Explain this to me...

[All-Star14]

Thanks for posting such a great message. Those who complain about AA never stop to think what life is like for a black person--the feeling of being inferior to our white counterparts (not all the time but at times this feeling can be overwhelming). Any opportunity we get to succeed in this world we should cherish and take advantage of. That's why AA is so important to me. I'm able to better myself by receiving a great education. This will pay dividends in the future (hopefully). Being black in America isn't easy (it's even harder w/o $$), but at least AA acknowledges that.

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[JScrusader]

What does everyone think about blacks vs. whites in athletics? It has become increasingly clear that a difference exists which cannot be attributed to social factors alone.

 

[kito]

medical schools are sworn to produce the best physicians and surgeons from the best students that they can. morehouse and howard clearly do not do so because they judge students by different standards. it would be wrong to deny that color does not play a bigger role at these schools than it does at other medical schools, and it would be be clearly inconsistent to say that these students are up to par with the standards that we set forth and see with students applying to and getting accepted at other medical schools.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by JScrusader
What does everyone think about blacks vs. whites in athletics? It has become increasingly clear that a difference exists which cannot be attributed to social factors alone.

what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Don't backpedal too hard, you'll trip.

Same type of thinking in predominate black culture. Why are black Matriculants scoring a standard deviation below their non-AA counterparts? It's not genetic. It's not social economic. It is this culture that does not value academics. A culture that AA helps exacerbate. Lower expectations lead to lower results. Contary to what you believe, most of us are not racist and do not turn a blind eye to what incredible dire straights the black community is in. So do we want to continue fooling ourselves into believing lowering standards for blacks and URMs will help them strive harder academically? Or can we finally do something that will help these people?

You may well have your facts right, but you are off in your interpretation of them. First of all, I don't think there is any culture that, as a policy, chooses not to value academics. A lack of appreciation of education tends to predominate amongst those people and/or groups who are illiterate or poorly educated to begin with. If you dropped out in 8th grade, it is highly unlikely that you will have much academic guidance to give to your children; on the other hand, if you have grad/professional degrees, chances are exceedingly low that your children will end up not going to college. And this trend is not related simply to the guidance that one is able to provide. Academic degrees directly correlate to higher incomes. That means that a literate person's children have better prospects when it comes to affording higher education, than an illiterate person's children do.
Now, if the number of illiterate people were distributed evenly and proportionally amongst the various racial groups, there would be no URM issue. But, the fact is that some races are traditionally in a worse situation than the others. Hence, the need to distinguish URMs based on race.
As far as lowering the standards is concerned, please remember that AA still requires certain minimums from those URM applicants who CHOOSE to engage their diadvantaged status (There are plenty of them out there who do not). In any case, the lowering of standards (if it may be called that at all) is not designed to hand out charity admissions; rather, it is designed to take into account the compounding factors that precluded one's chances of getting the "higher" standards. Think about it - if one has had a top-notch education and hasn't had to work (hence more time for extra-curriculars) because his/her parents could afford everything money could buy, he/she will obviously be in a great position to rack up stellar stats. And then there is someone whose parents could hardly afford to send him/her to school, much less to college, so that he/she has had to work and pay for college; how is it fair to hold this person to the same standards as the first person? My point here, besides the obvious, is that lower stats do not by any means necessarily correlate to a diminished ability to excel. The underlying factors have to be consider if there is to be any hope of arriving at a just conclusion.

 

[SMW]

Originally posted by Qafas

As far as lowering the standards is concerned, please remember that AA still requires certain minimums from those URM applicants who CHOOSE to engage their diadvantaged status (There are plenty of them out there who do not).

