FL Job Outlook

[PAtoPharm]

the thing is that since you don't actually work in a pharmacy, and are still a student you don't have the experience to see the ebbs and flows of the profession. your example of Georgia graduating more pharmacy students than jobs is flawed in that many students go to school out of state to return to their hometown, or move out of state after graduating, rather its for residency or jobs, or want a change. the reason for Georgia or Atlanta's oversaturation is more so the city itself and not the profession if that makes sense. The job market in Atlanta regardless of profession is pretty saturated b/c of people migrating there, in the late 90's early 2000's, a lot of people from the northern states, ie DC, NY, NJ moved down to Atlanta due to the cheap housing market, and Atlanta being a business hub. Then you had many others who moved post Katrina. all of this to say most jobs in Atlanta are completely saturated and have been this way since the 90's.

The other flaw is everyone who graduates pharmacy school, does not go into pharmacy per se. not everyone does retail or hospital. several go into biotechnology, go into law, and get their JD, information technology, or pharmaceutical research, get their MPH also and go the CDC r or even the FDA route.(I know a couple of those) I know a few that work at big pharma, and used their pharmd degree as a way to do research without having to go the PhD route. then you have some who never actually practice pharmacy, such as stay at home moms, or those that are military wives and are overseas, which I know a few of those too

All of that to say, every person graduating pharmacy school isn't directly competing with you for a job. you have to have a glass half full vs glass half empty mindset. and a I know a few PA's too. not all of them are making 140k with all those great benefits. actually all the PA's I know work 2-3 jobs. I do envy them for their job flexability, but most work 14 on 14 off shifts, and use the 14 off days to work their 2nd job. also typically the SE doesn't pay PAs that well. the highest paid I know of are in the NE ie New York, and I know Baltimore paid well. also, it depends on their specialty, so general practice PA's are not making 140k, may 80-90k, to make the big bucks you have to be in orthopedics or cardiology.

Even though some pharmacists pursue the alternative career routes you mentioned, don't at least 70% of pharmacists still work in retail pharmacies? Also, it isn't just Atlanta that is saturated; even the medium-sized cities (I.e., the traditionally undesirable cities of GA) are becoming saturated. In fact, I know of at least two medium-sized cities in GA that are requiring a PGY1 or PGY2 just for an entry-level hospital staff pharmacist job. Even if not all PAs make $140k (although PAs working in rural FP clinics can -- I posted a job ad for one a couple weeks ago), the fact is that their job market is much better than the one for pharmacists, and at least they still have the luxury of choosing where they want to live/practice. Their job market will probably become saturated eventually (by 2025 according to the HRSA), but so far, there are no indications that their job market has already reached saturation, unlike the case for pharmacy. I also understand that PAs can complete 1-year residencies and (at many practices) start out earning what a PA who has been at that same practice for 5 years would make. Also, the fact that PA school is a shorter and cheaper route is appealing.

.... Actually, that's really what it boils down to -- besides the money, it just makes more sense to pursue something that has a much better job market, takes less time and money to become qualified for, and may or may not (probably will) result in a higher salary. Not having to move to BFE for an indeterminate amount of time is worth it alone.

That's what I mean when I say I'm having a hard time getting motivated to follow through on pharmacy. In other professions, extra training/schooling actually results in better opportunities and more money, whereas in pharmacy, extra training (residency) is now required just to qualify for entry-level hospital positions paying <$40/hr in the southeast.

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[PAtoPharm]

This is actually what will make the difference. The pharmacy student who got to some degree mill with a 2.3 GPA and <30 PCAT composite, who has never stepped foot inside a pharmacy outside of their rotations, shows no ambition or drive, has the personality of a stone, yet somehow manages to pass the NAPLEX (which is going to become less and less likely as time goes in -- see the numberous 2016 NAPLEX threads) will be among the unemployed.
The increasingly rare pharmacist who has the right mix of intelligence, personality, and work ethic will always be a valued commodity. Too many people expect to under-perform and still have the world handed to them. People with that attitude are going to be eaten alive by their more capable and ambitious colleagues.

