Experiences as or with URMs at your school

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Panda Bear said:
No. You should stand up for the minority Doctors in your practice. If someone says, "I would prefer a White Doctor" you should say, politely, that every doctor in your practice is qualified to treat patients and if you don't like it we can refer you somewhere else.

You don't have to cater to other people's bigotry. I'm surpised you have to hear this from me.


I AM surprised (and happy) to hear that from you :cool: . Admirable, but do we say the same thing to people who want a minority or gay physician because they want to feel that the person has their best interests at heart and therefore would be more likely to disclose important information/submit to tests and exams? Also, if someone is truly sick but also truly racist, is that the time to force integration on them? You are going into EM - what if a patient is critically injured but gets very agitated by, I dunno, Greek people. Do you back off and let someone else care for them or force yourself on them? I personally would back off, for their sake.

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Hard24Get said:
I AM surprised (and happy) to hear that from you :cool: . Admirable, but do we say the same thing to people who want a minority or gay physician because they want to feel that the person has their best interests at heart and therefore would be more likely to disclose important information/submit to tests and exams? Also, if someone is truly sick but also truly racist, is that the time to force integration on them? You are going into EM - what if a patient is critically injured but gets very agitated by, I dunno, Greek people. Do you back off and let someone else care for them or force yourself on them? I personally would back off, for their sake.

Oh yeah. In an Emergency all bets are off. But we're talking about a normal clinical encounter.

Still, there is also an element of beggers not being choosers. You may want a product of Nazi eugenics as yer' doctor but I'm all you're getting today.

By the way, we Greeks are honorary white people. My brother was a frat borther in a notoriously racist fraternity who even discriminated against Italians (for crying out loud). Apparently, four out of five racists agree that Greek boys are all right.
 
i think this is a very good thread. Really educative and interesting. I am originally from nigeria and like some peopl have said earlier, there is a world of ignorance around. someone once asked me if africans live in houses and if yes, what kind of houses. i understood the fact that she was not trying to be mean, took my time and explained to her. Seriously i have met quite a few ignorant people (i go to ucla) and it's a challenge. you constantly have to continue to prove yourself to people. I have a free ride through undergrad and some people believe it's simply become i am a URM,fine it might amount to it but then, i can show you my GPA and other things to prove i deserve to be in the best places and i am not there because of the color of my skin.
 
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I have to ponder whether those that whine about URMs "stealing their spots" are those who are rather insecure about their own abilities, and perhaps simply couldn't cut it and need a scapegoat. I have heard comments similar to this throughout my educational years. My responses range from pity, to mild annoyance, to sheer rage. Even the seemingly innocent comments such as "You got that MCAT score, you must be part Asian," that may be perceived as humorous to some who are obscenely foolish, are outrageously insulting and ignorant. The simple fact is that many unenlightened and insecure people assume, based on another individual's ethnicity, that they are automatically less qualified- period. I have heard this from members of my own class- a class with 16 black students, 4 of whom were nominated for AOA (yes, that is 25%), a class in which the average Step I score for black students was 239 (indeed several points higher than the overall mean). Furthermore, if we want to go back to admission stats, our mean MCAT score was 0.9 ABOVE, not below, the overall class average. There are also the otherwise intelligent classmates who feel it necessary to use slang and improper grammar when they converse with us, completely oblivious to the fact that, even as blacks, we managed to master the appropriate use of the English language. ( My, how did I manage 5s on those Lit and Comp APs in high school? What a miracle!) I could go on so much longer, but I won't. My advice, for those of you willing to be a bit open-minded, is to take time to acknowledge the possibility that an "URM" might actually know what they are doing, and perhaps, be doing it better than you, before you jump to erroneous conclusions without hard evidence about the individual WITH WHOM YOU ARE INTERACTING. He or she may give you a new perspective, and you might even learn something along the way. After all, remember what happens when you ASSume. :)
 
Hard24Get said:
I AM surprised (and happy) to hear that from you :cool: . Admirable, but do we say the same thing to people who want a minority or gay physician because they want to feel that the person has their best interests at heart and therefore would be more likely to disclose important information/submit to tests and exams? Also, if someone is truly sick but also truly racist, is that the time to force integration on them? You are going into EM - what if a patient is critically injured but gets very agitated by, I dunno, Greek people. Do you back off and let someone else care for them or force yourself on them? I personally would back off, for their sake.
I say let them be agitated. They want medical care? They'll get it: from whoever is available. I saw a client pull this crap with one of my coworkers at a law firm last year... refused to meet with a black case manager. I don't believe in giving in to that kind of nonsense, whether it's a medical emergency or not.
 
