Failed Premeds

[Lion-O]

It's interesting to me that at first glance, medical school doesn't seem all that hard to get into. After all, roughly 50% of applicants get in. And especially on these boards, you rarely ever hear people talk about failing as a premed, or not getting in somewhere. It's sort of disillusioning; it makes you forget that, by far, the vast majority of people who were ever premed have failed.

I don't mean to be insensitive, or anything like that. I believe I'm trying (and hopefully succeeding) to perhaps draw attention to a world that many of us, who I'm sure are incredibly thankful, don't have to experience. I personally know 2 people who, after receiving their MCAT score, decided not to apply to medical school. It's almost morbidly funny the way we talk about a 30 on the MCAT as an average score, when in fact, it's near the 75th percentile. 75 out of 100 premeds would have loved to get a 30 on the MCAT.

Do you think it hurts any less if you quit before applying? Or is it compounded by applying and not getting in anywhere? I myself have lurked on these boards for near 2 years; I was always afraid that if I got too involved in the premed community that I might jinx my chances of getting in.

I'm trying not to be pessimistic/optimistic/humble/patronizing... I think I just find it interesting. I mean, for every one person on this board that asks the seemingly normal question of, "which school should I go to, x or y?" there are probably 100s if not 1000s of failed premeds who have dreamed of being able to ask such a question.

Alas, sorry for the long post. Hope I gave you something to ponder.

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[(nicedream)]

I think everyone, assuming they have a certain amount of intelligence, can get in eventually. It just would take longer for some than others. I don't think applying and getting rejected is so bad because you always have options and don't have to forget about it altogether. There's always graduate school, post-bac, doing other things to strengthen your application. In other words, it ain't over 'til it's over. I think anyone that applies once, gets rejected everywhere, and doesn't try again, or people that decide not to apply at all after a low MCAT score, are quitters.

 

[Alexander99]

I think there's a figure that ~70% of students that considered themselves "premed" at some point eventually quits. I'm inclined to believe that number because I remember freshman year, everyone (especially Asian students) seemed to be premed. By the second year, it was half those people. By the third year, only a handful remained. It almost seems like this whole process is a game of survival.

I do believe though that if you're serious and dedicated about becoming a physician, you will get into a med school. I think it's those people that are half-ass about it that end up not making it, which is a good thing.

For example, one of my TAs (although a cool guy) applied to med school his second time around this year. The first time, he got a few waitlists but didn't get in anywhere. This time around, I don't think he even got any interviews. He immediately changed his mind and said he's going to do pharm (I later found out that he simultaneously applied to a pharm school while applying to med schools this year.) I think he kind of revealed that he wasn't 100% serious about a career in medicine. I think he's more set on a career in health.

 

[MErc44]

It's interesting to me that at first glance, medical school doesn't seem all that hard to get into. After all, roughly 50% of applicants get in. And especially on these boards, you rarely ever hear people talk about failing as a premed, or not getting in somewhere. It's sort of disillusioning; it makes you forget that, by far, the vast majority of people who were ever premed have failed.

I don't mean to be insensitive, or anything like that. I believe I'm trying (and hopefully succeeding) to perhaps draw attention to a world that many of us, who I'm sure are incredibly thankful, don't have to experience. I personally know 2 people who, after receiving their MCAT score, decided not to apply to medical school. It's almost morbidly funny the way we talk about a 30 on the MCAT as an average score, when in fact, it's near the 75th percentile. 75 out of 100 premeds would have loved to get a 30 on the MCAT.

Do you think it hurts any less if you quit before applying? Or is it compounded by applying and not getting in anywhere? I myself have lurked on these boards for near 2 years; I was always afraid that if I got too involved in the premed community that I might jinx my chances of getting in.

I'm trying not to be pessimistic/optimistic/humble/patronizing... I think I just find it interesting. I mean, for every one person on this board that asks the seemingly normal question of, "which school should I go to, x or y?" there are probably 100s if not 1000s of failed premeds who have dreamed of being able to ask such a question.

Alas, sorry for the long post. Hope I gave you something to ponder.

last time i checked 75 percent was average.

 

[indo]

last time i checked 75 percent was average.

He was talking about percentiles. 50th percentile is average...errr....well, its the mean.

