your patients health. At least PA's continue to say working as a team is best for patient care.

Please provide your resource that proves an NP has half the education of a PA. They both have masters degrees. Many NP’s have DNP’s. That might imply NP’s have more education than PA’s, not less. We can debate the value of that education and what it’s uses are in a different thread, but the accuracy of your statement is suspect here.

This program, for example, awards 80 credits. Two-Year Curriculum Outline
Credit hours is really just a way for schools to charge money. My prelims during my DNP took more time than any course in that 12 credit hour semester, and it had no credit value to it, as in the 50 page defense document and sitting defense just had to be done as a part of the program. My actual dissertation semester was worth 4 credits, yet the hours added up to above 500 of research, writing, rewriting, rerewriting, rerererewriting, consulting statisticians, and methodology to produce a 100 page document.
 
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In addition to info below about University of Miami, consider a top rated University, Emory in Georgia; their full-time NP program is 16 months, 46-48 credit hours, while full-time PA program 28 months 120 credit hours. Emory NP does require 620 vs basic requirement of 500 clinical. The PA program states you MUST have prior medical experience... I have done research on both, because I have family members in both. The soon to be NP, spent several years as critical and cardiac care RN because, as a nurse she said she observed the difference in knowledge level of new PA vs. NP when NP's did not have significant RN experience.

I stand somewhat corrected, yet still the average PA programs are 110 hours. You must have searched for program with least requirements, I missed that one, but still my statement is true....half the required hours.

Compare this Florida University of Miami, if my math serves me correct 35-37 is still less than half of 80. DNP programs are, on average equal to the least PA Master requirements of 80. Again, you can look at a TOP program Emory University, their Post Master Doctorate is 38 hours that is addition to 50 for Master, lets see 50+38=88. Little more than 80, but again I said average. But then Emory's PA program requires more than average 110.

I copied and pasted this.....Most NP lecture courses at the University of Miami are taught at the M. Christine Schwartz Center for Nursing and Health Studies in Coral Gables, but some are offered at the downtown Miami medical campus. The master's degree program has options for adult-gerontology acute care NP, adult-gerontology primary care NP and family NP. The adult-gerontology specialties call for three semesters of full-time study or five semesters part-time, while the family NP program calls for three semesters of study full-time and six part-time. Students must have a bachelor's degree and an RN license. The family NP specialty can be taken as a one- or two-year program; it requires 37 course credits and 616 clinical hours. The adult-gerontology acute care NP specialty calls for 38 course credits, while the primary care NP specialty requires 35 course credits. Both adult-gerontology specialties require 644 clinical hours.

I very much respect the NP's that actually work to gain the degree as it was initially intended and not the ones who go direct entry or to online with nearly 100% acceptance rate. Will be the first to say there are crappy PA's, MD, DO, SLP...;. but can you dispute my research? Good luck. There may be outliers in programs for all, however, I said average from the get go.
 

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You are right, unless you directly worked in an environment with close connection and collaboration will various types of providers, you, nor I would know. However, I have worked in hospitals, nursing home and ENT group with stroke, traumatic brain injury, syndrome related abnormalities... where we collaborate and get to know providers. Plus, I have very close family members entering both fields within the past 10 years. We actually talk a lot, in addition to PA and nurse, we have Audiologist, Dentist, Surg Tech, Rad Tech, MD, and Dietitian, guess I shouldn't forget about the Counselor.
 
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762513

In addition to info below about University of Miami, consider a top rated University, Emory in Georgia; their full-time NP program is 16 months, 46-48 credit hours, while full-time PA program 28 months 120 credit hours. Emory NP does require 620 vs basic requirement of 500 clinical. The PA program states you MUST have prior medical experience... I have done research on both, because I have family members in both. The soon to be NP, spent several years as critical and cardiac care RN because, as a nurse she said she observed the difference in knowledge level of new PA vs. NP when NP's did not have significant RN experience.

I stand somewhat corrected, yet still the average PA programs are 110 hours. You must have searched for program with least requirements, I missed that one, but still my statement is true....half the required hours.

Compare this Florida University of Miami, if my math serves me correct 35-37 is still less than half of 80. DNP programs are, on average equal to the least PA Master requirements of 80. Again, you can look at a TOP program Emory University, their Post Master Doctorate is 38 hours that is addition to 50 for Master, lets see 50+38=88. Little more than 80, but again I said average. But then Emory's PA program requires more than average 110.

I copied and pasted this.....Most NP lecture courses at the University of Miami are taught at the M. Christine Schwartz Center for Nursing and Health Studies in Coral Gables, but some are offered at the downtown Miami medical campus. The master's degree program has options for adult-gerontology acute care NP, adult-gerontology primary care NP and family NP. The adult-gerontology specialties call for three semesters of full-time study or five semesters part-time, while the family NP program calls for three semesters of study full-time and six part-time. Students must have a bachelor's degree and an RN license. The family NP specialty can be taken as a one- or two-year program; it requires 37 course credits and 616 clinical hours. The adult-gerontology acute care NP specialty calls for 38 course credits, while the primary care NP specialty requires 35 course credits. Both adult-gerontology specialties require 644 clinical hours.

I very much respect the NP's that actually work to gain the degree as it was initially intended and not the ones who go direct entry or to online with nearly 100% acceptance rate. Will be the first to say there are crappy PA's, MD, DO, SLP...;. but can you dispute my research? Good luck. There may be outliers in programs for all, however, I said average from the get go.

I agree with your point that direct entry NP’s can be a challenge to the profession. Thankfully with how well saturated the NP profession is at the moment, the market will sort those people out, and they likely will be an unemployed/underemployed APRN. I honestly just google searched PA program course plans and this 80 credit hour program was one of the top results. I didn’t have to dig far. You didn’t respond to my point that over 500 hours went into a 4 credit course that I personally took. There are a lot of hours buried in NP programs. Credit hours are more a way for colleges to charge tuition than to signify rigour or time requirements.
 

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Everyone that wants to put down Np programs reverts to the credit hours as evidence of PA school superiority. I think that it’s mostly evidence that PA programs assign a lot of credits to different modules that they package as courses. But arguing with someone who is neither a PA, nor an NP, nor even a prescribing provider doesn’t add much to the conversation.
 
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Splenda88

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One is being tougher than the other is relative IMO. I have a friend who is getting a psych NP degree online and all he does is writing papers. I would have failed if med school was like that since I had no interest in writing papers every week... Heck, it's easier for me to learn 100 biochemical pathways in a week than writing a 5-page paper.
 

pamac

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I feel like NP school could do a bit more memorizing biochemical pathways and less papers, but part of me does wonder how much retention takes place when you cram vast amounts of information like I used to in my biology undergrad, which is likely to have been less of a drink from a firehose than PA school.
 

Splenda88

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I feel like NP school could do a bit more memorizing biochemical pathways and less papers, but part of me does wonder how much retention takes place when you cram vast amounts of information like I used to in my biology undergrad, which is likely to have been less of a drink from a firehose than PA school.
I felt that way when I was in med school, and I agree that the best residents/students probably retain <30% of what they learned in MS1... However, I can tell you some of these complex things sometimes help you with the big picture.
 
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pamac

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^as is the case with my biology degree and NP training. I feel like it’s helped me out quite a bit over the years. RN school I barely had to study some semesters.
 
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