Every field thinks they are in trouble

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I would try to do it on elective time over the year.

Above are just general, broad thoughts. I've talked to 5 or 6 groups informally and they have all told me that I do NOT need a fellowship for them. LOL. They say it won't change my day to day activities, my pay, my call, etc. So then I wonder what would be the point of losing income and prolonging everything for 1 year.

I'm trying to think ahead vs short-term....but maybe I should just get a job.

CJ

CJ, thanks again for your reply and all the help you'd provided me.

That is interesting to hear about groups not requiring a fellowship. There are some seniors at my program who also are forgoing fellowship while pursuing a sweet PP gig.

Members don't see this ad.
 
All fields are feeling the crunch - my buds who are in cardiology complain about medicare reimbursing jack for caths, ER buddies are feeling pressure from NP's/PA's who are 'specialized' in EM, FM/IM vs every NP with their 'doctorate.' Anesthesia is not alone, if anything we're better off b/c we've been dealing with CRNA's for years and the up and coming Anesthesia residents are excited about our field.

when I was in pharmacy school they told us that pharmD's wouldn't have a job in 10 years and that we'd be replaced by pharmacy technicians and automation - hasn't happened/isn't even close!

Did a 12 year old ortho case yesterday and around my place the CRNA's/SRNA's like to refer to themselves when they introduce themselves to the patient as 'their anesthesia provider.' I always followup that statement with, "hi I'm DR Crazy Jake and I'll be overseeing nurse X that you just met." Well yesterday the 1st thing out of both parents mouth was, 'Jake you'll be doing our sons case right?' Response - Yes sir/maam I will. Patients are always going to want/need us...especially with our medico-legal system.

CJ


Dude that was cold. I think anesthesia will be okay, the new residents and attendings seem ready for battle. Finally!
 
Is TEE certification something that you're going to have to pursue in an extracurricular fashion during a CCM fellowship? I am also interested in CCM after having a blast on my MS4 SICU rotation, but I'd like to know that I'd have the ability to do as much or as little (within reason) CCM if I went down that path.


Clinical Features:
~ 18 weeks in the Trauma/Surgical ICU at Duke University
Hospital; one day per week in OR performing anesthetic
management and TEE
~ 4 weeks in the Cardiothoracic ICU at Duke University
Hospital
~ 18 weeks in the Durham VA SICU, including postoperative
management of cardiothoracic surgical patients; daily TEE
exams; weekly TEE teaching conference
~ 6 weeks dedicated TEE training
~ 7-8 weeks additional elective time
~ Total echocardiographic experience that will significantly
exceed current National Board of Echocardiography
recommendations for qualification
~ Weekly Critical Care conferences, case presentations, and
lectures covering the Critical Care core curriculum

http://anesthesiology.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/CCMFellowship2-2010.pdf
 
Members don't see this ad :)
CJ, thanks again for your reply and all the help you'd provided me.

That is interesting to hear about groups not requiring a fellowship. There are some seniors at my program who also are forgoing fellowship while pursuing a sweet PP gig.

From what I have seen over the past 4.5 years while on SDN those graduates who did a fellowship (overall) got better jobs or higher paying ones compared to their peer group who did not do one. Top tier groups are more likely to hire top tier graduates with unique skill sets who can contribute to the company immediately.
 
I did a cardiac fellowship and I would do it again if I had the chance. Why? I get paid more than my general colleagues, I do my 95% of my own cases leading to minimal supervision headaches, and best of all, I work less. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

To those out there vying for a sweet PP gig, make sure you have the credentials and the job/money will come. By credentials. I mean board certification and fellowship training with the appropriate certificate in your area of expertise.
 
I just read the entire thread as a newcomer. I kept seeing people say this field isn't that competitive - I thought this was very much so? Has the CRNA issue scared a lot of the top med students from the field? I've been looking into anesthesia in case I get into med school, and from all I've heard is this field is particularly competitive due to the salary and lifestyle it affords.

:confused:
 
I just read the entire thread as a newcomer. I kept seeing people say this field isn't that competitive - I thought this was very much so? Has the CRNA issue scared a lot of the top med students from the field? I've been looking into anesthesia in case I get into med school, and from all I've heard is this field is particularly competitive due to the salary and lifestyle it affords.

:confused:

At your stage of the game, just worry about getting into med school. You are so far away from the mess being described in this thread it isn't worth your time thinking about.

And no, so far anesthesia remains a popular choice amongst med students. However as this thread details, the game is changing and you have to up your qualifications. It seems like no one is going to fall ass-backward into a sweet gig.
 
