Failing PT at Army BOLC?

[ProudMD]

I'll be attending USUHS in the fall with the Army branch, and I am very excited about what lies ahead.

I understand that I'll have to do PT during the Army BOLC in June, but I wonder what will happen if I don't pass the PT during BOLC? Will my USUHS acceptance be revoked?

I am working towards passing the PT on a daily basis (running, push-ups, and sit-ups), and so far, I can do 22 push-ups and 30 sit-ups (I need to do 40 and 50 to pass). I have little doubt that I'll be ready come June, but I am wondering about this "what-if" scenario.

Can anyone who has attended Army BOLC shed some light?

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[sonofva]

You will get up at 0400 or earlier for remedial pt while at bolc. If u fail your diagnostic pt test. But realistically you have like 5-6 months until then so I would say avoid the trouble and bust your ass in the gym until then and just pass pt test. The min numbers really aren't that hard to achieve and you'll look like less of an dingus doctor who doesn't care about military regs.

 

[sonofva]

Also I don't know why my phone auto-corrected to dingus, but I'm going to let it stand as is.

 

[ProudMD]

Thanks for the response. There is plenty of time until I attend BOLC, and I absolutely will try to pass the PT on the first go.

But as a worst case scenario, what will happen if someone just can't pass the PT during BOLC even after all the remedial exercises? Will that person be removed from the Army?

 

[deleted480308]

Thanks for the response. There is plenty of time until I attend BOLC, and I absolutely will try to pass the PT on the first go.

But as a worst case scenario, what will happen if someone just can't pass the PT during BOLC even after all the remedial exercises? Will that person be removed from the Army?

You must pass the apft, timing is really irrelevant (at bolc or within a few months). It's january one and bolc is in june, get in shape and pass the apft...it will be your life for the next 14yrs

 

[colbgw02]

Passing the APFT is required for BOLC graduation. And not just any APFT - the one they administer, so timing is relevant in that sense. You either pass it, get recycled, or get to come back and do the whole thing over again. I doubt they would kick you out of the Army for this, at least not right away, but it is the easiest and quickest way to get on everyone's ****-list. At my station, residents are not allowed to progress to the next year before passing. I would imagine USUHS would employ a similar technique.

 

[haujun]

Thanks for the response. There is plenty of time until I attend BOLC, and I absolutely will try to pass the PT on the first go.

But as a worst case scenario, what will happen if someone just can't pass the PT during BOLC even after all the remedial exercises? Will that person be removed from the Army?

I can think of more worst case scenarios (than dealing with APFT failures) in the military for next 14 years as USUHS grad...By the way If getting out of the military was that easy I guess more HPSP students will try to fail APFT.

 

[ProudMD]

I have a follow-up question regarding Army PTs.

I know that passing the bi-annual PT on the first try is very important, but does it make a difference if someone "barely passes" (scores in the 180-200 range)? Will it reflect negatively on my record if I only manage to pass the PT without scoring very high? In other words, will getting low PT scores (but still passing) hinder my ability to get assignments and eventually promotions? I've heard that all it says in our official military records is whether we passed our PTs.

To my understanding, many enlisted soldiers/NCOs view anything less than a 250 as a "disgrace"! I have little doubt that I'll be able to pass the Army PT, but there's no way for me to score in the mid/upper 200s. I would imagine that most military doctors are not as physically fit as enlisted personnel in combat roles.

Thanks again for any insights!

 

[sonofva]

You will not be the first medical corps officer to do crappy on a pt test

 

[ProudMD]

You will not be the first medical corps officer to do crappy on a pt test

Haha good point. As long as we PASS...

 

[Homunculus]

I have a follow-up question regarding Army PTs.

I know that passing the bi-annual PT on the first try is very important, but does it make a difference if someone "barely passes" (scores in the 180-200 range)? Will it reflect negatively on my record if I only manage to pass the PT without scoring very high? In other words, will getting low PT scores (but still passing) hinder my ability to get assignments and eventually promotions? I've heard that all it says in our official military records is whether we passed our PTs.

To my understanding, many enlisted soldiers/NCOs view anything less than a 250 as a "disgrace"! I have little doubt that I'll be able to pass the Army PT, but there's no way for me to score in the mid/upper 200s. I would imagine that most military doctors are not as physically fit as enlisted personnel in combat roles.