Great post, except I'm not sure that this one sentence is correct. At least as far as the AMCAS app goes, one is asked a series of questions. What is your ethnicity (Hispanic, or NOT Hispanic), what is your race, (White, Black, American Indian or Allaska Native, Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, Asian, or Other), what is your first language, and finally do you consider yourself disadvantaged (yes, no). I am not sure that answering no to the last question takes one out of the URM pool. I'm not saying that it doesn't, I just don't know for sure. I am 1/4 Hispanic and so checked the Hispanic box and the white box. I did not check the disadvantaged box. I had interviewers last year who seemed to expect me to be a native Spanish speaker and disadvantaged even though my application clearly stated that neither of those were the case.

 

[Raptor]

Qafus, that was a great explanation. Now there are students out there that will argue until the end about AA because they have been fed with a silver spoon all their lives. Let me tell you a story about myself.
My mom came to America at an age of 20, after experiencing a war which she almost died (don't want to elaborate). In addition, she had me when she was also 20 years of age. With no money, no education, no nothing she couldn't take care of me. At that time (1982) abortion was a proceducure to consider in that situation. However, she decided to send me to Africa to live with my grandma, while a civil war was going on. My life in Africa (now looking back) was horrible because sometimes I would go without days without eating but back then I didn't realize it. I had a certain disease but there were no good health care in Liberia where I lived. I mean there were M.D.s' looking in a surgery book while doing surgey, thats how bad it was in Liberia. Even though I was 7 years old, I still remebered seeing people getting decapitated and slain. With the war going on I didn't even go to school because it was so dangerous. Consequetly, my life as well as my grandma's life was threatened. My mom decided to sent for me and my grandma; however, we almost got killed (had to travel secretly to escape) because there were soldiers all over.
I came back to America where I was born, seeing my mom for the first time, well I was with her till 2 months before she sent me to Africa. To make a long story short, I came to this country no better then in Africa minus the war. I didn't know how to read or write at an age of 8~9 years old. So I had to start everything over again, therefore I got sent back to the 1st grade. At an age of 9 years old and in the 1st grade was quite embarrassing. My 1st grade teacher held a conference and told my mom that I was ******ed but my mom refused to put me in a special class. I didn't know what was wrong with me but I told my mom that I never learned how to read or write. However, for some reason (and without really nobody's help) I got more determined in proving my 1st grade teacher wrong. So I decided that I needed to read and write in order to prove her wrong, not only that but to beat my competition (the other kids in my classroom). My mom (being single) was poor and didn't have that much money to support me with books, so I learned how to read by going to class extra and at the library checking out every book (learned how to read little by little). In about six months, not only did I learn how to read but I started getting top honors and awards before I was 10. I didn't stop there but I thought that I was too old to be in my second grade class, therefore I took a test to skip me; I skipped the third grade. I kept on excelling despite the fact that nobody really cared around me about academics. I learned at an early age that my people (African Americans) don't really value education, so they tried to impose it on me. Despite all the negative peer pressure to do mediocre in the classroom, I founded pleasure in making good grades. When I was in the sixth grade I wanted to take a test to skip me again so I can be a year ahead of my classmates, everybody objected to the fact that I was going to fast and needed to slow down. But that same determination that got me where I was didn't allow me to settle for anything less then greatness. So I went ahead and took the test to skip the seventh grade and passed it. In addition, I received many acadamic achievement for my perserverance. Some of my teachers said that I was an over achiever and tenacious. My father didn't want me to go into medicine because he wanted me to play football (I was pretty good), and my mom didn't think that I was making the right decision to go into medicine. I am totally getting what Qafus say because if your parents arent educated (both parents had high education, and settled) they aren't going to push( my mom/dad never push me to excelled) their kids. To make a long story short I was 4th in my class in overall gpa but because my mom is single and needed help because we don't have any family where we live, I decided not to go to the university that I wanted.
There were many major obstacles (I lived in the ghetto, went to bad schools but I decided to take my education into my own hands; because i realized that only I will suffer the consequences of my education, no one else) that I had to overcome to where I am right now, and I am certain others had been through worse. However, many African-Americans (speaking from my perspective) go through the same thing or worse and you can't expect every African American to have strong determination when soceity constatly shows us that to be successful, you have to become a athlete. That is why you see so many of us falling by the waste side. If AA wasn't implemented then things will go worse. Now I believe (I am a African American) that AA isn't fair sometimes but that is the only thing right now that is going to help us. Not all african american are lazy because I feel that I HAVE to work twice as harder then my competitors to get the same things. Try working full time, helping support your mom and little sister, paying bills, taking a full load of pre med classes (3 sciences w/ labs), and worrying about how many extracurrilars activities you need to be in, in addition to making good grades. You tell me are you able to do ALL that while trying to make above a 3.5 gpa and 30> MCAT? You all haven't walked a mile in all these people (not only African American but people who go through the same thing I go through) shoes. I am sorry that I can't make a 4.0 or a 40 MCAT while doing everything else while your parents pay your way and and you don't have to work 30~35 hours to support yourself and your mom, I may be less qualified then you are but placed in the same situation as you all that are spoon fed, w/ the determination that some African Americans have, I think that we would be more qualified that our competitors. So you all posting on this board saying that AA is unfair, then do something about it to help others, considering you do want to help people. Is it fair that one group gets better medical help then others because of their skin color and the other color gets better treatment because of their. If we get more URM to help with their people, then that URM doctor will be looked upon and that will build up the confidence of some of us, which will be bettering soceity. Look I love all kinds of people but in the real world some people don't like me because I am African American. So lets stop complaining and start helping.
Raptor
Super Saiyan 3

