Everyone is taking Adderall

[Amit1]

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I just found out a lot of people are taking this drug to increase their performance on the MCAT. They have been taking it every practice test to get used to the results. Is this putting me and everyone else at a disadvantage???

On an up note I study 1/3 as much as those guys and have been ripping them on the practice tests.

 

[jp_md2004]

I have never heard the expression "_____ was my crutch on ____" to mean support--it always means a hinderance, impediment, etc.

'll agree to disagree. Everybody has their own opinion.

It's a word found in the dictionary; you can just look it up. Opinions here do not differ. Even Blacky has now seen the light.

 

[flighterdoc]

Who cares about addiction, it's worth it to squeeze out an extra point on my MCAT!!!!!

Seriously though, I doubt most people who would take the stuff for a few practice tests and an MCAT would get addicted, but you never know.

An extra point, hell - how about going from a Q to an R on the written?

 

[Kazema]

The only way Adderall could be a crutch for taking the MCAT would be if you regularly took Adderall for practice exams but then had it unavailable for the real thing. So your crutch was removed and you were forced to take the test without its assistance.

So taking Adderall for the actual MCAT is not a crutch. You could make the argument that it boxes in your thinking, but in that case it is not a crutch, but rather just a hindrance.

 

[Shrike]

Actually, I had the impression that those arguing "crutch" had two subpoints: first, that it might be a hindrance -- but we disposed of that use of the terminology by showing that crutch does not mean hindrance, even figuratively, in English; and second, that it would enhance performance but that that would be immoral. (If nobody's explicitly arguing that any more, I'm sure it's in the back of some minds.) As to the second argument: if you think it's immoral, don't do it. But you could you stop whining to those whose ideas about morality are different from yours?

 

[indo]

Right. But when used as a figure of speech, it is the thing that holds you back. (as in using a crutch instead of walking normally). Like the Verbal section was always my crutch on the MCAT.

A crutch allows a person mobility despite their handicap.

But, I've only heard "crutch" used to describe something a person uses repeatedly as their own personal scape goat. "I'm a drug addict because my dad left my mom. I'm homeless because my dad left my mom. I'm stealing money from my best friend and its because I'm screwed up because my dad left my mom."

 

[nachoDoc]

Hmm..It's OK..I'm just taking it for the MCAT... I'm not an abuser....
It's OK I'm just taking it for my first semester classes...
It's OK I'm just taking it for my second semester classes...
It's OK I'm just taking it for my third semester classes...
It's OK I'm just taking it for USMLE Step 1...2.....
....yada yada yada...

IMHO - I dont' care what you do to yourself, it's what you might do to a patient that concerns me. ... First do no harm!

" If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."

..This is your brain on drugs......
😱

 

[vixen]

Taking Adderall is one thing. Justifying it is something else. Adderall is a controlled substance. What most of you don't realize is that you can get addicted to it rather easily. Yes, Adderall will provide you with an advantage on the day of the MCAT. You will be able to focus for long periods of time and retain information with great efficiency. The problem with these drugs is that people begin to rely on them. It's easy to say that you will only take Adderall in undergrad to study for the MCAT to get into medical school. But once you are in medical school, you are going to remember that wonder drug that bailed you out during the MCAT. I have an anatomy final in a week, I better pop the Adderall. I'm taking Step I in a week, I better pop an Adderall. Damn, I have a tough time staying awake during this surgery rotation, I better pop an Adderall. And that's how people get addicted to it. They begin to rely upon it much like coffee which then leads to abuse. You don't want to get into a habit of relying on this drug. Adderall has several side effects that can be very detrimental.

My advice is this if you have any history of cardiovascular disease and/or high blood pressure in your immediate family, stop taking it NOW. It could actually be life threatening.

One more thing, if many of you future doctors are thinking of faking the condition to get a legalized prescription of it, be aware that you will have to report you were on Adderrall when you file for your license. Any controlled substances that you take must be reported. Adderall is a controlled substance and you will be forced to report if you want to legally practice medicine. And guess what, lawyers are privy to that information. If you are ever involved in a malpractice suit, that can be used against you in a court of law: "Oh, he is taking Adderall or he or she had a prescription for Adderall, they must have ADD." A lawyer would love to see that.

In my opinion, it's not worth it. There are other ways to help improve concentration. Take Coenzyme Q10, and Phosphatidyl serine which are legal OTC products. Eat lots of fruits and vegetables and try to run 20-30 minutes per day. Get lots of sleep as that will improve concentration. And avoid television and try reading more. This advice might be generic. But take it from ex-Adderrall user, these healthy habits have allowed me to improve my concentration and stamina much more than these drugs.

