Every field thinks they are in trouble

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I hope all of you doctors who are out of residency are trying to do something about your predictions of doom and gloom. I think the point of the person starting this thread was that he was sick of hearing all these pessimistic opinions. We get the point. Things are not going to be the same in the future but us medical students are going into anesthesiology because it is awesome and we cant see anything else that we would want to do with our lives. Therefore enough of trying to depress us! Instead, spend that time getting involved and ensuring that there is a bright future for us future MD's going into anesthesiology. I am sure many of you are already actively involved and I greatly appreciate that!
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anesthesiabucky said:
I hope all of you doctors who are out of residency are trying to do something about your predictions of doom and gloom. I think the point of the person starting this thread was that he was sick of hearing all these pessimistic opinions. We get the point. Things are not going to be the same in the future but us medical students are going into Anesthesiology because it is awesome and we cant see anything else that we would want to do with our lives. Therefore enough of trying to depress us! Instead, spend that time getting involved and ensuring that there is a bright future for us future MD's going into Anesthesiology. I am sure many of you are already actively involved and I greatly appreciate that!
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You are right. But that time was very painful for me. I was a fresh grad, all name brand credentials, one of the A-list residents. Came out filled with piss and vinegar and could do any case or procedure in anesthesia and wound up working for an FMG who did 2 years of anesthesia residency 20 years before. Guy was best buddies with the CEO and was untouchable. He owned my ass. Didn't matter that I got the requests from the OR staff for their families.
 
dr doze said:
You are right. But that time was very painful for me. I was a fresh grad, all name brand credentials, one of the A-list residents. Came out filled with piss and vinegar and could do any case or procedure in anesthesia and wound up working for an FMG who did 2 years of anesthesia residency 20 years before. Guy was best buddies with the CEO and was untouchable. He owned my ass. Didn't matter that I got the requests from the OR staff for their families.
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I dont doubt that at all. That sounds horrible and I obviously hope that does not happen to me. But unfortunately its not up to me to ensure a good future for anesthesiologists. It is up to those of you who are currently practicing and whose voices matter. There are obviously many things you cannot control, but there are still many positive changes to be made. The future of anesthesia does not have to be as dark as everyone on this forum seems to make it. As long as we don't let it...
 
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anesthesiabucky said:
Instead, spend that time getting involved and ensuring that there is a bright future for us future MD's going into anesthesiology. I am sure many of you are already actively involved and I greatly appreciate that!
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ASAPAC is this way - donate early, donate often.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Foolish. Doze isn't me. I respect his opinions. We live in different States. Owie doesn't write anything like me. Sorry, but the facts speak for themselves. Anesthesiology is a fine choice for a career but not without its risks/problems going forward. It's because of these risks I recommend a fellowship.

When I finished my Residency in the early 1990s the job market was tight. Starting salaries were in the low to mid 100 range. I heard of some new graduates getting jobs for $80-100K circa 1995/1996. Ugly.

The way things are going history looks like it is going to repeat itself. I expect salaries to drop to the low 200s fairly quickly for new graduates without a fellowship in the better areas.

Doze is 100 percent correct about groups taking advantage of the young,inexperienced graduate. I've seen it and lived it.

If Medicare cuts us 30 percent then the axe will fall that much faster as more groups become hospital employees or AMC workers. If you are looking for the gold at the end of the rainbow then you Need to get there quickly. It won't be around in 5-8 years for the newly minted MD (A).
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Good call, Blade. In the early 1990s, low to mid 100k was a whole lot more than it is today. Dr Doze, as I'm sure you know, nowhere in the world will you be the equivalent of your superiors when you first start out. And if you aren't happy with your employment, whether you are an anesthesiologist, accountant, sales person, etc.... you can find a new position elsewhere. If you persist, you can find the job. An anesthesiologist has a great skill set, and is very marketable. I'm sure you're doing well now concerning income, control of your schedule, but somewhere along the line you paid your dues. If a new grad came into your practice and expected equivalent payment/respect as you, you wouldn't take that too well. You would probably think that they should earn it. My old man is a partner at his firm, but he paid his dues. When you join a varisty football team in high school as a sophomore, you have to pay your dues. I think Jet referred to that as "bow your head." I do appreciate your posts, and I'm glad you have moved to positions where you both are better compensated for your labor.