From what I have seen over the past 4.5 years while on SDN those graduates who did a fellowship (overall) got better jobs or higher paying ones compared to their peer group who did not do one. Top tier groups are more likely to hire top tier graduates with unique skill sets who can contribute to the company immediately.


SO four years of residency is not unique skills enough? you have to spend an extra year for a total of five years for unique skills? puuuuhhllllleezz.

If we have to do a year of fellowship to be considered UNIque from the CRNAs. there is really something wrong with our training programs. Am i the only one who sees this?
 
SO four years of residency is not unique skills enough? you have to spend an extra year for a total of five years for unique skills? puuuuhhllllleezz.

If we have to do a year of fellowship to be considered UNIque from the CRNAs. there is really something wrong with our training programs. Am i the only one who sees this?

You don't HAVE to do the extra year. I strongly recommend it for career enhancement, job placement and long term job security. The choice is yours.
 
What about Emergency Physicians getting Critical Care training? Is this similar to Anesthesia?
 
What about Emergency Physicians getting Critical Care training? Is this similar to Anesthesia?


Critical Care Committee
Representing EMRA Residents on Emergency Care
ABEM statement: We are pleased to announce that we have achieved an agreement with the American Board of Internal Medicine to become a co-sponsor in IM Critical Care Medicine. This means that our residents will have access to training in two-year critical care Internal Medicine sponsored fellowship programs upon completion of their Emergency Medicine residencies. Following successful completion of the fellowship, they will be able to become certified in Internal Medicine Critical Care Medicine. At this time, the only route to Critical Care Medicine certification for Emergency Medicine physicians is through Internal Medicine based fellowships. Both the American Board of Anesthesiology and the American Board of Surgery have indicated that they are not interested in pursuing a similar agreement. We continue to hope that in the future this may change and will continue to work with both boards as opportunities arise.
Current Critical Care Board Certification Opportunities

  • 2 year Internal Medicine Critical Care Fellowship: IM/CCM boards
    EM/IM/CCM: IM/CCM boards
    European Society of Intensive Care Medicine (ESICM) boards
 
Anesthesiology route only requires 12 months to sit for the Critical Care Boards vs. 24 months for those that opt to go via Emergency Medicine.

Also, E.R. Docs practice ER while Anesthesiologists function as attendings in Operating Room.
 
Subspecialty training in anesthesiology critical care medicine shall consist of 12
months of full-time training, beginning after satisfactory completion of a core
anesthesiology residency program. At least nine of the 12 months of training in
anesthesiology critical care medicine must be spent in the care of critically-ill
patients in intensive care units (ICUs). The remainder may be in clinical activities
or research relevant to critical care.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Correct me if I am wrong, but a CRNA practicing in an "opt-out" state or some rural area w/o supervision of an anesthesiologist actually bills for the same amount as an anesthesiologist does for the same services.

In a "care team" approach, the group bills for whatever that amount would be and then splits it how they see fit.

Anyway, my point is that CRNAs do not actually provide any cost savings to the healthcare system if they are independently practicing. In the care team approach, the cost savings (to the group) only comes in the form of supervising as many crna rooms per physician as possible.

Interesting article in the times about mid-levels becoming "drs." They claim that even without the phd they are sufficiently competent to practice, and that they are not becoming "drs" to bill for more. Anyway, seems like crna's get to bill for the full amount anyway regardless of whether or not they get a 1 yr phd that adds little educational value to their training.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?_r=4&scp=2&sq=gardiner harris &st=cse
 
There was an article in the ASA newsletter I think a while back detailing the cost difference between physicians and nurses. When adjusted for hours worked there really wasn't that much of a difference.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a CRNA practicing in an "opt-out" state or some rural area w/o supervision of an anesthesiologist actually bills for the same amount as an anesthesiologist does for the same services.

In a "care team" approach, the group bills for whatever that amount would be and then splits it how they see fit.

Anyway, my point is that CRNAs do not actually provide any cost savings to the healthcare system if they are independently practicing. In the care team approach, the cost savings (to the group) only comes in the form of supervising as many crna rooms per physician as possible.

Interesting article in the times about mid-levels becoming "drs." They claim that even without the phd they are sufficiently competent to practice, and that they are not becoming "drs" to bill for more. Anyway, seems like crna's get to bill for the full amount anyway regardless of whether or not they get a 1 yr phd that adds little educational value to their training.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?_r=4&scp=2&sq=gardiner harris &st=cse
 
Anesthesiology route only requires 12 months to sit for the Critical Care Boards vs. 24 months for those that opt to go via Emergency Medicine.

Also, E.R. Docs practice ER while Anesthesiologists function as attendings in Operating Room.

Do you think this would be a good idea for an ER doc to do? It would be a 3 + 2, so 5 years. Just trying to hedge the burnout thing possibly.
 
