Facebook group for pre-med students of color

[Noomm]

Yes, I do, and you know what I'm going to say. Because despite their struggle, they are well represented in medicine. Which you are going to use a a springboard to say that black people should be able to do the same. And I'll say that, yes, Asian culture has led to academic and professional success. But that for many reasons, other groups of people have not been able to do the same. For black people, the cycle of 300+ years of discrimination and institutional neglect and resultant cultural apathy, for example.

Blacks were also discriminated against in sports and yet they succeeded without any affirmative action at all.

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[Pusheen]

Oh no, sociology? You mean the illogical voodoo recognized by every institute of higher learning and also featured on the MCAT? Never tell me.

I'm not dissing sociology, I'm just saying you can't make points by just throwing terms around as if they prove something

 

[cadingcading]

White is a color, right?

I'll help you out a little with this one..
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=person+of+color&l=1

 

[sovereign0]

Even though I realized this thread has derailed greatly to another topic in itself.

I was about to make a post re-emphasizing what I said about ~50 posts ago, but you beat me to it. These threads always devolve from discussing URM medical school admissions (which this thread wasn't even originally about, mind you) into a discussion about affirmative action and it's effect on racial inequality or social injustice. The two are closely intertwined, but once it gets generalized it never gets back on topic.

This thread is now about something else completely, so what we are trying to say is no longer the topic of discussion.

 

[Pusheen]

I'll help you out a little with this one..
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=person+of+color&l=1

Damn, why do I always fall for this

 

[Noomm]

Anyone care to answer this one?

All I know is that it makes me very upset that we have different measuring sticks for different ethnic groups. I understand that some of you will never consider that to be racist, but that's what I think.

Also, I know from my experience some of you just don't understand hypotheticals at all. But I will try anyway -

Imagine a new study comes out saying that patients across every racial group are generally more comfortable with receiving treatment from white doctors rather than any other racial group. Because of this, the AAMC shifts its policy so that now the admission standards are lower for whites.

Now, if you were to use one word to describe the AAMC's policy shift in the most specific way possible, what would it be?

 

[Axes]

I think @Axes is more focusing on current racism that exists and disadvantages individuals intragenerationally.

From what I got so far, the idea is that earlier in the individual's life, they are not given adequate educational privilege, and are therefore put at a disadvantage when competing for the privilege of attending medical school.

That and partial compensation for cultural racism is the philosophy behind affirmative action programs in general.

 

[cadingcading]

I should add that allies to POC are welcome in this group as well! Hope you join!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/premedsoc/

 

[Spector1]

That and partial compensation for cultural racism is the philosophy behind affirmative action programs in general.

So you adopt tit for tat, and abandon principles of fairness and equality by the wayside. what an excellent way to combat racism by discriminating against people.

I should add that allies to POC are welcome in this group as well! Hope you join!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/premedsoc/

I'll pass, its clear from the discussion here that minorities like me are not welcome.

 

[sovereign0]

I'll help you out a little with this one..
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=person+of+color&l=1

Hey thanks, let me return the favor.

 

[Axes]

Anyone care to answer this one?

All I know is that it makes me very upset that we have different measuring sticks for different ethnic groups. I understand that some of you will never consider that to be racist, but that's what I think.

Also, I know from my experience some of you just don't understand hypotheticals at all. But I will try anyway -

Imagine a new study comes out saying that patients across every racial group are generally more comfortable with receiving treatment from white doctors rather than any other racial group. Because of this, the AAMC shifts its policy so that now the admission standards are lower for whites.

Now, if you were to use one word to describe the AAMC's policy shift in the most specific way possible, what would it be?

I can't reply as fast because I'm in the middle of something, but sure.

I understand that this can seem upsetting. However, you have to understand that certain groups of people in this country have an inherent institutional and cultural advantage. This is invisible to people who have it, unless you really think about it and encounter perspectives of those who live without it. So if we don't ever recognize that some people don't have it, we by default select against them for positions of academic and professional success. I didn't phrase that well, but that's the jist of it. You can also look at my earlier comments. This sort of hypothetical is nonsensical, because it generalizes the issue to the point of meaninglessness and alteration of core principles and evidenced fact. You can argue that, but it's true. It's similar to saying well the answer to this physics problem would be different if the coefficient of friction was different-- you're altering a fundamental aspect of the premise/problem.

 

[Axes]

So you adopt tit for tat, and abandon principles of fairness and equality by the wayside. what an excellent way to combat racism by discriminating against people.



I'll pass, its clear from the discussion here that minorities like me are not welcome.

Racism is not prejudice. Racism is a power relationship.

 

[StudyLater]

Imagine a new study comes out saying that patients across every racial group are generally more comfortable with receiving treatment from white doctors rather than any other racial group. Because of this, the AAMC shifts its policy so that now the admission standards are lower for whites.