 

[Mr Reddly]

Yes, there is a huge drop off after the MCAT.
They list the number of people who take the mcat each time (total as well as first timers)
They also list the number of people applying to medschool... The numbers don't match up.
Also, the average score on the MCAT is 24-27 (can't quite remember), but the average score for the applicants is even higher. Thus, people said "My score is not good enough, I'm not applying" I co-worker of mine, a JHU grad btw, did just that this last year. ...Basically, we self-select our selves. (go fig)

Also, 50% is the ratio NOW. 5-10 years ago, it wasn't so easy.

I think everyone, assuming they have a certain amount of intelligence, can get in eventually. It just would take longer for some than others. I don't think applying and getting rejected is so bad because you always have options and don't have to forget about it altogether. There's always graduate school, post-bac, doing other things to strengthen your application. In other words, it ain't over 'til it's over. I think anyone that applies once, gets rejected everywhere, and doesn't try again, or people that decide not to apply at all after a low MCAT score, are quitters.

Those seem like rather harsh words. I remember having a conversation with a kid. He was president of the premed club, worked in the premed office, and didn't get in on his first try. I was going for my 3rd try, and he was on his 2nd. His comment was that he wouldn't waste any more of his life trying again after the 2nd attempt. Looking back, I'm still not sure who was smarter: me for getting in on the 4th try (oh, 3.59 & 35 BTW) or someone who changes their career path earlier and never looks back.

I was lucky in that I had a career as an electrical engineer to fall back on while dealing with the re-apps. But I do understand those who opt out of the race. It isn't easy to get this constant stream of rejections year after year, to take the time to fill out the secondaries, and then to fly all over the place for interviews, and hold down a job in the real world. I think the most difficult part for me came from the realization that I meant something to the people I worked with, that I had a purpose, and that medicine was more of a pipe dream. The 5th year (and 4th app cycle) was almost an impossible thing to do. And I think that without the support of some MDs at the company I worked for and some amazing medical experiances through work for my secondaries, I wouldn't have made it. Although I had been working for 4 years, I was never able to simply slow down and think "this is my career". I was always thinking about it as a temp thing until I got into med school. It would have been nice to be able to settle down, buy my first house, buy a nice sports car with all the money I was earning, and to just forget about medicine... but I couldn't

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that unless you have been through at least 2 rounds of rejections (the ego shock alone is difficult enough for us over achievers), don't be too harsh on those who opt out. Some of them may "be quitters", but not all. In fact, I'm kinda envious of the guy at work. He got the bug, took a prep class and the MCAT, and then decided not to go through this hell. There are so many other roads he can take.

.... Damn. I didn't mean to write this much. Must be past my bed time.

 

[mikeyboy]

He was talking about percentiles. 50th percentile is average...errr....well, its the mean.

It's been a while since high school stats, but isn't 50th percentile the median?

Anyway, I'm sure the reason it doesn't get discussed is because people who don't get in don't like to talk about it. That, and I bet that a lot of the people who say they're pre-med but really just say that without really considering what it entails wouldn't be browsing these forums.

 

[Blade28]

Very true. People on these forums tend to post their successes, as well, for whatever reason. It's more rare to read a thread on someone not getting in (unless you're in the Re-Applicants forum).

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Yes, there is a huge drop off after the MCAT.
They list the number of people who take the mcat each time (total as well as first timers)
They also list the number of people applying to medschool... The numbers don't match up.
Also, the average score on the MCAT is 24-27 (can't quite remember), but the average score for the applicants is even higher. Thus, people said "My score is not good enough, I'm not applying" I co-worker of mine, a JHU grad btw, did just that this last year. ...Basically, we self-select our selves. (go fig)

Also, 50% is the ratio NOW. 5-10 years ago, it wasn't so easy.



Those seem like rather harsh words. I remember having a conversation with a kid. He was president of the premed club, worked in the premed office, and didn't get in on his first try. I was going for my 3rd try, and he was on his 2nd. His comment was that he wouldn't waste any more of his life trying again after the 2nd attempt. Looking back, I'm still not sure who was smarter: me for getting in on the 4th try (oh, 3.59 & 35 BTW) or someone who changes their career path earlier and never looks back.

