Experiences as or with URMs at your school

[BlondeCookie]

That's what I'm talkin about. I'm glad you have more sense than your classmates. I'd still like to tear into that dude myself... but calling him out was more than enough... good job

Hey WhatUp. Unfortunately for society, the ignorant guy in our lunch group is one of the best students in the class. He's always making Dean's List and he's going to make it to the top somewhere, but I just don't see how all that deep-rooted hate is going to go away. I don't know. Now, I kind of look at him and his friends and wonder. I mean, if he's talking all this trash around me and my friends who aren't very close to him as all his buddies are... Well, who knows the level of ignorant attitudes in conversations that goes on between them? In any case, its really made me a little suspect of people that tend to associate with this jerk.

fun8, I was new to that term "monkey" being offensive to blacks. But, I'm also not stupid enough to use it to describe a person even before my naivety. You could probably do a search on here and find it used here in a less than flattering way. Ex I found: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=270468&highlight=monkey
I don't think it's uncommon that a lot of racist attitudes go unnoticed. And I don't want to speak on behalf of minorities, since I'm not one. I just feel that a lot of today's racist attitudes are more hidden and not as obvious as my personal story (on p2 of this thread) at school.

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[TheCat]

I went to a school before that had a 5 year "slow" program and 7/8 people in the program were black-make of it what you will. In the "normal" class of 150 there was only 1 black person. Now you can say what you will but there is some obvious things you can deduce from situations like this.

 

[BlondeCookie]

I went to a school before that had a 5 year "slow" program and 7/8 people in the program were black-make of it what you will. In the "normal" class of 150 there was only 1 black person. Now you can say what you will but there is some obvious things you can deduce from situations like this.

What do you mean, "make of it what you will"? You sound like you are insinuating that black males are inferior in intelligence to others, but you don't want to come out and just say it. Your reply is further validation that my above theory about racism being hidden today is true.

 

[TheCat]

not just males..

 

[MrSosa]

I went to a school before that had a 5 year "slow" program and 7/8 people in the program were black-make of it what you will. In the "normal" class of 150 there was only 1 black person. Now you can say what you will but there is some obvious things you can deduce from situations like this.

Why don't you let us know what those obvious things are?

 

[Airzonk]

I went to a school before that had a 5 year "slow" program and 7/8 people in the program were black-make of it what you will. In the "normal" class of 150 there was only 1 black person. Now you can say what you will but there is some obvious things you can deduce from situations like this.

Damn man first this thread from you ( Hey I am a homo-I have favorite med school books-anyone else??) Now these comments. Your the suck.

 

[Thundrstorm]

there are people around today that call people 'monkey'? wtf?

There are plenty of them. I've heard it myself. Many people are not as evolved as we'd all like to think.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Are you Ghanaian?

This made me think of another trend I've noticed: Of the black men (and women to a certain extent) I've encountered in medical school classes or as premeds, I've noticed a good bulk of them are recent African immigrants. I think this has to do with a few things.
1) Recent immigrants had to have had the resources to get to America, so they probably have more resources than the average African American.
2) Immigrant mentality vs African American mentality.

I was talking to one of my premed friends who is from Nigeria about racism. He actually doesn't notice racism because he doesn't really know what to look for. Unless its blatant, he has no idea that he's being discriminated against. Consequently he doesn't expect to encounter racism, doesn't feel hindered because of his race, and doesn't have the same fear that others will reject/fail him because he's black. As an African American, about racism (and consequently how to recognize it) from the time I was a child. My parents were heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement and I've been told since I can remember, "As a black woman, you'll have to be better than everyone else just to be considered equal." To some degree, it's stifling to know that the rest of society thinks you're inferior because of your race's history.

Also, I think African Immigrants have a stronger cultural identity. One of the most injurious aspects of slavery's legacy is that it robbed Blacks of their cultural identity. I, much like most blacks, can't tell you where in Africa my ancestors originated. I don't know what they ate, what religion they had, what songs they sang, what holidays they celebrated, or how they identified themselves. Consequently, I eat "soul food" (the worst cuts of the pig, toughest of the veggies, etc) because that's what slaves ate. I am Christian because slave masters converted their slaves to Christianity. I sing slave spirituals at church. I celebrate June Teenth (day slaves were freed in Texas). I identify with a struggle, because that's all blacks have known in this country. In this way, every African American carries with him the historical identity of the slaves. I think this alone generates an inferiority complex.

 

[CANES2006]

This made me think of another trend I've noticed: Of the black men (and women to a certain extent) I've encountered in medical school classes or as premeds, I've noticed a good bulk of them are recent African immigrants. I think this has to do with a few things.
1) Recent immigrants had to have had the resources to get to America, so they probably have more resources than the average African American.
2) Immigrant mentality vs African American mentality.

I was talking to one of my premed friends who is from Nigeria about racism. He actually doesn't notice racism because he doesn't really know what to look for. Unless its blatant, he has no idea that he's being discriminated against. Consequently he doesn't expect to encounter racism, doesn't feel hindered because of his race, and doesn't have the same fear that others will reject/fail him because he's black. As an African American, about racism (and consequently how to recognize it) from the time I was a child. My parents were heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement and I've been told since I can remember, "As a black woman, you'll have to be better than everyone else just to be considered equal." To some degree, it's stifling to know that the rest of society thinks you're inferior because of your race's history.

Also, I think African Immigrants have a stronger cultural identity. One of the most injurious aspects of slavery's legacy is that it robbed Blacks of their cultural identity. I, much like most blacks, can't tell you where in Africa my ancestors originated. I don't know what they ate, what religion they had, what songs they sang, what holidays they celebrated, or how they identified themselves. Consequently, I eat "soul food" (the worst cuts of the pig, toughest of the veggies, etc) because that's what slaves ate. I am Christian because slave masters converted their slaves to Christianity. I sing slave spirituals at church. I celebrate June Teenth (day slaves were freed in Texas). I identify with a struggle, because that's all blacks have known in this country. In this way, every African American carries with him the historical identity of the slaves. I think this alone generates an inferiority complex.

Very interesting post. I never thought about many of the facts that you pointed out. Great post.

 

[Saluki]

This made me think of another trend I've noticed: Of the black men (and women to a certain extent) I've encountered in medical school classes or as premeds, I've noticed a good bulk of them are recent African immigrants. I think this has to do with a few things.
1) Recent immigrants had to have had the resources to get to America, so they probably have more resources than the average African American.
2) Immigrant mentality vs African American mentality.