Anesthesiology route only requires 12 months to sit for the Critical Care Boards vs. 24 months for those that opt to go via Emergency Medicine.

Also, E.R. Docs practice ER while Anesthesiologists function as attendings in Operating Room.

i would potentially do two years and train in emergency medicine for two years if the situation got a litte worse in our field.. where is this possible blade?
 
i would potentially do two years and train in emergency medicine for two years if the situation got a litte worse in our field.. where is this possible blade?

It is done through the Internal Medicine board, so I'm pretty sure you can do this almost anywhere. Obviously check with each program, but if you aren't a resident yet then a lot can change by then.
 
i would potentially do two years and train in emergency medicine for two years if the situation got a litte worse in our field.. where is this possible blade?

Burn out in E.R. is far greater than Anesthesiology. 4 years of Gas followed by 1 year of CCM. A great start to a long, lucrative and rewarding career.
 
Burn out in E.R. is far greater than Anesthesiology. 4 years of Gas followed by 1 year of CCM. A great start to a long, lucrative and rewarding career.


er you can work as many or as little shifts as you want. thats nice. and i feel its more flexible
 
One of my uncles runs a high end group in Chicago. I talked to him at a wedding last week and he said they havent hired a graduate in years w/o a fellowship (my cousin that just took a job with them did Peds at UMICH). It might not change your day to day, but when you have your pick of applicants, why not take the guy with extra training who will also be board certified when he starts.
He told me they rate cardac>peds/CCM/Pain>Ob>regional
Although an OB fellowship seems kinda useless to me, he said they like to have at least one fellowship trained on staff and as do most hospitals. Anyone hear that?
 
One of my uncles runs a high end group in Chicago. I talked to him at a wedding last week and he said they havent hired a graduate in years w/o a fellowship (my cousin that just took a job with them did Peds at UMICH). It might not change your day to day, but when you have your pick of applicants, why not take the guy with extra training who will also be board certified when he starts.
He told me they rate cardac>peds/CCM/Pain>Ob>regional
Although an OB fellowship seems kinda useless to me, he said they like to have at least one fellowship trained on staff and as do most hospitals. Anyone hear that?

Remember, CCM offers you the opportunity to get Certified in TEE. Many could pass the basic exam. This means you can market yourself as both CCM and Cardiac as it pertains to most private practices.

For marketing purposes it never hurts to have formal fellowship trained attendings in all areas. This allows advertising to the local community that Anesthesia has the "highest" caliber Board Certified Anesthesiologists on staff.
OB is more of a marketing tactic but one that larger groups may still want to use.
 
Remember, CCM offers you the opportunity to get Certified in TEE. Many could pass the basic exam. This means you can market yourself as both CCM and Cardiac as it pertains to most private practices.

For marketing purposes it never hurts to have formal fellowship trained attendings in all areas. This allows advertising to the local community that Anesthesia has the "highest" caliber Board Certified Anesthesiologists on staff.
OB is more of a marketing tactic but one that larger groups may still want to use.

Do all CCM fellowships allow you to be TEE certified? Or, is it only some (i.e. the Duke fellowship you mentioned).

The argument in favor of doing a CCM fellowship is catching my attention.
 
You can probably add urology to the fields that think they're in trouble.

Key panel will urge men to skip prostate screening, reports say

I wonder how this will affect the interest in the field. Fewer screenings = fewer prostate surgeries.

Yep. That is pretty big blow.... I haven't read the studies, but what I heard on the news today is that screening psa's save 7/10000 patients but cause morbidity (sometimes significant) in 5/1000. This doesn't take into account erectile dysfunction from prostate surgery itself.... up to 80% with nerve non-sparing and 30% with nerve sparing.
 
Session Detail




Session Number: PN107 Session Title: Health Policy and Advocacy Training: A New Mission for the Academic Medical Center in Graduate Medical Education? Session Track: Professional Issues (PI) Session Description: This panel will examine the current status of health policy awareness and advocacy education during anesthesiology residency training, and debate the barriers and benefits to making this a formal addition to our resident's educational curriculum. Session Start/End Time:M Monday, Oct 17, 2011, 9:10 A-11:10 AM Location: S504d Session Learning Objective 1: compare and contrast the exposure to health policy and professional advocacy in anesthesiology residency versus mid-level provider training programs, and recognize how early exposure to these topics may differentiate provider groups, and predict long-term professional advocacy activities in organized medicine Session Learning Objective 2: identify barriers as well as opportunities, to providing health policy and advocacy training during anesthesiology residency training Session Learning Objective 3: recognize ongoing and future threats that the medical specialty of anesthesiology faces in the legislative and regulatory arena, and why advocacy training should ideally occur during the residency period Session Learning Objective 4: evaluate the benefits and risks of health policy and advocacy training from a variety of perspectives, including the resident, program director and academic chair level. Session Keyword 1: Education Session Keyword 2: Ethics/Professionalism Presentations:
Moderator-Do Component Societies Have any Role to Play in Residency Advocacy and Health Policy Training?
H. David Hardman.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC, USA.