So when the saturation reaches critical levels over the next few years (I.e., 50,000-70,000 unemployed pharmacists), people will simply point out that those folks didn't do enough to go above and beyond in making themselves more competitive pharmacy students than the other 50,000-70,000 unemployed pharmacists, and that's it?

It seems like people aren't considering the other side of it; if there are almost no jobs in a state/region, then isn't there only so much someone can do to make themselves more competitive for one of those few jobs? For example, if a particular state only has ~150 jobs around the same time that 600+ pharmacy students graduate, then ~450 of those graduating pharmacists will either be out of a job or have no choice but to move to BFE. The only point I'm trying to make is that hustling and networking can't get everyone a job when (and this is the key point) the saturation is on the order of magnitude that it is and will be. Someone else posted in this thread or a similar one a few days ago where they talked about how they still had to move to BFE to find a job even though they hustled, interned, and networked.

People criticize me for having the wrong sort of mindset when I say that I want to be able to simply graduate and find a job, but I think that's a very relevant point to consider. I referenced one of my former AA school classmates getting a job offer for $140k despite never hustling, never interning, never working, and never doing anything besides be a good student, and that is because that profession is currently in a more balanced state of supply/demand, although the scale is currently "leaning" towards the demand side. That's really what it boils down to for me... I just want to pursue a profession that is actually experiencing enough demand so as to not obligate students to go to above-and-beyond extremes and outcompete 70% of their classmates just to find whatever job they can.

Actually, maybe you can see where I'm coming from if I put it like this: maybe there's nothing inherently wrong with pursuing a career with such dire job market prospects as pharmacy, but it just doesn't make sense to me to pursue a career in that state of conditions when it takes so much time and money to do so. It's like spending thousands of dollars in plane flights and hotel expenses just to visit some BFE town's crappy local fair. If you're going to go to those lengths, why not do all of that for something more worthwhile?

 

[gwarm01]

I don't disagree with you. This profession is following the same trajectory as law. Too many schools, flooded with subpar students who didn't do their research and a small percentage of top performers who will be successful. At least until salaries are cut in half and anyone with self respect moves on.

 

[TheBlaah]

This is still going on? Good lord, another thread derailed by PAtoPharm.

 

[Seriously Serious]

All of these toxic SDN threads are demotivating pharmacy students such as PAtoPharm... Perhaps if we generate more of them, we can discourage enough students to drop out and fix saturation (;

 

[Seriously Serious]

One of my classmates recently dropped out after first semester for PA school, and I'm also from the south... what a coincidence....

 

[magicgradstudent]

Case Western Reserve University extended their application deadline not once, but twice this cycle for their AA program. One of my friends is applying or looking into it and was telling me he keeps getting emails. Not sure what it exactly means but I'm imagining you don't need to extend your deadline for applications TWICE if it's so competitive and the grass is so much greener..

 

[PAtoPharm]

Case Western Reserve University extended their application deadline not once, but twice this cycle for their AA program. One of my friends is applying or looking into it and was telling me he keeps getting emails. Not sure what it exactly means but I'm imagining you don't need to extend your deadline for applications TWICE if it's so competitive and the grass is so much greener..

Here's the thing. Until just a few years ago, there were only a few AA programs, and most of them were concentrated in the southeast (Case's program in Ohio was the exception). Since ~2010, however, a number of new programs have been established, such as a satellite program by Case (I think), one or two satellite programs by UMKC, a new program in Wisconsin, a new program in CT, and probably one or two other new programs I'm not thinking about. Before all these new AA programs (and satellite programs founded by established schools) were founded, someone's options for applying to AA school were basically limited to Case, Emory, South U., and NSU. Now, between the new programs as well as the satellite programs, there are more than twice as many AA programs to apply to. Even though AA programs have always been fairly competitive to get accepted to, they were typically "3.4-3.6 GPA competitive," not "3.7-4.0 GPA competitive." Now that there are at least 2x as many seats for AA students throughout the country, several AA programs have had recent matriculating class averages of ~3.4. Having said that and based on the fact that your friend has received recruitment emails from them, it sounds like the programs are starting to have a hard time filling all their seats.