Now, if you were to use one word to describe the AAMC's policy shift in the most specific way possible, what would it be?

Beneficial at least to the specific patients used in that study.

Oh haha, my bad. Yes, it is granting privilege in order to compensate for a default institutional disadvantage.

The disadvantage, though, is hindering the acquisition of a privilege. That is your main problem?

No loaded question. I'm literally just trying to understand where you stand on this. I am also trying to maybe make you see why this issue may not be taken very seriously by certain individuals. No essential human right is violated when someone is refused entry to a medical college.

Why are we here @StudyLater...we have a test on Saturday...

Hey, this is good practice for CARS and psych. Not even joking.

 

[Axes]

Blacks were also discriminated against in sports and yet they succeeded without any affirmative action at all.

Because all you need to learn a sport are sports programs which most schools have, a ball which most can afford, and a court/field which most cities have. Ever notice how there aren't a whole lot of black tennis players, golfers, swimmers, hockey players, lacrosse players etc? Because those sports require a higher capital investment. And yes the Williams sisters and Tiger exist and are some of the best, but it's not the norm for a reason.

 

[StudyLater]

Racism is not prejudice. Racism is a power relationship.

I thought it was a behavior born out of prejudice, which is the attitude.

Sorry @Pusheen I loves my sociology.

 

[amazing tekkers]

What a stupid ass thread. Old white man here though.

 

[StudyLater]

Because all you need to learn a sport are sports programs which most schools have, a ball which most can afford, and a court/field which most cities have. Ever notice how there aren't a whole lot of black tennis players, golfers, swimmers, hockey players, lacrosse players etc? Because those sports require a higher capital investment. And yes the Williams sisters and Tiger exist and are some of the best, but it's not the norm for a reason.

Just for fun, I swear.

All I need to learn physics/chem/bio/math is google and khan. That's even cheaper than a basketball.

 

[Noomm]

Because all you need to learn a sport are sports programs which most schools have, a ball which most can afford, and a court/field which most cities have. Ever notice how there aren't a whole lot of black tennis players, golfers, swimmers, hockey players, lacrosse players etc? Because those sports require a higher capital investment. And yes the Williams sisters and Tiger exist and are some of the best, but it's not the norm for a reason

Ok so let's run with that example. What would you do if you thought blacks had potential in these sports and you wanted them to be represented in them to the degree that you think is fair?

 

[StudyLater]

What a stupid ass thread. Old white man here though.

Geez. So like what's up with you guys controlling the world and ****? Mind passing some of that power our way?

 

[Axes]

Just for fun, I swear.

All I need to learn physics/chem/bio/math is google and khan. That's even cheaper than a basketball.

Wow, you must be really smart. I mean that honestly. I could never in a million years learn those subjects without my teachers.

 

[Axes]

Ok so let's run with that example. What would you do if you thought blacks had potential in these sports and you wanted them to be represented in them to the degree that you think is fair?

I feel like you may not have read the early bits of this thread. I would give them opportunities to learn these sports at an early age. If you are going to say that we should do that with education instead of using AA to compensate for a lack of edu opportunity, then that is absolutely the ideal, but such programs, eg head start, have been defunded. If that's not what you're getting at then my bad

 

[StudyLater]

Wow, you must be really smart. I mean that honestly. I have a 35 ACT and I could never in a million years learn those subjects without my teachers.

Well, Khan does talk about needing to have the "growth mindset" to be successful. Who knows? Could be just a matter of properly motivating people.

 

[Axes]

That's even cheaper than a basketball.

Not significant, but its probably not. Transportation to a public library often enough to learn these subjects, a laptop with internet connection.. both are more expensive than a basketball.

 

[Yazo]

That and partial compensation for cultural racism is the philosophy behind affirmative action programs in general.

"Compensation for cultural racism"
Why should these people pay for the sins of their ancestors? This is what I am assuming you are getting at.

 

[Axes]

Well, Khan does talk about needing to have the "growth mindset" to be successful. Who knows? Could be just a matter of properly motivating people.

Yeah, I agree. The biggest educational hurdle faced by this country as a whole is the fact that it is in many circles considered better to get a lax scholarship than it is to get a 4.0. That said, institutional neglect breeds cultural apathy in URM PoC communities.

 

[Axes]

"Compensation for cultural racism"
Why should these people pay for the sins of their ancestors? This is what I am assuming you are getting at.

It's not that. It's helping URM PoC out of the disadvantage they face due to the oppression of their ancestors.