Obviously, those people who genuinely have ADD or ADHD are sufferring from dysfunction and they NEED these drugs in order to function at any normal level. But it's rare that a person genuinely has this condition and often times this condition is intentionally misdiagnosed by an unscrupolous physcian. For every honest physician who refuses to misdiagnose a patient, you can find 3 of them who are willing to write anyone a script for it.

I'm not going to pass judgement, but I do ask that all of you educate yourselves on this drug so you can make an informed decision. Don't just listen to your friends and people like me. Do your homework if you haven't already.

great post. I really can't believe some of these people, hopefully not all, will have the ability to prescribe drugs.

 

[xlithiumx]

But you could you stop whining to those whose ideas about morality are different from yours?

I'd just like to point something out. Moral relativism is part of the Problem, not part of the solution.

Aside from that, all of you people who take drugs to focus on the MCAT are wimps. For pete's sake, it's just an exam, and it's not like you don't care about it, so you should be able to suck it up and focus for 8 hours in a row, no problem. If you care about the art and practice of medicine, you'll strongly consider changing your destructive and abusive behaviors, because they are just that, destructive and abusive. I feel you don't deserve the title 'doctor' if you continue to disgrace it.

What a disappointment this admissions process has already become. Be a doctor because you want to be a good doctor and serve people. Don't do it to be successful or wealthy, and accept the fact that if you aren't good enough or smart enough, then it's better off that you're not a doctor.

Word

 

[nachoDoc]

I'd just like to point something out. ... if you aren't good enough or smart enough, then it's better off that you're not a doctor.

Here Here!!!


👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

 

[kittieruby]

First of all JP_MD2004 you crack me up!

Secondly, ritalin (I don't know much about aderoll) is really not a harmful subtsance to take when trying to maximize scholastic performance. Trying to do as best as one can is something everyone tries to get an edge on whether drinking ten cups of coffee, getting a few hours extra sleep (which I'm sure we could ALL use) or taking a prescription drug. I don't buy the argument, that if one has enough motivation they can do just as well without something that may be of benefit. The human mind reacts in different ways in all sorts of situations, and for some people ritalin or the rest may be of help in very tense situations such as the MCAT.

Additionally I know people who have taken it just for a couple of tests in college and have done very well and haven't taken the stuff again, until a similar situation has come up again. People pick and choose which exams are toughest and which ones call for greater concentration and memorization. Clearly, not all exams are created equal. If those people can stop whenever they want then they are not trying to "escape" anything in their taking of drugs, which in my mind is what drug addicts are trying to do. People that are "normal" and have an understanding of limits are in my mind, mature enough to decide in what situations they can use prescription drugs. I think that drug addiction is a choice. If someone is going to self-destruct then they're going to no matter what. If someone wants to remember an equation on the MCAT, that's quite a different thing. This in my opinion, puts an end to those who say that one you start you just can't stop.

Also, some people are just not good at taking tests. I used to be one of those people, and throughout college I have learned to calm down and have re-taught myself how to think upon entering a difficult exam. My roomie on the other hand is a total stress case, and I honestly think she would benefit from a ritalin once in a while so she can get control of herself, and stop stressing herself out SO much. But that's not to say she needs Ritalin ALL the time.

Finally, the legal issues posed in this debate are ridiculous. Like someone is really going to wave around and announce that they are in possession of prescription drugs not presribed to them. I am all for ethics and laws (well not all laws, i.e. I would certainly vote to legalize marijuana for medical usuage), but sometimes laws aren't always right...need I bring up examples to prove this? I'm sure we all could on our own.

I just find it interesting, that those in this debate who either support or are apathetic toward the taking of prescription drugs on test days, aren't trying to stuff their points of views down other peoples throats. Whereas many of you who find it so morally WRONG are critical and judgemental. People have a right to do whatever they want to their bodies, and what they choose to do doesn't mean they want everyone else to follow suit. If I smoke a cigarette, it doesn't mean that I want or am a proponent of my thirteen year old sister smoking. If I smoke a cigarette to give me an "EDGE" or to "CALM" down, it doesn't mean I am a morally conflicted person. Geez, some of ya'll need to get off your moral high horses, and stop pretending that you aren't humans.

That's it. 🙄

 

[frank51]

Its good to see at least one person on this forum who is being logical, most people here are acting like a typical anal pre-med.