I was talking to one of my premed friends who is from Nigeria about racism. He actually doesn't notice racism because he doesn't really know what to look for. Unless its blatant, he has no idea that he's being discriminated against. Consequently he doesn't expect to encounter racism, doesn't feel hindered because of his race, and doesn't have the same fear that others will reject/fail him because he's black. As an African American, about racism (and consequently how to recognize it) from the time I was a child. My parents were heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement and I've been told since I can remember, "As a black woman, you'll have to be better than everyone else just to be considered equal." To some degree, it's stifling to know that the rest of society thinks you're inferior because of your race's history.

Also, I think African Immigrants have a stronger cultural identity. One of the most injurious aspects of slavery's legacy is that it robbed Blacks of their cultural identity. I, much like most blacks, can't tell you where in Africa my ancestors originated. I don't know what they ate, what religion they had, what songs they sang, what holidays they celebrated, or how they identified themselves. Consequently, I eat "soul food" (the worst cuts of the pig, toughest of the veggies, etc) because that's what slaves ate. I am Christian because slave masters converted their slaves to Christianity. I sing slave spirituals at church. I celebrate June Teenth (day slaves were freed in Texas). I identify with a struggle, because that's all blacks have known in this country. In this way, every African American carries with him the historical identity of the slaves. I think this alone generates an inferiority complex.

I think that a lot of what you're saying is true, but I have kind of a different take on them not noticing racism unless its blatant. I think that a lot of African Americans read way too much into situations... If a white person dislikes them, it's because they're black... If they didn't get the job or the grade they were looking for, it's because they're black.... If someone is giving them a strange look, it's because they're black... I'm not saying that this is always the case, and I certainly don't mean to imply that there aren't real instances of discrimination. But I think part of the reason that Africans succeed so well is because of their attitudes...

 

[infiniti]

I don't want to speak for the whole continent, but Africans generally see education as the only way to better their lives. Good education is some part of Africa (for the rich folks) can even be seen as a fashion statement. If you are rich and influential, then you are expected to send your kids to some of the most prestigious and respected universities overseas.

For the poor ones, it is obvious that the only way to move up in the society is to get good education. Some people will sell their souls just to have the priviledge of going to school. It is for this reason that many African immigrants will jump on any opportunity to get a good education.

I don't agree that Africans in the U.S generally have more resource than African American. The contrary is actually more likely to be true for new immigrants.

As you said, a good chunk of "blacks" in medicine or science are Africans because in most African countries, you are expected to go to school to become 1)doctor 2) lawyer 3)Business man/woman and to a lesser degree, an engineer. The vast majority of Africans studying anywhere would be doing one of the four above.

As the children of immigrants, I do have to say that the concept of race was non existent to me till I came to the U.S. The term "black", "white", "African American" and such were just some things I had to learn about. Although colonism had its effect on Africa, it is not generally considered to be a vital part of our lives (Generally speaking). In all my years growing up in Africa, I never really heard anything about Slavery and such.

I guess this made it quite easy to relate to anyone regardless of race. I learned most of what I know about racism in college. This is lame but true.

 

[OddNath]

I think that a lot of what you're saying is true, but I have kind of a different take on them not noticing racism unless its blatant. I think that a lot of African Americans read way too much into situations... If a white person dislikes them, it's because they're black... If they didn't get the job or the grade they were looking for, it's because they're black.... If someone is giving them a strange look, it's because they're black... I'm not saying that this is always the case, and I certainly don't mean to imply that there aren't real instances of discrimination. But I think part of the reason that Africans succeed so well is because of their attitudes...

I've seen this with Asian Americans too (and boy does it bug me). Anyone can have a bad attitude

 

[blkprl]

This made me think of another trend I've noticed: Of the black men (and women to a certain extent) I've encountered in medical school classes or as premeds, I've noticed a good bulk of them are recent African immigrants. I think this has to do with a few things.
1) Recent immigrants had to have had the resources to get to America, so they probably have more resources than the average African American.
2) Immigrant mentality vs African American mentality.

I was talking to one of my premed friends who is from Nigeria about racism. He actually doesn't notice racism because he doesn't really know what to look for. Unless its blatant, he has no idea that he's being discriminated against. Consequently he doesn't expect to encounter racism, doesn't feel hindered because of his race, and doesn't have the same fear that others will reject/fail him because he's black. As an African American, about racism (and consequently how to recognize it) from the time I was a child. My parents were heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement and I've been told since I can remember, "As a black woman, you'll have to be better than everyone else just to be considered equal." To some degree, it's stifling to know that the rest of society thinks you're inferior because of your race's history.

Also, I think African Immigrants have a stronger cultural identity. One of the most injurious aspects of slavery's legacy is that it robbed Blacks of their cultural identity. I, much like most blacks, can't tell you where in Africa my ancestors originated. I don't know what they ate, what religion they had, what songs they sang, what holidays they celebrated, or how they identified themselves. Consequently, I eat "soul food" (the worst cuts of the pig, toughest of the veggies, etc) because that's what slaves ate. I am Christian because slave masters converted their slaves to Christianity. I sing slave spirituals at church. I celebrate June Teenth (day slaves were freed in Texas). I identify with a struggle, because that's all blacks have known in this country. In this way, every African American carries with him the historical identity of the slaves. I think this alone generates an inferiority complex.

You are the first african-american that I met or heard, who has actually openly admitted this.

This discussion is much deeper and multifaceted than it appears but I guess I will give my point of view

Contrary to what you think, most africans that come here are poor, have to deal with immigration problems, language barriers (if they are from non-english speaking country), have borrowed money to come to America and have to support their families back home as well as support themselves in America.
There are a select few whose families are affluent enough to send them here for school and those are mostly the ones who might encounter in the higher academic realms (this is a grossly exagerrated statement of course) and hence that's why you perceive the "Coming to America" notion.

Like your nigerian friend, I won't recognize racism even if it hit me on the head, though I am not denying that it exits. The difference between a lot of african americans and africans is that, we (africans) don't let what some racist pig say define who we are and the reason why we left our families behind (in Africa) to come to America to get our piece of the american dream; which pertains to the cultural identity issue that you alluded to.