 

[Noomm]

I feel like you may not have read the early bits of this thread. I would give them opportunities to learn these sports at an early age. If you are going to say that we should do that with education instead of using AA to compensate for a lack of edu opportunity, then that is absolutely the ideal, but such programs, eg head start, have been defunded. If that's not what you're getting at then my bad

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

 

[StudyLater]

Not significant, but its probably not. Transportation to a public library often enough to learn these subjects, a laptop with internet connection.. both are more expensive than a basketball.

Halfway decent laptops are super duper cheap! Craigslist and 40-50 bucks. Seriously there's always some fast-food chain willing to employ you in any neighborhood, rich or poor, to be able to get you that kind of money. No need to go to the library once you have that - just go to the ****ty fast food chain you work at and use their wifi until the manager chases you out with a broom screaming about how you never sweeped that crap up in the bathroom.

 

[StudyLater]

Yeah, I agree. The biggest educational hurdle faced by this country as a whole is the fact that it is in many circles considered better to get a lax scholarship than it is to get a 4.0. That said, institutional neglect breeds cultural apathy in URM PoC communities.

I don't think it's just URMs or people of low SES that are apathetic.

School's lame.

 

[Axes]

Halfway decent laptops are super duper cheap! Craigslist and 40-50 bucks. Seriously there's always some fast-food chain willing to employ you in any neighborhood, rich or poor, to be able to get you that kind of money. No need to go to the library once you have that - just go to the ****ty fast food chain you work at and use their wifi.

basketballs would be 2 on cl

 

[StudyLater]

basketballs would be 2 on cl

I thought we were talking about education!

 

[Axes]

I don't think it's just URMs or people of low SES that are apathetic.

School's lame.

No I know, the first part was everyone, the second bit was about URMs. I thought school was lame up until a month ago or so.

 

[StudyLater]

No I know, the first part was everyone, the second bit was about URMs. I thought school was lame up until a month ago or so.

Really? Geez. It only gets worse as it goes on for me.

Can't wait for med school. Online ppts/recordings!!!!

Assuming I get in....

 

[NotYou20]

Anyone care to answer this one?

Sure. The number of white physicians is pretty much proportional to the general population. There would be no reason to increase the number of white docs.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

It's telling that one side is making actual logical points and conclusions, while the other looks like they just did a vocab dump from the index of an intro sociology textbook.

Hey at least it's good to see the TPR psyc/soc book being put to some use.

 

[Spector1]

Racism is not prejudice.

that's a new one

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Can I just say really quickly that this is exactly what groups like these do. I obviously haven't been following the whole argument and I'm not going to read 4 pages worth anytime soon with my, @Pusheen, and @StudyLater's MCAT this Saturday.

I see premeds making groups like this all the time. It's rampant on my university campus like a case of Spanish Flu. We have a freaking premed Greek organization starting up soon. Now all that is great but seriously, I don't understand how a group for people of color, for Asians, for Indians, Women, Men (lol my troll moment here), etc. is going to benefit anyone. If we're going into medicine, shouldn't we not have organizations and groups that divide by these lines and instead see each other as colleagues in the truest sense? Why should someone's gender, ethnicity, or orientation matter? I'm referring to premed groups and the like that are founded on the basis of a specific characteristic that allows them to unite as one. If you've done AAMC verbal passages, this whole idea of clubs for blacks, asians, indians, females, etc. reminds me of the verbal passage on "women writers who unit for political purposes". Organizations that are dedicated to fighting discrimination are a different story. I just don't find sense in premed clubs for ________ people.

Like, look what this Facebook group-link did. It set off a 4 page debate (I expect to increase) and while I haven't read it all, one side's argument seems to be off

 

[Axes]

that's a new one

It's not, actually. Racism is academically defined as prejudice+power.

 

[Axes]

Can I just say really quickly that this is exactly what groups like these do. I obviously haven't been following the whole argument and I'm not going to read 4 pages worth anytime soon with my, @Pusheen, and @StudyLater's MCAT this Saturday.

I see premeds making groups like this all the time. It's rampant on my university campus like a case of Spanish Flu. We have a freaking premed Greek organization starting up soon. Now all that is great but seriously, I don't understand how a group for people of color, for Asians, for Indians, Women, Men (lol my troll moment here), etc. is going to benefit anyone. If we're going into medicine, shouldn't we not have organizations and groups that divide by these lines and instead see each other as colleagues in the truest sense? Why should someone's gender, ethnicity, or orientation matter? I'm referring to premed groups and the like that are founded on the basis of a specific characteristic that allows them to unite as one. If you've done AAMC verbal passages, this whole idea of clubs for blacks, asians, indians, females, etc. reminds me of the verbal passage on "women writers who unit for political purposes". Organizations that are dedicated to fighting discrimination are a different story. I just don't find sense in premed clubs for ________ people.

