facing dismissal

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slick27

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I have to appear infront of the evaluation committee within the next couple weeks. I have recently been diagnosed with a learning disability. What do you think my odds are to not be dismissed?
 
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That stinks!

There are a lot of variables that go into this, so a little info would help.
-What year are you?
-Did you fail a single class or multiple classes?
-How did you do in the terms/quarters/semesters/blocks prior to this one?
-IF you have struggled in previous terms/quarters/semesters/blocks, have you tried to get help from anyone (classmates, professors, counselors, tutors, etc)?
-What was the Dx?

I've known a couple of people that have gone to the promotions board, and it wasn't fun. They were allowed to stay, but had to 5th year (decelerated basic sciences). I don't know what school you are at, so I don't know how the process works. The biggest piece of advice I have is to be completely honest with the board, and do everything you can to fix the problem.

Good luck.
 
I am in my first year. I have failed multiple classes. I sought help from multiple sources, the best they could tell me was to study? But, telling a good student to study, is clearly dropping the ball (in my mind). Basically, they didn't offer any help.
 
What type of accommodations has the school given you so far? Shouldn't this learning disability have been figured out before med school? Or was it newly diagnosed with the failures?
 
it was newly diagnosed with the failures. My disability involve my ability to listen to lectures. I have trouble processing auditory language.
 
I don't know if you're protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act, but it's something to consider. I'd definitely speak with an attorney before you meet with the Pre-Clinical Promotions Committee. Good luck (wo)man, it's a **** situation to be in - I hope it works out for you.
 
Have you been in front of the progress committee before?

I'll try to be of some help as I was in your shoes a couple years ago. I failed a class, which is an automatic meeting with the PC. They looked over the classes before this and noticed a downward trend. Basically we (the dean, 4 or 5 assistant deans, various phase 2 course directors and me) discussed my shortcomings---this was the worst part of it all. I must have looked petrified entering because a course director who I was sure despised me for missing nearly all (if not all) her lectures calmly told me, 'This is no big deal, we are here to help'

In the end, they told me that I may have to study more and pressured me to get tested for various LD. Since I had a reason (maybe not legit) for my failure I did not pursue this avenue further.

A lot is going to be determined based on the timing of events. At what point was the LD diagnosed? What have you done to help yourself through your auditory learning troubles?

Also, are you truly up for dismissal (i.e. is this a dismissal hearing) or is that the worst case scenario?

I would definitely give these things a little thought (and pm me if you have any questions) before obtaining a lawyers opinion...also, please don't tell the progress committee that 'they' have not done enough to help you (even if its the truth). Take responsibility and have a feasible plan for remediation of prior failed courses as well as a plan to graduate. That is what they ultimately want to hear from you.

gl
 
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slick27 said:
it was newly diagnosed with the failures. My disability involve my ability to listen to lectures. I have trouble processing auditory language.
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Do they have recommended reading? Powerpoints of the lectures?
 
I'd ask to stay in and start over. Say that since you have learned about this, you will get some help learning new ways to study.
 
bigDinLV said:
Do they have recommended reading? Powerpoints of the lectures?
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Yeah, I was thinking this too. Does your school have a note-taking service? Most of the time I don't even bother listening to the lectures because the instructors simply read off the slides or go off on irrelevant and pointless tangents. This strategy has been working pretty well thus far.

How much time do you spend studying? That seems to be the biggest factor in success vs. failure in medical school.
 
We don't have the option of repeating the year at my school. I wish I could repeat the year, that would be the best situation to correct my knowlegde base. The student handbook, only allows for dismissal and possibility to reapply. But, once dismissed, I bet the odds of getting back in are slim, unless I can convey to the committee a reason for my failure, along with a solution.
 
There has to be some other option. Remediation, yes, probably.
If you have been diagnosed by neuropsych testing with a learning disability, BRING PROOF of this with you to your hearing. The letter that the tester writes should probably have in it recommendations for the school on how to accommodate your situation. If it doesn't, you could possibly contact whoever did the testing, and explain that you need that from them. I'm pretty sure that with specific recommendations (in print) they must at least make an effort to provide you with some kind of accommodations. Explain to them this is why you think you did not pass, and this is your plan for correcting the problem going forward. Show them you've given it thought and been proactive about what you can do.
 