Anyway, as I said before, this is a profound issue .........

so where were we? oh URMs in medicine...RIGHT

 

[beefballs]

I think that a lot of what you're saying is true, but I have kind of a different take on them not noticing racism unless its blatant. I think that a lot of African Americans read way too much into situations... If a white person dislikes them, it's because they're black... If they didn't get the job or the grade they were looking for, it's because they're black.... If someone is giving them a strange look, it's because they're black... I'm not saying that this is always the case, and I certainly don't mean to imply that there aren't real instances of discrimination. But I think part of the reason that Africans succeed so well is because of their attitudes...

I agree with this, and I think that racism is accused way too often ( re the rep. McKinney thing), what happens is that it becomes like the boy crying wolf, so then when real racism takes place people don't take it as seriously as they should. Sometimes a person is just an a$$hole, race aside.

not attempting to offend, nor am I arguing that racism doesn't exist. I only posted this to express my honest opinion and not to hurt feelings-open discourse is what will help America move more towards a nation of one.

 

[bgtati]

Hopkins is *very* diverse. I have had the opportunity to interact with people from many different ethnicities and backgrounds. I think it's great!!!

what does you'r screen name mean? does it have ne thing to do with a minority group in AFGH?

 

[infiniti]

Your story reminds me of my trip to Atlanta. I met up some friends in Virginia and we decided to drive up to Emory University (to meet some other friends). we were in South Carolina when a police officer pulled us over and asked for registration and all that jazz. My friends (African Americans) in the car were so afraid, you could see one of them literally shaking. The other one was basically praying for protection. I was so shocked and couldn't understand why they were so afraid. I thought "maybe they have drugs on them " but immediately tossed the idea because I know they don't really do that sort of thing.

I stepped out of the car, chatted with the cop (a white guy) and he ended up telling me where I can get some really good food. When the cops left, my friends screamed and told me I could have gotten us killed. I told them cops are the good guys and we don't have to worry because we haven't done anything. They called me naive and we basically argued about the topic all th e way to Atlanta.

While I don't think I would ever be able to experience racism to the same extent some of my friends would, the argument made me really interested in racism and other forms of discrimination. I spent a decent portion of my college career learning about these issues.

In my experience African Americans aren't the only ones that are sensitive to race. A lot of Americans are just sensitive to the issue and each group has their own unique way of manisfesting such sensitivities.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

I agree with this, and I think that racism is accused way too often ( re the rep. McKinney thing), what happens is that it becomes like the boy crying wolf, so then when real racism takes place people don't take it as seriously as they should. Sometimes a person is just an a$$hole, race aside.

not attempting to offend, nor am I arguing that racism doesn't exist. I only posted this to express my honest opinion and not to hurt feelings-open discourse is what will help America move more towards a nation of one.

as an african-american male I understand what you're saying, and I can see why a lot of white people may feel the same way.

But from my personal experience race is something that I think about all of the time. How frequently do you enter an lecture hall of 60+ people, or begin rounds with the team and immediately realize that you are the only person of your race anywhere in sight? Or that the only people with your skin color are one or two patients on your service and the janitorial staff? That causes me to think about race a lot.

There are times that stuff happens to me and I honestly don't know if it's cuz I'm a black male or not. Like a security gaurd stopping me in the hospital at 5 am and asking for my ID-badge. There may be a lot of people in this area why, am I the one to get stopped? Who comes to the hospital at 5am unless they have to be there?

On one occassion I thought that my team was giving me the hardest - most non-med student cases. "This is a IV drug using, HIV+, Hep C +, homeless male, with elevated liver enzymes; sounds like a great patient for you Lucky" I'm like what the hell do you mean by that? Why is this a great patient for me specifically. Scenarios like this happened repeatedly while I was on that team, I can't say it's for sure their bias but the thought did come to my mind. I just thought to my self "It's okay, I'll just treat these patients the best that I can, and they'll get better care from me than any other person on my team."

It can really hurt sometimes, because I don't know how other people see me. I know that I deserve to be where I am just as much as any one else but I know in my heart that there are people I interact with that think of me as a monkey. But racism is something I grew-up experiencing, it is part of how I see world.

As for affirmative action causing people to view me as less qualified. I'd rather be in medical school having people think of me as less qualified and have the opportunity to prove myself, than there being no AA and not having that opportunity at all.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

I don't want to speak for the whole continent, but Africans generally see education as the only way to better their lives. Good education is some part of Africa (for the rich folks) can even be seen as a fashion statement. If you are rich and influential, then you are expected to send your kids to some of the most prestigious and respected universities overseas.

For the poor ones, it is obvious that the only way to move up in the society is to get good education. Some people will sell their souls just to have the priviledge of going to school. It is for this reason that many African immigrants will jump on any opportunity to get a good education.

I don't agree that Africans in the U.S generally have more resource than African American. The contrary is actually more likely to be true for new immigrants.

As you said, a good chunk of "blacks" in medicine or science are Africans because in most African countries, you are expected to go to school to become 1)doctor 2) lawyer 3)Business man/woman and to a lesser degree, an engineer. The vast majority of Africans studying anywhere would be doing one of the four above.

As the children of immigrants, I do have to say that the concept of race was non existent to me till I came to the U.S. The term "black", "white", "African American" and such were just some things I had to learn about. Although colonism had its effect on Africa, it is not generally considered to be a vital part of our lives (Generally speaking). In all my years growing up in Africa, I never really heard anything about Slavery and such.

I guess this made it quite easy to relate to anyone regardless of race. I learned most of what I know about racism in college. This is lame but true.

From the US Census data it seems that African Immigrants are more financially sound than African Americans. The median household income for African immigrants is $41,196 as compared to $33,650 for African Americans. Educational attainment is higher for African Immigrants also: 86.4% of African Immigrants have a highschool diploma and 42.8% have a BS or higher. Compare this to the 80.6% of blacks with diplomas and 17.6% of blacks who achieve a BS or higher.

 

[infiniti]

From the US Census data it seems that African Immigrants are more financially sound than African Americans. The median household income for African immigrants is $41,196 as compared to $33,650 for African Americans. Educational attainment is higher for African Immigrants also: 86.4% of African Immigrants have a highschool diploma and 42.8% have a BS or higher. Compare this to the 80.6% of blacks with diplomas and 17.6% of blacks who achieve a BS or higher.

Yeah! My post referred to new African immigrants (see above). A lot of African immigrants start out with much lower income and then go up after finishing school or getting a job with the degree they already have. The median income level doesn't really tell much about the starting point. I agree that Africans that have been in the U.S for a few years are generally more financially sound.

