Family life as a gen surg resident and beyond?

[reverence]

4th year here. My surgery rotation was at a community hospital with no surgery residents. Worked closely with attendings though.

Can any current surgical residents or attendings who are married (+/- children) comment on the demands and sacrifices required of a surgeon and how that impacts/impacted your family life, honestly.

As I am discerning specialties (gen surg has the greatest appeal), I have become nearly convinced that general surgeons must love their career above everything else. And even if that is just for the five years of residency (+/- fellowship years) what does living like that for five years do to you?

Would greatly appreciate input from married folks who are towards the end of a gen surg residency, or attendings who went through residency married. I have unfortunately have had exposure to more surgeons that have divorced than not. I am beginning to think that is the norm rather than the exception.

To the old guard it seems like it was a badge of honor to go through a surgery residency that ruined a marriage. There is nothing at all about that kind of life that appeals to me.

On a micro scale of life, I would love to be a surgeon. On a macro scale, I would love to be an excellent father and husband. Can you have both?

---

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[Psai]

I've seen the happiest med students turn into terrible grouches by the end of their intern year
Don't do it!

And it seems like more and more people are doing 2 extra research years (wtf?)

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

On a micro scale of life, I would love to be a surgeon. On a macro scale, I would love to be an excellent father and husband. Can you have both?

Not a surgeon or a resident, but I am pursing general surgery. I can't speak from experience, but just from what my attendings have told me. I did my rotation at 3 community hospitals, one of which was a Level I trauma center, and while there were residents, there were no gen surg residents.

I've worked with surgeons from both ends of the spectrum: have a normal family life with a wife/husband and children (one even put it as "gratifying"), and the divorced surgeon in his 40's. Notice there was only one who was divorced, so not sure if I was around too many family-oriented surgeons during 3rd year.

There was one surgeon I worked with who has a son with Down Syndrome, and he still maintains his surgical practice and has a stay-at-home wife. Another who rounded on his patients starting at 4am to make sure he was home in time for his children to wake up. Lastly, one was a female surgeon who has 3 kids and her husband is also a physician. Each one told me they enjoy their lives at home, and emphasized that if family TRUELY is important to you, there are ways of making it work.

The surgeon in his 40's who was divorced had a reputation for being a total dick to nurses, the OR staff, and medical students (though he never treated me like crap).

Once again, just my perspective, however I strive to be a man who knows where his priorities are, and deciding not to pursue gen surg because of things that "might happen" is taking the easy way out, and would leave me with immense regret that I did not pursue my ideal profession.

TL;DR
If family is truly your priority, surgeons have told me it is possible to balance family and work. The only divorced surgeon I worked with extensively was viewed as an a-hole by numerous people. Better to pursue your dream specialty than to pass it up and wonder what could have been.

 

[Señor S]

I've seen the happiest med students turn into terrible grouches by the end of their intern year

This, Gen Surg residents as a group are the most miserable I've encountered. There is no close second or third either.

 

[Tenk]

I am not a surgeon but I know plenty. Residency sucks and is probably one of the worst possible. Being an attending is what you make it. I know plenty of happy attendings. Only do it if you love to operate. Good luck.

 

[emergentmd]

Residency I am sure is different now, but when I trained 15 yrs ago most were miserable. When I did my surg rotation, I was miserable.

I mean those guys did Q3 call for the majority of their 5 yrs and did 120+ hrs/wk during those Q3 calls. Trust me, I know. After one month, I was miserable.

The only more miserable people were the neurosurgeons and their Q2 call who did it for 6 months straight. Yeah.... wrap your head around Q2 call.

 

[bannie22]

No life.

Residency I am sure is different now, but when I trained 15 yrs ago most were miserable. When I did my surg rotation, I was miserable.

I mean those guys did Q3 call for the majority of their 5 yrs and did 120+ hrs/wk during those Q3 calls. Trust me, I know. After one month, I was miserable.