I agree with the above, bring proof to your hearing. Also, bring a recommended course of action/treatment to help fix the issue. If you have a well-thought out plan, backed up by a specialist's opinion (also in writing), it will be harder for them to simply discard you. Even if you do get dismissed, as long as you can demonstrate to admissions committees that you have taken steps to address your problems, it is not impossible to get readmitted. I'm curious as to which school you're at, could you PM me that information, if you're comfortable. Either way good luck at your hearing!! :luck:
 
slick27 said:
it was newly diagnosed with the failures. My disability involve my ability to listen to lectures. I have trouble processing auditory language.
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Lots of interesting things here....I spent two years as a high school special education teacher working with kids with all different kinds of learning disabilities, so take my mostly not so very informed observations of two years working in this professionally and 21 credits of graduate school for what they're worth... my bank account will tell you not very much.

I may be able to talk to you about the learning disability more knowledgably than the dismissal policy, so PM if you so desire.

First, I wonder how this was not noticed earlier (high school) save for your ability to study at home from overly simplistic textbooks in high school that kept you out of failing range when there are paid professionals to assess this fact. I would ask if you were one of those who didn't do much paying attention in high school but did just fine in homework. Most high school classrooms are really geared to those who are the reading type learners. Yes, there are "lectures," but we all know how complex those lectures were and if you simply read the text you could survive quite fine.

A kid who has never "struggled" with a learning disability before in high school is really unlikely to find need in college. If you're degree is in some kind of bio/chem, I would ask if you spent a great deal of time studying for tests that probably didn't test your level of knowledge nearly to the level that medical school did, so again there was no real need to seek testing for a learning disability. Most science classes have textbooks you can read and absorb and do fine. If you're degree is in a non-traditional field, then the capacity to fake those classes is ridiculous. You can read the texts to those classes and do fine. Hell, I didn't read the texts and usually answered test essay questions with knowledge taken from all of the other social studies classes I had taken prior and wrote papers 2 hours before they were do and got B's. if only I would have written them 4 hours before and got A's....but I digress

That leaves us at you facing dismissal...I have no idea how these work, but I leave you with a couple observations. If they decide to show you the door, then your plan is clearly not with them. I would not take that as any form of failure, so much as an obstacle to be overcome. If this learning disability is real, then you have much to process over the next year while you reapply. I think it makes for the building of an entirely different personal statement that could quite possibly sway anybody. You'll have a diagnosed learning disability that you can spend a year learning how to adjust to putting you in a better position should you decide to reapply. If you are allowed to stay, I wouldn't bother going to any of the lectures as you're literally wasting all of the time you are spending in that class. If attendance is required, you can put in ear buds, put some symphonic in itunes and study while you're in class. Something to consider is by putting in ear buds and drowning out the auditory processing, you may be able to simply read the slides off the board and be fine.

I would agree with the complete and total honesty suggestion given above, especially with yourself. Make damn sure the reason you failed was because of the obstacles created by the disability, not the obstacles created by poor choices. If you know that to be the case, then you can go before them much more innocently than if you're trying to hide something.

You won't be protected by the Americans with Disability Act in taking the licensing exams. You may have some in the classes, but you still have to pass the tests and even then, trying to get modifications for the ACT takes a 6 month act of God...I imagine the COMLEX is a 30 second, "Umm, no!" If you're looking for people to discuss the legalities of your rights, consider contacting the Department of Education for your state and asking them for a list of special education advocates who might be able to help.

Good Luck to you..

Feel free to contact me about the disability and the assessments used if you want or anything else for that matter.

Regards
 
Tekar said:
First, I wonder how this was not noticed earlier (high school) save for your ability to study at home from overly simplistic textbooks in high school that kept you out of failing range when there are paid professionals to assess this fact. I would ask if you were one of those who didn't do much paying attention in high school but did just fine in homework. Most high school classrooms are really geared to those who are the reading type learners. Yes, there are "lectures," but we all know how complex those lectures were and if you simply read the text you could survive quite fine.