 

[blkprl]

From the US Census data it seems that African Immigrants are more financially sound than African Americans. The median household income for African immigrants is $41,196 as compared to $33,650 for African Americans. Educational attainment is higher for African Immigrants also: 86.4% of African Immigrants have a highschool diploma and 42.8% have a BS or higher. Compare this to the 80.6% of blacks with diplomas and 17.6% of blacks who achieve a BS or higher.

well for one, immigrants have to show the US consulates in their respective countries that they will not become a burden on the US social/welfare system and generally a degree or trade is needed to obtain an immigrant visa...

those are interesting statistics...thanks for the link

 

[blkprl]

as an african-american male I understand what you're saying, and I can see why a lot of white people may feel the same way.

But from my personal experience race is something that I think about all of the time. How frequently do you enter an lecture hall of 60+ people, or begin rounds with the team and immediately realize that you are the only person of your race anywhere in sight? Or that the only people with your skin color are one or two patients on your service and the janitorial staff? That causes me to think about race a lot.

There are times that stuff happens to me and I honestly don't know if it's cuz I'm a black male or not. Like a security gaurd stopping me in the hospital at 5 am and asking for my ID-badge. There may be a lot of people in this area why, am I the one to get stopped? Who comes to the hospital at 5am unless they have to be there?

On one occassion I thought that my team was giving me the hardest - most non-med student cases. "This is a IV drug using, HIV+, Hep C +, homeless male, with elevated liver enzymes; sounds like a great patient for you Lucky" I'm like what the hell do you mean by that? Why is this a great patient for me specifically. Scenarios like this happened repeatedly while I was on that team, I can't say it's for sure their bias but the thought did come to my mind. I just thought to my self "It's okay, I'll just treat these patients the best that I can, and they'll get better care from me than any other person on my team."

It can really hurt sometimes, because I don't know how other people see me. I know that I deserve to be where I am just as much as any one else but I know in my heart that there are people I interact with that think of me as a monkey. But racism is something I grew-up experiencing, it is part of how I see world.

As for affirmative action causing people to view me as less qualified. I'd rather be in medical school having people think of me as less qualified and have the opportunity to prove myself, than there being no AA and not having that opportunity at all.

I think most blacks in higher levels of education (sometimes not so high though) especially in science and engineering will have the experieince of being mistaken for the auxillary support at the institution they work or attend school. I had the same experience working at a national lab, whenever I didn't have my lab coat on, visitors in my building would mistake me for non-scientific staff. That didn't make me think any less of myself, I just answered their question and went about my business; and made sure I had my lab coat on the next time.....

There were times when my boss was hard on me, I didn't think it was because I am black I just figured he was mean-spirited human being in general. I made sure that he didn't have much to "trip" about the next time and in so doing got better at my research...I suppose that's were the whole concept of self identity that some people have mentioned in their post comes from.

...

 

[BlondeCookie]

For all the black students, doesn't it irritate you when a white student speaks on behalf of yourself and your entire race? For example, if a white person said, "the reason why black students get all offended is because..."

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Yeah! My post referred to new African immigrants (see above). A lot of African immigrants start out with much lower income and then go up after finishing school or getting a job with the degree they already have. The median income level doesn't really tell much about the starting point. I agree that Africans that have been in the U.S for a few years are generally more financially sound.

Since it is difficult to illegally immigrate to the US from Africa, most African immigrants have to be screened by INS before they are admitted to this country. Consequently, only the people who INS finds attractive candidates are naturalized. If I've learned anything from Katrina it's that the US doesn't particularly want poor people--especially not poor blacks. INS selects for more wealthy immigrants. Look at this quote from the center for Immigration studies:

* Higher levels of education correspond to higher rates of naturalization;
* Higher-skill occupations correspond to higher rates of naturalization;
* Higher household income corresponds to higher rates of naturalization;
* Those receiving public assistance are less likely to become citizens than those who are not receiving public assistance;
* Immigrants living in married-couple households are more likely to become Americans than those in single-parent households;
* Immigrants who speak English well are more likely to be citizens – but more than one-quarter of those who speak English poorly or not at all were naturalized citizens;
* Despite narrowing of these differences over time, they do not disappear.

It doesn't make sense that recent African immigrants are poor, but are able to work their way up to a higher median income and higher academic achievements than most Americans (minority or not) in just a few years.

 

[Airzonk]

This made me think of another trend I've noticed: Of the black men (and women to a certain extent) I've encountered in medical school classes or as premeds, I've noticed a good bulk of them are recent African immigrants. I think this has to do with a few things.
1) Recent immigrants had to have had the resources to get to America, so they probably have more resources than the average African American.
2) Immigrant mentality vs African American mentality.

I was talking to one of my premed friends who is from Nigeria about racism. He actually doesn't notice racism because he doesn't really know what to look for. Unless its blatant, he has no idea that he's being discriminated against. Consequently he doesn't expect to encounter racism, doesn't feel hindered because of his race, and doesn't have the same fear that others will reject/fail him because he's black. As an African American, about racism (and consequently how to recognize it) from the time I was a child. My parents were heavily involved in the Civil Rights movement and I've been told since I can remember, "As a black woman, you'll have to be better than everyone else just to be considered equal." To some degree, it's stifling to know that the rest of society thinks you're inferior because of your race's history.

Also, I think African Immigrants have a stronger cultural identity. One of the most injurious aspects of slavery's legacy is that it robbed Blacks of their cultural identity. I, much like most blacks, can't tell you where in Africa my ancestors originated. I don't know what they ate, what religion they had, what songs they sang, what holidays they celebrated, or how they identified themselves. Consequently, I eat "soul food" (the worst cuts of the pig, toughest of the veggies, etc) because that's what slaves ate. I am Christian because slave masters converted their slaves to Christianity. I sing slave spirituals at church. I celebrate June Teenth (day slaves were freed in Texas). I identify with a struggle, because that's all blacks have known in this country. In this way, every African American carries with him the historical identity of the slaves. I think this alone generates an inferiority complex.

Wow. Truly educating post. Thank you.

 

[THP]

But from my personal experience race is something that I think about all of the time. How frequently do you enter an lecture hall of 60+ people, or begin rounds with the team and immediately realize that you are the only person of your race anywhere in sight? Or that the only people with your skin color are one or two patients on your service and the janitorial staff? That causes me to think about race a lot.
.

Man, the other day I was playing intramural basketball and I was the only white guy on the court (for either team). Damn I suck at basketball.

All kidding aside, I think the difference in perspectives of recent african immigrants from african americans is quite interesting and something I knew nothing about. It just goes to show, those who are motivated enough to sacrifice their familiar lives and LEGALLY immigrate to the US tend to be fantastic citizens.