Regardless of your career, if you are not your own boss, your employer will not promote you to partner unless you are equal to more of an asset to the company than they are. And at that point they can offer you partnership or you should go out on your own (if you want to take on the risk). I don't think being a physician makes one immune to having to work their way up the ranks.
 
D P356 said:
Good call, Blade. In the early 1990s, low to mid 100k was a whole lot more than it is today. Dr Doze, as I'm sure you know, nowhere in the world will you be the equivalent of your superiors when you first start out. And if you aren't happy with your employment, whether you are an anesthesiologist, accountant, sales person, etc.... you can find a new position elsewhere. If you persist, you can find the job. An anesthesiologist has a great skill set, and is very marketable. I'm sure you're doing well now concerning income, control of your schedule, but somewhere along the line you paid your dues. If a new grad came into your practice and expected equivalent payment/respect as you, you wouldn't take that too well. You would probably think that they should earn it. My old man is a partner at his firm, but he paid his dues. When you join a varisty football team in high school as a sophomore, you have to pay your dues. I think Jet referred to that as "bow your head." I do appreciate your posts, and I'm glad you have moved to positions where you both are better compensated for your labor.


Regardless of your career, if you are not your own boss, your employer will not promote you to partner unless you are equal to more of an asset to the company than they are. And at that point they can offer you partnership or you should go out on your own (if you want to take on the risk). I don't think being a physician makes one immune to having to work their way up the ranks.
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My point is that during those years that was not the case. Market conditions blunted the belief of a meritocracy that we all hope success in medicine should be. The business side of things prevented highly capable and motivated people from rising to the level of their talents and work ethic. Take a look at the NRMP data from the mid-late 90s. The med students figured it out and voted with their feet.
 
What happened in the mid 90s to anesthesia that it was in such a hard spot? A brief summary would help for some perspective
 
Gern Blansten said:
I remember those days. I don't recall "unemployment lines." Where exactly did you line up? What was the purpose of said line? Was there a call for all unemployed anesthesiologists to "line up?" I don't recall that. Seems strange for unemployed doctors to congregate to form a line of some sort.
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One guy had to take a job in an eye clinic doing cataracts for 3 years. He could not even find a place to moonlight (NYC). He was fully boarded and had to go back and take some more time as a resident to relearn skills that he lost.
Another woman who was with child during the mess had to go on medical assistance to deliver since she had no job. (no one would hire a pregnant woman at that time). She finally got a job when her dept chair begged a friend to throw her a bone (80K full time, surgery center, one CRNA at the same place was making 85K). BTW, she graduated from an ivy.
I know people who stood in unemployment lines.
When I took my orals, the big topic of discussion in the hotel was, "do you have a job?"
 
D P356 said:
Med student here, again. Dude, I don't even think you are a physician; just a continuation of the "anynoise" character who was banned last month. You have contributed nothing to the clinically relevant posts, just to the "this field has no future" posts. As I'm a medical student, I enjoy reading about epidural placements, clinical discussions, etc. It is nice to be able to tie material from the science courses of med school into what attendings speak about and do on a daily basis. But I don't understand all of them b/c I'm just a student. It is kind of like the high school basketball player getting to listen to the professional b-ballers.

Give yourself some credibility before you come out saying you're a doc. Epidural man, Jet, Rx, Arch, Gern, Urge, Bertleman, Sevoflurane......and Blade, and many others contribute a lot to this forum, and if they vent about the field, I can at least assume that they are attendings b/c they contribute good medical material to the forum.

I say this respectfully, Owie/Anynoise/whoever you will be next....your words on here are about as valuable as taint pus on a dinner plate.

Just calling BS.

Have a good night, all.
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FYI,

I also post excellent cases in the private forum. In addition, I usually respond to other cases and sometimes provide peer reviewed references. Consider joining the private forum ( verification required)
 
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owie, you don't fool anyone! you are a murse crna making up idotic stories to scare away med students from entering the field. young attending here. if i had listen to fools like you when i was applying i'd be one miserable bastard. but as it stand$$$, i'm living the good life at a private practice gig, working in a large northeast city. had my pick of jobs. i personally don't know ANY anesthesiologist without a job. not ONE! there will always be a market for well trained anesthesiologists. sure, the economic/political climate is unfavorable to anesthesiology but that goes for ALL of medicine. the funny thing is: even if somehow worse case scenario comes to fruition and my salary ends up getting cut in half... i'd still be earning more than my primary care colleagues. the new crop of anesthesiologists are a hungry bunch and we will put up a fight. so do us all a favor... go to med school or give dr. xyz a lunch break will ya?
 