A kid who has never "struggled" with a learning disability before in high school is really unlikely to find need in college. If you're degree is in some kind of bio/chem, I would ask if you spent a great deal of time studying for tests that probably didn't test your level of knowledge nearly to the level that medical school did, so again there was no real need to seek testing for a learning disability. Most science classes have textbooks you can read and absorb and do fine. If you're degree is in a non-traditional field, then the capacity to fake those classes is ridiculous. You can read the texts to those classes and do fine. Hell, I didn't read the texts and usually answered test essay questions with knowledge taken from all of the other social studies classes I had taken prior and wrote papers 2 hours before they were do and got B's. if only I would have written them 4 hours before and got A's....but I digress

That leaves us at you facing dismissal...I have no idea how these work, but I leave you with a couple observations. If they decide to show you the door, then your plan is clearly not with them. I would not take that as any form of failure, so much as an obstacle to be overcome. If this learning disability is real, then you have much to process over the next year while you reapply. I think it makes for the building of an entirely different personal statement that could quite possibly sway anybody. You'll have a diagnosed learning disability that you can spend a year learning how to adjust to putting you in a better position should you decide to reapply. If you are allowed to stay, I wouldn't bother going to any of the lectures as you're literally wasting all of the time you are spending in that class. If attendance is required, you can put in ear buds, put some symphonic in itunes and study while you're in class. Something to consider is by putting in ear buds and drowning out the auditory processing, you may be able to simply read the slides off the board and be fine.

I would agree with the complete and total honesty suggestion given above, especially with yourself. Make damn sure the reason you failed was because of the obstacles created by the disability, not the obstacles created by poor choices. If you know that to be the case, then you can go before them much more innocently than if you're trying to hide something.

You won't be protected by the Americans with Disability Act in taking the licensing exams. You may have some in the classes, but you still have to pass the tests and even then, trying to get modifications for the ACT takes a 6 month act of God...I imagine the COMLEX is a 30 second, "Umm, no!" If you're looking for people to discuss the legalities of your rights, consider contacting the Department of Education for your state and asking them for a list of special education advocates who might be able to help.

Good Luck to you..

Feel free to contact me about the disability and the assessments used if you want or anything else for that matter.

Regards
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This is true, I was the kid that never paid attention to lectures in high school or college other than to take notes of the black board. I am complety visual with my learning style.

I do think my failure in medical school involves my learning disability and the school's teaching style. The school I am at only test what they cover in class, thus through oral communication. This hindered me in my attempt to learn the material that was most likely to be tested.

How can you tell if the learning disablity is real? I had it diagnosed through a neuropsychologist.

Also, if I do get dismissed, do you think the American with Disability Act will cover me?
 
slick27 said:
This is true, I was the kid that never paid attention to lectures in high school or college other than to take notes of the black board. I am complety visual with my learning style.

I do think my failure in medical school involves my learning disability and the school's teaching style. The school I am at only test what they cover in class, thus through oral communication. This hindered me in my attempt to learn the material that was most likely to be tested.

How can you tell if the learning disablity is real? I had it diagnosed through a neuropsychologist.

Also, if I do get dismissed, do you think the American with Disability Act will cover me?
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Not really, but even then to get some form of legal action or what have you, it'd push the limits of being worth your time because it probably would have been faster and cheaper to simply apply to other schools the next academic cycle. High schools don't simply reverse F's because of a newly diagnosed learning disability. The new diagnosis provides a means to find solutions to the the dillemmas that now exist, not repairing what has already been done. It seems to me that the older established schools seem to have the much stiffer dismissal policies, perhaps consider re-applying to newer schools. I know RVUCOM and TUNCOM's dismissal policies are far more lenient. RVUCOM is also known to give people who have been dismissed another chance.

The Americans with Disabilities Act in regards to higher education was never really intended to address kids with learning disabilities in medical school, so you'd probably be in some fairly new legal territory and I can tell you that the legal route is not fast and rarely provides solutions in the best interest of the plaintiff. Those solutions usually happen for the system and take place years later after appeals.