 

[infiniti]

Since it is difficult to illegally immigrate to the US from Africa, most African immigrants have to be screened by INS before they are admitted to this country. Consequently, only the people who INS finds attractive candidates are naturalized. If I've learned anything from Katrina it's that the US doesn't particularly want poor people--especially not poor blacks. INS selects for more wealthy immigrants. Look at this quote from the center for Immigration studies:



It doesn't make sense that recent African immigrants are poor, but are able to work their way up to a higher median income and higher academic achievements than most Americans (minority or not) in just a few years.

Although majority were educated in Africa, it usually takes time to find suitable jobs in America. If you live in any of the big cities and take cabs often, chances are you 've had an African (more likely a Nigerian) driver. What people don't know is that these pepole often have their masters or PhD. They do whatever jobs they can find before they land their desired job.

Such case is not isolated but actually quite common amongst African immigrants (or maybe even immigrants in general). My aunt worked in a hospital as a CNA for two years. Keep in mind that she was a surgeon before coming to the U.S. She needed money to take care of her family while studying for her licensing exams (her husband was also a professor who drove cabs for a while). She killed her exam, did some sort of training and is now heading one of the departments. Her husband is also a full time professor at a local university. As you can imagine, their annual income went though some major reconstructive surgery.

Most African immigrants can tell you a few people going through similar situations.

Amount of education is also directly proportional to income. I am sure the income is higher if you consider African immigrants that have been here for a couple of years alone.

If you think most African immigrants are somehow rich enough to have 40k without working their asses for it , then you are mistaking. Take Nigeria (whose currency is by far one of the best in Africa) for example. Having 40K is like having 6,000,000 Naira. Not many people can make such a claim. Think about the actual amount of African immigrants and then it becomes obvious that all of them don't have 40k in disposable income.

You actually didn't say they had 40K in disposable income, but it is sort of assumed (in your post) that they somehow brought (or had) some of the money with them. I can assure you that this is very very unlikely. If you take into account the majority of African countries, $40K would be approaching 60 million. This (or fractions of it) is not the sort of money many immigrants would have access to. If they did, they wouldn't leave Africa to begin with.

Most African immigrants (not talking about their children) come here for the opportunities. For them it is all about making the money in America and returning home to enjoy it. The vast majority of rich Africans are living large and would only come here or europe to shop for fancy stuff.

 

[MrSosa]

Man, the other day I was playing intramural basketball and I was the only white guy on the court (for either team). Damn I suck at basketball.

All kidding aside, I think the difference in perspectives of recent african immigrants from african americans is quite interesting and something I knew nothing about. It just goes to show, those who are motivated enough to sacrifice their familiar lives and LEGALLY immigrate to the US tend to be fantastic citizens.

Are you trying to say something about "illegal" immigrants?

 

[Saluki]

Are you trying to say something about "illegal" immigrants?

Please don't try to start a fight-- the thread has been so happy for several pages...

 

[BlahtoThis]

I think the difference with African immigrants from people who already live here is the same difference that seems to exist amongst Asian immigrants and their American-bred counterparts. The fact is that when you're coming from a place far off but that isn't as well off as the United States. You have to be a lot more driven to have to go through the hurdles involved in trying to get to the US. It's much harder to come here as an illegal immigrant from an ocean away (than from Latin/South America), and even if you do, you had to be pretty driven or had the connections to accomplish it. The people who get here with Visa's, etc. are actually kind of selected to come here so there is some selection bias for people who are more driven.

On the flip side, people in the US aren't struggling to "achieve the American dream." We tend to be a bit spoiled and expect many of the things we have. I wonder how educational achievement, etc. would differ among immigrants who are 3+ generations separated from their homelands and those whose families are newly immigrated. The problem is again there may be more of a history of educational achievement in these families as their grandparents, etc. may have worked harder to try and get here and those values may have been pretty deeply instilled.

Just a thought.

 

[beefballs]

as an african-american male I understand what you're saying, and I can see why a lot of white people may feel the same way.

But from my personal experience race is something that I think about all of the time. How frequently do you enter an lecture hall of 60+ people, or begin rounds with the team and immediately realize that you are the only person of your race anywhere in sight? Or that the only people with your skin color are one or two patients on your service and the janitorial staff? That causes me to think about race a lot.
There are times that stuff happens to me and I honestly don't know if it's cuz I'm a black male or not. Like a security gaurd stopping me in the hospital at 5 am and asking for my ID-badge. There may be a lot of people in this area why, am I the one to get stopped? Who comes to the hospital at 5am unless they have to be there?

It can really hurt sometimes, because I don't know how other people see me. I know that I deserve to be where I am just as much as any one else but I know in my heart that there are people I interact with that think of me as a monkey. But racism is something I grew-up experiencing, it is part of how I see world.

As for affirmative action causing people to view me as less qualified. I'd rather be in medical school having people think of me as less qualified and have the opportunity to prove myself, than there being no AA and not having that opportunity at all.[/QUOTE]

1st-I can't really relate to you on this, but I would like to hope there are more people who may register your skin color at first but don't pay it any more than a casual observance

2nd-You are correct but how do you differentiate between the ones that think that and the ones that don 't? (I am asking for my own interest)

3rd-YEah no kidding, and how you got in doesn't matter nearly as much as what you accomplish. I don't fault the individual who benefits from AA-I would have utilized it had it applied to me, nor did the people who benefit from the program institute it.-I always want to tell people who take anti-AA sentiment as a personal or racial attack, when the issues I have are with the program-NOT THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BENEFITS-Everybody scraps for their opportunities, only to have to scrap harder for the next one, so when I may raise an issue with AA it doesn't have to do with an individual at all. There are more qualified individuals than spots bottom line. There are two reasons I oppose but one of them is that I feel it causes needless racial friction. This is my opinion but how can a program be created to combat racism when it, by definition is racist. ( I am not saying that reverse racism is legit, or that blacks weren't sh$t on by this country, I am talking only in direct literal interpretation) This program seems to make middle class whites furious b/c they are the ones that go to fairly integrated schools and work at jobs side by side with blacks, and see it as a swipe at them, in turn it is easily manipulated to fuel a simmering undercurrent of racism.(also the whites that support it seem to be the wealthy who already have advantages) On a side note my views on this derived from my time in the military where I shared living spaces, meals, boozing on time off, with all races-maybe it was the camraderie or the proximal living space but it was true we didn't think in terms of black and white. Thanks for the honest answer and again, I only raise isssues & ask questions b/c I would like to be a more competent/informed person

 

[skypilot]

NYMC is not in New York City...