saratoga733 said:
owie, you don't fool anyone! you are a murse crna making up idotic stories to scare away med students from entering the field. young attending here. if i had listen to fools like you when i was applying i'd be one miserable bastard. but as it stand$$$, i'm living the good life at a private practice gig, working in a large northeast city. had my pick of jobs. i personally don't know ANY anesthesiologist without a job. not ONE! there will always be a market for well trained anesthesiologists. sure, the economic/political climate is unfavorable to anesthesiology but that goes for ALL of medicine. the funny thing is: even if somehow worse case scenario comes to fruition and my salary ends up getting cut in half... i'd still be earning more than my primary care colleagues. the new crop of anesthesiologists are a hungry bunch and we will put up a fight. so do us all a favor... go to med school or give dr. xyz a lunch break will ya?
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I am not a CRNA. But your response is sad. You have no troubles if you have a job right now, and probably will be OK. I suggest that you have a chat with someone who finished in 1993 to 1998 and ask them what things were like. By 2000 things started to look brighter. I do caution med students, won't deny that. Why do you think they had so much trouble finding anesthesia residents by 1998? Word was out. Pretty much just FMGs took the spots. At one residency program the secretary told me that not one resident had a good command of the English language (just an exaggeration, bu tit was funny).
Be careful about the salary being cut in half, that happened at many academic places when the heads knew that no one could find a job elsewhere.
Keep your ears to the ground and know the numbers. If you sense that jobs are tight, reconsider this specialty. BTW, jobs are more scarce in the nicer urban areas.
 
I don't doubt owie at all.

One assumption:

owie and the docs he described were not willing to leave a highly desirable metro are, e.g. NYC, D.C., San Francisco. I knew people that stood in line for pure night only jobs on OB floors that paid less than CRNA wages because they weren't willing to leave urban paradise. I was willing to go to a second tier city.

I was underemployed and exploited during those years by piece of stool senior partners who loved the feeling of owning a guy and moving him like a chess piece because they could. Because I had a mortgage, loans to pay, and a new baby and few alternatives and they had the exclusive contract. I never forgot, Left as soon as the market turned in 2000, Found a passion for learning the economics of medical practice and saving and investing. Nobody will ever own me or make me feel the way I felt during those years ever again.

I totally believe him.


Please save my post and call me an idiot 1 or 3 or 5 years from now. I hope that who ever does is right. But I wouldn't bet on it.
 
owie said:
I am not a CRNA. But your response is sad. You have no troubles if you have a job right now, and probably will be OK. I suggest that you have a chat with someone who finished in 1993 to 1998 and ask them what things were like. By 2000 things started to look brighter. I do caution med students, won't deny that. Why do you think they had so much trouble finding anesthesia residents by 1998? Word was out. Pretty much just FMGs took the spots. At one residency program the secretary told me that not one resident had a good command of the English language (just an exaggeration, bu tit was funny).
Be careful about the salary being cut in half, that happened at many academic places when the heads knew that no one could find a job elsewhere.
Keep your ears to the ground and know the numbers. If you sense that jobs are tight, reconsider this specialty. BTW, jobs are more scarce in the nicer urban areas.
Click to expand...


You speak the truth. They can't handle the truth.
 
mban1257l.jpg
 
dr doze said:
I don't doubt owie at all.

One assumption:

owie and the docs he described were not willing to leave a highly desirable metro are, e.g. NYC, D.C., San Francisco. I knew people that stood in line for pure night only jobs on OB floors that paid less than CRNA wages because they weren't willing to leave urban paradise. I was willing to go to a second tier city.

I was underemployed and exploited during those years by piece of stool senior partners who loved the feeling of owning a guy and moving him like a chess piece because they could. Because I had a mortgage, loans to pay, and a new baby and few alternatives and they had the exclusive contract. I never forgot, Left as soon as the market turned in 2000, Found a passion for learning the economics of medical practice and saving and investing. Nobody will ever own me or make me feel the way I felt during those years ever again.

I totally believe him.