 

[doc3341]

If you guys cant focus without aderol, what makes you think your going to be able to focus when med school starts. if you cant focus now, good luck in med school!!! Maybe your going into the wrong profession. You shouldnt need a stimulant like aderol to focus for a mere 8 hour test. C'mon, who are you kidding. 😴 😴 😴 😴 😴

 

[IndyZX]

If you guys cant focus without aderol, what makes you think your going to be able to focus when med school starts. if you cant focus now, good luck in med school!!! Maybe your going into the wrong profession. You shouldnt need a stimulant like aderol to focus for a mere 8 hour test. C'mon, who are you kidding. 😴 😴 😴 😴 😴

is that what question marks look like? wait, i answered my own question.

 

[TheFlash]

First of all JP_MD2004 you crack me up!

Secondly, ritalin (I don't know much about aderoll) is really not a harmful subtsance to take when trying to maximize scholastic performance. Trying to do as best as one can is something everyone tries to get an edge on whether drinking ten cups of coffee, getting a few hours extra sleep (which I'm sure we could ALL use) or taking a prescription drug. I don't buy the argument, that if one has enough motivation they can do just as well without something that may be of benefit. The human mind reacts in different ways in all sorts of situations, and for some people ritalin or the rest may be of help in very tense situations such as the MCAT.

Additionally I know people who have taken it just for a couple of tests in college and have done very well and haven't taken the stuff again, until a similar situation has come up again. People pick and choose which exams are toughest and which ones call for greater concentration and memorization. Clearly, not all exams are created equal. If those people can stop whenever they want then they are not trying to "escape" anything in their taking of drugs, which in my mind is what drug addicts are trying to do. People that are "normal" and have an understanding of limits are in my mind, mature enough to decide in what situations they can use prescription drugs. I think that drug addiction is a choice. If someone is going to self-destruct then they're going to no matter what. If someone wants to remember an equation on the MCAT, that's quite a different thing. This in my opinion, puts an end to those who say that one you start you just can't stop.

Also, some people are just not good at taking tests. I used to be one of those people, and throughout college I have learned to calm down and have re-taught myself how to think upon entering a difficult exam. My roomie on the other hand is a total stress case, and I honestly think she would benefit from a ritalin once in a while so she can get control of herself, and stop stressing herself out SO much. But that's not to say she needs Ritalin ALL the time.

Finally, the legal issues posed in this debate are ridiculous. Like someone is really going to wave around and announce that they are in possession of prescription drugs not presribed to them. I am all for ethics and laws (well not all laws, i.e. I would certainly vote to legalize marijuana for medical usuage), but sometimes laws aren't always right...need I bring up examples to prove this? I'm sure we all could on our own.

I just find it interesting, that those in this debate who either support or are apathetic toward the taking of prescription drugs on test days, aren't trying to stuff their points of views down other peoples throats. Whereas many of you who find it so morally WRONG are critical and judgemental. People have a right to do whatever they want to their bodies, and what they choose to do doesn't mean they want everyone else to follow suit. If I smoke a cigarette, it doesn't mean that I want or am a proponent of my thirteen year old sister smoking. If I smoke a cigarette to give me an "EDGE" or to "CALM" down, it doesn't mean I am a morally conflicted person. Geez, some of ya'll need to get off your moral high horses, and stop pretending that you aren't humans.

That's it. 🙄

Justify it however you want. Laugh in the face of moralists. You'll always be a weak sauce who couldn't succeed without a drug. Your self-doubt will eat you alive in the OR.

 

[Conquistador]

When I take Adderall I feel completely calm and organized. It shouldn't make you feel jittery... maybe you are taking too much. I dunno... but I'll definitely be taking it next Saturday.

Is that stuff gonna keep you going strong for 8 hours? won't you come down during the exam?

 

[frank51]

Justify it however you want. Laugh in the face of moralists. You'll always be a weak sauce who couldn't succeed without a drug. Your self-doubt will eat you alive in the OR.

If you want to challenge his argument go ahead and counter the points that he has made, your above statement is nothing but a personal attack.

 

[Jaded Soul]

Propanolol = XANEX = highly highly highly addictive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Propranolol isn't Xanex. It also goes by the trade name Inderal, a non-specific beta-blocker. It's indicated for hypertension, some heart conditions, essential tremor, migraine prophylaxis, and some other conditions that I can't recall. Anxiety isn't one of them. It's also prescribed off-label for performance anxiety, such as public speaking.

Xanax (generic name, alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine. It's indicated for anxiety disorders. Abuse, tolerance, and withdrawal do not occur infrequently. It can be fatal in overdose and abrupt withdrawal.