Speaker-My Journey from CRNA to Professor and Chair of Anesthesiology: Reflections on the Role of Advocacy and Health Policy Training in Anesthesiology
Jane C.K. Fitch.
University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma City, OK, USA.
 
Original poster, be careful. Try to speak to some of the guys who experienced the first glut. It could take 10-12 years to dig out of it. The CRNAs do have a point, but they might get burned too. Yes, anesthesiology and other specialties have serious threats, but there are many specialties that are quite safe. When the glut comes, you will be wishing that you had gone into psychiatry. Seeing 4 patients a day making 100K and sleeping in your own bed every night. That will seem really nice comepared to 95K and overnight call 6 times a month sleeping on a cot, no day off after, losing your temper with wife and kids....
 
Original poster, be careful. Try to speak to some of the guys who experienced the first glut. It could take 10-12 years to dig out of it. The CRNAs do have a point, but they might get burned too. Yes, anesthesiology and other specialties have serious threats, but there are many specialties that are quite safe. When the glut comes, you will be wishing that you had gone into psychiatry. Seeing 4 patients a day making 100K and sleeping in your own bed every night. That will seem really nice comepared to 95K and overnight call 6 times a month sleeping on a cot, no day off after, losing your temper with wife and kids....

The first glut was miserable as you stated and took about 6 years to dig out from. The reason that it took only that long is that med students started staying away from anesthesia in droves. The training programs needed bodies because of all the work that wasn't getting done. I still remember a phone call in 97 or 98 right after the match from a headhunter. One of the big training programs put in an order for 20 anesthesiologists OR CRNAs. I knew that blue skies were ahead then.

From what I am hearing about increasing numbers of med students but not a corresponding increase in residency slots across all specialties, A future glut may not autocorrect as quickly. Throw in mass production of CRNAs on a scale not seen before and there are some dark clouds ahead.
 
The first glut was miserable as you stated and took about 6 years to dig out from. The reason that it took only that long is that med students started staying away from anesthesia in droves. The training programs needed bodies because of all the work that wasn't getting done. I still remember a phone call in 97 or 98 right after the match from a headhunter. One of the big training programs put in an order for 20 anesthesiologists OR CRNAs. I knew that blue skies were ahead then.

From what I am hearing about increasing numbers of med students but not a corresponding increase in residency slots across all specialties, A future glut may not autocorrect as quickly. Throw in mass production of CRNAs on a scale not seen before and there are some dark clouds ahead.


ITA. Think think think before you commit to this specialty. Few people will tell you in person what things are like. It stinks when you are struggling to find work after all the investments that you have made. Also, don't forget that being an anesthesiologist is like being treated like a resident for the rets of your life. Evaluations, being spoken down to, no freedom, few choices. Think about it. That all gets worse with a glut.
 
I really hate to admit this but Owie is right. Anesthesiology as a specialty is heading for dark days......It is absolutely fun to take care of a patient, especially a sick/challenging one under anesthesia. Is it worth all the ancillary BS that comes with it? More and more, for me, no. And what is the ASA's answer.....MOCA (how about that for a kick in the b...ls)

I would NOT choose this specialty again if I were a med student, knowing what I know now.

I do love CCM, which gets me out of the OR. I am planning on making the move to sole CCM shortly.
 
Last edited:
I'm curious, if you wouldn't choose Gas what would you go into?

Not the pp, but I would look at Cardiology (option to do procedures), Neuro/psych (more flexibility in terms of ways to make money, good lifestyle), Rad Onc (if you can get in), CCM, PM&R (pain), ER (hours stink), Rheumatology. In that order, to name a few.

What is fun as a resident takes on a different taste when you are an attending.
 
I really hate to admit this but Owie is right. Anesthesiology as a specialty is heading for dark days......It is absolutely fun to take care of a patient, especially a sick/challenging one under anesthesia. Is it worth all the ancillary BS that comes with it? More and more, for me, no. And what is the ASA's answer.....MOCA (how about that for a kick in the b...ls)

I would NOT choose this specialty again if I were a med student, knowing what I know now.

I do love CCM, which gets me out of the OR. I am planning on making the move to sole CCM shortly.

I love my job in the OR. It's great. It's fun and I see fascinating physiology on a daily basis. The constantly worsening beaurocratic mess is a headache to deal with, but that's still not the major part of my day.