 

[DW]

does anyone have the cliffnotes for raptor's last post?

just kidding

 

[Raptor]

Yes I do have some cliffnotes and if anybody willing to buy it, its at Barnes and Noble for $9.99. half price for SDNer

LOL

 

[Raptor]

oh yeah and I will inflate the price to 20.00 for DW for being smart.

 

[SMW]

Raptor, thanks for the mini-novel. What all schools are you applying to, and how's it going?

 

[OneStrongBro]

Touche...

I didn't take it personally. Pretty funny actually. You are right, we need COMIC RELIEF from the NEGATIVE ENERGY on this string.

For the record, sometimes jokes can cross the line.

For example,

NEVER ask any women if they wash their pants with WINDEX.

 

[SMW]

bump

 

[Raptor]

SMW, you welcome about that mini novel, I didnt intent for it to be that long. I was waiting for my professor and thought i write that to waste time.
However, I am a junior and I am planning on applying the second semester of my senior year (due to financial reasons). Although my top choice is Duke, I Columbia is my top choice, so can you give them a word about me. Thanks SMW

 

[Qafas]

Wonderful story, Raptor. You are a prime example for the point I was trying to make. I agree that AA is unfair to some, and allows some others to take unfair advantage of the situation. But, it's better than nothing at all, for a cycle such as this is not going to break spontaneously. If one needs more proof, one need only look at the widening gap between the rich and the poor, right here in our own country. Some people have remarked that we should be providing the same opportunity for all and stop the "reverse discrimination." However, what they don't realize is that we cannot simply choose to engage that ideal NOW, for the damage has already been done. There has to be some resolution of the disparity that is already in place before we can speak of equal opportunity for all.

with regards

P.S. - good luck with all your quests, Raptor

 

[Qafas]

Originally posted by SMW
Great post, except I'm not sure that this one sentence is correct. At least as far as the AMCAS app goes, one is asked a series of questions. What is your ethnicity (Hispanic, or NOT Hispanic), what is your race, (White, Black, American Indian or Allaska Native, Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, Asian, or Other), what is your first language, and finally do you consider yourself disadvantaged (yes, no). I am not sure that answering no to the last question takes one out of the URM pool. I'm not saying that it doesn't, I just don't know for sure. I am 1/4 Hispanic and so checked the Hispanic box and the white box. I did not check the disadvantaged box. I had interviewers last year who seemed to expect me to be a native Spanish speaker and disadvantaged even though my application clearly stated that neither of those were the case.