Please save my post and call me an idiot 1 or 3 or 5 years from now. I hope that who ever does is right. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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Doze,

The market is already changing from '09. Jobs are more scarce, starting pay is lower and many are not offering partnership. This trend could accelerate over the next few years bringing the field back to the dark days of '93-'98. If that happens my advice is don't ever work long hours for substandard pay. If you aren't going to get paid for working long hours/taking call, etc. then at least find a cush job earning less.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Doze,

The market is already changing from '09. Jobs are more scarce, starting pay is lower and many are not offering partnership. This trend could accelerate over the next few years bringing the field back to the dark days of '93-'98. If that happens my advice is don't ever work long hours for substandard pay. If you aren't going to get paid for working long hours/taking call, etc. then at least find a cush job earning less.
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I agree completely.
 
My advice to medstudents is to avoid anesthesia only when the people warning you actually leave anesthesia themselves. It must be good for something if they are still in it. Now, I am not saying ignore warning signs, as there are many as we speak, but be careful how you use the information.

If you are warning about impending doom for > 3 years (which is the minimum time to train in another specialty) without actually leaving , then you must not be serious about the said doom.
 
dr doze said:
I don't doubt owie at all.

One assumption:

owie and the docs he described were not willing to leave a highly desirable metro are, e.g. NYC, D.C., San Francisco. I knew people that stood in line for pure night only jobs on OB floors that paid less than CRNA wages because they weren't willing to leave urban paradise. I was willing to go to a second tier city.

I was underemployed and exploited during those years by piece of stool senior partners who loved the feeling of owning a guy and moving him like a chess piece because they could. Because I had a mortgage, loans to pay, and a new baby and few alternatives and they had the exclusive contract. I never forgot, Left as soon as the market turned in 2000, Found a passion for learning the economics of medical practice and saving and investing. Nobody will ever own me or make me feel the way I felt during those years ever again.

I totally believe him.


Please save my post and call me an idiot 1 or 3 or 5 years from now. I hope that who ever does is right. But I wouldn't bet on it.
Click to expand...

Right on brother. I too was one of the unlucky ones that finished in the mid nineties and was owned and used like someone's slave. IT was horrible. i feel the same is going on right now. IF you talk to recruiters they know who is in the drivers seatl
 
Osteoimperfecta said:
My advice to medstudents is to avoid anesthesia only when the people warning you actually leave anesthesia themselves. It must be good for something if they are still in it. Now, I am not saying ignore warning signs, as there are many as we speak, but be careful how you use the information.

If you are warning about impending doom for > 3 years (which is the minimum time to train in another specialty) without actually leaving , then you must not be serious about the said doom.
Click to expand...


Avoid anesthesia? This discussion is about the risks/pitfalls of the economics of anesthesia. Some have said they would rather do this for $200K than anything else. They may just get their wish.
 
anesthesiabucky said:
I hope all of you doctors who are out of residency are trying to do something about your predictions of doom and gloom. I think the point of the person starting this thread was that he was sick of hearing all these pessimistic opinions. We get the point. Things are not going to be the same in the future but us medical students are going into anesthesiology because it is awesome and we cant see anything else that we would want to do with our lives. Therefore enough of trying to depress us! Instead, spend that time getting involved and ensuring that there is a bright future for us future MD's going into anesthesiology. I am sure many of you are already actively involved and I greatly appreciate that!
Click to expand...

Those who post on SDN are involved in this specialty;the point behind the "negativity" is to shed some light on your fantasy about this career. It has been an awesome ride 2000-2012 but the train looks ready to derail circa '93-'98. Can you ride this out? Will the "good times" come again? Who knows? But, it doesn't take a meteorologist to figure out it's going to rain when the sky is black and there is thunder in the air.

Work hard. Study hard. Do well. But, for heaven's sake save some money and pay down your debt.
You won't be living like a rock star or rapper out of Residency.
 
Osteoimperfecta said:
If you are warning about impending doom for > 3 years (which is the minimum time to train in another specialty) without actually leaving , then you must not be serious about the said doom.
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Enh, I don't know about that. It would take more than the possibility of a declining job market in 3-5 years to make me go back and endure another residency, in another field that I was/am less excited about than anesthesia.