The only more miserable people were the neurosurgeons and their Q2 call who did it for 6 months straight. Yeah.... wrap your head around Q2 call.

I see Q1 "home" call still. ahahahahahahahaha

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm so glad you posted this in allo, where you'll get virtually no helpful responses, just a chorus of negativity from people with no relevant experience.

Surgery does require a degree of commitment that is rare even in medicine, a field that already requires a lot of self-sacrifice and commitment.

However, the notion that it means a strict "love surgery first" mindset, or that it requires absentee parenting, being a bad spouse, etc, etc, are worn-thin retreads of stereotypes from twenty years ago.

My department chairman is a fantastic surgeon, has run a successful department and a research lab, and will still tell you the thing he is most proud of in life is his family and his children.

There are great examples all around my department of surgeons who balance their interests in life and their commitment to the field.

I would advise you, if serious about considering general surgery, to find more real life mentors, and not depend on (inexperienced, negative) online posters to form your opinions.
--

Now, as to some of your points in the original post.

1. You keep referring to the residency. Like if you can just get through the residency...that kind of misses the point. It's not about the five years...it's about the 20-30 years after that. Surgical practice is hard. Many attendings will tell you some of their roughest years were the first in practice. This is again why I encourage you to find mentors in real life who can show you more of what life beyond residency looks like.

2. Families. About half the residents in my program are married. This is pretty natural and a common breakdown. More in the senior years. Why? Life still happens, even in residency. You meet people, fall in love, have babies. Surgery residency doesn't stop that. Those residents all value their families tremendously. However, they do have to make significant sacrifices. The most common theme among all these relationships is a pretty amazing spouse, who understands the commitment involved.

3. I love what I do. But it's not all sunshine and roses. Residency is hard. I expect my first job to be harder. Just the other night I got stuck at the hospital until after 10 pm with a difficult case and an emergency situation. But when I was getting ready to leave, I ran into one of my juniors who was on call. He asked about the case I had done, so I spent about 5-10 minutes explaining the situation and the operative decision making. This was all while I was mentally fatigued and freaking starving. But I took the extra time. That's a common thing you'll see among surgery residents - taking the extra time. Whether it is for patient care, or teaching. There is an old saying when faced with a difficult decision in surgery - "if it seems hard, it's probably the right thing to do". If that attitude and some of my early morning ramblings seems to ring true with you, then I'd urge you to seriously consider the field.

 

[reverence]

Residency I am sure is different now, but when I trained 15 yrs ago most were miserable. When I did my surg rotation, I was miserable.

I mean those guys did Q3 call for the majority of their 5 yrs and did 120+ hrs/wk during those Q3 calls. Trust me, I know. After one month, I was miserable.

The only more miserable people were the neurosurgeons and their Q2 call who did it for 6 months straight. Yeah.... wrap your head around Q2 call.

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years. Doctors should know more than anyone that life is short. It makes me question whether I really love surgery "that much."

 

[bob123451]

I am starting my intern year in surgery next week. I know that general surgery lifestyle is tough and it requires a lot of sacrifice. Part of me hated it during MS3/4 however the other part of me loved it. A lot of time and effort must go into building a solid knowledge base to face the many critical issues which warrant a surgical consult. As a general surgeon you will be taking care of some of the sickest patients and will be changing many lives. After 5-7 years you will have the option to subspecialize into fields such as oncology, pediatrics, plastics, CT/VS, MIS, Bariatrics, Colorectal ext. Maybe I am naive, but a part of me is humbled to have the opportunity to dedicate a portion of my life to learning surgery and medicine. A lot of things in life take time and dedication and at the end of the day you want to be the best and safest, right? You have a lot of responsibility to be the guy holding the knife.

 

[muqalia]

Life is what you make it to be. Even as a surgeon, if family is truly important to you, you will make time for them......

 

[Dr Nicholas Riviera]

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years.