Thanks again for any insights!

you either pass or fail. like mr miyagi says-- karate yes or karate no-- no in between. for promotions as long as you pass at the moment it is not a discriminator for promotion.

in the line officer ranks the PT score is valued as well. in my ROTC days we were expected to score over 250. most military doctors, at least the ones i've been around, actually hold their own quite well against most enlisted. the decreased standards for age of course help, but you grossly overestimate most enlisted personnel. infantry guys, sure, but for a combat support or combat service support i would guess we're upper third on average. i have no unbiased data and this is totally observational in my experience, but our "fat/lazy" ratio is lower than most. at least in the army.

--your friendly neighborhood don't be a grape caveman

 

[244913]

Haha good point. As long as we PASS...

I was in a line unit for 4 years. As an Officer, I was expected to score > 280. There wasn't any outright discrimination against those who scored lower but it raised eyebrows among both higher ranking NCO's and the XO/S3/SCO.

I also liked to set the benchmark for my medics by outscoring them on the APFT. Additionally, being in shape gives you the moral high ground against the malingerers and profile seekers who crowd your doorstep. In my BDE the support battalion had a slothful obese female who profiled and she set an extremely poor example for the rest of us and her troops.

Another thing to consider is that if you are a poor performer on the test, your command might make you come in every morning and PT with the staff, which is painful and takes you away from sick call duties. Nobody in my squadron questioned my absence at PT formations because I was consistently scoring in the 290's.

My advice would be to work out hard and score as high as you can. Don't aim for just passing. Chances are good that at some point in your career you'll end up in an operational unit and they look down on snowflakes there. It isn't like MASH. Eventually- if you're a good Doc- no one really cares too much about PT but when you first get to a new command people will judge you on it.

- ex 61N

 

[ProudMD]

I was in a line unit for 4 years. As an Officer, I was expected to score > 280. There wasn't any outright discrimination against those who scored lower but it raised eyebrows among both higher ranking NCO's and the XO/S3/SCO.

I also liked to set the benchmark for my medics by outscoring them on the APFT. Additionally, being in shape gives you the moral high ground against the malingerers and profile seekers who crowd your doorstep. In my BDE the support battalion had a slothful obese female who profiled and she set an extremely poor example for the rest of us and her troops.

Another thing to consider is that if you are a poor performer on the test, your command might make you come in every morning and PT with the staff, which is painful and takes you away from sick call duties. Nobody in my squadron questioned my absence at PT formations because I was consistently scoring in the 290's.

My advice would be to work out hard and score as high as you can. Don't aim for just passing. Chances are good that at some point in your career you'll end up in an operational unit and they look down on snowflakes there. It isn't like MASH. Eventually- if you're a good Doc- no one really cares too much about PT but when you first get to a new command people will judge you on it.

- ex 61N

I thought this is reserved only for those who failed to pass the PT test?

 

[ProudMD]

you either pass or fail. like mr miyagi says-- karate yes or karate no-- no in between. for promotions as long as you pass at the moment it is not a discriminator for promotion.

in the line officer ranks the PT score is valued as well. in my ROTC days we were expected to score over 250. most military doctors, at least the ones i've been around, actually hold their own quite well against most enlisted. the decreased standards for age of course help, but you grossly overestimate most enlisted personnel. infantry guys, sure, but for a combat support or combat service support i would guess we're upper third on average. i have no unbiased data and this is totally observational in my experience, but our "fat/lazy" ratio is lower than most. at least in the army.

--your friendly neighborhood don't be a grape caveman

Thanks for the helpful info!

In your view, what score would be considered "respectable" for an army physician? I assume it's higher than 180?

 

[ProudMD]

Another related question:

I understand that while at USUHS, we are not required to do any mandatory 5 AM PT workouts, and that all we need is to pass the PT test twice a year. During residency and beyond, will we be required to wake up at 5 AM and do PT, or is it also a work out on our own schedule and pass the test twice a year?

I've heard that at many units/commands, everyone has to wake up at 5 AM and do PT. Does this apply to just the enlisted? What about line officers and officers in the Medical Corps?

I am not in any way disregarding the importance of staying physically fit and passing all PT tests. But I need to realistic with myself and know that I'll never be able to score "stud points" on the PT. My immediate goal is to simply hit that 180 come June's BOLC. If I can score higher, then all the better!

 

[Homunculus]

Thanks for the helpful info!