I was lucky in that I had a career as an electrical engineer to fall back on while dealing with the re-apps. But I do understand those who opt out of the race. It isn't easy to get this constant stream of rejections year after year, to take the time to fill out the secondaries, and then to fly all over the place for interviews, and hold down a job in the real world. I think the most difficult part for me came from the realization that I meant something to the people I worked with, that I had a purpose, and that medicine was more of a pipe dream. The 5th year (and 4th app cycle) was almost an impossible thing to do. And I think that without the support of some MDs at the company I worked for and some amazing medical experiances through work for my secondaries, I wouldn't have made it. Although I had been working for 4 years, I was never able to simply slow down and think "this is my career". I was always thinking about it as a temp thing until I got into med school. It would have been nice to be able to settle down, buy my first house, buy a nice sports car with all the money I was earning, and to just forget about medicine... but I couldn't

I guess what I'm trying to say, Noah, is that unless you have been through at least 2 rounds of rejections (the ego shock alone is difficult enough for us over achievers), don't be too harsh on those who opt out. Some of them may "be quitters", but not all. In fact, I'm kinda envious of the guy at work. He got the bug, took a prep class and the MCAT, and then decided not to go through this hell. There are so many other roads he can take.

.... Damn. I didn't mean to write this much. Must be past my bed time.

Very well said. Also...congratulations on your admission to med schoool!!! I really admire the fact that you hung in there year after year...and didn't let any of those rejections get you down to the point where you felt like quitting. You had the perserverence and drive to stay in and keep trying...I think that's pretty awesome man.

 

[KatieOConnor]

It took you four tries to get in with a 3.59 and a 35?!?! Hearing that makes me really nervous!

Congrats on finally making it though!

 

[freesolo]

It took you four tries to get in with a 3.59 and a 35?!?! Hearing that makes me really nervous!

Congrats on finally making it though!

and an electrical engineering degree which makes him unique =o.
The bad part about getting rejected is telling people about in my opinion, or being asked about how it was going, especially when your fully committed to it, and telling everyone you want to be a doctor. I try to avoid telling anyone, that im a premed =o.

 

[ad_sharp]

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I can remember starting out with about a million other premeds at my school. After every semester, a few more would be gone-especially during ochem. Seeing everyone around me changing majors and/or dropping made me very nervouse before the MCAT. There are two girls in particular who come to mind. They were great students, and I thought that they would make great doctors, but both performed poorly on the MCAT. Many dropped before they were locked into the major to the point of no return, but these two are stuck with a degree that they didn't necessarily want and no med school to go to. Four years down the drain. Yeah, sure they at least got a degree, but it sucks to spend four years trying to do something and not have any chance at it unless something changes. Anyhoo, for those of us who do get in (and I think most on SDN have/will) we should remember how lucky we really are.

*Pours out a 40 for the hommies that didn't make it*

 

[ChE_Babe]

Mr Reddly -

I was starting to think that I was going to be in your shoes and have to reapply next year (Chemical Engineering, 3.51, 31), but I was accepted off of a waitlist this weekend! I don't know if I could have done 4 cycles...even if I could have I'm pretty sure my husband couldn't have dealt with it well (he likes to have a plan, this year has been hard on him!).

I am curious, was your 35 the MCAT score the original score you applied with or was that a retake between cycles? What was it that improved your application enough to get in?

Note: In case anyone is thinking 3.51/31 and she got in, 3.59/35 and he took four tries? (Fair enough--I thought it!) I'm guessing that the fact that I have lived/studied in England and Africa may be the big difference in our profiles, so here's a plug for study abroad!

ChE

 

[twinklz]

I think everyone, assuming they have a certain amount of intelligence, can get in eventually. It just would take longer for some than others. I don't think applying and getting rejected is so bad because you always have options and don't have to forget about it altogether. There's always graduate school, post-bac, doing other things to strengthen your application. In other words, it ain't over 'til it's over. I think anyone that applies once, gets rejected everywhere, and doesn't try again, or people that decide not to apply at all after a low MCAT score, are quitters.

Wow, thats a tad harsh. First of all you make it seem like the "certain amount of intelligence" is something that everyone has. I don't believe that you need to be incredibly intelligent to become a physician, but you do have to be smart. Some people I know who couldn't make it just aren't that smart (in the way needed to become a physician). They tried longer and harder than me. I almost feel guilty that I "fell" into this premed thing 2 years a go, took all the prereqs, MCAT, and now I'm headed off to medical school.