I'm a regular joe, board certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship.

But I love working in the OR and I get plenty of free time and plenty of money to make it worth it. Will it change in the future? To some extent yes, but I'm just saving lots of cash while I can. I could always go back and do a fellowship later when the jobs are less lucrative.
 
Original poster, be careful. Try to speak to some of the guys who experienced the first glut. It could take 10-12 years to dig out of it. The CRNAs do have a point, but they might get burned too. Yes, anesthesiology and other specialties have serious threats, but there are many specialties that are quite safe. When the glut comes, you will be wishing that you had gone into psychiatry. Seeing 4 patients a day making 100K and sleeping in your own bed every night. That will seem really nice comepared to 95K and overnight call 6 times a month sleeping on a cot, no day off after, losing your temper with wife and kids....

Do you really think psychiatrists see four patients a day and make 100k? This feels like maceo/hivoltage/anynoise making yet another appearance
 
I love my job in the OR. It's great. It's fun and I see fascinating physiology on a daily basis. The constantly worsening beaurocratic mess is a headache to deal with, but that's still not the major part of my day.

I'm a regular joe, board certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship.

But I love working in the OR and I get plenty of free time and plenty of money to make it worth it. Will it change in the future? To some extent yes, but I'm just saving lots of cash while I can. I could always go back and do a fellowship later when the jobs are less lucrative.

+1

:thumbup:.
 
I'd like to thank the OP for starting this thread, it's nice to hear something positive about the specialty I've chosen. Although I can't think of any other specialty in medicine I'd rather be a part of, I do at times find myself pondering/worrying on the negative aspects of the field. I'm excited to get back in the OR's next year.

Do you really think psychiatrists see four patients a day and make 100k? This feels like maceo/hivoltage/anynoise making yet another appearance

According to my attendings psych has it's own issues with reimbursement as well. They do pretty well and have a decent lifestyle right now, but they too believe the sky is falling. I like the analogy of the Titanic someone mentioned, really puts things into perspective.
 
As I previously mentioned, most fields have nurse practictioners. Even dentists in my state had EDFCA's or whatever they are called that act as midlevel providers.

While Blade made the point that people still prefer a physician (I agree to SOME extent), I believe most people will still be okay with a non-physician provider as demonstrated by the reasonable profitability of the "Minute Clinics" outside of CVS.

Even Michael Jackson, was seeing them (see below).

Many of these posts are missing the larger points that I have brought up:

It's the fundamental underlying MODEL that is the issue with anesthesiology / much of medicine.

Unless there is some ability to respond to market forces (ie cosmetic surgery, high end dentistry) to give consumers a product they want then we are not going to do well.

In 10 years, a dental specialist may make more than most physician specialists, they are not on a fixed income (ie medicare rates) model in the setting of big time inflation, can adapt to the market etc, are less regulated by government, and offer stuff people want. Below is a real post from a newly solo private practice opthamologist illustrating this.

My conclusions:

Private practice medicine based on medicare / insurance model is dying...

We will likely all work for a big hospital as part of the ACO. At that point, who knows what salaries will be, but at 96K a year, many of us would have better options and the field would cease to exist...




http://iballdoc.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=50
Math


"Beetles brought up the 30% SGR Medicare cut looming at the end of the year. I'm hoping that it will get "delayed" once again so that we end up facing a 50% cut in 2 years. However, if the cut does become permanent, there will definitely be some changes to the medical community.


So I've come to thinking about it and attempted a little math, and it looks like the large high overhead practices will be the first ones to take a hit. By the way, please correct any flaws in my math or logic.


Example 1


Let's say you have a small solo practice where your overhead is 45% and you see 20 patients a day. which I think is realistically possible. Using Ophthalmology Management's figure of $125 per patient after all is said and done, and assuming you work 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, your current annual revenue would be $625K, overhead $281K, and take home pay $344K. An awesome deal.


Now, with the 30% SGR cut, your annual revenue would be $438K, overhead still $281K, and take home pay $157K. Not horrible, but much much less than the status quo.




Example 2


Now let's try this with a high overhead ophthalmic empire. Let's say you see 45 patients a day with 65% overhead (mostly attributing to more employees and larger office space rent). Using the same criteria, you would currently pull in $1.41 million a year, spend $914K in overhead, and take home $492K, which is nearly $150K more than example 1.


Enter the 30% SGR cut. Then you would bring in $984K, still spend $914K, and take home $70,000! In order to make the same post-cut $157K, the overhead will have to be between 58 and 59%, which I guess is possible.