I could be mistaken, but I have always been under the impression that you are considered a disadvantaged applicant only if you meet the criteria AND choose to apply as such. I am fairly certain that if you check the disadvantaged box, you have to submit additional documentation in support of your claim.

with regards

 

[SMW]

Well, somebody should tell the interviewers then.

Actually, I don't think you have to provide documentation if you check the disadvantaged box, but just a description of how you were disadvantaged.

 

[Bikini Princess]

I'm not sure about the disadvantaged status, but I know that it does allow you to apply to AMCAS schools without having to pay a fee. I believe that this allows people to apply to numerous schools, without needing to consider the costs of each one.

I think schools are just as interested in applicants with a disadvantaged status as they are those applicants who are underrepresented minorities, because disadvantaged applicants have a geniune disadvantage (usually poverty). I think it is unfortunate that there are relatively few applicants from impoverished backgrounds, such as truly rural or inner-urban areas.

I think medicine tends to run in families, and it isn't easy for children from poor families to gain access to the schooling needed to even be a pre-med.

 

[SMW]

Originally posted by Bikini Princess
I'm not sure about the disadvantaged status, but I know that it does allow you to apply to AMCAS schools without having to pay a fee.

I think you're confusing disadvantaged status with qualifying for a fee waiver, which is apparently very hard to do. One can claim disadvantaged status due to a circumstance in the past (poverty or other hardshsips) that does not necessarily have to have continued until the time of application.

 

[likwidscorpion]

I have an African-American friend who's applying to medical school this year. He made a comment that made me think alot about what it meant to be an "African-American" . He feels that sometimes he is being robbed of who claims to be "African-Americans" nowadays. He comes from an African-American family descent whose historical experience dates back to slavery in the United States. He feels that those who are immigrants or first-generation Americans from Africa or the Carribbean like to use the Underrepresented status of "African-Americans" while applying to medical schools when, in fact, Africans or Carribbeans in general setting feel that they are better than their "African-American" counterparts. I'm just wondering how other people feel about this.

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by likwidscorpion
I have an African-American friend who's applying to medical school this year. He made a comment that made me think alot about what it meant to be an "African-American" . He feels that sometimes he is being robbed of who claims to be "African-Americans" nowadays. He comes from an African-American family descent whose historical experience dates back to slavery in the United States. He feels that those who are immigrants or first-generation Americans from Africa or the Carribbean like to use the Underrepresented status of "African-Americans" while applying to medical schools when, in fact, Africans or Carribbeans in general setting feel that they are better than their "African-American" counterparts. I'm just wondering how other people feel about this.

Well, one of my friends had issues with the use of the word African-American. He preferred being called "black" because he was from the Caribbean, as does one of my black friends whose family has been in the US for a few generations just because she thinks "African-American" is silly since she feels absolutely no ties to Africa.

Plus, my friend who was born in Zimbabwe would actually be "African-American," even though she's white...

None of this is of course relevant to what you're saying...

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Raptor, aren't you the guy who started the "I'm really competitive" thread? But you're saying you can't compete in this thread. What is competitive about asking for handouts?

If you are as bad off as you describe, I will assume you are receiving a Pell Grant ($3300/year). I will also assume your mom is living in low-income housing ($200-$300/month). Is your mom disabled? Why can't she work? If she is disabled, I assume is getting she either getting social security and/or SSI ($545 minimum/month). Where is your father? If he is disabled, I assume the household is receiving at least $900 from the government. Are you working to pay for your living expenses or are you working to raise your mom and sister? The math doesn't add up unless your family is living above their means.

Can't handle the course workload? Slow down! Graduate in 5 years instead of 4. Can't find time to work and study? Have you ever heard of the work study program? Can't find time to study for the MCAT? When you graduate, take a year or two off and work. Study for the MCAT at night. Enter medical school when you're 25 instead of when you're 22.

The options are there. Are you pursuing them? Or are you using AA as a excuse? I find it funny that you haven't even took the MCAT and have already assumed you can't score at least a 30. Lowered expectations lead to lowered results.