The people who don't continue applying year after year or realize that no matter how much more they study their MCAT score will not improve enough might just be realistic. They realize their margin of success is slim to none so they decide to cut their losses and try to make the best of it. I have to admire these people who go on and attempt to make their dreams match their capabilities instead of potentially wasting years of their lives and lots $$. And, yes, this hit a little close to home as some of my best friends are the aforementioned "quitters."

 

[kaikai128]

I think it is unfair to say that everyone who wants to get in can. I have many friends who would have loved to get in, tried for several cycles, and for whatever reason did not get in. Finally, they decided they had to give up because continually trying to get into medical school was not putting food on their tables or clothing their kids. I think that many of the people on this board are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to gettting into medical school. I know, for one, that I don't have stats near as good as some of you and have worked my a$$ off for 4 years.

 

[Lion-O]

They were great students, and I thought that they would make great doctors, but both performed poorly on the MCAT. Many dropped before they were locked into the major to the point of no return, but these two are stuck with a degree that they didn't necessarily want and no med school to go to. Four years down the drain.

Not to freak anyone out who's currently taking the MCAT, but it is amazing how much import it has. Not only is it important in admissions (on par with GPA), but it comes at the end of a premed career, after all the hard work has been put in. You could have a 4.0, completed tons of ECs, love medicine, and basically devoted your life to getting in. But if you do very poorly on the MCAT, all was for nought. As I'm sure many people did, I delayed my application until after I had received my MCAT scores.

I think an analogous situation is the college basketball player who makes himself eligible for the draft before he graduates, but goes undrafted. Then he can't go back to school, and he can't play pro-ball. Ok, maybe it's not too analogous. But it contains the element of devoting your life to something and not achieving it due to one event.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

have worked my a$$ off for 4 years.

I think it is funny how you used the $$$ signs to get past the censor, but might have unintentionally come across another point. This process on average is not cheap!

 

[kaikai128]

hahaha...very good point...obviously was not thinking of that when I typed it. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

hahaha...very good point...obviously was not thinking of that when I typed it. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

You will also be paying out of the a$$ if you know what I mean... eh hehehe... oh never mind...

a little too corny... even for me...

 

[gschl1234]

Looking back, I'm still not sure who was smarter: me for getting in on the 4th try (oh, 3.59 & 35 BTW) or someone who changes their career path earlier and never looks back.QUOTE]

Yikes! I feel lucky to get in this year. Did you have that MCAT when you applied the first time? Were the adcoms worried since you were an electrical engineer? I mean, did they think you just wanted to do medcine for fun since you already had a career? (I've met this one former trader who seems to be doing it for fun). I don't see why it took 4 tries.

 

[tugbug]

I guess I'm one of the "quitters". I applied in 1995 and 1996 with good GPA and MCAT, but was not accepted. After 2 years of applying, and getting no real suggestions from ADCOM directors (or anyone else) about why in the world I wasnt getting accepted... I made a knee-jerk decision to go very far away from Med school (and any other career where the prerequisite was a group of strangers deciding whether or not I "get a shot").

As for whether it is less painful to apply and be rejected vs. not applying at all. Well, it is pretty painful to be rejected. For those of you who havent experienced this - have a friend hit you in the stomach with a BBall bat daily for a couple of months... then spend a few years answering the "How is med school?" or "I thought you were going to be a doctor?" questions for all of the people you had told for years that you were going to be a doctor. Still, IMO, trying and failing is probably less painful than all of the "What ifs" of never even applying.

Anyway, stopping applying IS quitting for some people... for others its just a good choice. I just wanted to add my experience to the conversation. If you are thinking of quitting what is still your dream... don't, unless you really have NO shot. It wont go away. You'll find yourself 7 years into another career thinking about applying. At least I did. The good news is I will be starting Med school in the fall... so, this crap is (at least partly) behind me... although, I still have to deal with this big chip on my shoulder, but thats good motivation to show what these schools missed out on...lol.

 

[gschl1234]

congrats tugbug! Good luck next year.

Do you guys remember that guy you applied 5 years strait with a degree from MIT and a 36 MCAT? I'm wondering whether some really qualified, dedicated people just fall through the cracks?

 

[tugbug]

I remember that guy. I think I read a post where someone described something specific he had done (?poster knew the guy?) to mess his app up. Still, I think there are definitely people who have good stats and a strong app., with no obvious problems... that dont get in. Probably not many though. Id say the guy on this thread who got in after 4 yrs is an example. I believe I was too. The difference between being accepted and not is probably not as big as all of the accepted think... Its not always that the rejected were not deserving in some important way.