I know I described my life as an undergrad who worked full time as miserable, but I still loved it. Like muqalia said, it's what you make it. You're a 4th year med student. I'm but a lowly, incoming MS1 but anytime I've described the process of going from undergrad to physician to someone unaware of our little journey and they'll usually remark about how miserable or daunting all the work seems, yet we knowingly march headfirst into it. As short as life can be, a 5 year commitment for a career that allows you to change lives is worth whatever hell we go through if you want it to be.

 

[qw098]

As short as life can be, a 5 year commitment for a career that allows you to change lives is worth whatever hell we go through if you want it to be.

Dad! Look to your right, it's a premed!

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Dad! Look to your right, it's a premed!

It's that time of year when pre-MS1's get brave enough to start posting in allo for the first time


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[tvelocity514]

M3 here, but I've talked to many gen surg residents. The residency sucks (most do anyways) but you can tailor your practice afterwards. You will still have call nights but you can also lead a decently normal life unless you move to the boondocks and you're the only general surgeon around. If you can't see yourself doing anything else, I would advise you doing it. Make sure you have a talk with your S/O about what he/she should be expecting though so that they are prepared for it.

 

[giantswing]

As short as life can be, a 5 year commitment for a career that allows you to change lives is worth whatever hell we go through if you want it to be.

Jebus tap dancing...

...dont go into surgery bc you want to help people or save lives or change lives. Patients for the most part dont give a sh** about you, and the ones that do wont be frequent enough to make it worth it. They wont remember who their doctor is when you do your h and p, they wont remember you.

Go into surgery bc you love operating and wont be happy doing anything else. Peroid.

 

[ohioguy]

Fellow MS4. In the words of our gen surg department chair, "the hours don't get better after residency, but they get more flexible, and that makes all the difference"

I think that's when I put the final nail in the coffin to my surgery aspirations.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I'm so glad you posted this in allo, where you'll get virtually no helpful responses, just a chorus of negativity from people with no relevant experience.

Surgery does require a degree of commitment that is rare even in medicine, a field that already requires a lot of self-sacrifice and commitment.

However, the notion that it means a strict "love surgery first" mindset, or that it requires absentee parenting, being a bad spouse, etc, etc, are worn-thin retreads of stereotypes from twenty years ago.

My department chairman is a fantastic surgeon, has run a successful department and a research lab, and will still tell you the thing he is most proud of in life is his family and his children.

There are great examples all around my department of surgeons who balance their interests in life and their commitment to the field.

I would advise you, if serious about considering general surgery, to find more real life mentors, and not depend on (inexperienced, negative) online posters to form your opinions.
--

Now, as to some of your points in the original post.

1. You keep referring to the residency. Like if you can just get through the residency...that kind of misses the point. It's not about the five years...it's about the 20-30 years after that. Surgical practice is hard. Many attendings will tell you some of their roughest years were the first in practice. This is again why I encourage you to find mentors in real life who can show you more of what life beyond residency looks like.

2. Families. About half the residents in my program are married. This is pretty natural and a common breakdown. More in the senior years. Why? Life still happens, even in residency. You meet people, fall in love, have babies. Surgery residency doesn't stop that. Those residents all value their families tremendously. However, they do have to make significant sacrifices. The most common theme among all these relationships is a pretty amazing spouse, who understands the commitment involved.

3. I love what I do. But it's not all sunshine and roses. Residency is hard. I expect my first job to be harder. Just the other night I got stuck at the hospital until after 10 pm with a difficult case and an emergency situation. But when I was getting ready to leave, I ran into one of my juniors who was on call. He asked about the case I had done, so I spent about 5-10 minutes explaining the situation and the operative decision making. This was all while I was mentally fatigued and freaking starving. But I took the extra time. That's a common thing you'll see among surgery residents - taking the extra time. Whether it is for patient care, or teaching. There is an old saying when faced with a difficult decision in surgery - "if it seems hard, it's probably the right thing to do". If that attitude and some of my early morning ramblings seems to ring true with you, then I'd urge you to seriously consider the field.