In your view, what score would be considered "respectable" for an army physician? I assume it's higher than 180?

in a non-operational unit (ie, hospital, clinic, etc) it really does not matter. no one will respect you more or less like the line units may for a score-- no one will know what it is unless you tell them. just pass it. your command can't do anything to to you for a 180-- passing is passing. if you are in a non-operational unit you won't be forced to do PT for passing score. on the flip side, even if you score a 300 and get a "4 day pass" award or something -- same thing. you can't use it like the non-medical people can so it really means nothing. i would suggest you aim for over a 200 just to give you a buffer for a "bad day" and to make the test less anxiety provoking. the standards really aren't that bad, and most people with some regular exercise and effort i would imagine could get low 200s without much of a problem.

--your friendly neighborhood walking is strongly discouraged caveman

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

In all seriousness, enough where you can blend in with the rest of your company. Blipping on anyone's radar during PT is a bad thing. At least according to my mentor.

 

[Homunculus]

During residency and beyond, will we be required to wake up at 5 AM and do PT, or is it also a work out on our own schedule and pass the test twice a year?

no mandatory PT unless you fail. and even if you fail, good luck having them find time for you to do it.

Ive heard that at many units/commands, everyone has to wake up at 5 AM and do PT. Does this apply to just the enlisted? What about line officers and officers in the Medical Corps?

you don't need to worry about this, either. PT is on your own.

Red Lobster is correct. don't stand out. don't be first, don't volunteer, don't be last, and don't fail anything. there is safety in the flock.

--your friendly neighborhood i think you're overthinking this caveman

 

[pgg]

All fitness reports at USUHS are non observed. Everyone who graduates gets promoted to O3, even the ones who failed PT tests. While in school, no mandatory PT at all ... unless you fail. Even then, as I recall, mandatory PT for failure was more of an on-your-honor do it not a group event. Also as I recall, the sum total of any "military" functions requiring attendance was a group photo each year, and a couple other formations totalling maybe 30 minutes. Except for the uniform, and a couple low-hour ankle-biter classes on militaryisms, it's just a medical school.

No mandatory PT during residency ... unless you fail. Even then probably not, most places.

Afterwards, as staff at a hospital. Mandatory PT is rare, rare, rare ... unless you fail. Then it can be really inconvenient when it comes to clinical schedules.

Failing the test will hold up promotion to O4. Barely passing vs a maximum score has no impact on promotion ... now. As rough as it's getting to make O5 though it wouldn't surprise me if it started to matter in the future though. Don't fail. It's a headache you don't need. It's a bigger headache than the minimum exercise and cheesecake restraint required to not fail.

Past medical school, the military won't let you out prior to the end of your obligated service no matter how many times you fail. I knew a guy who tried. Very fit guy who deliberately failed the test to see what would happen. It was amusing, sort of.

Many commands will give a day of special liberty (ie a workday off) for high scores near maximum, so there's some reason to do very well, if you can. Whether or not you can actually TAKE that day off depends on your department. But in my experience people get their SL days. I sure take mine for the other silly things they give them out for (like every 180 days if no one at the command gets a DUI everyone gets a day off).

As a GMO with Marine infantry it was looked upon favorably to get out and PT with the Marines and Corpsmen. I imagine other operational tours with line units are the same. But ... they'd rather you were a good doctor than a fitness maniac, so as long as you can pass and not fall out of the rare group events, it's all good. My co-GMO the first year was out of standards but did a great job so the Marines loved him. They're not *****s. They know what the doctor is there for.

Since getting back to a hospital, away from the line ... the score doesn't matter, beyond passing. I can't run fast enough to max the test, and there's no extra brownie points for doing "good" as opposed to "satisfactory" so before each test I look up the minimum passing standards, go out and do that, plus a little more, and then stop. Maybe I'm not a very good role model. I'm just a little tired of that whole circus.

Moral of the story, stay within weight standards and pass and it's a twice-a-year non event. Failing isn't worth the headache.

 

[ProudMD]

All fitness reports at USUHS are non observed. Everyone who graduates gets promoted to O3, even the ones who failed PT tests. While in school, no mandatory PT at all ... unless you fail. Even then, as I recall, mandatory PT for failure was more of an on-your-honor do it not a group event. Also as I recall, the sum total of any "military" functions requiring attendance was a group photo each year, and a couple other formations totalling maybe 30 minutes. Except for the uniform, and a couple low-hour ankle-biter classes on militaryisms, it's just a medical school.

No mandatory PT during residency ... unless you fail. Even then probably not, most places.