If you cannot maintain a diverse student body in one of the suburbs of New York City then something is really wrong.

 

[BlahtoThis]

as an african-american male I understand what you're saying, and I can see why a lot of white people may feel the same way.

But from my personal experience race is something that I think about all of the time. How frequently do you enter an lecture hall of 60+ people, or begin rounds with the team and immediately realize that you are the only person of your race anywhere in sight? Or that the only people with your skin color are one or two patients on your service and the janitorial staff? That causes me to think about race a lot.

There are times that stuff happens to me and I honestly don't know if it's cuz I'm a black male or not. Like a security gaurd stopping me in the hospital at 5 am and asking for my ID-badge. There may be a lot of people in this area why, am I the one to get stopped? Who comes to the hospital at 5am unless they have to be there?

On one occassion I thought that my team was giving me the hardest - most non-med student cases. "This is a IV drug using, HIV+, Hep C +, homeless male, with elevated liver enzymes; sounds like a great patient for you Lucky" I'm like what the hell do you mean by that? Why is this a great patient for me specifically. Scenarios like this happened repeatedly while I was on that team, I can't say it's for sure their bias but the thought did come to my mind. I just thought to my self "It's okay, I'll just treat these patients the best that I can, and they'll get better care from me than any other person on my team."

It can really hurt sometimes, because I don't know how other people see me. I know that I deserve to be where I am just as much as any one else but I know in my heart that there are people I interact with that think of me as a monkey. But racism is something I grew-up experiencing, it is part of how I see world.

As for affirmative action causing people to view me as less qualified. I'd rather be in medical school having people think of me as less qualified and have the opportunity to prove myself, than there being no AA and not having that opportunity at all.

I can see a lot of what you're saying, but I think a lot has to do with personal reaction. I'm coming from a different set of experiences. I'm an Indian kid who grew up in Germany before coming here. I was the only non-white kid in my school and most of the other kids I saw who weren't white were not professionals and didn't have "high positions" in the society I saw around me. I did experience racism both there and in the US and I know the Indian, Asian, hispanic, black, etc. friends I have all have experienced racism in the US. For whatever reason, this did not impact on my perception of myself or my reactions to things that may be "borderline" like your experiences on the wards (where I feel perception may play a large part). I think a lot has to do with personal reaction and perception, and it's partly a cultural/value thing in terms of how one reacts. I've been stopped by police for no reason I could make out, heard approximately equal amounts of racist comments from black and white people over the years, and faced a situation where my parents didn't have much money at all when they came to the US and had to work damn hard to get into a better socioeconomic position. But I honestly never reacted harshly to any of this stuff or really cared. I just work the hardest I can for myself, and I can't honestly say this will change no matter what position I get in society or how much or little people respect me.

The other thing is that I agree whole-heartedly with a previous poster about perceptions of affirmative action versus the people who benefit from it. I think the people who may benefit from affirmative action inadvertently become targets of reaction against a policy that many people perceive as wrong. I also agree that it's human nature to capitalize on a beneficial situation if you have the opportunity. Many people would say you'd be stupid not to capitalize as long as you're not breaking any laws. Life would be better if people like the AAMC didn't publish average numbers according to race because that just serves to point out apparent differences and that there is a significant difference. With regards to a previous poster mentioning that the difference is because there are largely African American medical schools, unless >50% of African American doctors attend these institutions, it can't fully explain the numbers, and it doesn't for other minorities with universally lower averages either.

Stereotypes are inevitable. I've been stereotyped against. Any and everybody will be stereotyped by everybody else, even by people of the same race. But many stereotypes are based in what society lets us see of that race. It's human nature to categorize and to make assumptions based on your personal experience (whether that which is shown to you or that which you see/choose to see). You must ultimately be the change that you wish to see, but that's going to arise in not just how well you do for yourself but the attitude you keep while doing it. If you have the attitude of "screw this, I'm going to show you all how good I am because you all don't think I'm good enough", it will just make you a bitter old man who will send the same message to his kids (ie, that these white and other people just don't think you're good enough). I know some people in my school who feel like this, and honestly I've seen it become more and more pronounced among them as medical school has gone on while the people who experienced the same adversity but were otherwise similar in race, background, etc. and just worked their hardest for themselves generally didn't have much to complain about (even when they were on the same team as these other people). The only difference is the former people tended to be more vocal and get more involved in social advocacy than the latter. There are a LOT of situations you'll experience in life where you can be suspect about the intentions or the thoughts of other people. There comes a point where this suspicion becomes more of a hindrance to you and to perceptions of you as it can easily become a distortion of reality (again speaking from experience with people).

 

[THP]

Are you trying to say something about "illegal" immigrants?

Of course, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[TheCat]

Of course, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

OMG I think illegals are the lowest of the low scum-I almost vomited when I saw those rallys this week-with thousands of illegal immigrants fighting for rights??? what rights-your illegal! makes my stomach turn-go back to your country

 

[Saluki]

OMG I think illegals are the lowest of the low scum-I almost vomited when I saw those rallys this week-with thousands of illegal immigrants fighting for rights??? what rights-your illegal! makes my stomach turn-go back to your country

And the thread hijacking has occurred...

 

[SLPI]

OMG I think illegals are the lowest of the low scum-I almost vomited when I saw those rallys this week-with thousands of illegal immigrants fighting for rights??? what rights-your illegal! makes my stomach turn-go back to your country

Wow, scum. Nice words there a#$hole. Yes there are illegal but why do you consider them subhuman. I am not nor do i know anyone who is an illegal immmigrant but people like you make my stomach turn.

 

[Saluki]

Wow, scum. Nice words there a#$hole. Yes there are illegal but why do you consider them subhuman. I am not nor do i know anyone who is an illegal immmigrant but people like you make my stomach turn.

I thought he was being sarcastic, but maybe I was wrong....

 

[MrSosa]

I thought he was being sarcastic, but maybe I was wrong....

I didn't mean to instigate a thread hijacking, but I still think immigrants ("illegal" or not) and their children belong in this thread too. That first comment about illegal immigrants reminds me of whenever someone says "oh but you're not like the others." Many times people who say things like that are naive. But many times it also really just exposes how they truly feel. Those are the kind of things minorities pick up on, that some may not be aware of. But anyway, I don't know how many medical students are children or grandchildren of illegal immigrants, but the number will probably (hopefully) increase. Immigrants will continue to be a part of this country. It's sad that people always want to marginalize other groups.