The point I'm trying to make is that lower overhead will be key regardless of how big your operation is. And lower overhead will be even more important if the SGR cut goes through. I would imagine that the larger the practice you have, the larger the overhead will be. With the cuts in place, higher overhead practices will need to start cutting staff, including associate ophthalmologists. The job market for entry level ophthalmologists will probably be even more dismal. I wouldn't be surprised if some practices completely implode. That's why a lot of people are freaking out."




http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/30/transcript-of-cherilyn-lee-interview/

"Campbell: so just to give a sense of your relationship with him, how long had you known him, what was the relationship?
Cherilyn Lee: well I met him in January. And because someone called me and said his children had a runny nose and a little cough and could I come out to the house and see them. And because it was a referral person he felt very comfortable. And so when I arrived at the house I saw three children. And actually I love working with children and I kind of set something up for them some vitamin c and, you know, as a practitioner I listened to their lungs to make sure they were clear and went ahead and did the routine physical exam and everything. And after I finished with the children and had given them some vitamin c that they had, you know, the vitamin c powder and a couple of other things, it's a homeopathic; they told their dad they were feeling a lot better. So he looked at me and said what else do you do? And so I said well I help people, you know, when they want to very more energy. And he said, oh, well, okay, that's really good. And so we start taking it from there and I try to find out why is it you don't have any energy? And just went through the whole course of, you know, not that day. He asked me if I could come back the following day. So I went and drew some blood, maybe you're anemic or maybe it's this or that, but let's not second guess anything. I did full lab work. A full work-up on him. Then I told him from there that nutritionally we could get you set up.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/30/transcript-of-cherilyn-lee-interview/"

I'd like to thank the OP for starting this thread, it's nice to hear something positive about the specialty I've chosen. Although I can't think of any other specialty in medicine I'd rather be a part of, I do at times find myself pondering/worrying on the negative aspects of the field. I'm excited to get back in the OR's next year.



According to my attendings psych has it's own issues with reimbursement as well. They do pretty well and have a decent lifestyle right now, but they too believe the sky is falling. I like the analogy of the Titanic someone mentioned, really puts things into perspective.
 
The more you can avoid insurance payments, the better off you will be. Now I know that a bad economy is bad for cometic surgeons. However, take psych. many families use cash to pay. So in any large metro area, you can do well (per hour), especially if you have a niche (eg foreign language). You will not have a practice brimming with patients, but you can do well considering the work load. Especially the guys that diagnose the kids with ADD and so on. This is not possible in lower income areas.
Look very closely at hours worked, rather than total income.
 
The more you can avoid insurance payments, the better off you will be. Now I know that a bad economy is bad for cometic surgeons. However, take psych. many families use cash to pay. So in any large metro area, you can do well (per hour), especially if you have a niche (eg foreign language). You will not have a practice brimming with patients, but you can do well considering the work load. Especially the guys that diagnose the kids with ADD and so on. This is not possible in lower income areas.
Look very closely at hours worked, rather than total income.

So basically surgery is out.
 
I'm an M4 applying in anesthesiology, despite many CRNAs having come up to me, unsolicited, during my surgical clerkships and telling me I was entering a dying field. Crass, no? Kinda ruined my day.

However, the plight of the doctor vs. the wannabe-without-the-requisite-training is not unique to our field.

Every forum I go to on here, and I mean every one, has threads about how this field or that is "dying". My response to this: oh, please.

Even the traditionally high paying fields are lamenting the "end times".

Examples:
1) Ophthalmologists are terrified of Optometrists gaining the right to do surgery, as they have in one or two states. There are just as many rude, optometry students on the Ophtho forums are there are CRNA students here. They also say every major market is ultra-saturated.
2) Radiologists say there are no jobs anymore. It's impossible to find anything if you're not interventional, because all of their images are being outsourced to other countries.
3) Pathologists are terrified of government regulation of hospitals, the desire to only have a few pathologists, longer hours, and salaries, vs. fee for service. They also say that with the advent of telepathology, their careers are in as much jeopardy as the Radiologists.
4) All the primary care fields, and even some that are not primary care, such as ortho, are terrified that nurse practitioners are going to steal all of their clinical patients and relegate them to supervisory or purely surgical roles.
5) Radiation Oncology (RAD-ONC!) complains that they are going to be discovered by the government, cutting their reimbursements, and it is only a matter of time before nurses decide that if they can SET UP stereotactic XRT, that hey, maybe they should be allowed to do it by themselves.
6) Plastic surgery laments that it is impossible to get started in a practice, as no one is hiring, you have to be "known", and all the good cases are taken by senior partners. Besides, its only a matter of time before any "general" surgeon thinks they can do plastics. Or any nurse practitioner "thinks" they can do botox.