The diagnosis of the learning disability is only as good as the person administering the exam and the biases of the person taking the exam. There is no such assessment that is flawless and all of those currently in use have their validity issues the companies would never discuss in any formal manner...this from having administered more than a few academic assessments and seen the cognitive tests. Trust me, the gold standard IQ tests are ridiculously biased. In terms of the validity of a diagnosis of an auditory processing deficiency, you'll have to determine that yourself. You've probably got nothing to compare your experiences in medical school to, but I think you would find it worth your time to really ponder your academic history, alone. Don't bother thinking about high school classes with your friends, they'll bias your impressions, but really explore what classes you had the most "fun" in and which classes you had a feeling of dread for: "really? do I have to go to history? All that guy does is talk...." Read everything you can find on the internet about auditory processing issues and see how much it fits you. After you've educated yourself about yourself, begin to talk to your parents about their interpretations and concerns they had with you as a child, but may have never stated. I know for a fact my 11 year old son has fine motor issues and have believed that since he was in T-ball. My wife/his mom is only now starting to agree with me as we are continously seeing issues with organization, eating utensil use, and his use of a pencil/pen. I have never once said a word to him about it and I won't. You're looking for things like that.

If you have to take a year off, look at as though you've been handed a gift that no one else gets. You get to take a year off and relax during medical school allowing you to digest all that has been dumped into your brain. Read other things about health care not out of a medical text to fill in gaps from your first year. When you reapply and get interviews... you will... ask many questions about the presentation of information and how those assessments will work. You'll be in much more control of your interview than you were before, because you know you can get in, you did, but now you need to find a school that fits who you are, not the other way around. All the schools seem to be quite unique in how they approach the education of physicians, you'll know what to look for this time instead of suffering through 4-years at a school you hate because you didn't know the questions to ask.

Regards
 
Does your school not have a 5-year track? At my school, those of us who fail a few classes are either dismissed or put into a 5-year decelerated track. Obviously failing once in a decelerated program would lead right to dismissal, so that wasn't an option. I also had an issue that needed accommodation, and I truly believe my diagnosis helped the school to give me another chance instead of dismissing me. Although I struggled the first 2 quarters, I did really well and proved myself during this 3rd quarter after my courseload was lightened - my grades shot up incredibly. I also got tutoring (provided by the school) and learned how to manage my time better. I went from getting 68 (percent)s on exams to 98s and 100s. I think they should at least give you the chance to decel before outright dismissing you. I'm sure they'll want evidence of your problem - such as a note from your physician, and evidence showing that you have started treatment for your issues (though I have no idea if there is any medical-type treatment for your particular situation).

Even though I know your problem is auditory, I think audio-recording your lectures would most likely still be beneficial... because when you play it back, you can still stop and repeat if you don't pick things up the first time.
 
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Just had my dismissal meeting today. I think it went well. I tried to argue to allow me to repeat the year. We shall find out in a week.
 
slick27 said:
Just had my dismissal meeting today. I think it went well. I tried to argue to allow me to repeat the year. We shall find out in a week.
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Good Luck!!
 
if you have a learning disability, how did you get this far and and with medical school worthy-stats?
 
There is a lot more auditory instruction in medical school than there ever was in high school or college. It's called work ethic, people with learning disabilities are not dumb, we must work harder to compensate. I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and 29 mcat.
 
slick27 said:
There is a lot more auditory instruction in medical school than there ever was in high school or college. It's called work ethic, people with learning disabilities are not dumb, we must work harder to compensate. I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and 29 mcat.
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I get that. And perhaps I'm missing something or doing a poor job of properly framing my question.

If the problem is a difficulty in processing information which is presented to you in auditory fashion, then I take this to mean that when someone talks to you you have difficulty remembering the information, or putting it into a proper context, or some other issue.

So I still wonder what your plan is when you reach residency, and you have to deal with patients who will be explaining their woes to you (verbally) and you will have to quickly (at times) gather and process that verbally delivered information and come up with a proper reaction.

Work ethic is great and will get you very far when time is not an issue, but you often don't have that luxury in medicine... even more so during residency.
 
OP, its interesting you say that. Being a person who went through high school and undergrad taking no notes and studying pretty much nothing, I relied almost entirely on my auditory learning and remembering what I heard in class, and did fine. Med school has been a struggle for me because I feel there isn't enough auditory instruction. At least, it isn't the stuff they test us on! I guess it depends on the school and your own style. It seems true for a large number of classmates that what worked for them in undergrad doesn't work for them in med school.