If the job market goes to mid-90s-hell in a few years, the people who are attendings NOW will have experience, connections, less/no debt, an FU account ... options. They'll be in a far better position than new grads. I feel like I have solid plans A, B, and maybe C for 2014 when my military payback is done. I would be more concerned if I was finishing residency in 2014.

I wouldn't dismiss the pessimistic thoughts of currently practicing attendings simply because they aren't leaving the specialty now. When guys like dr doze talk about how things were in the 90s, and comment on current events and their thoughts about the future, it just seems foolish to ignore them.
 
hamptonswave said:
Right on brother. I too was one of the unlucky ones that finished in the mid nineties and was owned and used like someone's slave. IT was horrible. i feel the same is going on right now. IF you talk to recruiters they know who is in the drivers seatl
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Why make so many usernames? We get it maceo, your professional life sucks. We have your vote counted to not go into anesthesia. Stop making new usernames and posting the same crap over and over
 
354026960_85f41657da_o.jpg

Go in with your eyes open.
A few years ago, the local premier PP group only hired partner track people. 3 years, you paid a lot to get in but everyone made it, nice and fair. They were very selective and did very well.
They have not hired a partner track person in more than 3 years. Employee only now. Greed, fear, both? It's the new norm. I guess you can go work for them for your ~300 and hope things will change. Of course they're taking 1/2 your pay indefinitely. I don't tell people not to come in, just come in with your eyes wide open.
It doesn't help that Medicaid kills anesthesia already, so any cuts are doubly painful. Our surgeon buddies will always weather the storm better, and at the end of the day, nurses aren't taking out appys.
 
pgg said:
Enh, I don't know about that. It would take more than the possibility of a declining job market in 3-5 years to make me go back and endure another residency, in another field that I was/am less excited about than anesthesia.

If the job market goes to mid-90s-hell in a few years, the people who are attendings NOW will have experience, connections, less/no debt, an FU account ... options. They'll be in a far better position than new grads. I feel like I have solid plans A, B, and maybe C for 2014 when my military payback is done. I would be more concerned if I was finishing residency in 2014.

I wouldn't dismiss the pessimistic thoughts of currently practicing attendings simply because they aren't leaving the specialty now. When guys like dr doze talk about how things were in the 90s, and comment on current events and their thoughts about the future, it just seems foolish to ignore them.
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I would agree except for the fact that these are the same people freaking out the most. No one is dismissing pessimism, but the point of the thread is that there is a diffuse problem with medicine, and it involves virtually all specialties. The real choice is staying in medicine or leaving. If you stay, you will be eating poop at some point, you just have to choose your flavour.
 
Osteoimperfecta said:
I would agree except for the fact that these are the same people freaking out the most. No one is dismissing pessimism, but the point of the thread is that there is a diffuse problem with medicine, and it involves virtually all specialties. The real choice is staying in medicine or leaving. If you stay, you will be eating poop at some point, you just have to choose your flavour.
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It all tastes the same. What matters is how MUCH poop you are forced to eat.;)
 
How about just becoming the human centipede. That could accomplish something similar.
 
pgg said:
Enh, I don't know about that. It would take more than the possibility of a declining job market in 3-5 years to make me go back and endure another residency, in another field that I was/am less excited about than anesthesia.

If the job market goes to mid-90s-hell in a few years, the people who are attendings NOW will have experience, connections, less/no debt, an FU account ... options. They'll be in a far better position than new grads. I feel like I have solid plans A, B, and maybe C for 2014 when my military payback is done. I would be more concerned if I was finishing residency in 2014.

I wouldn't dismiss the pessimistic thoughts of currently practicing attendings simply because they aren't leaving the specialty now. When guys like dr doze talk about how things were in the 90s, and comment on current events and their thoughts about the future, it just seems foolish to ignore them.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping that graduating from medical school in 2014 will give me enough time to really get a sense of where this whole economic climate is going... although at this point, you can count me in the group that would be more than happy doing anesthesia for 1/2 the current pay... but I have a decent income from my wife.

It sounds like the "glut" of the 90's lasted about 5 years? Is that about right? Maybe this one (if it happens) will do about the same and I'll be sitting pretty on the cyclical upturn after residency/fellowship. I guess I can hope, can't I? I need a crystal ball to tell me what the jobs will be like in 2019. Can anybody help me out? :laugh:
 
pgg said:
Enh, I don't know about that. It would take more than the possibility of a declining job market in 3-5 years to make me go back and endure another residency, in another field that I was/am less excited about than anesthesia.