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years. Doctors should know more than anyone that life is short. It makes me question whether I really love surgery "that much."

I would take a look at your post and then at the one from SouthernSurgeon before it. Your attitude and his are pretty dramatically different.

If that's a gap you can bridge somehow, go for it, but it doesn't necessarily sound like the best fit.

The attitude that surgery residency is some product of the 7th circle of hell doesn't seem that accurate to my experience, but they certainly have a damn hard job. I couldn't do it. I don't think that's a knock on me, I think that's being honest with myself.

Side note:
It might be my institution, but most surgeons are actually some of the most balanced, kind and dedicated people I've ever met. The idea that they're all divorced and miserable isn't really accurate.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

This, Gen Surg residents as a group are the most miserable I've encountered. There is no close second or third either.

Except obgyn... they take first by a mile.

 

[Derivations]

You work your ass off in high school to get into a good college. You work your ass off in college to get into a good medical school. You work your ass off in medical school to get a good step 1 score. At some point you have to think to yourself, I've worked this hard in my life and my reward has always been someone telling me to work even harder. This is epitomized by the general surg pathway. I tip my hat to those of you who take pleasure in working yourself into an early grave, but I have not one ounce of envy of anyone who chooses to embark on that journey. Life is more than medicine, and the last thing I want is to be 50 and regretting how I wasted away the prime years of my life slaving away in a hospital for 100+ hours a week.

 

[Dr Nicholas Riviera]

well **** me for being positive

 

[NontradCA]

Except obgyn... they take first by a mile.

They're all bad. Doctors are just an insufferable bunch of people. There are exceptions of course.

 

[NWwildcat2013]

They're all bad. Doctors are just an insufferable bunch of people. There are exceptions of course.

So true. Its pretty sad when I can only think of a handful of attendings that I would consider role models and try to mimic in how I practice.

 

[Petypet]

Yal need to get better preceptors, only met a few bitter attendings/residents in all of medical school. Plenty of happy people in every speciality. Do what you love and you can always make the lifestyle work.

 

[ProfMD]

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years. Doctors should know more than anyone that life is short. It makes me question whether I really love surgery "that much."

Any residency is hard. Surgery is certainly time consuming and has its own challenges. There are times as a resident when you are miserable, but I am sure this goes for all specialities. Overall, though, I would not describe my residency as a miserable experience. You know what would have made me miserable, though? Endless rounding on medicine or endless clinic in FM.

Fellow MS4. In the words of our gen surg department chair, "the hours don't get better after residency, but they get more flexible, and that makes all the difference"

I think that's when I put the final nail in the coffin to my surgery aspirations.

The hours do actually get better. My hours are more flexible as an attending and I work fewer of them than when I was a resident. I would say I worked ~85 hours a week as a resident (we had the 88 hour extension) and now I work 50-60 hours a week typically, a bit more if I have a call weekend.

 

[ColoradoHkyMom]

I'm so glad you posted this in allo, where you'll get virtually no helpful responses, just a chorus of negativity from people with no relevant experience.

Surgery does require a degree of commitment that is rare even in medicine, a field that already requires a lot of self-sacrifice and commitment.

However, the notion that it means a strict "love surgery first" mindset, or that it requires absentee parenting, being a bad spouse, etc, etc, are worn-thin retreads of stereotypes from twenty years ago.

My department chairman is a fantastic surgeon, has run a successful department and a research lab, and will still tell you the thing he is most proud of in life is his family and his children.

There are great examples all around my department of surgeons who balance their interests in life and their commitment to the field.

I would advise you, if serious about considering general surgery, to find more real life mentors, and not depend on (inexperienced, negative) online posters to form your opinions.
--

Now, as to some of your points in the original post.