In case it helps, I know of many students that make it to med school without finding out about some kind of learning issues, be that dyslexia or attention deficit, whatever. Sometimes these things aren't discovered until there's enough stress to uncover them.

Good luck - I hope the outcome is constructive for you!
 
I'm sorry man. Any idea on where you plan to go from here?
 
legal recourse here I come. What schools consider a dismissed student?
 
thepoopologist said:
The carribean. Try St George
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Seriously consider PA school or some other profession before this option. With a dismissal on your record + a Caribbean degree I'm not sure your odds of getting a residency are high enough to warrent the debt you'd take on.

Anyway if you have a diagnosed disability and they were aware of it I'd still say stop one is a lawyer. I'm sorry you have to go through this.
 
I agree, and pm me re lawyer advice. Good luck, and so sorry your appeal was denied.
 
slick27 said:
legal recourse here I come. What schools consider a dismissed student?
Click to expand...

There's a poster here by the name BonesDO who was dismissed. He took a year off to take classes/prove himself and re-applied. He ended up getting in and is starting at RVU this fall. He also got a few other interview invites and, I think, at least one other acceptance.

Hang in there. There are a lot of us out here rooting for you.
 
The Caribbean is a very, very bad idea. If I was in your shoes (and this may not be what you want to hear) ... I'd completely leave health care. Go into something more lucrative. Work hard and profit. Then you can smirk when you're making a decent living and your past peers are trudging through a residency while 200k in debt.
 
JaggerPlate said:
The Caribbean is a very, very bad idea. If I was in your shoes (and this may not be what you want to hear) ... I'd completely leave health care. Go into something more lucrative. Work hard and profit. Then you can smirk when you're making a decent living and your past peers are trudging through a residency while 200k in debt.
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Yeah, you tell me what profession is going to net that much income in this economy?
 
Revilla said:
There's a poster here by the name BonesDO who was dismissed. He took a year off to take classes/prove himself and re-applied. He ended up getting in and is starting at RVU this fall. He also got a few other interview invites and, I think, at least one other acceptance.

Hang in there. There are a lot of us out here rooting for you.
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Yea, I also remember there was a post of a student who was dismissed and made a list of schools that allowed/encouraged him to apply and he was accepted after a year. Do a search on SDN it should come up.
 
JaggerPlate said:
The Caribbean is a very, very bad idea. If I was in your shoes (and this may not be what you want to hear) ... I'd completely leave health care. Go into something more lucrative. Work hard and profit. Then you can smirk when you're making a decent living and your past peers are trudging through a residency while 200k in debt.
Click to expand...

damn, it's that easy,
walk in, ask for a job and a lot of money, and walk out?
 
gatewasani said:
damn, it's that easy,
walk in, ask for a job and a lot of money, and walk out?
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Yeah, that's exactly what I said ... 🙄

Ironically enough, I'm always the person who is bashing on others who think medicine is the only hard thing in life and they could have majored in "business" and own a yacht at 25. However, most people who have the aptitude and work ethic to be accepted into medical school could also succeed in other areas of life. It's really not unreasonable to think that in 3-9 years (assuming he's a first year so has 3 years of school left + 3-6 years in residency - just rough numbers) he could be making 50-80k doing something else while his peers are 200k in debt, making 45k a year, working 70 hour weeks in residency.
 
Hahaha, guys, guys ....

I'm not bashing medicine here. I'm going into it, and I've also worked in several other areas of "life" (aka -business) and I do not enjoy it, overrated in a LOT of cases, etc, etc. My point, was simply that his life isn't over and he can definitely go on to do other things, still earn, and will probably have a better quality of life for the next few years while his peers are in rotations and residency.

Not trying to say anything crazy here ...
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yeah, that's exactly what I said ... 🙄

Ironically enough, I'm always the person who is bashing on others who think medicine is the only hard thing in life and they could have majored in "business" and own a yacht at 25. However, most people who have the aptitude and work ethic to be accepted into medical school could also succeed in other areas of life. It's really not unreasonable to think that in 3-9 years (assuming he's a first year so has 3 years of school left + 3-6 years in residency - just rough numbers) he could be making 50-80k doing something else while his peers are 200k in debt, making 45k a year, working 70 hour weeks in residency.
Click to expand...