This is one reason why I at least think I have a chance of getting accepted to another AA program, although I know I'm obviously not a shoe-in candidate. If the schools are starting to have a harder time filling their seats, then at least one (maybe even two) of them will be likely to extend me an interview invitation. The same thing is starting to occur with general PA programs as more and more of them are established.

 

[bulldog1123]

Pharm school extends their deadline = the sky is falling. AA school extends their deadline = "no big deal, there is a good reason behind that..."

You're double standard is mind boggling. Which is a pity because you make many valid points which I agree with.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Pharm school extends their deadline = the sky is falling. AA school extends their deadline = "no big deal, there is a good reason behind that..."

You're double standard is mind boggling. Which is a pity because you make many valid points which I agree with.

There is no double standard; the respective reasons as to why pharmacy schools and AA schools are extending their application deadlines are caused by different factors; yes, both types of programs extended their deadlines to give their programs more time to hopefully receive more applications, but AA programs and pharmacy programs are having a hard time attracting applicants for different reasons. Pharmacy schools can't attract applicants because there are way too many schools and there is a lack of interest in the field from qualified "pre-med" applicants. On the other hand, some of the AA programs are having a harder time attracting applicants simply because there are more programs now, while the overall size of the AA program applicant pool has always been relatively small. In other words, AA programs aren't dealing with a lack of applicants because the perception of their profession's job market is abysmal -- they're just having a hard time (at least according to the poster above regarding one school) filling their seats because there apparently hasn't been a proportional increase in the number of applicants as compared to the additional number of seats.

Edit: here is another way to look at it: 100% of graduating AAs find jobs paying $120k-$160k to start, even in large desirable cities like Atlanta, so applicants aren't being discouraged by the job market. You have to keep in mind that most people (even those working in healthcare) have never heard of AAs. The profession has always been a relatively small one. Also, they can't even work in more than 17 or 18 states (most of them are in the southeast, along with a few midwest and NE states). They can't work in CA, NY, or NJ (among other states), so that automatically thins out the applicant pool.

 

[bulldog1123]

There is no double standard; the respective reasons as to why pharmacy schools and AA schools are extending their application deadlines are caused by different factors; yes, both types of programs extended their deadlines to give their programs more time to hopefully receive more applications, but AA programs and pharmacy programs are having a hard time attracting applicants for different reasons. Pharmacy schools can't attract applicants because there are way too many schools and there is a lack of interest in the field from qualified "pre-med" applicants. On the other hand, some of the AA programs are having a harder time attracting applicants simply because there are more programs now, while the overall size of the AA program applicant pool has always been relatively small. In other words, AA programs aren't dealing with a lack of applicants because the perception of their profession's job market is abysmal -- they're just having a hard time (at least according to the poster above regarding one school) filling their seats because there apparently hasn't been a proportional increase in the number of applicants as compared to the additional number of seats.

Edit: here is another way to look at it: 100% of graduating AAs find jobs paying $120k-$160k to start, even in large desirable cities like Atlanta, so applicants aren't being discouraged by the job market. You have to keep in mind that most people (even those working in healthcare) have never heard of AAs. The profession has always been a relatively small one. Also, they can't even work in more than 17 or 18 states (most of them are in the southeast, along with a few midwest and NE states). They can't work in CA, NY, or NJ (among other states), so that automatically thins out the applicant pool.