Afterwards, as staff at a hospital. Mandatory PT is rare, rare, rare ... unless you fail. Then it can be really inconvenient when it comes to clinical schedules.

Failing the test will hold up promotion to O4. Barely passing vs a maximum score has no impact on promotion ... now. As rough as it's getting to make O5 though it wouldn't surprise me if it started to matter in the future though. Don't fail. It's a headache you don't need. It's a bigger headache than the minimum exercise and cheesecake restraint required to not fail.

Past medical school, the military won't let you out prior to the end of your obligated service no matter how many times you fail. I knew a guy who tried. Very fit guy who deliberately failed the test to see what would happen. It was amusing, sort of.

Many commands will give a day of special liberty (ie a workday off) for high scores near maximum, so there's some reason to do very well, if you can. Whether or not you can actually TAKE that day off depends on your department. But in my experience people get their SL days. I sure take mine for the other silly things they give them out for (like every 180 days if no one at the command gets a DUI everyone gets a day off).

As a GMO with Marine infantry it was looked upon favorably to get out and PT with the Marines and Corpsmen. I imagine other operational tours with line units are the same. But ... they'd rather you were a good doctor than a fitness maniac, so as long as you can pass and not fall out of the rare group events, it's all good. My co-GMO the first year was out of standards but did a great job so the Marines loved him. They're not *****s. They know what the doctor is there for.

Since getting back to a hospital, away from the line ... the score doesn't matter, beyond passing. I can't run fast enough to max the test, and there's no extra brownie points for doing "good" as opposed to "satisfactory" so before each test I look up the minimum passing standards, go out and do that, plus a little more, and then stop. Maybe I'm not a very good role model. I'm just a little tired of that whole circus.

Moral of the story, stay within weight standards and pass and it's a twice-a-year non event. Failing isn't worth the headache.

Thanks pgg for this amazing response!

You mentioned that promotion to O-5 is getting very difficult, could you shed more light on this? To my understanding, promotion to O-4 is virtually guaranteed after six years (as long as you don't do something stupid), and that promotion to O-5 is also somewhat routine/guaranteed. I was under the impression that it truly becomes competitive when O-5s are getting promoted to O-6s.

Roughly what percentage of O-4s make it to O-5s? And O-5s to O-6s?

 

[colbgw02]

no mandatory PT unless you fail. and even if you fail, good luck having them find time for you to do it.

No mandatory PT during residency ... unless you fail. Even then probably not, most places.

At my MEDCEN, they definitely make residents who fail do organized PT. The general surgery program where I trained (different MEDCEN) used to make their residents do company PT after failing too. They even went as far as to clarify with ACGME that time spent at mandatory PT does not count against work hour restrictions. At present, if a resident does not pass the APFT by 30 June, then they are not promoted to the next PGY level. Instead, they are removed from clinical duties and placed under the sole control of the company and/or troop commander until they pass. If they are gone from clinical duty long enough, then it has implications for vacation usage and/or graduating on time. I can't speak to other services, but the national Army GME office takes this very seriously, and I would imagine these policies are now Army-wide.

 

[d2305]

I'm amazed at how many army members have profiles. I do pha screenings and LBP and knee pain are the norm.

 

[WernickeDO]

Thanks pgg for this amazing response!

You mentioned that promotion to O-5 is getting very difficult, could you shed more light on this? To my understanding, promotion to O-4 is virtually guaranteed after six years (as long as you don't do something stupid), and that promotion to O-5 is also somewhat routine/guaranteed. I was under the impression that it truly becomes competitive when O-5s are getting promoted to O-6s.

Roughly what percentage of O-4s make it to O-5s? And O-5s to O-6s?

For docs to get promoted to O4 is almost automatic, unless you screw up in a major way. Promotion to O5 and O6 used to be automatic too, but they have made this more difficult in recent years. They want to see CCC, ILE, command assignments, deployments. I don't know percentages but people who want to get promoted do the schooling and assignments and usually do just fine. Bear in mind that upper echelons of rank will require more admin work and less doctoring (in most some specialties at least).

 

[pgg]

O4 is automatic if you have a pulse and no felony convictions (or PFA failures).

For the Navy O5 has been tough in recent years. About 65% selection rate total, including above zone looks, so it's more like 50-55% your first time up. It's also requiring a lot more collateral duty checks-in-the-box to get there.