1. You keep referring to the residency. Like if you can just get through the residency...that kind of misses the point. It's not about the five years...it's about the 20-30 years after that. Surgical practice is hard. Many attendings will tell you some of their roughest years were the first in practice. This is again why I encourage you to find mentors in real life who can show you more of what life beyond residency looks like.

2. Families. About half the residents in my program are married. This is pretty natural and a common breakdown. More in the senior years. Why? Life still happens, even in residency. You meet people, fall in love, have babies. Surgery residency doesn't stop that. Those residents all value their families tremendously. However, they do have to make significant sacrifices. The most common theme among all these relationships is a pretty amazing spouse, who understands the commitment involved.

3. I love what I do. But it's not all sunshine and roses. Residency is hard. I expect my first job to be harder. Just the other night I got stuck at the hospital until after 10 pm with a difficult case and an emergency situation. But when I was getting ready to leave, I ran into one of my juniors who was on call. He asked about the case I had done, so I spent about 5-10 minutes explaining the situation and the operative decision making. This was all while I was mentally fatigued and freaking starving. But I took the extra time. That's a common thing you'll see among surgery residents - taking the extra time. Whether it is for patient care, or teaching. There is an old saying when faced with a difficult decision in surgery - "if it seems hard, it's probably the right thing to do". If that attitude and some of my early morning ramblings seems to ring true with you, then I'd urge you to seriously consider the field.

I think what SouthernSurgeon has posted is very true, especially in regards to #2 Families. I have been married to a general surgeon for 34 years, we met when he was a third year med student and married when he graduated medical school. We had two children while he was in residency, with our first child born in July in his third year of residency, where he was the busiest he had ever been. Did he miss a lot of things with our children growing up? Yes, most definitely. I learned very quickly to not rely on him being home to help out with things. We had our second child 3 years later, and because he had done a research year in his 4th year and then a vascular fellowship, he was still a resident. Did things get better when he became an attending? No, because he was a brand new attending, he worked just as hard and as many, if not more hours.

If I was not a very independent wife, I'm not sure how it would have worked. I had to learn how to do things by myself, work as a physical therapist and raise two kids at the same time. When the kids had after school activities to go to, my life was a whirlwind. But, we raised two great kids who were athletic, intelligent, and most of all just nice kids.

Now as adults, I can say that both of our kids are closer than ever to their dad, because they can discuss so many things with him. Sometimes their conversations are way over my head!

We've lived in 5 different states, with job changes, but luckily our kids spent most of their growing up in one state.

Is the life of a general surgeon, or any surgeon easy? No, but I don't think my husband would have been happy in any other specialty. Is he unhappy? Sometimes, but overall I think he is satisfied. He still has time to work out, do triathlons, run races, play tennis, ski, wakeboard and a lot of stuff "old men" don't do.

I don't know what he will do when he retires in a few years, I think he needs to be busy and productive and doing intellectual things.

 

[Crayola227]

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years. Doctors should know more than anyone that life is short. It makes me question whether I really love surgery "that much."

this is because I think that the pursuit of medicine is like an addiction and meets simple criteria for defining it:

"continued pursuit in the face of increasing harms"

the more you consider workaholism and addiction, the more you will understand the love/hate you see in medicine
humans have an enormous capacity for "loving" the things that hurt us

check out the Laundry List traits from the Adult Children of Alcoholics/Dysfunctional Families!
I see it in a lot of my colleagues

http://www.adultchildren.org/lit-Laundry_List

I think really heavy introspection and really figuring out what makes you tick and what your *true* motivations are for a field are essential

 

[ohioguy]

Any residency is hard. Surgery is certainly time consuming and has its own challenges. There are times as a resident when you are miserable, but I am sure this goes for all specialities. Overall, though, I would not describe my residency as a miserable experience. You know what would have made me miserable, though? Endless rounding on medicine or endless clinic in FM.



The hours do actually get better. My hours are more flexible as an attending and I work fewer of them than when I was a resident. I would say I worked ~85 hours a week as a resident (we had the 88 hour extension) and now I work 50-60 hours a week typically, a bit more if I have a call weekend.