 

[TheFlash]

If you want to challenge his argument go ahead and counter the points that he has made, your above statement is nothing but a personal attack.

You're a quick one. People who take drugs specifically to evade true merit smell like tuna.

 

[GoBlue2004]

Lack of knowledge always leads to over reactivity; I?d expect this kind of behavior in other forums, but not in a forum full of future doctors. I personally think that it is best to avoid using drugs as much as possible whether it is Acetaminophen or codeine. But the truth is that society doesn?t know sh** about the real physiological impact of drugs, we have all heard such BS statements as ?steroids give you cancer?, ?smoking weed leads to loss of brain cells?, etc?

I can't help, but interject about this quote...sure we don't know everything about the side effects and the supposed physiological mechanisms of these drugs, but we do have a pretty good idea. In the pharmaceutical industry when they screen drugs for possible substrate/receptor activity in in vitro assays they do know the major mechanisms these drugs act, but you are right in that you can't take in vitro analysis and apply it to a complex physiological system and assume the same predicted results will occur. For a drug to come onto the market you need to prove to the FDA that the drugs will work (prove efficacy) and that they are safe in normal individuals (definition of safe is relative).
Oh...and steroids may not always give you cancer, but they do significantly increase the risk of certain cancers...i.e. cancers such as breast cancer is estrogen dependent so steroids could increase your risk. So that statement is not all BS.

 

[GoBlue2004]

I don't think there have been any long term studies to date showing that there are long-term effects from taking Adderall (amphetamine salts) as an adolescent/young adult.

You know...I'm don't believe in performance enhancing drugs to give you an edge over the competition, but I do get annoyed at people for shooting off at the mouth with reactionary and unproven claims to support their ethical viewpoints. Morals and ethics is one thing and should be dealt with alone. Scientific evidence is another and they should not be confused. There is no long term study to show that these drugs have any serious consequences. The short term side effects might include the normal sympathetic responses, and you might have some delayed growth, but this usually can be corrected by weaning the child off for 2-3 months during the summer.
These drugs do increased attention and focus, but they surely don't help you to think better, they don't improve memory retention (in fact it is the opposite if you are on them for a long time), there really isn't a great risk for addiction because they don't give you a high like cocaine or crystal meth (because they take to long to get into the brain and they take too long to get out so the kinetics of the drug distribution is slow). However, they can make you tired when you are not taking them...and perhaps by a mechanism you trying to avoid the "downer" side effect you keep taking it so in this way it might be addictive....who knows, but I think a lot of the opinions are over statements of the fact.

 

[IndyZX]

i especially enjoy the thought of some of you being psychiatrists, prescribing medicine to your patients as you ridicule their weaknesses

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

I have an idea. Why don't we ALL take as many performance enhancing drugs as possible? I mean, if we don't NEED to feel anxiety or pain, and if we would all study better, work harder, and look better, why not pursue it? It can only alleviate suffering and make us better people, right?

In fact, as better drugs become available, we won't even need to worry about side effects, and our performance could far outstrip what we could do if we didn't take the drugs.

Additionally, we could begin giving drugs to kids as they grow up to improve their lives and make them happier individuals. For example, we could start giving HGH to kids, since it has been proven that taller people have more opportunities and greater success than short people. After all, can you expect your 5'2" son to be a quarterback in the NFL? Why should we take that opportunity away?

If we put my plan into effect, we could have a much more effective, productive, and happy society with little suffering and great success. If the drugs are available, why not use them?

[/sarcasm]

 

[xlithiumx]

i especially enjoy the thought of some of you being psychiatrists, prescribing medicine to your patients as you ridicule their weaknesses

You're missing the point here. People are not criticizing the appropriate and prescribed use of drugs like Adderall. They're criticizing people who abuse Adderall as a performance enhancer.

Mental illness is not a weakness of character, it's a medical condition. Contrarily, people who abuse Adderall as a performance enhancer do display a weakness of character. That's a distinction that physicians need to make.

Word

 

[kittieruby]

"...people who abuse Adderall as a performance enhancer do display a weakness of character. That's a distinction that physicians need to make."

Actually, the distinction that needs to be made by medical students (or children?) on this forum is about the term abuse, which many of you keep throwing around in your moral zealousness. If you read carefully, nobody here is advocating abuse. And I'm not really interested in trying to change anybody's mind about their personal views, but if many of you had kept an open mind, this forum could be used for debate, not personal attacks ... a la TheFlash. I mean please, grow up and stop acting like such a child - so many adults (and future physicians?) are still unable to control their emotions in the face if disagreement.