I didn't get selected to O5 my first time up and had to take a mostly non-clinical, significant leadership position for the better part of a year in order to make it the next year. I was (truly) about as strong as any mostly-clinical non-fellowship-trained O4 could possibly be. O5 used to be nearly automatic; it certainly is not any more.

 

[Homunculus]

army i think was quoted around 75% for in the zone for O-5 at the recent captain's career course. piddly compared to the old days-- but it's a way to "shape the force."

--your friendly neighborhood in the zone caveman

 

[ProudMD]

army i think was quoted around 75% for in the zone for O-5 at the recent captain's career course. piddly compared to the old days-- but it's a way to "shape the force."

--your friendly neighborhood in the zone caveman

I guess I am naive, but 75% promotion rate to O-5 doesn't sound THAT bad. Do the other 25% remain at O-4 forever or do they just separate from the military?

And can you describe what you mean by "in the zone"?

 

[Chonal Atresia]

I guess I am naive, but 75% promotion rate to O-5 doesn't sound THAT bad. Do the other 25% remain at O-4 forever or do they just separate from the military?

And can you describe what you mean by "in the zone"?

75 percent select rate when greater than 90 percent of physicians leave at the end of their initial ADSO is bad. Army medicine is plain ignorant. I will laugh when the next "big" war starts and they are begging for doctors,

 

[ProudMD]

75 percent select rate when greater than 90 percent of physicians leave at the end of their initial ADSO is bad. Army medicine is plain ignorant. I will laugh when the next "big" war starts and they are begging for doctors,

Thanks for the clarification. So for those Army doctors who want to stay until retirement but aren't selected for O-5s, are they eligible to retire as Majors? Isn't there a minimum rank that you need (in addition to 20 years) in order to qualify for retirement? I am pretty sure you can't have a 60 year old Captain staying in the force.

 

[WernickeDO]

Thanks for the clarification. So for those Army doctors who want to stay until retirement but aren't selected for O-5s, are they eligible to retire as Majors? Isn't there a minimum rank that you need (in addition to 20 years) in order to qualify for retirement? I am pretty sure you can't have a 60 year old Captain staying in the force.

The "zone" that homunculus was referring to has to do with when you are considered for promotion relative to the time that you have in. For most docs, their zone for promotion to O4 is 6 years, so being promoted after 5 would be "below zone", promoted after 7 would be "above". I don't know how often this happens with docs, this is more of an operational/command thing.

For enlisted, if you fail to make promotions in a timely manner then you are separated from the Army, whether you want to be or not. For officers and docs, the incentive to stay in for 20 and get promoted is usually enough to take on the tasks that require said promotion, namely Army training courses and admin/command positions. Any O5-6 in a clinical position has likely already done an operational/command tour that was largely non-clinical. As far as being a 60 y/o CPT, for docs to get promoted they have to become board certified in some medical specialty (O4), and serve some kind of admin/command post (O5). If you have someone that is happy being an intern trained doc and seeing sick call at the aid station, I imagine the Army will STRONGLY advise that doc to get residency trained and board certified in something. That leads to O4, and then a command position, etc. What I'm getting at is that it is difficult to do your job and NOT get promoted. Promotion to O5 might just be a few weeks at some gentlemen's course, so why not do it if that's what you want?

 

[colbgw02]

I imagine the Army will STRONGLY advise that doc to get residency trained and board certified in something. That leads to O4, and then a command position, etc. What I'm getting at is that it is difficult to do your job and NOT get promoted. Promotion to O5 might just be a few weeks at some gentlemen's course, so why not do it if that's what you want?

As mentioned before, promotion to O4 for any medical corps officer in good standing with 6 years of credible service is essentially automatic. In contradistinction to O5 and beyond, it is a noncompetitive selection process. While it is true that the Army is not happy to see O5s as GMO and, yes, they will expect you to complete a residency eventually, before pinning on O4 is not when they care. There are plenty of surgeons who completed research years that pin on major before graduating residency, which says nothing of the former GMOs whose residency will carry them beyond the six year mark.

I disagree with your assertion that doing one's job is sufficient to be promoted. That represents old world thinking and isn't reflective of the Army's new paradigm for physician promotions. I've seen the numbers for last March's O5 selection board - it's a roughly 50% in-the-zone and 75% above-the-zone selection rate nowadays (1 MC officer was selected BZ, FWIW). You are not going to convince me that 50% of Army physicians who went before the board this past year weren't doing their job. I know a number of them personally who were passed over. All of them attended CCC and had rank appropriate leadership positions. Some have deployed, too.