 

[gschl1234]

You definitely have a point tugbug, but maybe another problem is not applying ot a wide enough range of schools? Applying too late? Maybe even bad interviewing. The worst is when you say something that shoots you in the foot but you don't even know it. For example, a friend of mine was interviewing for a job with Texas Instruments and when asked how he'd like living in TX, he said "I think it's great, but my fiance hates it." He thought the interview went well until his fiance told him it didn't. He didn't get the job (but it all worked out cause he was offered a better one later). Who knows.

 

[tugbug]

MY SCORE WAS 22!!!Does this make me deserving or not??? I had a 3.8 g.p.a at the time and it is higher now. I think my life experiences, grades,responsibilities, and ability to juggle all that life dealt me made me deserving.
MY GOAL NOW is without all those responsibilities anymore is to succeed now that I have been given this wonderful opportunity!!!

Chalkette, congrats on the acceptance. Who really knows who is "deserving or not"... But, imagine the frustration of applicants who have higher stats -AND believe they have all of the other INTANGIBLES you describe, but dont get in. I can remember looking at apps with stats like yours and thinking it was unfair. But in big bold letters, CONGRATS and GOOD LUCK... meaning Im not saying you dont deserve what youve gotten.

 

[JohnDO]

The good news is I will be starting Med school in the fall..

Congrats man!!

I've come to the conclusion that getting into medical school is a combination of heart, work ethic, and intelligence. Many people just don't want it as bad as they thought. I believe anyone with average intelligence who wants to be a doctor so bad it eats them up inside will work as hard as they can--with good results. However, remove one of the three (heart, intelligence, work ethic) and you're somewhat handicapped in the process.

My dad always tells me a story of a premed that was a year ahead of him who shamelesly declared he was in it for the money. When my dad visited the medical school (as a senior), he talked to the guy. He said he absolutely hated medical school and was considering dropping out. Moral of the story: your heart has to be there.

As a senior in college, I don't come across any freshman in my classes. However, I have had the opportunity to somewhat "mentor" a highschool senior soon-to-be premed student. After talking to him and some of his friends, I've concluded that many people really have no idea what they're getting into. (Try it for yourself: find a gen chem1 class and ask some of them what their major is. See how many of them will say "premed".) The naivity is almost disheartening. Just the other day we were at a bookstore and I pulled out a "how to get into medical school" book for him to look at. In it, they had a list of specialties and the avg. salary for each. Shocked that all doctors do not make half a million dollars a year, he looked up at me and said "this must be after malpractice". I was like, uh, no buddy. That 200k is before the 40 some odd percent taken by the government, the 50k+ for malpractice [variable depending on specialty], the expenses for your office and secretaries. I could almost see his exectations deflating. It wasn't necessarily my intent to discourage him, I just wanted to be realistic with him.

These are the sorts of people who get "weeded" out in the process. Sometimes I'm glad that getting into medical school no easy task. Although its extremely stressful for those of us who really burn to be a doctor and are willing to work our tails off for it, it helps weed out those who aren't.

The real premeds, and most likely to make it through the process, are the ones who know what they're getting into, and will do anything it takes to get there.

 

[tugbug]

These are the sorts of people who get "weeded" out in the process. Sometimes I'm glad that getting into medical school no easy task. Although its extremely stressful for those of us who really burn to be a doctor and are willing to work our tails off for it, it helps weed out those who aren't.

The real premeds, and most likely to make it through the process, are the ones who know what they're getting into, and will do anything it takes to get there.

JohnDO, no doubt lots of people who lack one the three things you describe get weeded out... but there are lots of examples of people WITH these three that dont get a shot as well. That idea seems to be lost on many of the posters on this board.

Thanks for the 'congrats' and good luck.

 

[Gleevec]

My friend who is prelaw told me that at the beginning of freshman year when they do the pre-professional mass clinic where they give info books out, that the prelaw group was next door to the premed group. The premed room was a very large lecture hall that was full, while the prelaw room was only about half full.

The prelaw dean starts off by saying "Dont worry that there arent that many of you yet, there are a lot more law applicants here. Theyre just all next door [at the premed meeting] and just don't know it yet"

 

[getcloned]

to comment on one of the first posts on the thread...

roughly 50,000 people apply for ~15,000 seats.