 

[GMO_52]

Wow. This is quite disappointing but I guess its not surprising. These drugs are amphetamines, pure and simple. If you use an amphetamine without a rx or in a way other than how it was rx'd, you are abusing it. That is the law. So, you're right, you won't get caught at the moment, but you are abusing drugs.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is that this probably works. Military pilots take amphetamines (with rx's) for this very purpose. The thing is, your life is going to get harder. Every test in med school is more important than the MCAT (because the MCAT is already in the rearview mirror) and I can easily see where people will find it very very hard to stop. I'll just use it for Gross Anatomy...I'll stop after Path...I NEED this for Step I...So, just because you don't get hooked while a premed, doesn't mean this wasn't a very bad choice. You've crossed a line, you'll probably find the need to cross it again and eventually your addiction will harm you. We have such easy access to meds. Good luck folks.

 

[xlithiumx]

If you read carefully, nobody here is advocating abuse.

Anyone who advocates the unprescribed use of Adderall or any other controlled substance is in fact advocating abuse. Abuse has been defined several times on this thread, and several people have stated that they use Adderall w/o prescription.

This part has nothing to do with people's morals. It has everything to do with the legality and ethical standing of their actions.

Tolerating abuse is advocating abuse.

Word

 

[kittieruby]

"This part has nothing to do with people's morals. It has everything to do with the legality and ethical standing of their actions."

Well I don't agree with much of the "legality and ethical standing" of most people's actions because I don't really see a justification for many of the ridiculous laws and ethics in this country. And clearly, you lack the consideration of my over all point, which is that nobody has a right to tell someone else what to do with their body. What makes you think that YOU have the right to tell anybody what they can and cannot do? A law? Ethics? You think because a law says someone can't do something, then that lawmaker is automatically right? Think about where you get your information before you go about making accusations.

 

[xlithiumx]

Well I don't agree with much of the "legality and ethical standing" of most people's actions because I don't really see a justification for many of the ridiculous laws and ethics in this country.

Understand that there are a plethora of both ethical and legal standards that you will have to follow as a physician. For Christ's sake, the Hippocratic oath is an ethical standard which you will have to follow. Keep in mind, you are "can" do whatever you want to. However, just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you are right to do it.

Are you too "independent" to be a physician? If you're not willing to submit to certain ethics and laws, maybe medicine isn't right for you?

Word

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

"This part has nothing to do with people's morals. It has everything to do with the legality and ethical standing of their actions."

Well I don't agree with much of the "legality and ethical standing" of most people's actions because I don't really see a justification for many of the ridiculous laws and ethics in this country. And clearly, you lack the consideration of my over all point, which is that nobody has a right to tell someone else what to do with their body. What makes you think that YOU have the right to tell anybody what they can and cannot do? A law? Ethics? You think because a law says someone can't do something, then that lawmaker is automatically right? Think about where you get your information before you go about making accusations.

It's the man trying to hold you down. Obviously, that's why a prescription is necessary for these drugs.

 

[superdevil]

you know, given the level of ego present on SDN, somehow i still don't know how this thread just keeps going, and going, and going.....

ritalin, adderall, who cares? the effects of ritalin are no more serious to an individual than alcohol (even though their effects largely oppose each other), and both are dangerous in terms of abuse; i.e., prolonged use leads to dependence, psychosis, other health problems, yadda yadda yadda.

what really kills me about SDN's resident high-horse brigade is that so many people think that adderall can turn a drooling ****** into a superstar med school matriculant, and when the adderall is take away, all hell will apparently break loose, and lives could be lost. won't somebody please think of the children?! its a pill, its not magic, OK?

for my own opinion (you knew it was coming 😀 ), the role of a physician (and, for the purposes of this post, i'm talking primary care) is to evaluate a situation, inform the patient about the pros and cons of various plans of action, and allow them to make an informed descision on their own (face it you idealists, your patients will do whatever the hell they want to anyway, so they're best served by being informed of the potential consequences of their actions). i consider this analogous to college kids taking adderall--its no skin off my nuts, as long as they understand what they're getting into.

and, for those who want to know, i have taken adderall exactly twice in my life, and it didn't do a damn thing. oh well.

the end 😀

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

So, I take it you would allow professional athletes to use steroids?

 

[elin]

"This part has nothing to do with people's morals. It has everything to do with the legality and ethical standing of their actions."