As I've said on other threads, I have major issues with how the Army promotes its physicians. I won't rehash all of that here, but I will point out that the use of a pyramidal rank structure makes little sense in medicine. In the line, I can see the logic. To wit, there are fewer companies than platoons, fewer battalions than companies, fever brigades than battalions, etc., etc., so there is a rationale behind only promoting the best*. With the medical corps and well-known full colonel jokes aside, who cares if you've got a department full of O6s? Promoting a physician has little appreciable impact on the mission, but NOT promoting that physician sure as heck does. Because that person is now much more likely to separate, taking his experience and acumen with him.

*And, of course, I'm just glossing over the fact that one's clinical skills (you know, that doing your job part) are almost entirely divorced from promotion criteria.

 

[WernickeDO]

As mentioned before, promotion to O4 for any medical corps officer in good standing with 6 years of credible service is essentially automatic. In contradistinction to O5 and beyond, it is a noncompetitive selection process. While it is true that the Army is not happy to see O5s as GMO and, yes, they will expect you to complete a residency eventually, before pinning on O4 is not when they care. There are plenty of surgeons who completed research years that pin on major before graduating residency, which says nothing of the former GMOs whose residency will carry them beyond the six year mark.

I disagree with your assertion that doing one's job is sufficient to be promoted. That represents old world thinking and isn't reflective of the Army's new paradigm for physician promotions. I've seen the numbers for last March's O5 selection board - it's a roughly 50% in-the-zone and 75% above-the-zone selection rate nowadays (1 MC officer was selected BZ, FWIW). You are not going to convince me that 50% of Army physicians who went before the board this past year weren't doing their job. I know a number of them personally who were passed over. All of them attended CCC and had rank appropriate leadership positions. Some have deployed, too.

As I've said on other threads, I have major issues with how the Army promotes its physicians. I won't rehash all of that here, but I will point out that the use of a pyramidal rank structure makes little sense in medicine. In the line, I can see the logic. To wit, there are fewer companies than platoons, fewer battalions than brigades, fever brigades than divisions, etc., etc., so there is a rationale behind only promoting the best*. With the medical care and well-known full colonel jokes aside, who cares if you've got a department full of O6s? Promoting a physician has little appreciable impact on the mission, but NOT promoting that physician sure as heck does. Because that person is now much more likely to separate, taking his experience and acumen with him.

*And, of course, I'm just glossing over the fact that one's clinical skills (you know, that doing your job part) are almost entirely divorced from promotion criteria.

Well said.

 

[haujun]

Promotion board members composed of mostly non-medical line officers so they assume that if you graduated from medical school you have clinical skills to become physician. They will look at your non-clinical abilities and if you get a top block from operational O-7 you will get promoted on time or (likely) below the zone. These days if you want to get promoted on time to O-6 you might as will take that job as flight, brigade and division surgeon and spent +10 years in non-clinical position after residency/fellowship. I guess this sort of make sense as those who decide to stay in the military have common view that they cannot make it in the civilian sector due to poor clinical skills.
I think decision to separate from the military is made during residency or ADSO years esp for HPSP students. High above the zone rates will make on the zone more competitive...only in MC selection board LOL.

 

[pgg]

Just a couple comments on points raised above -

Medical Corps promotion boards are not mostly line officers. There is ONE line officer and the rest are medical; the president of the board is a medical corps flag. For the Navy at least, the board members are public knowledge and are published on the BUPERS web site.

Board certification is not a pre-requisite for promotion to O4.

It is absolutely NOT enough to just "do your job" to make O5. The tired old saying is true: people don't get promoted, records do. And every single military physician's record always, always says things like "excellent physician" or "gifted clinician" or "terrific surgeon" ... so the selection boards have to look to other things to draw a line somewhere in the pool of people records being considered. This is why we see, over and over, marginal physicians and/or physicians who take on lots of admin work get promoted over great physicians who don't. It's a consequence of trying to use a system built to rate line officers to evaluate doctors.

 

[pgg]

I've told my promotion story here before, but here's the short version.

I was passed over for O5 in zone. I was board certified, had deployed in my specialty, was the dept head, chaired a committee (resuscitation/ACLS) and intermittently chaired or served on several more, had EP fitreps ranked against peers (ie not 1 of 1), great clinical outcomes, no PFA failures or legal problems, but was about 90% clinical. I am a very, very good anesthesiologist; yes, I know everybody thinks they're awesome ... just take my word for it, it's totally true in my case. Not selected.