Nicely said!



gasgirl0610 said:
I have to ponder whether those that whine about URMs "stealing their spots" are those who are rather insecure about their own abilities, and perhaps simply couldn't cut it and need a scapegoat. I have heard comments similar to this throughout my educational years. My responses range from pity, to mild annoyance, to sheer rage. Even the seemingly innocent comments such as "You got that MCAT score, you must be part Asian," that may be perceived as humorous to some who are obscenely foolish, are outrageously insulting and ignorant. The simple fact is that many unenlightened and insecure people assume, based on another individual's ethnicity, that they are automatically less qualified- period. I have heard this from members of my own class- a class with 16 black students, 4 of whom were nominated for AOA (yes, that is 25%), a class in which the average Step I score for black students was 239 (indeed several points higher than the overall mean). Furthermore, if we want to go back to admission stats, our mean MCAT score was 0.9 ABOVE, not below, the overall class average. There are also the otherwise intelligent classmates who feel it necessary to use slang and improper grammar when they converse with us, completely oblivious to the fact that, even as blacks, we managed to master the appropriate use of the English language. ( My, how did I manage 5s on those Lit and Comp APs in high school? What a miracle!) I could go on so much longer, but I won't. My advice, for those of you willing to be a bit open-minded, is to take time to acknowledge the possibility that an "URM" might actually know what they are doing, and perhaps, be doing it better than you, before you jump to erroneous conclusions without hard evidence about the individual WITH WHOM YOU ARE INTERACTING. He or she may give you a new perspective, and you might even learn something along the way. After all, remember what happens when you ASSume. :)
 
gasgirl0610 said:
I have to ponder whether those that whine about URMs "stealing their spots" are those who are rather insecure about their own abilities, and perhaps simply couldn't cut it and need a scapegoat. I have heard comments similar to this throughout my educational years. My responses range from pity, to mild annoyance, to sheer rage. Even the seemingly innocent comments such as "You got that MCAT score, you must be part Asian," that may be perceived as humorous to some who are obscenely foolish, are outrageously insulting and ignorant. The simple fact is that many unenlightened and insecure people assume, based on another individual's ethnicity, that they are automatically less qualified- period. I have heard this from members of my own class- a class with 16 black students, 4 of whom were nominated for AOA (yes, that is 25%), a class in which the average Step I score for black students was 239 (indeed several points higher than the overall mean). Furthermore, if we want to go back to admission stats, our mean MCAT score was 0.9 ABOVE, not below, the overall class average. There are also the otherwise intelligent classmates who feel it necessary to use slang and improper grammar when they converse with us, completely oblivious to the fact that, even as blacks, we managed to master the appropriate use of the English language. ( My, how did I manage 5s on those Lit and Comp APs in high school? What a miracle!) I could go on so much longer, but I won't. My advice, for those of you willing to be a bit open-minded, is to take time to acknowledge the possibility that an "URM" might actually know what they are doing, and perhaps, be doing it better than you, before you jump to erroneous conclusions without hard evidence about the individual WITH WHOM YOU ARE INTERACTING. He or she may give you a new perspective, and you might even learn something along the way. After all, remember what happens when you ASSume. :)

Great post, but 16 black students? I'm thinking I'd be lucky to see 7 in most majority med schools. BTW, I'd LOVE to know the name of the school thought it "sounds" like an Ivy. Sounds like a great place to be if you want to get a good education!
 
1Path said:
Great post, but 16 black students? I'm thinking I'd be lucky to see 7 in most majority med schools. BTW, I'd LOVE to know the name of the school thought it "sounds" like an Ivy. Sounds like a great place to be if you want to get a good education!