Of course there are exceptions. Even if I was guaranteed a 50 hour work week by residency's end, I still wouldn't do it.

During my gen surg rotation, I would drive to the hospital at 4:30 am and would often hope that I got into some fender bender to delay my arrival. Can't imagine living like that for 6+ years.

 

[deleted451730]

this is because I think that the pursuit of medicine is like an addiction and meets simple criteria for defining it:

"continued pursuit in the face of increasing harms"

the more you consider workaholism and addiction, the more you will understand the love/hate you see in medicine

This. The more and more I realize: What else would I be doing with my life (career-wise)?

 

[Stagg737]

You work your ass off in high school to get into a good college. You work your ass off in college to get into a good medical school. You work your ass off in medical school to get a good step 1 score. At some point you have to think to yourself, I've worked this hard in my life and my reward has always been someone telling me to work even harder. This is epitomized by the general surg pathway. I tip my hat to those of you who take pleasure in working yourself into an early grave, but I have not one ounce of envy of anyone who chooses to embark on that journey. Life is more than medicine, and the last thing I want is to be 50 and regretting how I wasted away the prime years of my life slaving away in a hospital for 100+ hours a week.

I think this hits the nail on the head. When it comes down to it, you've got to be realistic with yourself and what your priorities are. I've considered surgery a lot and was 95% sure I knew what I wanted to do when I started med school. Now, knowing how much of a commitment just the first two years of med school have been and the fact that I value family time so much, I know the surgery lifestyle wouldn't work for me. If I were single it would be a completely different story, but my priorities have changed and it's definitely something that I'll have to be realistic with myself about going forward.

I think what SouthernSurgeon has posted is very true, especially in regards to #2 Families. I have been married to a general surgeon for 34 years, we met when he was a third year med student and married when he graduated medical school. We had two children while he was in residency, with our first child born in July in his third year of residency, where he was the busiest he had ever been. Did he miss a lot of things with our children growing up? Yes, most definitely. I learned very quickly to not rely on him being home to help out with things. We had our second child 3 years later, and because he had done a research year in his 4th year and then a vascular fellowship, he was still a resident. Did things get better when he became an attending? No, because he was a brand new attending, he worked just as hard and as many, if not more hours.

If I was not a very independent wife, I'm not sure how it would have worked. I had to learn how to do things by myself, work as a physical therapist and raise two kids at the same time. When the kids had after school activities to go to, my life was a whirlwind. But, we raised two great kids who were athletic, intelligent, and most of all just nice kids.

Now as adults, I can say that both of our kids are closer than ever to their dad, because they can discuss so many things with him. Sometimes their conversations are way over my head!

We've lived in 5 different states, with job changes, but luckily our kids spent most of their growing up in one state.

Is the life of a general surgeon, or any surgeon easy? No, but I don't think my husband would have been happy in any other specialty. Is he unhappy? Sometimes, but overall I think he is satisfied. He still has time to work out, do triathlons, run races, play tennis, ski, wakeboard and a lot of stuff "old men" don't do.

I don't know what he will do when he retires in a few years, I think he needs to be busy and productive and doing intellectual things.

Just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I feel like a lot of people talk about the other half of the relationship, what it's like for them, and what qualities they have to have but we rarely get that perspective firsthand. Glad to hear it worked out so well for you and your husband and that even in the more time-consuming specialties there can still be time to have a real life outside the clinic.

 

[dr zaius]

If you can see yourself doing anything in medicine other than operating...do that.

Residency is brutal. You get beaten down daily. The hours are absurd. The **** you deal with is absurd. When you take a breath and step back it's all completely comical.

But when you get into the OR that all seems to fade away. You don't care about any of it. You're focused on what you're doing, and you realize you love it. That's when you know it's worth it, and doing derm would have been a huge mistake.