BTW, to all of the economic AA based proponents... An SES based AA will hurt AAMC defined URMs more then you can imagine. Most URM Matriculants are not poor. They are middle to upper class. MCAT/GPA are correlated to SES level, even within racial groups....if you guys haven't figured that out yet. If middle to upper class URMs are scoring around a standard deviation below non-AA Matriculants, guess who will gain entry in non-race based AA?

I just find it incredible that anybody who has or will have a Bachelors can seriously consider themselves to be disadvantaged.

 

[Centrum]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Raptor, aren't you the guy who started the "I'm really competitive" thread? But you're saying compete here. What is competitive about asking for handouts?

If you are as bad off as you describe, I will assume you are receiving a Pell Grant ($3300/year). I also will assume your mom is living in low-income housing ($200-$300/month). Is your mom disabled? Why can't she work? If she is disabled, I assume is getting she either getting social security and/or SSI ($545 minimum/month). Where is your father? If he is disabled, I assume the household is receiving at least $900 from the government. Are you working to pay for your living expense or are you working to raise your mom and sister. The math doesn't add up unless your family is living above their means.

Can't handle the course workload? Slow down! Graduate in 5 years instead of 4. Can't find time to work and study? Have you ever heard of the work study program? Can't find time to study for the MCAT? Take a year or two when you graduate and find a job. Study for the MCAT at night. Enter medical school when you're 25 instead of when you're 22.

The options are there. Are you pursuing them? Or are you using AA as a excuse? I find it funny that you haven't even took the MCAT and assumed you can't score at least a 30. Lowered expectations lead to lowered results. Tell me how high you are aiming.

BTW, to all of the economic AA based proponents... An SES based AA will hurt AAMC defined URMs more then you can imagine. Most URM Matriculants are not poor. They are middle to upper class. MCAT/GPA are correlated to SES level, even within racial groups....if you guys haven't figured out yet. If middle to upper class URMs are scoring around a standard deviation below non-AA Matriculants, guess who will gain entry in non-race based AA?

I just find it incredible that anybody who has or will have a Bachelors can seriously consider themselves to be disadvantaged.

Beautifully said....

 

[mgshah]

1. URM's as someone else noted, have been only been considered equal for about 50 years now. To put things into the most extreme case and perhaps the most general case, URMs started from scratch from this point, like many Immigrants. However, due to cultural differences, Immigrants placed importance on education rather than work. In the GENERAL URM culture and in the GENERAL American culture(50 years ago), once your children were legally able to work, you had to get a job. Immigrant families did not place importance on finding a job. Immigrants stayed in school and were able to enter higher paying jobs faster than their URM counterparts. SO, the cycle begins. The children get low paying jobs with no chance of promotion to help their parents out. Many followed the same trade their parents were in. Now, the third generation inherits the same difficulty. They quit school... and so on. Immigrants quickly caught up to the white majority. This has been written about many times over. Its a fact. (It was in my AP US History class in highschool)

2. Its going to take many generations to remove the cultural differences. To speed up the process, AA is developed, and is showing some progress. Once the generation of URMs that have benefited from AA enter the work force, the effects will be noticed. Better schools in urban areas, more URMs in college...until AA will no longer be based on race but on socioeconomic factors .

3. In short, the differences between races as far as representation in high profile jobs, is due to cultural and economic diffrences. For example, people in rural areas whether white or black face similar challenges. Some schools consider rural students right along with URMs.

just my 2 cents on the way things are.

 

[futuremd45]

ryo-oko


Damn bro, for the amount you bitch about AA, it sounds like you got alot of time on your hands...or maybe you have personal reasons against AA... what happened a sista give no play?

just my 2 cents

 

[TalkAboutIslam]

Originally posted by futuremd45
ryo-oko


Damn bro, for the amount you bitch about AA, it sounds like you got alot of time on your hands...or maybe you have personal reasons against AA... what happened a sista give no play?

just my 2 cents

that was 2 dollars..... lol.