Have you considered the fact that the total number of AA jobs (filled and unfilled across the nation) is vastly less than pharmacist jobs? There is a reason why professions like AA or podiatry for example have a very small amount of schools. The positions arent there relative to other healthcare professionals. Thats not to justify pharmacy schools btw. The positions are there along with flexibility for the degree to find non-traditional positions but schools are outpacing the demand. But no matter what I discuss with you, there will be a counter from you. My point is simply, pharmacy isn't the golden ticket it used to be. I agree completely with you. But what field is anymore? You are wearing green tinted glasses while you look at other fields. Just please be prepared to put in work and effort OUTSIDE of your studies in order to land this perfect job you are looking for. The big take away from all your posts, as much as you may try to deny it, is you are looking for handouts. Do A B C and D and land a 150k job with 6 weeks vacation and a brand new Lexus. Then you cite the 1 in a thousand case that did get that. Everyone who achieved in life had to do E F G H I and the rest of the alphabet to get to the success they achieved.

As for the starting AA salary. Look again.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..6.1.62.Ot6IIve6OVE

100% are not starting 120K. Some start at 95K. A good number might, but quit your over exaggerations and under exaggerations. Just like how 100% of clinical pharmacists in GA (or the rest of the nation) don't make less than $40 an hour like you constantly use to explain why pharmacy is in the gutter. You really need to remove those green tinted glasses.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Have you considered the fact that the total number of AA jobs (filled and unfilled across the nation) is vastly less than pharmacist jobs? There is a reason why professions like AA or podiatry for example have a very small amount of schools. The positions arent there relative to other healthcare professionals. Thats not to justify pharmacy schools btw. The positions are there along with flexibility for the degree to find non-traditional positions but schools are outpacing the demand. But no matter what I discuss with you, there will be a counter from you. My point is simply, pharmacy isn't the golden ticket it used to be. I agree completely with you. But what field is anymore? You are wearing green tinted glasses while you look at other fields. Just please be prepared to put in work and effort OUTSIDE of your studies in order to land this perfect job you are looking for. The big take away from all your posts, as much as you may try to deny it, is you are looking for handouts. Do A B C and D and land a 150k job with 6 weeks vacation and a brand new Lexus. Then you cite the 1 in a thousand case that did get that. Everyone who achieved in life had to do E F G H I and the rest of the alphabet to get to the success they achieved.

As for the starting AA salary. Look again.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..6.1.62.Ot6IIve6OVE

100% are not starting 120K. Some start at 95K. A good number might, but quit your over exaggerations and under exaggerations. Just like how 100% of clinical pharmacists in GA (or the rest of the nation) don't make less than $40 an hour like you constantly use to explain why pharmacy is in the gutter. You really need to remove those green tinted glasses.

The salary stats in the link you posted are over 10 years old (from 2006 or before); they were originally published by the organization that accredits AA programs (NCCA or something like that) way back then. For a more accurate indication of current starting salaries, here is a website that shows job listings for AAs in the country:

http://gaswork.com/search/Anesthesiologist-Assistants/Job/All

As you can see, there are no advertised starting salaries that are lower than $110k (and there are only a couple of jobs offering only that much). $120k truly is the average starting salary for AAs these days. It's also just as much or even higher for CRNAs (increased flexibility, able to talk call without an anesthesiologist present, etc.). As you can see, more desirable areas tend to offer slightly lower starting salaries (which happens to be the case for most professions), but that's still a much better deal than pharmacy, where NO jobs are left in desirable areas. In other words, someone graduating today from AA/CRNA school could easily find a job in Atlanta or south FL; on the other hand, those markets are basically totally saturated in pharmacy. Also, 4-6 weeks of PTO plus paid holidays/sick days is the norm in the AA/CRNA professions, not part of a lucky, one-of-a-kind offer that only the really great students get. BTW, nobody who is an AA student is expected to work outside of class to make themselves more competitive for a job at graduation. That's just never been the case. PAs aren't expected to either.