There is actually a nice article (http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html) by an ED doc which shows how an UPS driver can earn more than a typical physician in his or her lifetime (we are talking typical physicians here folks not the neurosurgeon who banks a million a year). The one thing medicine has that no other field can really brag about is job security; we will always be needed.
 
this is my thread...lets turn it back to me.
 
Jamers said:
There is actually a nice article (http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html) by an ED doc which shows how an UPS driver can earn more than a typical physician in his or her lifetime (we are talking typical physicians here folks not the neurosurgeon who banks a million a year). The one thing medicine has that no other field can really brag about is job security; we will always be needed.
Click to expand...

Obama and nurse practitioners feel otherwise .... :scared:
 
Re: Legal Recourse

I'm not sure. The school didn't fail to accommodate your disability and can't retroactively apply a diagnosis to your previous failures. If the disability would have been known since Day 1 and no accommodation occurred you would have an ADA case. But, talk to a lawyer and see what can be done. And, reapply. You have too much to lose.
 
OP, sorry to hear what is happening to you. I hope things work out for you.

I've never heard of this type of disability so forgive me for my ignorance. And help me understand your disability a little better.

From what I got out of it, you're having a hard time processing information when it is delivered in an auditory mode. So this means you get very little out of listening/watching lectures.

How about processing information from a different mode? Are you able to read out of powerpoints, textbooks, review books, scribe notes, etc. and process info?

I realize that we all have different style of learning that is why I wonder if you could benefit from totally abandoning trying to listen/watch lectures, and just stick to notes, books, etc.?

Also, I wanted to quote this resident's post below, and I think he makes valid points. Have you sat down and seriously considered the effect this learning disability, now that it has been diagnosed and you're aware of it, will have on you as a future physician?

Best of luck to you, my friend. I hope you figure out what is best for you and it all works out.

Doctor Bob said:
I get that. And perhaps I'm missing something or doing a poor job of properly framing my question.

If the problem is a difficulty in processing information which is presented to you in auditory fashion, then I take this to mean that when someone talks to you you have difficulty remembering the information, or putting it into a proper context, or some other issue.

So I still wonder what your plan is when you reach residency, and you have to deal with patients who will be explaining their woes to you (verbally) and you will have to quickly (at times) gather and process that verbally delivered information and come up with a proper reaction.

Work ethic is great and will get you very far when time is not an issue, but you often don't have that luxury in medicine... even more so during residency.
Click to expand...
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yeah, that's exactly what I said ... 🙄

Ironically enough, I'm always the person who is bashing on others who think medicine is the only hard thing in life and they could have majored in "business" and own a yacht at 25. However, most people who have the aptitude and work ethic to be accepted into medical school could also succeed in other areas of life. It's really not unreasonable to think that in 3-9 years (assuming he's a first year so has 3 years of school left + 3-6 years in residency - just rough numbers) he could be making 50-80k doing something else while his peers are 200k in debt, making 45k a year, working 70 hour weeks in residency.
Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. If the OP went to medical school because he wanted to be a doctor (as opposed to doing it for his parents, etc.), then he should try to see that dream through if that's still what he wants. Considering he was just diagnosed with a learning disability that obviously affected his work, he shouldn't allow one school to tell him he doesn't have what it takes. Not without giving himself a decent chance after working with educational coaches to figure out the best study method for him. If it turns out he can't get a handle on this, it might then be time to consider other fields.

If I gave up my dream -- only a month or so after finding the key to what was holding me back -- because I was dismissed, I think I'd be bitter and angry at MYSELF for not giving myself a chance to cope with my disability and maneuver around it to succeed.
 
I know LMU has taken students who were dismissed for failing multiple classes multiple times at other med schools. I hear those students are doing ok now, but don't know any particulars other than that.

UNE will let you repeat courses and years you have failed, but I don't think they'll take anyone dismissed from another school (at least I haven't heard of any such students at UNE).

I also recall Bones got into RVU. His trials and attempts to regain admission to med school are documented here on SDN if you do a search.

I don't know of any other med schools that have taken students with previous medical school problems.
 
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