 

[snapdad]

Anyway, stopping applying IS quitting for some people... for others its just a good choice. I just wanted to add my experience to the conversation. If you are thinking of quitting what is still your dream... don't, unless you really have NO shot. It wont go away. You'll find yourself 7 years into another career thinking about applying. At least I did. The good news is I will be starting Med school in the fall... so, this crap is (at least partly) behind me... although, I still have to deal with this big chip on my shoulder, but thats good motivation to show what these schools missed out on...lol.

This has been exactly my experience as well. It never does go away, and finally you just have to admit that either you do something about it and apply, or accept that it's going to bug you the rest of your life. I wish I would have had this realization about six years ago...it would have saved me a lot of time and stress.

 

[Lion-O]

My friend who is prelaw told me that at the beginning of freshman year when they do the pre-professional mass clinic where they give info books out, that the prelaw group was next door to the premed group. The premed room was a very large lecture hall that was full, while the prelaw room was only about half full.

The prelaw dean starts off by saying "Dont worry that there arent that many of you yet, there are a lot more law applicants here. Theyre just all next door [at the premed meeting] and just don't know it yet"

That's a funny little anecdote. I wonder how many people just want to be a professional of some sort. It's pretty foreign to me to group medical school with other professional schools; I've always tended to see it more similar to science and would group it there. If I didn't go to med school, it'd be grad school in science for me.

 

[bigdan]

Nice thread.
There seems to be a bit of a selection process set up throughout the system...Organic Chemistry is one such selector, and the MCAT is another. I tend to find determination as the common denominator in all this...MUCH more so than inherent intelligence. And that determination is the factor needed to get through med school (remember, things aren't going to stop being tough one we're accepted).

I agree with the posters that have identified concern with or experience with having to tell others that you didn't get in after all...I am dreading that day, but I help use that too for motivation on those days that I don't wanna even try to do another bit of carbonyl chemistry.

And there was one poster that identified 50k applicants for 15k spots...I've never heard numbers that high...

dc

 

[RoccoWJ]

Here is an interesting statistic that I wonder about:

What are the chances of an individual whe directly enters college premed, being accepted into one of his/her top 3 medical schools?

Any takers?


Rocco

 

[kaikai128]

Comment on the story about the pre-med turned pre-law...I know several people who took the MCAT and LSAT over the same summer, and used law school as their "fall-back" plan. I know of at least 4 now that were rejected from med school and accepted into law...

 

[Mr Reddly]

in 2003, there were 34,786 applicants for 16,538 spots.
Of these, 26,160 people were first time applicants
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003summary.htm


57,571 people sat for the MCAT in 2002 (for the 2003 cycle above).
Of these, 38,515 people were first time takers.
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2002.pdf


Last year 58,478 people sat for the MCAT.
Of these, 39,866 people were first time takers.
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2003.pdf


(in 1996, there were 46,965 applicants for 16,201 spots)

 

[Mr Reddly]

Did you have that MCAT when you applied the first time?

no. 31

Were the adcoms worried since you were an electrical engineer? I mean, did they think you just wanted to do medcine for fun since you already had a career?

I actually didn't already have a career. I just took the MCAT as a senior and had started my first job during the first app cycle.

I don't see why it took 4 tries.

*in a yoda voice* "That is why I failed. " *in a yoda voice*

 

[tugbug]

So, roughly half of the people that apply get accepted. My guess is that 1 in 5 people who start out pre-med actually go on to apply (my experience and discussions here make that guess seem conservative, IMO).

That means that coming out of HS, roughly 150,000 people per year are "pre-med". So, 150K for 17,000 spots.

Of the 17,000 accepted, I'll guess 30% get into one of their top 3. So, odds of a person coming from HS and ultimately getting into one of their top 3 schools is 5100/150000, or 3.4%. That could be way off... but you asked for a guess.

 

[(nicedream)]

Ok, I've gotten a lot of people disagreeing with my notion that anyone who stops trying to get into medschool is a quitter.

First off, Mr Reddly, how'd you know my name??