After that, I took a 90%+ admin job (director of surgical services) and was selected above zone the next year. Being DSS was actually a very rewarding and often enjoyable job, I learned a lot, got to work closely with some great people including an incredible CO and XO, had some influence on meaningful policy decisions, and left with some perspective on how hospital admins think ... so I'm not complaining about my time as DSS. I'm glad I'm back to being 90% clinical now because, well, that's what I went to medical school for in the first place, but I don't regret that time as DSS. I am simply disappointed and upset that it's necessary AT ALL for physicians to take themselves away from clinical work that much to get promoted to O5. It's not right. It's not.

 

[pgg]

The 2015 Navy O5 staff selection boards:

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/activedutyofficer/05staff/Pages/FY-15.aspx

Board membership was six physicians and one line officer (pdf):

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/activedutyofficer/05staff/Documents/FY-15/FY-15 AO5S Membership.pdf

 

[haujun]

Just a couple comments on points raised above -

Medical Corps promotion boards are not mostly line officers. There is ONE line officer and the rest are medical; the president of the board is a medical corps flag. For the Navy at least, the board members are public knowledge and are published on the BUPERS web site.

Board certification is not a pre-requisite for promotion to O4.

It is absolutely NOT enough to just "do your job" to make O5. The tired old saying is true: people don't get promoted, records do. And every single military physician's record always, always says things like "excellent physician" or "gifted clinician" or "terrific surgeon" ... so the selection boards have to look to other things to draw a line somewhere in the pool of people records being considered. This is why we see, over and over, marginal physicians and/or physicians who take on lots of admin work get promoted over great physicians who don't. It's a consequence of trying to use a system built to rate line officers to evaluate doctors.

I was speaking from the Army side. I also even talked to a COL (non-medical) who was tasked in selecting next LTC MC officer about 2 years ago. He told me that there was one MC officer and rest were not physician. In any case I guess it does not really matter. Even if there were more physicians they will judge us based on non-clinical abilities.

 

[colbgw02]

I was speaking from the Army side. I also even talked to a COL (non-medical) who was tasked in selecting next LTC MC officer about 2 years ago. He told me that there was one MC officer and rest were not physician. In any case I guess it does not really matter. Even if there were more physicians they will judge us based on non-clinical abilities.

This jives with my understanding as well. Army MC promotion board = 1 physician, et. al.

 

[deuist]

I would imagine that most military doctors are not as physically fit as enlisted personnel in combat roles.

Absolutely not true. I have scored greater than 95 out of 100 on all of my PT tests in the Air Force. On my last one, I was the first one across the finish line during the 1.5 mile run. I'm currently deployed with someone from the hospital who can run a 5K in 15 minutes. There are lots of doctors who are physically fit and your statement comes across as an excuse for not being in shape.

I've heard that at many units/commands, everyone has to wake up at 5 AM and do PT. Does this apply to just the enlisted? What about line officers and officers in the Medical Corps?

Unit-wide PT seems to be based more upon your job then anything else. My home hospital has voluntary PT only one day a week. I've never been to it.

But I need to realistic with myself and know that I'll never be able to score "stud points" on the PT. My immediate goal is to simply hit that 180 come June's BOLC. If I can score higher, then all the better!

A PT test should be the easiest thing for you to pass. I'm not sure why people join the military with the thought that they don't need to be physically fit as part of the war fighting machine. Lots of things leave me disgusted with the Air Force, but the one thing that makes me hold my head in shame the most is watching a PT test.

 

[ProudMD]

Does failure to pass PT result in an other than honorable discharge from the military?

@deuist
I completely agree that passing the PT is one of the most fundamental duties of any military member. The passing score for the Army is 180, which means it fully meets the acceptable standard set force by the service. Of course I'll aim for a higher score (if only to be safe in case things don't go well on test day), but it is completely unrealistic (and unnecessary) for me to aim for a 95+ in all three sections. I know my limits when it comes to PT.

 

[colbgw02]

Does failure to pass PT result in an other than honorable discharge from the military?

No.

You seem to be perseverating over this PT thing. Passing is easy. Seriously, it's really easy. With sufficient warning, which you have, there are no excuses. If you have a condition or injury preventing you from performing up to standard, then get it addressed and documented.

 

[ProudMD]

No.