The only point I am trying to make is that a "standard issue" AA/CRNA job offers so much more than what the standard pharmacist job has become. Nobody who goes to AA (or even general PA) school is looking for a handout, simply because you don't need to depend on receiving one; you simply are obligated to pass the classes, do relatively well in clinicals, and you will have a job. It's kind of similar to how it works with medical or dental students in the sense that they aren't expected to work, volunteer, present posters, etc. while in school. However, medical/dental/AA/PA students aren't lazy for not working or hustling as students; they're just following the norms of those professions.

Edited to add: if you notice on the Gaswork.com site, there are plenty of AA jobs in desirable large cities, AND plenty of jobs in the same rural BFE wastelands that recent pharmacy school graduates are having to relocate to. Obviously, this is simply an indication that the AA/CRNA job market is experiencing greater demand than the pharmacy job market, and it also explains why starting salaries for AAs are higher than for pharmacists.

 

[angiepharm]

its funny b/c i have a in-law family member who is a AA, and from conversations with her, there are not a whole lot of jobs, and i know for a fact she isn't making 140k. she is having to practice in alabama away from her family b/c there aren't a lot of jobs in her home state

 

[PAtoPharm]

its funny b/c i have a in-law family member who is a AA, and from conversations with her, there are not a whole lot of jobs, and i know for a fact she isn't making 140k. she is having to practice in alabama away from her family b/c there aren't a lot of jobs in her home state

Becoming an AA really isn't the best option if you're not from one of the states that AAs have been practicing in for years already. The majority of jobs have traditionally been in the southeast, although new states are starting to open up. You should check out the link I posted above to get an idea of starting salaries (the salary data me and the other AA students were shown when I was a student also said the most common starting salary was $120k).

Are you sure your in-law isn't from a state where AAs are not allowed to become licensed? There is a surprising number of people who go to AA school even though they are from states that AAs can't work in. They just plan on not returning to their home state.

 

[PharmerIsMe]

Are you sure your phone number or email is correct on your applications? Or no other super horrible mistakes on your application or resume? 300 applications with no response seems extreme to me, but maybe I'm really out of touch with job markets.

Yup, everything is super clear. And yes I have received responses here and there, but all of them are rejections...The biggest problem I am finding here in FL is that no one wants to give the opportunity to new graduates...It is clear to me that FL only wants experienced pharmacist. So I am applying everywhere to see if someone picks me up.

 

[gwarm01]

Yup, everything is super clear. And yes I have received responses here and there, but all of them are rejections...The biggest problem I am finding here in FL is that no one wants to give the opportunity to new graduates...It is clear to me that FL only wants experienced pharmacist. So I am applying everywhere to see if someone picks me up.

Have you had anyone review your resume? Who knows, maybe just cleaning a few items up could make you stand out more.

 

[PAtoPharm]

@bulldog1123 I just thought of another way to get one of my points across. Even if some of the AA job listings out there really did offer just $95k starting salaries, keep in mind that this would be a starting salary of $95k for a degree that takes just over two years to complete. On the other hand, the vast majority of hospital pharmacists (outside of CA) start at lower salaries than that, and to simply meet the bare-minimum qualifications for a hospital pharmacist job, completion of a PGY1/PGY2 is essentially a requirement now. In other words, you'd be comparing $95k offered to an AA who spent just over 2 years in graduate school to $80k-$90k offered to a pharmacist who has completed a 4-year Pharm.D. plus an additional 1-2 years of residency. As you can see, an AA accepting a bottom-rung AA position is still better off than the pharmacist, simply because the AA only had to spend barely more than 1/3 the amount of time in school/training to make MORE money.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Then do AA bro.

Pharmacy is 6 years for some people like me.

Either AA or general PA would be good options, I think.

So you did a PGY-2? Worth it?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Nope, no residency

Then how did it take 6 years? Is that 6 years after college?

 

[angiepharm]

Then how did it take 6 years? Is that 6 years after college?