Like, look what this Facebook group-link did. It set off a 4 page debate (I expect to increase) and while I haven't read it all, one side's argument seems to be off

You could read it before you say it seems off idk

Look man, people face a lot of social dynamics that necessitate safe spaces like these groups. It's okay, even expected, for you not to understand it. Don't join them.

 

[Pusheen]

Can I just say really quickly that this is exactly what groups like these do. I obviously haven't been following the whole argument and I'm not going to read 4 pages worth anytime soon with my, @Pusheen, and @StudyLater's MCAT this Saturday.

I see premeds making groups like this all the time. It's rampant on my university campus like a case of Spanish Flu. We have a freaking premed Greek organization starting up soon. Now all that is great but seriously, I don't understand how a group for people of color, for Asians, for Indians, Women, Men (lol my troll moment here), etc. is going to benefit anyone. If we're going into medicine, shouldn't we not have organizations and groups that divide by these lines and instead see each other as colleagues in the truest sense? Why should someone's gender, ethnicity, or orientation matter? I'm referring to premed groups and the like that are founded on the basis of a specific characteristic that allows them to unite as one. If you've done AAMC verbal passages, this whole idea of clubs for blacks, asians, indians, females, etc. reminds me of the verbal passage on "women writers who unit for political purposes". Organizations that are dedicated to fighting discrimination are a different story. I just don't find sense in premed clubs for ________ people.

Like, look what this Facebook group-link did. It set off a 4 page debate (I expect to increase) and while I haven't read it all, one side's argument seems to be off

I see some of the reason for these groups, as it is a way for people with similar life experiences or lifestyles to hang out. The problem starts when people in these groups get nasty with everyone else, making it an us vs them mentality, which defeats the entire purpose.
A couple of pages ago someone was like "allies of POC are welcome as well", implying that the status quo was not to be an ally. Group all you want, but don't call people outside your group racist/sexist/privileged/whatever other buzzword, because, quiet frankly, it's not true 99% of the time.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I see some of the reason for these groups, as it is a way for people with similar life experiences or lifestyles to hang out. The problem starts when people in these groups get nasty with everyone else, making it an us vs them mentality, which defeats the entire purpose.
A couple of pages ago someone was like "allies of POC are welcome as well", implying that the status quo was not to be an ally. Group all you want, but don't call people outside your group racist/sexist/privileged/whatever other buzzword, because, quiet frankly, it's not true 99% of the time.

Yeah I agree with you, good point. I guess I'm just tired of the cliques in the premed orgs on our campus. Esp when a lot of students and even officers are mostly all talk.

 

[Spector1]

Sure. The number of white physicians is pretty much proportional to the general population. There would be no reason to increase the number of white docs.

I would think that patients if they have no race preference would want the most competent and compassionate docs regardless of race. No need to advocate for quotas here.

You could read it before you say it seems off idk

Look man, people face a lot of social dynamics that necessitate safe spaces like these groups. It's okay, even expected, for you not to understand it. Don't join them.

all well and good but keep in mind, that safe spaces can often become echo chambers.

 

[Goro]

Tone it down, kids, or the banhammer will be rising.

 

[StudyLater]

safe spaces can often become echo chambers.

Sometimes the free exchange of ideas can be damaging to the morale, motivation and goals of a certain group. Consequently, isolation is preferential.

Down it down, kids, or the banhammer will be rising.

Goro answered my nature call.

 

[Noomm]

Down it down, kids, or the banhammer will be rising.

Yes. Let's quash any attempt at reasonable discourse.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

You could read it before you say it seems off idk

Look man, people face a lot of social dynamics that necessitate safe spaces like these groups. It's okay, even expected, for you not to understand it. Don't join them.

Dude, you could have created a FB page for premeds who own dogs and it would have started the debate we're currently in and there would be people claiming premeds who own dogs suffer from more stress and thus lower grades as a way to unite themselves.

Sorry if I'm sounding salty but anything can be justified in the eyes of the beholders

 

[StudyLater]

Yes. Let's quash any attempt at reasonable discourse.

Oh we can have reasonable discourse. 2 degrees and 3 licensing exams in the future.

 

[StudyLater]

Sorry if I'm sounding salty but anything can be justified in the eyes of the beholders

Yeah but I think this is more of a 1.5M NaI salty than a 12.5M mercuric chloride salty.

 

[Pusheen]

Dude, you could have created a FB page for premeds who own dogs and it would have started the debate we're currently in and there would be people claiming premeds who own dogs suffer from more stress and thus lower grades as a way to unite themselves.

Sorry if I'm sounding salty but anything can be justified in the eyes of the beholders

Oh we can have reasonable discourse. 2 degrees and 3 licensing exams in the future.

Lol, so much for going to bed early to prep for Saturday, you two

 

[StudyLater]

Lol, so much for going to bed early to prep for Saturday, you two

@TexasSurgeon is good. He'll just OD on melatonin.