TheCat, you're an idiot and nobody thinks you're funny.

 

[Saluki]

I didn't mean to instigate a thread hijacking, but I still think immigrants ("illegal" or not) and their children belong in this thread too. That first comment about illegal immigrants reminds me of whenever someone says "oh but you're not like the others." Many times people who say things like that are naive. But many times it also really just exposes how they truly feel. Those are the kind of things minorities pick up on, that some may not be aware of. But anyway, I don't know how many medical students are children or grandchildren of illegal immigrants, but the number will probably (hopefully) increase. Immigrants will continue to be a part of this country. It's sad that people always want to marginalize other groups.

TheCat, you're an idiot and nobody thinks you're funny.

Well, immigrants only fit in the URM category if they're Hispanic But I don't think illegal immigrants are subhuman scum if that makes you feel better

Groups of immigrants have been marginalized again and again- the Irish, the Chinese, etc. But I am opposed to illegal immigration, because it's "illegal." I also don't approve of people speeding or using marijuana for medicinal purposes; regardless of whether on a purely moral level those things are right it's still wrong to break the law. I'm not saying that I don't care about illegal immigrants or their rights, but there is a difference between the person who suffers through the process of obtaining the legal documents to immigrate and the one who sneaks over the border....

But I'd rather get the thread back to URMs in med school...

 

[TheCat]

Not trying to be funny but you obivously dont live in california like i do or see many illegals to know that the ERs here in cali have turned into primary care places for immigrants, sucking time away from peple who need urgen care. The floors of hospitals are filled with illegals suckin out millions for free dialysis, free meds, free surgeries-and when told that they would be able to get all this care for free in mexico-they just laugh and say they would rather just get it done "free" here-what a joke-youll see one day when it screws over your pracitice-depends on where you live.
Honestly it is not the immigrants that bother me-My dad got rich using illegals to work for 3 bucks an hour-hey they work hard-but when they start marching for rights and taking their argument to dc and tryin to legislate-the whole point of being illegal is you do NOT get a say in how the country is run-but these illegals are taking it a step further and now want a say in how our goverment legislates-like if you are going to come here illegally deal with the way the usa is or dont come is my point.
Not being funny i just hate illegals-I am an immigrant to the usa and my familyu spent 6 years tryin to get here the RIGHT way, legal way-why cant those stupid illegals go through the right motions-they should be shot at sight on the border-

 

[Saluki]

Not trying to be funny but you obivously dont live in california like i do or see many illegals to know that the ERs here in cali have turned into primary care places for immigrants, sucking time away from peple who need urgen care. The floors of hospitals are filled with illegals suckin out millions for free dialysis, free meds, free surgeries-and when told that they would be able to get all this care for free in mexico-they just laugh and say they would rather just get it done "free" here-what a joke-youll see one day when it screws over your pracitice-depends on where you live.
Honestly it is not the immigrants that bother me-My dad got rich using illegals to work for 3 bucks an hour-hey they work hard-but when they start marching for rights and taking their argument to dc and tryin to legislate-the whole point of being illegal is you do NOT get a say in how the country is run-but these illegals are taking it a step further and now want a say in how our goverment legislates-like if you are going to come here illegally deal with the way the usa is or dont come is my point.
Not being funny i just hate illegals-I am an immigrant to the usa and my familyu spent 6 years tryin to get here the RIGHT way, legal way-why cant those stupid illegals go through the right motions-they should be shot at sight on the border-

We don't give the death penalty out for rape, but you want to kill people for crossing the border illegally? I think illegal immigration is wrong, but I think that's kind of an extreme solution....

 

[BlondeCookie]

Not trying to be funny but you obivously dont live in california like i do or see many illegals to know that the ERs here in cali have turned into primary care places for immigrants, sucking time away from peple who need urgen care. The floors of hospitals are filled with illegals suckin out millions for free dialysis, free meds, free surgeries-and when told that they would be able to get all this care for free in mexico-they just laugh and say they would rather just get it done "free" here-what a joke-youll see one day when it screws over your pracitice-depends on where you live.
Honestly it is not the immigrants that bother me-My dad got rich using illegals to work for 3 bucks an hour-hey they work hard-but when they start marching for rights and taking their argument to dc and tryin to legislate-the whole point of being illegal is you do NOT get a say in how the country is run-but these illegals are taking it a step further and now want a say in how our goverment legislates-like if you are going to come here illegally deal with the way the usa is or dont come is my point.
Not being funny i just hate illegals-I am an immigrant to the usa and my familyu spent 6 years tryin to get here the RIGHT way, legal way-why cant those stupid illegals go through the right motions-they should be shot at sight on the border-

You thinks blacks are inferior in intelligence to others. You hate immigrants. You crack jokes about gays. I'd say without a doubt. You are a complete BLEEPING _______.

 

[TheCat]

You thinks blacks are inferior in intelligence to others. You hate immigrants. You crack jokes about gays. I'd say without a doubt. You are a complete BLEEPING _______.

hahaha what a homo

 

[Saluki]

You thinks blacks are inferior in intelligence to others. You hate immigrants. You crack jokes about gays. I'd say without a doubt. You are a complete BLEEPING _______.

Let's play nice... I don't like what that guy is saying, but he's entitled to his opinions, however warped.... And calling names won't stop him from believing what he does

 

[TheCat]

Hey blondie-you said it not me. You explain then in a logical matter why 6 out of 7 people in the slow program are black? You explain how ALL 3 people who failed step 1 in my class were black. Hey this is objective data-you tell me then what to think-I am openminded-you tell me. Maybe black people dont function as well when they are out of their "hoods'

 

[MrSosa]

Not trying to be funny but you obivously dont live in california like i do or see many illegals to know that the ERs here in cali have turned into primary care places for immigrants, sucking time away from peple who need urgen care. The floors of hospitals are filled with illegals suckin out millions for free dialysis, free meds, free surgeries-and when told that they would be able to get all this care for free in mexico-they just laugh and say they would rather just get it done "free" here-what a joke-youll see one day when it screws over your pracitice-depends on where you live.
Honestly it is not the immigrants that bother me-My dad got rich using illegals to work for 3 bucks an hour-hey they work hard-but when they start marching for rights and taking their argument to dc and tryin to legislate-the whole point of being illegal is you do NOT get a say in how the country is run-but these illegals are taking it a step further and now want a say in how our goverment legislates-like if you are going to come here illegally deal with the way the usa is or dont come is my point.
Not being funny i just hate illegals-I am an immigrant to the usa and my familyu spent 6 years tryin to get here the RIGHT way, legal way-why cant those stupid illegals go through the right motions-they should be shot at sight on the border-