You seem to be perseverating over this PT thing. Passing is easy. Seriously, it's really easy. With sufficient warning, which you have, there are no excuses. If you have a condition or injury preventing you from performing up to standard, then get it addressed and documented.

Thanks for the response. I don't have any physical condition or injury, but I've never really worked out in my life before (never been to the gym). So this whole working out/going to the gym thing is an entirely new experience for me.

 

[deuist]

this whole working out/going to the gym thing is an entirely new experience for m

What did you think being in the military entailed? And no, you will not be thrown out by failing your PT test it as a military doctor. Lots of other bad things can happen to you – such as failure to promote – but getting kicked out is not one of them. If it were simple as that, few doctors would ever passive PT tests.

 

[colbgw02]

Thanks for the response. I don't have any physical condition or injury, but I've never really worked out in my life before (never been to the gym). So this whole working out/going to the gym thing is an entirely new experience for me.

If you're not sure how to attack the APFT, then I am sure there are online resources that can provide you with a workout plan. The APFT has existed in its current form for decades, so soldiers have figured out just about every tip and trick available to either pass or max. My personal advice is to take advantage of the human body's unbelievable capacity for adaptability. That is, just do a bunch of push-ups, sit-ups, and running. You will get better at it. If you're looking for an overall fitness plan, then consult a personal trainer, I guess. The point being is that a great swimmer doesn't always run 2 miles particularly quickly. I've known a lot of very healthy and in-shape people whose fitness wasn't reflected in their APFT score because they didn't train to the test. Because you're worried about passing, I would train to the test and then worry about overall fitness.

 

[ProudMD]

What did you think being in the military entailed? And no, you will not be thrown out by failing your PT test it as a military doctor. Lots of other bad things can happen to you – such as failure to promote – but getting kicked out is not one of them. If it were simple as that, few doctors would ever passive PT tests.

I know the military requires a basic level of physical fitness. That's why I am starting to get in shape/practicing the PT sections daily. I am saying that prior to making the decision to attend USUHS/the military, I paid almost no attention to my physical shape. I've never been overweight, so for me, that was good enough.

I meant to say that for a lot of people, hitting the gym/working out is just a part of their daily routine. For me, that has never been a routine until my acceptance to USUHS. So right now, I am working out daily so that I can make it into a routine and pass the PT.

 

[ProudMD]

What did you think being in the military entailed? And no, you will not be thrown out by failing your PT test it as a military doctor. Lots of other bad things can happen to you – such as failure to promote – but getting kicked out is not one of them. If it were simple as that, few doctors would ever passive PT tests.

So I guess things are different for officers than it is for enlisted. To my knowledge, an enlisted individual will be separated from the Army (and get a other than honorable discharge - which is the real problem since it impacts job hunting afterwards) if he cannot pass the PT after adequate preparation and warning.

As for the second bold statement, I am quite surprised that many military doctors will attempt to purposefully fail PTs just to get out of the military. You would expect that at minimum, people want to finish their service obligations honorably and on a high note.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

To my knowledge, an enlisted individual will be separated from the Army (and get a other than honorable discharge - which is the real problem since it impacts job hunting afterwards) if he cannot pass the PT after adequate preparation and warning.

Not true for medical officers. Uncle Sam invested millions of dollars into training a military physician and WILL make them pay back each and every day. They will not discharge a military doc all because he became a Major Porkins.

 

[deuist]

You would expect that at minimum, people want to finish their service obligations honorably and on a high note.

People also want the military to fulfill its obligations. As been detailed on this board many times, a lot of us have been lied to and then treated with the utmost disrespect ever since we joined.

 

[colbgw02]

(and get a other than honorable discharge - which is the real problem since it impacts job hunting afterwards)

An other-than-honorable discharge is not synonymous with a dishonorable discharge. The former, while not ideal, isn't going to appreciably stain your civilian life. The latter can, and likely willl.

 

[ProudMD]

People also want the military to fulfill its obligations. As been detailed on this board many times, a lot of us have been lied to and then treated with the utmost disrespect ever since we joined.

Yeah I am well aware of the negative things that have been said about military medicine. But can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by "have been lied to"? Lying is a very strong thing to say - were you not given something that you were explicitly promised? Such as certain benefits and/or bonus payments? Or is it mostly a thing when certain aspects of milmed isn't as good as what was told by the recruiters/other individuals in the military?

 

[deuist]

were you not given something that you were explicitly promised?

Sure, residency and fellowship.