Well I don't agree with much of the "legality and ethical standing" of most people's actions because I don't really see a justification for many of the ridiculous laws and ethics in this country. And clearly, you lack the consideration of my over all point, which is that nobody has a right to tell someone else what to do with their body. What makes you think that YOU have the right to tell anybody what they can and cannot do? A law? Ethics? You think because a law says someone can't do something, then that lawmaker is automatically right? Think about where you get your information before you go about making accusations.

Your point is irrelevant. As a doctor, you may be placed in situations where you "tell patients what they can and cannot do with their bodies." A good example of this is a suicidal patient/ person who inflicts injury on self etc. Another case that may interest you is the woman in Utah whose refusal to undergo a C-section led to the death of one of her children. If you are uncomfortable with this responsibility,now is the time to run for the hills. In addition, I suggest that you think about where you get your information before you go about posting poorly reasoned, juvenile rants concerning medical ethics.

It is sort of sad to see that people will stoop so low for the MCAT. Is it really that serious that you have to pop a little Adderall or speed or whatever? Are your classes so crucial that you have to pop Adderall or speed before exams or the final? Geez, it's the MCAT people, not rocket science.

 

[superdevil]

sure, right after i told them they would get testicular cancer and die. informed descisions, that's what its all about. like i said, your patients will leave the office and have a triple cheeseburger, go mountain climbing, smoke cigarrettes, and do whatever they want to anyway. i would just make sure they understand the problems associated, and advise against it.

am i supposed to follow the athletes around 24/7 and keep them out of trouble? i don't understand how a doctor does or doesn't "allow" someone to take steroids. also, if you keep up on the whole baseball scandal, you'll find that athletes don't go to doctors for steriods, they go to trainers. that's a different forum. 🙂

 

[kittieruby]

Um no. I want to be a physician because of a greater need and want to reach out and help people. I don't want to be a physician because I believe in laws and am interested in acting like moralist. Do you think that people who come into the ER are all going to be people that were affected only by disease and accidents? Don't think you won't have your share of ODs in there. And then what will you do? Refuse to help them because you are disgusted by their moral choices in life? Get a grip. You are clearly very conservative, which is fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I however, am not a conservative and take a more liberal stance on medicine and drug use (i.e. ritalin). I just do not think that someone who takes ritalin for the MCAT is a horrible person destined to a life of self-doubt because they can't hack it. That's like saying someone who drinks coffee (and remember here that caffeine is a drug) isn't going to make it in life. So what's the difference? Caffeine is a drug and so is a compulsive coffee drinker a morally Right person just because caffeine is available without a prescription? Do you understand my parallel here - that you can't judge a person by what they and do and do not put or do to their bodies according to laws. Who are you to judge anyone? And for the umpteenth time, I don't think someone who takes ritalin during the MCAT is thereby suggesting EVERYONE should take ritalin.

In addition please stop acting as if I take drugs. Because for your information I don't. However, I don't look down upon people's ability to make their own decisions in their life and not follow a series of laws as absolute and the distinguishing factor of what is Right and Wrong. You're quite caught up in the legality of the issue, and I however, am simply refuting your judgment of someone according to what the "law says" Learn to think for yourselves.

Finally, as a physician, one of the main goals besides primary care, is to educate people about their situation. If I tell someone about the long-term effects of ritalin, it is not then my responsibility to follow that person around and make sure they don't take ritalin.

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

superdevil:

I'm not as interested in the physician's position on giving steroids as much as your opinion regarding whether their use should be allowed by professional sports organizations or not. Just as an example, should MLB say, "Yeah, we know Barry Bonds takes steroids, and he hits homers because of it. We don't have a problem with that."

My argument is, choosing to use these substances, while not a total substitute for natural ability, gives an edge over someone of equal ability who chooses not to.

In professional sports, this would mean lower performance, thus, lower pay. In the pre-med world, it would mean a person who used the substance could potentially score higher on the MCAT than a person who doesn't. Thus, they are more likely to get into medical school. Even if the affect is mild, arguing that it doesn't affect the outcome is obsurd.

If we were simply talking about feeling better, and not "chemical cheating", I would agree that we have no reason to stop them. However, since real world consequences involving other people are possible, if not likely, this should not stand.

 

[xlithiumx]

1) Abusing drugs is wrong, and as a physician, you should stand against drug abuse.
2) I believe abusing drugs is wrong because it is dangerous to the abuser and to the people around them.
3) I'm not making a moral judgement on drug abusers, but rather an ethical judgement, based upon considering the potential outcomes of their behaviors.
4) I am not in fact a "a conservative". I do however believe that certain things are right and that certain things are wrong in certain circumstances.
5) I am thinking for myself, I just happen to believe that the law in this case has the best interest of humanity in mind.
6) As a physician, even though it may not be your responsibility to follow your patients around, you should care with the greatest passion that your patients do follow your advice.