Having a family in residency is hard. You're absent a lot. You're not very reliable, because the moment you say sure, I'll be home at 7pm, something rolls in at 530pm and you're stuck for the next 4-5 hours. It can be bad, and it destroys marriages and relationships.

But residency is hard for almost everyone. Even "lifestyle" surgical specialties like ENT, or my specialty, urology, are draining. You're putting in your time and learning the trade. There's no other way to do it. There is light at the end of the tunnel, though. Even for gen surg. Do breast/soft tissue. Do minimally invasive/bariatric. You can subspecialize into a more elective field. No matter what you do, though, residency is going to be tough, and it's going to strain your relationships. Medicine and FM also strain relationships. It's the beast that is healthcare.

 

[charmiedermie]

I am still trying to make sense of how often I hear the word miserable used by surgeons, in hindsight, or surgery residents, to describe their current status. Yet they will say they love what they are doing. I really struggle with understanding how something could be worth being miserable for 5+ years. Doctors should know more than anyone that life is short. It makes me question whether I really love surgery "that much."

Stockholm syndrome, which starts in med school. It's why we were left in the dust in healthcare reform and now we're fighting for scraps.

 

[Mad Jack]

This, Gen Surg residents as a group are the most miserable I've encountered. There is no close second or third either.

I watched general surgery interns go from some of my favorite people to some of the most miserable and hated in the hospital over the course of their five years. Even the doggedly overworked IM residents seemed to be more haggard but still relatively themselves, but general surgery completely tore down people as human beings. Some were still alright, but a lot of them... Ugh, poor things.

 

[Stagg737]

I watched general surgery interns go from some of my favorite people to some of the most miserable and hated in the hospital over the course of their five years. Even the doggedly overworked IM residents seemed to be more haggard but still relatively themselves, but general surgery completely tore down people as human beings. Some were still alright, but a lot of them... Ugh, poor things.

One of our professors said exactly this. He was originally a surgery resident but quit and transferred into FM during his second or third year. He did it because he hated the person he was becoming and he was sure that if he didn't get out it would have completely destroyed his marriage. I'm sure there are plenty of positives like southernsurgeon said, and that there are plenty of people that this doesn't happen to. But with how many times I've heard the same thing and the fact that it's even relatively prevalent in discussion makes it something worth strongly considering before entering the field, imo.

 

[ProfMD]

One of our professors said exactly this. He was originally a surgery resident but quit and transferred into FM during his second or third year. He did it because he hated the person he was becoming and he was sure that if he didn't get out it would have completely destroyed his marriage. I'm sure there are plenty of positives like southernsurgeon said, and that there are plenty of people that this doesn't happen to. But with how many times I've heard the same thing and the fact that it's even relatively prevalent in discussion makes it something worth strongly considering before entering the field, imo.

While it is an important consideration, there is a flip side. The ones I know who turned into miserable hateful people are ones who probably never should have signed up for surgery in the first place. They did it for prestige, or money, or parental pressure, or some other reason besides love of the field. Then, they switched out and were much happier, or they stuck with it and remained miserable.

Hence the importance of the advice that if you can see yourself doing anything else, do that.

Of course, there are miserable hateful people who love surgery too - but they usually started out that way.

 

[giantswing]

While it is an important consideration, there is a flip side. The ones I know who turned into miserable hateful people are ones who probably never should have signed up for surgery in the first place. They did it for prestige, or money, or parental pressure, or some other reason besides love of the field. Then, they switched out and were much happier, or they stuck with it and remained miserable.

Hence the importance of the advice that if you can see yourself doing anything else, do that.

Of course, there are miserable hateful people who love surgery too - but they usually started out that way.

Yeah was just going to say, some people use it as an excuse to unleash the inner ahole that they tried (or didnt) to keep a lid on. I know two gen surg residents who get their kicks out of being nasty to peple, and brag to each other about it.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Surgical residency is tough; you are left with little free time, and it is usually unpredictable when that free time will occur. Your SO will have to be independent and allow their life to revolve around yours. Relationships are strained when expectations are not realistic.