2 years pre pharmacy, 4 years pharmacy school.

where are you getting this 90k for hospital pharmacist? most hospital staffing positions pay a lot more than that, clinical even more. with retail paying the most of course. even the VA, which pays the least makes more than that.

 

[PAtoPharm]

2 years pre pharmacy, 4 years pharmacy school.

where are you getting this 90k for hospital pharmacist? most hospital staffing positions pay a lot more than that, clinical even more. with retail paying the most of course. even the VA, which pays the least makes more than that.

Small and medium-sized cities in GA and AL start hospital pharmacists off at < $90k. In fact, gwarm1 even posted a link to a pharmacist job opening at a hospital that was offering $38/hr. Actually, in medium-sized and small towns outside of Atlanta, it's fairly common for hospitals to start pharmacists off at $80k-$85k. These numbers were told to me by a hospital DOP who hires pharmacists.

Also, the hospitals even the larger, more desirable cities in the southeast are lowering their starting salaries as they become more saturated. Earlier in this thread or another one, someone posted a link to a job opening for a pharmacist to work at a hospital in Miami. It was offering a FT starting salary of just $70k. I don't know where you're from, but the southeast is definitely the antithesis to California when it comes to starting salaries (assuming you can even find a job outside of BFE anymore, as all southeastern states are rapidly marching towards total saturation).

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Small and medium-sized cities in GA and AL start hospital pharmacists off at < $90k. In fact, gwarm1 even posted a link to a pharmacist job opening at a hospital that was offering $38/hr. Actually, in medium-sized and small towns outside of Atlanta, it's fairly common for hospitals to start pharmacists off at $80k-$85k. These numbers were told to me by a hospital DOP who hires pharmacists.

Also, the hospitals even the larger, more desirable cities in the southeast are lowering their starting salaries as they become more saturated. Earlier in this thread or another one, someone posted a link to a job opening for a pharmacist to work at a hospital in Miami. It was offering a FT starting salary of just $70k. I don't know where you're from, but the southeast is definitely the antithesis to California when it comes to starting salaries (assuming you can even find a job outside of BFE anymore, as all southeastern states are rapidly marching towards total saturation).

So the pharmacy residencies for hospital are 100% cheap labor resume fillers and have a decreasing pay incentive now?

I had a friend peace out from school and move to a rural area. Two years later...retail manager for his store. He mentioned hospital programs were bogus but I was a little skeptical.

Do the programs even differ remotely from the rotation? Do you learn more on different floors or is the end of the rotation legitimately entry level and then there just aren't jobs?.....So you're cheap labor for 1-2 years waiting for a position to open up....

 

[gwarm01]

Either AA or general PA would be good options, I think.

So you did a PGY-2? Worth it?

I think you should give AA another shot since it seems to be what you really want to do, but do you think you'll be ready to handle the lab again? You need to be mentally prepared for that kind of high stress environment or it'll be all for nothing.

2 years pre pharmacy, 4 years pharmacy school.

where are you getting this 90k for hospital pharmacist? most hospital staffing positions pay a lot more than that, clinical even more. with retail paying the most of course. even the VA, which pays the least makes more than that.

90k isn't uncommon for new grads working at a hospital in a lot of southern cities. I started at $44/hr in 2013. Still cleared around 105k with shift differential and OT though.

 

[TheBlaah]

Small and medium-sized cities in GA and AL start hospital pharmacists off at < $90k. In fact, gwarm1 even posted a link to a pharmacist job opening at a hospital that was offering $38/hr. Actually, in medium-sized and small towns outside of Atlanta, it's fairly common for hospitals to start pharmacists off at $80k-$85k. These numbers were told to me by a hospital DOP who hires pharmacists.

Also, the hospitals even the larger, more desirable cities in the southeast are lowering their starting salaries as they become more saturated. Earlier in this thread or another one, someone posted a link to a job opening for a pharmacist to work at a hospital in Miami. It was offering a FT starting salary of just $70k. I don't know where you're from, but the southeast is definitely the antithesis to California when it comes to starting salaries (assuming you can even find a job outside of BFE anymore, as all southeastern states are rapidly marching towards total saturation).