 

[elin]

Um no. I want to be a physician because of a greater need and want to reach out and help people. I don't want to be a physician because I believe in laws and am interested in acting like moralist. Do you think that people who come into the ER are all going to be people that were affected only by disease and accidents? Don't think you won't have your share of ODs in there. And then what will you do? Refuse to help them because you are disgusted by their moral choices in life? Get a grip. You are clearly very conservative, which is fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I however, am not a conservative and take a more liberal stance on medicine and drug use (i.e. ritalin). I just do not think that someone who takes ritalin for the MCAT is a horrible person destined to a life of self-doubt because they can't hack it. That's like saying someone who drinks coffee (and remember here that caffeine is a drug) isn't going to make it in life. So what's the difference? Caffeine is a drug and so is a compulsive coffee drinker a morally Right person just because caffeine is available without a prescription? Do you understand my parallel here - that you can't judge a person by what they and do and do not put or do to their bodies according to laws. Who are you to judge anyone? And for the umpteenth time, I don't think someone who takes ritalin during the MCAT is thereby suggesting EVERYONE should take ritalin.

If I tell someone about the long-term effects of ritalin, it is not then my responsibility to follow that person around and make sure they don't take ritalin.

I think you missed the point. Hello- when you are a physician, you will be forced to take action depending on what patients put into their bodies according to the law, especially if someone OD's and shows up in the ER with a Hx of self-destructive or suicidal behavior.

If you don't want people to judge you, don't try to rationalize your pathetic behavior on a premed message board. I don't think people who use Ritalin etc. illegally are horrible people, but do you know how desperate and lame it sounds? This is merely an exstension of the premed syndrome, people who must take everything to the ^9 because they're premed. OMG I can't believe I got a B+ in bio, my life is over. OMG, what is more prestigious, Americorps or Teach for America? OMG, I can't believe I got a 32 on the MCAT, should I turn to the Carribbean? If you're going to abuse drugs, at least find a worthwhile reason.

 

[ItsGavinC]

is that what question marks look like? wait, i answered my own question.

Yeah, his lack of proper punctuation really was detrimental to his argument.

 

[ItsGavinC]

med school.. mcat its all a game.... if your not doing everything you can to win the game.. its your fault.. ya snooze ya lose suckers

This very well could be the dumbest posting all year.

Congrats.

 

[superdevil]

yea, you bring up a good point. i suppose, in the interest of TOTAL fairness, one could say that ALL substances which enhance performance should be banned.

although its a useable model, i think there are subtleties about the premed/ritalin scenario not present in the baseball/steroids case. for instance, you could easily say that adderall confers an unfair test-taking advantage on any user (the extent is not relevant here). but who should use it and who shouldn't? doesn't using ritalin confer an advantage when prescribed for ADHD that the user wouldn't have had otherwise? or, even worse, i've heard of people who are very "borderline" ADHD who raise a fuss and get a script from the campus nurse practitioner/doctor. by borderline, i mean symptoms are such that they do not hinder one's ability to take tests, or moreso, totally fabricated.

should a person taking adderall on a prescription be allowed to take the MCAT, whereas those without cannot? what about the "borderline" (wink wink, nudge nudge) cases? hell, its performance altering for those who actually need it too, is that ok?

my point is, while it may be fun to debate, it is functionally impossible to draw a line in the sand to differentiate between what's acceptable (re: MCAT + ritalin) and what isn't without taking an extreme stance that may be problematic on its own (can't you see the ACLU suing the AAMC if ALL users are prohibited?).

sd

 

[kittieruby]

..."try to rationalize your pathetic behavior on a premed message board." 👎

Excuse me? Do you have an anger problem? I am mearly stating my opinion. Perhaps you are pathetic if you can't understand that and get control of yourself. Forums are a place for stating opinions and contributing to discussions. I can just imagine you in the ER:

"You overdosed?! UGH, YOU ARE PATHETIC!"


And by the way exactly what "pathetic behaviour" am I trying to rationalize? Because if you think it's drug use then you're poorly mistaken. 😉

 

[elin]

😱

..."try to rationalize your pathetic behavior on a premed message board." 👎

Excuse me? Do you have an anger problem? I am mearly stating my opinion. Perhaps you are pathetic if you can't understand that and get control of yourself. Forums are a place for stating opinions and contributing to discussions. I can just imagine you in the ER:

"You overdosed?! UGH, YOU ARE PATHETIC!"