As for my comments:
If someone wants to be a doctor, I believe that anyone (assuming they have a certain amount of intelligence which I don't believe is that great in relation to people who are graduating from college) who is devoted to that goal can do it. The vast majority of people who decide to not try after an MCAT score, or stop trying after a cycle of rejections, are willing only to go to US MD schools. That simply is a lack of devotion to becoming a doctor - it's stubborn ignorance. Let me make it clear that I'm not talking about people who choose US MD over these other options, or who keep trying for US MD. I'm talking about those who try US MD, and upon not getting in, quit altogether. They are deciding to do another career as opposed to attending DO or caribbean MD school all because of their own pride/ignorance. Before you flame me for that, think about it - there could be no other reason. Whether you're a graduate of a US MD school, a DO school, or a caribbean school you will be a doctor doing what you supposedly wanted to do more than anything else (of course there is the potential worry with caribbean schools of getting a residency, but that aside). The only people who have no chance of getting into any form of medical school are those with gpa's below a 2.5 (who probably would realize medschool's out of the question very early in their college career and never get to the stage of MCAT/applying) and those who consistently score well below a 20 on the MCAT ( I emphasize well below, because people have been accepted with 18's etc). Has anyone heard of anyone who kept on trying and trying and trying but just could not score above a 15??

 

[patzan]

I've never known anyone personally who got below a 15.
Also, most of the people I talk to have high 20's and low 30's. Where are all these people getting low twenties and teens?

 

[Mr Reddly]

First off, Mr Reddly, how'd you know my name??

Elementary my dear Watson!

 

[Mr Reddly]

I was starting to think that I was going to be in your shoes and have to reapply next year (Chemical Engineering, 3.51, 31), but I was accepted off of a waitlist this weekend!

I am curious, was your 35 the MCAT score the original score you applied with or was that a retake between cycles? What was it that improved your application enough to get in?

Note: In case anyone is thinking 3.51/31 and she got in, 3.59/35 and he took four tries? (Fair enough--I thought it!) I'm guessing that the fact that I have lived/studied in England and Africa may be the big difference in our profiles, so here's a plug for study abroad!

Congrats ChE for getting off the WL! Now go enter that data into the Official WL thread!...please.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=105467

This is actually my 5th year and the MCAT only lasts 3. The previous 3 cycles were with the 31, so we were much more a like.

Things that helped:
1) A few weeks ago, I was in a cath lab and commented to the cardiologist that he may not want to use the instrument he was about to use on the patient. He thought about it for a moment, and switched. I guess he agreed.
2) I did the study abroad thing last year (kinda). I went to France to (among other things) watch a surgeon shove a pole, just underneath the skin, from a hole in abdomen to just below the clavicle on 3 patients (FYI, The OR I was in there was quite a bit different from those I've been in here. As was recovery). I was able to talk to people undergoing this procedure, both before and after. Oh ya, and I got to watch the same thing done on dogs.
3) I watched a laproscopic procedure where they filled a person's belly with gas, stuck in a camera and a couple of grabbers, and I got to stand there and watch. It's amazing to watch the surgeons and then look at the TV and realize I'm actually looking at a pic from inside the person.
4) I watched a couple of procedures where stents were placed into the cardiac arteries to unblock them. (my job was to spend a month in a hotel right next to the hospital just in case the right type of emergency patient came in. Then, I had run over to the hospital to watch and help walk the cardiologist through an addon to the procedure. Then train the nurses). Angiography is cooooool.

Not bad for an Electrical Engineering job, No? (yep, all job related) Things like this helped on the PS, secondaries, and interviews.

Basically, I was able to go from "Gee, I think I'd like to be a doc. I volunteered in the ER and brought some water to people." to "well, just take a look at what I've done. I think I have an idea what it takes." The confidence level is different when you can easily answer the question "Are you sure?"

I really admire the fact that you hung in there year after year...and didn't let any of those rejections get you down to the point where you felt like quitting.

You can stop admiring. That's why I didn't apply the 4th year. I did quit. It was doing things like I mentioned above that gave me the strength to retake the MCAT and apply again.


edit: just re-read this... lots of typos. Lo siento.

 

[gschl1234]

no. 31 I actually didn't already have a career. I just took the MCAT as a senior and had started my first job during the first app cycle.
*in a yoda voice* "That is why I failed. " *in a yoda voice*

Man, I feel for you. You got hosed! Congrats on getting in this year though. I hope everything is smooth sailing from now on. You deserve it!

 

[StartingLine3]

For those asking the question - What percentage of students who declare themselves as pre-meds, as entering freshman, succeed in gaining admission to medical school.