You can still have a very fulfilling life outside of work, but it takes effort.

Miserable personalities: this isn't the 1970's-80's. We are NOT working 120+ hours a week. We are NOT taking q2 call routinely. People who have a nasty attitude are of two types: those who are nasty no matter what specialty, and those who believe in "old school surgery personalities." So, while being nasty was never justified, it REALLY isn't in our era. Now, you might consider a blunt or persistent surgical resident as being "miserable," but I would disagree with that. We take ownership of our patients, and we bend over backgrounds to take care of them (and try to bend the entire system with us, i.e. high expectations).

"Don't do surgery unless it's the only thing you can see yourself doing" is very immature. Anyone who says I can only see myself doing one specialty is not realistic. I would have been happy in anesthesia/CC/GI or perhaps EM. Not nearly as happy as I am being a surgeon, but that's a personal decision for everyone to make. One shouldn't make the decision without thorough reflection on their priorities and why they want to become a surgeon, but ultimately, we can find satisfaction taking care of patients in a number of venues. Whether or not the sacrifice is worthwhile is very personal, and often you won't know until you've gone through 2-3 years of training.

 

[Mr Roboto]

One of our professors said exactly this. He was originally a surgery resident but quit and transferred into FM during his second or third year. He did it because he hated the person he was becoming and he was sure that if he didn't get out it would have completely destroyed his marriage. I'm sure there are plenty of positives like southernsurgeon said, and that there are plenty of people that this doesn't happen to. But with how many times I've heard the same thing and the fact that it's even relatively prevalent in discussion makes it something worth strongly considering before entering the field, imo.

My two favorite EDPs were both surgical residents who quit 2-3 years in, after realizing how toxic they'd become. They're both very happy with their decisions.

 

[giantswing]

Surgical residency is tough; you are left with little free time, and it is usually unpredictable when that free time will occur. Your SO will have to be independent and allow their life to revolve around yours. Relationships are strained when expectations are not realistic.

You can still have a very fulfilling life outside of work, but it takes effort.

Miserable personalities: this isn't the 1970's-80's. We are NOT working 120+ hours a week. We are NOT taking q2 call routinely. People who have a nasty attitude are of two types: those who are nasty no matter what specialty, and those who believe in "old school surgery personalities." So, while being nasty was never justified, it REALLY isn't in our era. Now, you might consider a blunt or persistent surgical resident as being "miserable," but I would disagree with that. We take ownership of our patients, and we bend over backgrounds to take care of them (and try to bend the entire system with us, i.e. high expectations).

"Don't do surgery unless it's the only thing you can see yourself doing" is very immature. Anyone who says I can only see myself doing one specialty is not realistic. I would have been happy in anesthesia/CC/GI or perhaps EM. Not nearly as happy as I am being a surgeon, but that's a personal decision for everyone to make. One shouldn't make the decision without thorough reflection on their priorities and why they want to become a surgeon, but ultimately, we can find satisfaction taking care of patients in a number of venues. Whether or not the sacrifice is worthwhile is very personal, and often you won't know until you've gone through 2-3 years of training.

Personalities: imo, the medicine people are easier going and much more of a social mindset and personality, which can clash when met with a brisk get this done attitude. Medicine people feel good about their interaction with the patient, a surgeon sees the interavtion as a formality to do what they really love, which is operate. The truely miserable people are a class of their own.

Second point: I disagree, and would tell my kids if you think you can be happy and fulfilled doing anything non surgical, do the other thing. I hated, absolutely hated, just about everything in med school and didnt really have a back up plan when i applied, and i love the field im in. Fortunately everything panned out. But to each their own.

 

[PhillyMed777]

I hated, absolutely hated, just about everything in med school and didnt really have a back up plan when i applied, and i love the field im in.

Care to share which field?

 

[giantswing]

Care to share which field?

Ortho