And by the way exactly what "pathetic behaviour" am I trying to rationalize? Because if you think it's drug use then you're poorly mistaken. 😉

LOL. I don't see how my post suggests that I have an anger problem. I also merely stated an opinion. Where have I said that addicts/ chronic drug abusers are bad people? My point is that ethical issues can present when treating people who are addicts/ chronic drug abusers. I have posted scenarios where medicolegal issues have complicated patient care, and you have yet to put together a cogent response. That line you quoted above wasn't necessarily directed to you, but to the other posters that have tried to rationalize their illegal usage of drugs before exams and expect others to agree.

And what are you going to say when Suzy Sunshine shows up in the ER after flipping on X and roofies or trips on acid and starts cutting her wrist with scissors or ripping her skin off??

"OMG, YOU GO AHEAD GIRLFRIEND BECAUSE IT'S YOUR BODY !!!!!"

 

[kittieruby]

"LOL. I don't see how my post suggests that I have an anger problem. I also merely stated an opinion. Where have I said that addicts/ chronic drug abusers are bad people? My point is that ethical issues can present when treating people who are addicts/ chronic drug abusers. I have posted scenarios where medicolegal issues have complicated patient care, and you have yet to put together a cogent response. That line you quoted above wasn't necessarily directed to you, but to the other posters that have tried to rationalize their illegal usage of drugs before exams and expect others to agree.

And what are you going to say when Suzy Sunshine shows up in the ER after flipping on X and roofies or trips on acid and starts cutting her wrist with scissors or ripping her skin off??

"OMG, YOU GO AHEAD GIRLFRIEND BECAUSE IT'S YOUR BODY !!!!!""

First of all I am not here to respond to your hypothetical medical situations. I am talking about issues first presented on this board. Secondly, re: cogent responses, you might want to take a look at your own responses. For the fifth time, nobody is expecting anybody else to agree with their own choice of drug use before exams, as I have stated many times before. Thirdly, I already addressed the issue you brought up in your last paragraph in my last post before this one. Perhaps you ought to back track.

I am not interested in getting into a cat fight with someone who needs to take a chill pill. You might want to reconsider your ideas about presciption drugs, because you could clearly benefit from a couple of Xanax. I come from an Ivy League school where open debate is seen as a positive form of communication. You obviously see it as a means to attack others not in agreement with you.

Regarding the use of ritalin and adderoll I have stated my opinions. I have nothing else to say about your specific posts. I'm not really interested in having the last word. I'm out of here.

 

[xlithiumx]

Since when is USC an Ivy League?

 

[kittieruby]

Umm, I go to Columbia. I am a visiting student at USC. But how did you know where I go to school?

 

[xlithiumx]

It's not that hard to find out.

 

[kittieruby]

Oh duh, my profile.

 

[Cerberus]

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[elin]

"
First of all I am not here to respond to your hypothetical medical situations. I am talking about issues first presented on this board. Secondly, re: cogent responses, you might want to take a look at your own responses. For the fifth time, nobody is expecting anybody else to agree with their own choice of drug use before exams, as I have stated many times before. Thirdly, I already addressed the issue you brought up in your last paragraph in my last post before this one. Perhaps you ought to back track.

I am not interested in getting into a cat fight with someone who needs to take a chill pill. You might want to reconsider your ideas about presciption drugs, because you could clearly benefit from a couple of Xanax. I come from an Ivy League school where open debate is seen as a positive form of communication. You obviously see it as a means to attack others not in agreement with you.

Regarding the use of ritalin and adderoll I have stated my opinions. I have nothing else to say about your specific posts. I'm not really interested in having the last word. I'm out of here.

I wasn't aware that this was a catfight... I also don't see why it matters that you go to an Ivy League school, but that is neither here nor there. Part of the debate in this thread centers on the ethical issues surrounding certain actions. You mentioned something along the lines that you didn't think it was your place to judge people because of their actions and "what they do or do not put into their bodies." I think that dbaldes said it best- there is a plethora of both ethical and legal standards that you will have to follow as a physician, many of which seem to clash with the views you have espoused in this thread.
hth

 

[willthatsall]

Guys, forget Adderall. Seriously, I tried a mix of ephedra and heroin today and it was unbelievable. If you are using Adderall now, you gotta try this. It's 10X better for heightened awareness and concentration.