"It's not the immigrants that bother" you, yet you want them shot at the border. You admit that your family has exploited immigrants, but you still want them out. I bet you think you're special because your family waited to get here legally. Well mine did too, but I still don't think there is anything inherently wrong with crossing the border, it's just not "supposed" to be done. It doesn't make them bad people. But if you thought you could help your family better by doing that, you'd do it, anyone would. These people are risking their lives to get here, and people like you want to trivialize that and act as if they're coming here to exploit US. That's hilarious. I suppose we wouldn't be crossing into Mexico if they were better developed than us, because we're such upstanding, law-abiding citizens and all. How about Canada? I actually plan to help immigrants medically. I don't even want to think about how you'd treat them. Are you really going to be graduating from med school soon?

 

[BlahtoThis]

I think the cat has a lot of legitimate points about illegal immigrants, even if not always stated in the best way. Sure almost everybody in this country is technically illegally here, but we have a nation state in place with laws so as to keep a semblance of order. That order is maintained via taxes and other means. There is a right to vote given to citizens of this country because it is felt that they have vested a clear interest in how this country prospers by virtue of having become citizens (this is a crock, but it was part of the original thinking). Illegal immigrants tend not to care about this so much, but came here in order to escape a place they see as kind of sucky where they couldn't make as much money and didn't see as many opportunities. But you can't say you should respect that they were doing what was best for their families. That's like saying if I'm poor and I rob a fruit stand to give food to my family, that I shouldn't be punished.

I do believe illegal immigrants should be forced to pay taxes and be governed by the same laws as other people if they expect the same benefits. They should provide accounts of ALL of their earnings from their time living in the US, provide accounts of living situations, with fully allowed checks on all aspects of living (where are the kids and what are they doing, etc.) and forceful payment of all applicable taxes on all income earned with applicable interest. Also, they should be forced to take an English class. There is NO reason not to be able to speak English. My parents moved from India to Germany and learned German within 1-2 years well enough to live there. They and I learned English well enough to do quite well for ourselves within a year of being in the US. There is NO reason somebody living here for 20 years shouldn't be able to speak English. If they don't agree to all of this, there's a problem. I speak Spanish fluently, but when I'm in the room with a non-emergent patient who refuses to speak English, I speak in Spanish but then I force them to speak the English translation of the Spanish medical information, and I sit there until they do it and are able to answer my questions in English with regards to what their diagnosis is, etc. Man, do they get mad. Kind of fun though.

The harder aspect is healthcare since, as physicians, we can't judge somebody based on the merits of how much they "deserve" to be here or not. It's like a serial killer deserves a fair trial (though the current government would probably disagree), so all human beings deserve healthcare, especially for emergent situations. There should be penalties for misusing the system, especially if you're acting as a leech on the system, but I would rather help a well-meaning illegal immigrant who comes to the ER for a legitimate health issue than some idiot druggie looking for a pharmaceutical high. I think a better way would be making triage better and forcing people who are in the ER for their "regular check-up" wait until all cases that belong in the ER are seen, even people who come after. This would mean taking labs and stuff before they're allowed to enter, or doing a stat EKG on all the ever-present chest pain patients while in triage and basing the triage on <gasp> clinical evidence (I've seen hospitals operate this way, and it's great ... I've had to wait 7 hours when I went for something that I admit was pretty small, but it's worth it).

 

[Thundrstorm]

Hey blondie-you said it not me. You explain then in a logical matter why 6 out of 7 people in the slow program are black? You explain how ALL 3 people who failed step 1 in my class were black. Hey this is objective data-you tell me then what to think-I am openminded-you tell me. Maybe black people dont function as well when they are out of their "hoods'

You don't really think all black people are from "the hood," do you?

 

[Hard24Get]

Hey blondie-you said it not me. You explain then in a logical matter why 6 out of 7 people in the slow program are black? You explain how ALL 3 people who failed step 1 in my class were black. Hey this is objective data-you tell me then what to think-I am openminded-you tell me. Maybe black people dont function as well when they are out of their "hoods'

Hey, Cat, all the people I know who didn't pass step 1 were white, and the only person I know that had to repeat the first year was asian. Therefore, whites and asians don't function as well when they are out of the suburbs... We could keep going all night jumping to conclusions if we all based our thinking on these miniscule amounts of "objective data" and (especially in your case) limited knowledge. Sure, I could argue that the URMs you refer to were disadvantaged to begin with, etc, etc, but I think I'll just state the obvious - dumb comes in all colors, including yours . STOP making it about race!

I'd like to remind the rest of you that immigrants are not necessarily illegal or URMs, and that though immigrants from all countries are fabulous, being here illegally is well, illegal, and unfair to legal immigrants. On that point, TheCat, however uncouth he may be, is right. However, it is the companies willing to hire these people for unfair wages that are creating the situation - desperate people WILL do illegal things with enough incentive, so we should be discouraging illegal immigrants in at least a 2-pronged manner.

But back to the subject. Anyone have new comments or insights into experiences as or with URMs in medicine?

 

[MrSosa]

I'd like to remind the rest of you that immigrants are not necessarily illegal or URMs, and that though immigrants from all countries are fabulous, being here illegally is well, illegal, and unfair to legal immigrants. On that point, TheCat, however uncouth he may be, is right. However, it is the companies willing to hire these people for unfair wages that are creating the situation - desperate people WILL do illegal things with enough incentive, so we should be discouraging illegal immigrants in at least a 2-pronged manner.

But back to the subject. Anyone have new comments or insights into experiences as or with URMs in medicine?

IMO, URM designations are "dynamic," although of course they don't seem to change. I'm pretty sure the AAMC has changed their definition to allow for this. Children of illegal immgrants will represent an underrepresented population. Nobody needs to publish that somewhere for me to know that. Whatever you think about this issue, we have to accept the fact that immigrants will continue to be an important part of this country. And even if they were all suddenly considered legal tomorrow, they are still URM. I'm not trying to take anything away from the "traditional" URMs, I'm one of them, in more ways than one. But this kind of thing is what makes people automatically think URM=black whenever it's discussed, and that's just not a good thing.