I could go on and on and on and on. The fact of the matter is this. There will be a DOCTOR shortage in this country. A very large one, and it will last for a generation. There is no substitute for a doctor in any field. Period.

From every corner of this country there is a backlash against Obamacare, and government regulation of healthcare in general, that is so strong that it may even be irreversible. When the dust settles, especially in an age of ever increasing availability of information, people are going to want choice. And when they choose, they will always choose a doctor over a nurse.

The pompous statements of the CRNAs, the optometrists, the nurse practitioners, its all wishful thinking. Because of our nation's budgetary situation, in 10 years, we will have a health system that has far less government involvement, including drastic changes to medicare and medicaid. Physician salaries will go up, not down. Our healthcare system will be less diffusely negatively egalitarian and will be stratified. And it will be the wannabe physicians, overproduced and underqualified, who will be left picking up the slack undesired.

So stop panicking medical doctors. The night is darkest right before the dawn. This is the nadir, a key turning point in history. And if you're in residency and about to leave, or in school and about to enter residency, you'll have bypassed the hard times, the tribulations, and will find only success and fruitfulness on the otherside.
:love:


Oh my god. An optimist. Finally. What a breath of fresh air. I think most, deep down, really believe you. But they (we) are too scared to admit it. Fear may make us more aggressive which might not be too bad. We'll see. Regardless, thank you.

Yes! Thanks for this. As someone just starting medical school, this was nice to read.
 
All fields are feeling the crunch - my buds who are in cardiology complain about medicare reimbursing jack for caths, ER buddies are feeling pressure from NP's/PA's who are 'specialized' in EM, FM/IM vs every NP with their 'doctorate.' Anesthesia is not alone, if anything we're better off b/c we've been dealing with CRNA's for years and the up and coming Anesthesia residents are excited about our field.

when I was in pharmacy school they told us that pharmD's wouldn't have a job in 10 years and that we'd be replaced by pharmacy technicians and automation - hasn't happened/isn't even close!

Did a 12 year old ortho case yesterday and around my place the CRNA's/SRNA's like to refer to themselves when they introduce themselves to the patient as 'their anesthesia provider.' I always followup that statement with, "hi I'm DR Crazy Jake and I'll be overseeing nurse X that you just met." Well yesterday the 1st thing out of both parents mouth was, 'Jake you'll be doing our sons case right?' Response - Yes sir/maam I will. Patients are always going to want/need us...especially with our medico-legal system.

CJ

No way will this happen. Ever. Maybe that's wishful thinking, cuz I love the ID PharmD on the team I worked with last summer.
 
I have always agreed with the setiment of the original poster. When I decided to go into medicine in 1996 everyone told me I was nuts. There was a "sky is falling" medicine article in Newsweek being passed around by premeds essentially regurgitating the same bull**** you hear today about the medical system. But I studied biochem took the MCAT had a few laughs in college and wound up in med school.

In med school I really loved Anesthesia/CCM and so when I applied to Anesthesiology everyone told me I was nuts. CRNAs going to take you out etc etc. Well I did it anyway, matched to a great program and loved it.

During my residency decided to head into PP without a fellowship. "You'll never make it without a fellowship" they all said. Well I landed a pretty sweet PP gig making a ton of dough and having more time off than I ever imagined I would.

Point is put your head down and work. It's healthy to be skeptical and a little fearfull - it keeps you on your toes. But if I had listened in 1996 to some dip**** college advisor (who probably makes 50K/yr) who told me I was crazy for going into medicine I wouldn't be where I am today. And believe me I truly am happy. I don't work too hard - when I do it's interesting and I get paid a lot.

I'm not saying everyone should go into anesthesia - but if you like it's a pretty sweet deal. F the haters. And don't discount the journey that's half the fun.
 
I have always agreed with the setiment of the original poster. When I decided to go into medicine in 1996 everyone told me I was nuts. There was a "sky is falling" medicine article in Newsweek being passed around by premeds essentially regurgitating the same bull**** you hear today about the medical system. But I studied biochem took the MCAT had a few laughs in college and wound up in med school.

In med school I really loved Anesthesia/CCM and so when I applied to Anesthesiology everyone told me I was nuts. CRNAs going to take you out etc etc. Well I did it anyway, matched to a great program and loved it.

During my residency decided to head into PP without a fellowship. "You'll never make it without a fellowship" they all said. Well I landed a pretty sweet PP gig making a ton of dough and having more time off than I ever imagined I would.

Point is put your head down and work. It's healthy to be skeptical and a little fearfull - it keeps you on your toes. But if I had listened in 1996 to some dip**** college advisor (who probably makes 50K/yr) who told me I was crazy for going into medicine I wouldn't be where I am today. And believe me I truly am happy. I don't work too hard - when I do it's interesting and I get paid a lot.