Harvard and Penn (and I think Hopkins as well) pull those kind of numbers these days, mostly by their reputation and having great support systems. The sad thing is that all the URMs at the best places are highly qualified, and the classic case of AA doesn't need to happen at these schools (in fact, I think the SDN AA rarely happens at all). Yet, people assume URMs are there on the kindness of others rather than by our own caliber, and I worry that this type of undeserved smear will follow URMs for the rest of their career. :(

I guess you guys are right. If a patient is desperate for care, forcing them to take it from someone they are prejudice against might actually be a life changing experience when they realize URMs can be competent! :idea:
 
Hard24Get said:
The sad thing is that all the URMs at the best places are highly qualified, and the classic case of AA doesn't need to happen at these schools (in fact, I think the SDN AA rarely happens at all). Yet, people assume URMs are there on the kindness of others rather than by our own caliber, and I worry that this type of undeserved smear will follow URMs for the rest of their career. :(
Just curious, what do you mean by "highly competitive"?? I ask because I've heard of folks with "high number" applying to schools like Howard and Meharry and getting REJECTED!!! The assumption that high numbers makes you a "shoo in" doesn't seem to fly at schools looking to train physicians that have more going for them than high numbers. And you know I've been a premed off and on for 22 years and I have yet to meet a URM that matriculated into med school that wasn't qualified to be there. And the group of folks I know had MCAT's ranging form the low 20's to high 30's and attended schools from Harvard to Howard(and for the record, one of the the Harvad grads had an MCAT score in the 20's ;) ). So maybe when thinking of these top ranked schools, more competitive numberswise may be a better way of looking at their records since even high numbers are no guareentee of admittance to ANY medical school.

As for a 'smear" it only exists when you allow it too. I can't recall a time in history when certain members of our society didn't see URM's as unqualified for one thing or another so I don't anticipate this changing any time soon. Still, if you maintain a healthy sense of self and surround yourself with the right people, you'll realize that people thinking less of your abilities is more THEIR problem than yours.
 
1Path said:
As for a 'smear" it only exists when you allow it too. I can't recall a time in history when certain members of our society didn't see URM's as unqualified for one thing or another so I don't anticipate this changing any time soon. Still, if you maintain a healthy sense of self and surround yourself with the right people, you'll realize that people thinking less of your abilities is more THEIR problem than yours.

Pretty much. Some people will think less of other people regardless of how much or how little they acheive. Whether AA existed or not, bigots and ignorants would still assume minorities were "less qualified", etc, whenever they encountered a minority in a position higher than that of "garbageman" or "paperboy". You can't give such people enough to ever make them accept you as an equal - the change has to come from inside. You can't force englightenment on another human being. So live your life, and do the best you can - regardless of what others may think.
 
Rafa said:
Pretty much. Some people will think less of other people regardless of how much or how little they acheive. Whether AA existed or not, bigots and ignorants would still assume minorities were "less qualified", etc, whenever they encountered a minority in a position higher than that of "garbageman" or "paperboy". You can't give such people enough to ever make them accept you as an equal - the change has to come from inside. You can't force englightenment on another human being. So live your life, and do the best you can - regardless of what others may think.

The funny thing is that I am absolutely convinced that most of the URMs I have worked with had higher MCAT and Step scores than I did and are, in fact, better qualified then I was. That's why I take a rather laissez-faire attitude towards the whole affirmative action debate. I just don't think the top two students in my graduating class, both of them black, even needed AA to get in. It would have been "gilding the lily."
 
Panda Bear said:
No. You should stand up for the minority Doctors in your practice. If someone says, "I would prefer a White Doctor" you should say, politely, that every doctor in your practice is qualified to treat patients and if you don't like it we can refer you somewhere else.

You don't have to cater to other people's bigotry. I'm surpised you have to hear this from me.
I agree. One thing people forget sometimes is that there is no "right" to not be offended in this world, or even in this country. If people want to pay for their own health care out of pocket, they can almost certainly get the Aryan doc of their dreams. Otherwise, they're going to have to make due with all of us. ;)
 
I am a URM, native american ( enrolled triabl registry) 40 on the MCAT and 3.69 gpa at a really good school. Tons of research, publications (even a book), shadowed folks at the Brigham and MGH. On and on and on. Everyone told me. You will get in everywhere. Not true, I was rejected at a couple of IVY schools and waitlisted. I thought I had an advantage. A couple mexican students said same experience. Good Gpa in engineering, good MCATs, rejected lots of places. I got in to some and rejected at others just like everyone else. I too thought being a URM gave me an advantage.