If the job market goes to mid-90s-hell in a few years, the people who are attendings NOW will have experience, connections, less/no debt, an FU account ... options. They'll be in a far better position than new grads. I feel like I have solid plans A, B, and maybe C for 2014 when my military payback is done. I would be more concerned if I was finishing residency in 2014.

I wouldn't dismiss the pessimistic thoughts of currently practicing attendings simply because they aren't leaving the specialty now. When guys like dr doze talk about how things were in the 90s, and comment on current events and their thoughts about the future, it just seems foolish to ignore them.
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Well, I'll be graduating in 2015. That sucks.
 
Anything can happen. The Job market can get better, worse, or freeze. In a frenzy, the calmest heads come out ahead, and those that freak out end up in doing something weird. If you do not have a job, you do what the rest of the country does when they don't have jobs, look for one until you find one. We are not entitled to a job or a certain salary just by virtue of our 'hard' training as doctors, it just so happens that we all usually get something decent eventually.
 
Osteoimperfecta said:
Anything can happen. The Job market can get better, worse, or freeze. In a frenzy, the calmest heads come out ahead, and those that freak out end up in doing something weird. If you do not have a job, you do what the rest of the country does when they don't have jobs, look for one until you find one. We are not entitled to a job or a certain salary just by virtue of our 'hard' training as doctors, it just so happens that we all usually get something decent eventually.
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:thumbup:

There's always academia, or fellowships, too.
 
RT2MD said:
I'm hoping that graduating from medical school in 2014 will give me enough time to really get a sense of where this whole economic climate is going... although at this point, you can count me in the group that would be more than happy doing anesthesia for 1/2 the current pay... but I have a decent income from my wife.

It sounds like the "glut" of the 90's lasted about 5 years? Is that about right? Maybe this one (if it happens) will do about the same and I'll be sitting pretty on the cyclical upturn after residency/fellowship. I guess I can hope, can't I? I need a crystal ball to tell me what the jobs will be like in 2019. Can anybody help me out? :laugh:
Click to expand...


Depends where you’re looking but many great jobs will be around next year. Still a ton of demand for our services.
 
nimbus said:
Depends where you’re looking but many great jobs will be around next year. Still a ton of demand for our services.
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I love necrobumps. Anesthesia is doing just fine if you ask me. Senior resident here now... just finished a call with an awesome attending who billed a whole lot of ca$$$$$h for our work over the last 24h.

Grass is always greener.
 
CodeBlu said:
I love necrobumps. Anesthesia is doing just fine if you ask me. Senior resident here now... just finished a call with an awesome attending who billed a whole lot of ca$$$$$h for our work over the last 24h.

Grass is always greener.
Click to expand...
The grass was much greener 10-12 years ago. Now, the opportunity to make big $$$ is far less. That said, they are still out there for the fortunate 10-15 percent who can find one of those jobs.

For the rest, the majority of jobs are not nearly as lucrative with income in the $350-$450 range. So, if you adjust your expectations accordingly the glass is still half full.
 
BLADEMDA said:
The grass was much greener 10-12 years ago. Now, the opportunity to make big $$$ is far less. That said, they are still out there for the fortunate 10-15 percent who can find one of those jobs.

For the rest, the majority of jobs are not nearly as lucrative with income in the $350-$450 range. So, if you adjust your expectations accordingly the glass is still half full.
Click to expand...

Current CA1. My understanding of the income potential has always been in the 350-450 range which always sounded pretty green to me. How much greener was it before!?
 
As Blade mentioned, most jobs now are in the $350-$450k range. Nobody is starving, but if you looked at the job market 12-14 years ago, most jobs were in EXACTLY that range, or better. Ask friends in other specialties, cops, teachers, firemen, if their income has been FLAT in the last decade.

No, I’m not talking about your buddy (1 out of 10) who practices at the local palace with all private insurance. I’m talking about folks at run of the mill hospitals, whose group is getting a subsidy and has most likely been taken over by an AMC. That extra pay is going in somebody else’s pocket, now.

On the bright side, you’re not handing over half or more of your pay in your first 3 years to your greedy old “partners” as a buy-in. OTOH, you’re now giving 10/20/30% of your pay in perpetuity to “the man” (AMC)....
 
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