I'm not saying everyone should go into anesthesia - but if you like it's a pretty sweet deal. F the haters. And don't discount the journey that's half the fun.


Find someone who finished their anesthesia residency in 1993-1999. They will tell you about the nightmares. Unemployment lines and so on. My pack of colleagues are still wondering how we survived it. Now, if it happens again, I could not stick it out since I am too tired for round 2, I will just retire.
 
Find someone who finished their anesthesia residency in 1993-1999. They will tell you about the nightmares. Unemployment lines and so on. My pack of colleagues are still wondering how we survived it. Now, if it happens again, I could not stick it out since I am too tired for round 2, I will just retire.

Which somewhat validates Hockeyguy's point. Even that nightmare resolved. The point is, a lot of people are living in a persistent state of fear and panic, which is not the best frame of mind for life/career decision making.
 
Find someone who finished their anesthesia residency in 1993-1999. They will tell you about the nightmares. Unemployment lines and so on. My pack of colleagues are still wondering how we survived it. Now, if it happens again, I could not stick it out since I am too tired for round 2, I will just retire.

I remember those days. I don't recall "unemployment lines." Where exactly did you line up? What was the purpose of said line? Was there a call for all unemployed anesthesiologists to "line up?" I don't recall that. Seems strange for unemployed doctors to congregate to form a line of some sort.
 
I remember those days. I don't recall "unemployment lines." Where exactly did you line up? What was the purpose of said line? Was there a call for all unemployed anesthesiologists to "line up?" I don't recall that. Seems strange for unemployed doctors to congregate to form a line of some sort.

Unemployment line is extreme. But Many docs, (including me) were grossly underemployed due to the nature of exclusive contracting. Work was available, But it was crap. Even less than many CRNA positions paid. Reason: The fat cat senior partners knew that young hungry docs would be lying in the tall grass looking to cut the throats of those that were exploiting them. Many groups actually preferred CRNAs to fresh grads. They in turn used the abundance of fresh grads to lean on their CRNAs. Pure ruthless capitalism. If you wanted to live in a top 10 metro area you had to be prepared to work for less than a third of the senior partners were making on an hourly basis. It will happen again. Only question is how soon?, how bad? and how long? The people that stand to win are employers of anesthesiologists and CRNAs. Sometimes those are docs and CRNAs Sometimes they are hospitals. Full equity partners of big private practice groups with well credentialed docs who are big in med staff politics in second and third tier cities who have strong noncompetes should be salivating.
 
Med student here. Owie/Anynoise/Blade/EtherMD/etc are all the same person trying to keep people out of anesthesiology so the supply will remain low. They are hoping more residency slots will go unfilled. Essentially, I think that individual is a speculator. Who really goes out of their way to "educate"/instill fear in folks? Of course they could just have way too much time on their hands, too. I enjoy reading this forum, and like to read what most of the attendings/residents write. But I take it with a grain of salt, b/c I don't know anyone here personally. The ignore function on SDN is great when you don't want to read the material that some folks write.

Arrogance of youth. Please email yourself my post in this thread and look at it during your last year of residency or fellowship as you look for jobs.
 
Med student here. Owie/Anynoise/Blade/EtherMD/etc are all the same person trying to keep people out of anesthesiology so the supply will remain low. They are hoping more residency slots will go unfilled. Essentially, I think that individual is a speculator. Who really goes out of their way to "educate"/instill fear in folks? Of course they could just have way too much time on their hands, too. I enjoy reading this forum, and like to read what most of the attendings/residents write. But I take it with a grain of salt, b/c I don't know anyone here personally. The ignore function on SDN is great when you don't want to read the material that some folks write.


Foolish. Doze isn't me. I respect his opinions. We live in different States. Owie doesn't write anything like me. Sorry, but the facts speak for themselves. Anesthesiology is a fine choice for a career but not without its risks/problems going forward. It's because of these risks I recommend a fellowship.

When I finished my Residency in the early 1990s the job market was tight. Starting salaries were in the low to mid 100 range. I heard of some new graduates getting jobs for $80-100K circa 1995/1996. Ugly.

The way things are going history looks like it is going to repeat itself. I expect salaries to drop to the low 200s fairly quickly for new graduates without a fellowship in the better areas.

Doze is 100 percent correct about groups taking advantage of the young,inexperienced graduate. I've seen it and lived it.

If Medicare cuts us 30 percent then the axe will fall that much faster as more groups become hospital employees or AMC workers. If you are looking for the gold at the end of the rainbow then you Need to get there quickly. It won't be around in 5-8 years for the newly minted MD (A).
 
Top