gasgirl0610 said:
I have to ponder whether those that whine about URMs "stealing their spots" are those who are rather insecure about their own abilities, and perhaps simply couldn't cut it and need a scapegoat. I have heard comments similar to this throughout my educational years. My responses range from pity, to mild annoyance, to sheer rage. Even the seemingly innocent comments such as "You got that MCAT score, you must be part Asian," that may be perceived as humorous to some who are obscenely foolish, are outrageously insulting and ignorant. The simple fact is that many unenlightened and insecure people assume, based on another individual's ethnicity, that they are automatically less qualified- period. I have heard this from members of my own class- a class with 16 black students, 4 of whom were nominated for AOA (yes, that is 25%), a class in which the average Step I score for black students was 239 (indeed several points higher than the overall mean). Furthermore, if we want to go back to admission stats, our mean MCAT score was 0.9 ABOVE, not below, the overall class average. There are also the otherwise intelligent classmates who feel it necessary to use slang and improper grammar when they converse with us, completely oblivious to the fact that, even as blacks, we managed to master the appropriate use of the English language. ( My, how did I manage 5s on those Lit and Comp APs in high school? What a miracle!) I could go on so much longer, but I won't. My advice, for those of you willing to be a bit open-minded, is to take time to acknowledge the possibility that an "URM" might actually know what they are doing, and perhaps, be doing it better than you, before you jump to erroneous conclusions without hard evidence about the individual WITH WHOM YOU ARE INTERACTING. He or she may give you a new perspective, and you might even learn something along the way. After all, remember what happens when you ASSume. :)
 
dante201 said:
I agree with beary that Iowa's med school is more diverse than you might expect from the state. But, we definitely have more women URM than men URM. I can't say with authority that this happens at other schools as well, but my undergrad advisor was a social worker and medical sociologist. I remember that she made the point that minority families from lower income backgrounds were much more likely to send daughters to college and beyond than sons, partially due to the fact that males could make more money right out of HS. Of course, she was telling me this in the 90's, and she was basing this on her practice and research days which stretched back for decades, so I don't know how applicable this is to our current higher education culture.
It's probably a reflection of the college demographics, which shows a significant gap between the number of black men in college and black women in college (I'm not sure about other racial/ethnic groups). In general, there are more women in college than men as well.

Here's one article I found that said:
Washington Post said:
Among black women, the number of degree earners has soared 219 percent. But for black men, it has increased only 5 percent. [from the 1970s]
http://members.aol.com/digasa/stats13.htm
 
Brainsucker said:
Heh. It's not just a lack of familiarity. Having horns is not really a value-free description--Kind of implies that Jews are tools of the devil. And this is why I don't live in rural Virginia.

Nice how you hold the bigoted notion that rural people are bigots. Very postmodern of you. Not something the people from my rural home would hold against you though. They're a bit more open-minded than you...
 
MiesVanDerMom said:
Nice how you hold the bigoted notion that rural people are bigots. Very postmodern of you. Not something the people from my rural home would hold against you though. They're a bit more open-minded than you...

Good point. Somehow it's become acceptable to thrash on people from rural areas as being somehow inferior. I guess we should all just think it's "funny" when we hear references to "white trash". Aw shucks.......
 
cfdavid said:
Good point. Somehow it's become acceptable to thrash on people from rural areas as being somehow inferior. I guess we should all just think it's "funny" when we hear references to "white trash". Aw shucks.......
Har har, Nascar, three wives, George W. and racists! but don't say anything stereotypical about anybody!
 
I love this thread. Much better! GO SDN!!! (My hopes are a lil restored)
 
TheProwler said:
Har har, Nascar, three wives, George W. and racists! but don't say anything stereotypical about anybody!

Prowler, I'm assuming you're just joking. No big deal with me. I'm not that insecure. But, I'll use your remark to make a point anyway.

You can make any "stereotypical", bigoted, remark about any race or religion on the planet. My point was that people (I should say non-whites) seem to accept it (or assume it's o.k.) when comments are made about whites. But just about any other race would be up in arms protesting over similar statements or generalizations.

There shouldn't be multiple standards for different races when it comes to stereotyping or making bigoted comments based on an equal amount of ignorance. It's dehumanizing to the likely majority of that group that doesn't fit that bill. That's all I'm trying to say. But, I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir.
 
any thing new?
 
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