I attend a state school (Texas) with an approximate student population of 16,000. I recently asked my pre-med advisor what percentage of students who start as declared pre-meds actually gain admission to a Texas medical school at our university. He told me that the class from last years medical school application process began with between 280-300 pre-meds as freshman, thirty two progressed and applied to medical school and twenty two were accepted. My schools biology department has a descent reputation for producing students that end up attending medical school, the kaplan review is offered free to those students who are considered competitive applicants, the region is severely underserved by physicians, and the student population is mostly hispanic, therefore, our schools numbers may be slightly skewed and not a good example. Typical pre-med upper division courses, such as genetics, histology, cell biology, comparative embryology, microbiology, biochemistry, organic chemistry, molecular biology, and human physiology ect... at my school are very difficuly and weed people out in groves.

Using my schools data starting with 280 students only 7.85 percent make it to medical school and of thirty two that survive, remain premed, and apply 68.75 percent make it into medical school.

Anyone else have data from their schools?

 

[NRAI2001]

The carribean will almost accept anyone. If someone really wanted to be an MD, I think would spend 2 years in the Carribean. Those people that changed their minds after getting rejected didn't really want to be an MD. They were probabl doing it for the prestige. Even though the carribean isn't very prestigous its still a med school (by no means any inferior).

 

[NRAI2001]

For those asking the question - What percentage of students who declare themselves as pre-meds, as entering freshman, succeed in gaining admission to medical school.

I attend a state school (Texas) with an approximate student population of 16,000. I recently asked my pre-med advisor what percentage of students who start as declared pre-meds actually gain admission to a Texas medical school at our university. He told me that the class from last years medical school application process began with between 280-300 pre-meds as freshman, thirty two progressed and applied to medical school and twenty two were accepted. My schools biology department has a descent reputation for producing students that end up attending medical school, the kaplan review is offered free to those students who are considered competitive applicants, the region is severely underserved by physicians, and the student population is mostly hispanic, therefore, our schools numbers may be slightly skewed and not a good example. Typical pre-med upper division courses, such as genetics, histology, cell biology, comparative embryology, microbiology, biochemistry, organic chemistry, molecular biology, and human physiology ect... at my school are very difficuly and weed people out in groves.

Using my schools data starting with 280 students only 7.85 percent make it to medical school and of thirty two that survive, remain premed, and apply 68.75 percent make it into medical school.

Anyone else have data from their schools?

68.75 percent is pretty high. Aren't most people weeded out by the lower div courses? I felt that my upper div courses were a lot less competitive and a lot more straight forward than m lower div courses.

 

[TheGuy2000]

MY SCORE WAS 22!!!Does this make me deserving or not??? I had a 3.8 g.p.a at the time and it is higher now. I think my life experiences, grades,responsibilities, and ability to juggle all that life dealt me made me deserving.
MY GOAL NOW is without all those responsibilities anymore is to succeed now that I have been given this wonderful opportunity!!!

This is a shame. I see people like this who get into med school, and it makes me want to cry.
On a happier note... Mr. Reddly my hats off to you sir. You are an inspiration to myself and to everyone on this board. You followed your dreams year after year after year, and you my friend deserve all the success in the world I'll do a shot to you this weekend, here's to wishing you a successful life, and plentiful trophy wives

 

[NRAI2001]

I think anyone who scores a 22 on the mcat (no matter how high they're GPA is ) doesn't deserve to get into an allopathic school.

 

[Cerberus]

now i am scared

 

[MrTee]

68.75 percent is pretty high. Aren't most people weeded out by the lower div courses? I felt that my upper div courses were a lot less competitive and a lot more straight forward than m lower div courses.

Yeah, in the post he said that of 280 premeds (from freshman year), only 32 actually ended up applying...and of the 32, 22 got in. So yes, there was definitely a weeding out process.

 

[juddson]

My friend who is prelaw told me that at the beginning of freshman year when they do the pre-professional mass clinic where they give info books out, that the prelaw group was next door to the premed group. The premed room was a very large lecture hall that was full, while the prelaw room was only about half full.

The prelaw dean starts off by saying "Dont worry that there arent that many of you yet, there are a lot more law applicants here. Theyre just all next door [at the premed meeting] and just don't know it yet"

THIS is SOOOOO true!!!!!!!!!! I love it!!!!!!!!!! I have confirmed its truth by an informal survey of my law school class. Newton could hardly have been more sure about his own experiments.

Judd