I can assure you that you're wrong about most of these findings.

First, generally small and medium-sized cities in GA generally pay more than Atlanta does because they need a way to incentivize job seekers. I'm not necessarily a new grad, but I'm pretty close so I'll list some of the offers I've received <1 year ago as examples when I went on an application spree. Two different hospital in Augusta: $48/hr and $50/hr. Macon: 50.90/hr. Savannah: 49.30/hr. Small rural hospital: 48.08/hr. Athens: 47/hr. As for Atlanta, while I personally am only certain of the paygrade of one of the larger hospital systems, I have several friends who are also recently graduated who are on a similar payscale. These three hospital systems usually started around 44-46/hr. The shift differentials differed, but generally it was around 2-4/hr for evenings or weekends, or in the case of the rural hospital you just got to work fewer hours. I'm not sure who this DOP you're talking to, but either they're lying to you or lowballing everybody.

Only thing I'd say you're correct on is that larger hospital systems have started to lower the starting salaries.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I can assure you that you're wrong about most of these findings.

First, generally small and medium-sized cities in GA generally pay more than Atlanta does because they need a way to incentivize job seekers. I'm not necessarily a new grad, but I'm pretty close so I'll list some of the offers I've received <1 year ago as examples when I went on an application spree. Two different hospital in Augusta: $48/hr and $50/hr. Macon: 50.90/hr. Savannah: 49.30/hr. Small rural hospital: 48.08/hr. Athens: 47/hr. As for Atlanta, while I personally am only certain of the paygrade of one of the larger hospital systems, I have several friends who are also recently graduated who are on a similar payscale. These three hospital systems usually started around 44-46/hr. The shift differentials differed, but generally it was around 2-4/hr for evenings or weekends, or in the case of the rural hospital you just got to work fewer hours. I'm not sure who this DOP you're talking to, but either they're lying to you or lowballing everybody.

Only thing I'd say you're correct on is that larger hospital systems have started to lower the starting salaries.

I don't want to give away my location on here, but I don't think the DOP would have a reason to lie to me (but maybe they did anyways). They also said they haven't really hired many pharmacists over the last few years since they take so many residents every year. It could be that they're lowballing everyone, because I was also told that retail chains pay significantly less to new pharmacists here than they do in other towns and cities ($110k for Rite Aid and Walgreens as compared to $120k in most other places).

Are the hospitals in smaller cities really having to incentivize pharmacists to come work at their hospitals? Since there are practically no jobs left (except for maybe a CVS position and a clinical pharmacist position that requires PGY-2), even in the smaller cities, I figured they wouldn't need to provide anyone with any sort of incentives to come work at their hospitals.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Thank God. Maybe he will stop posting about slaving away 'just to be offered 80K upon graduation'

Even if the starting salaries aren't as low as $80k, it's still a bad deal when you consider that it takes 5-6 years of school + residency after undergrad to make a salary that is still <$100k (or just barely $100k), whereas PAs/NPs are making that much or in some cases much more with only ~2 years of post-undergrad schooling.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I think you should give AA another shot since it seems to be what you really want to do, but do you think you'll be ready to handle the lab again? You need to be mentally prepared for that kind of high stress environment or it'll be all for nothing.


90k isn't uncommon for new grads working at a hospital in a lot of southern cities. I started at $44/hr in 2013. Still cleared around 105k with shift differential and OT though.

It just depends on how much I practice for it. I think that was my issue before... I didn't practice the lab routines enough and started making excuses for why I wanted to do something else because I didn't like living in the city the school was in. And now I'm looking at entering a job market for a profession in which the entrants who don't hustle enough to out-compete the bottom 75th percentile of fellow students will be out of a job. Even the risk of failing out of AA school (or general PA school) is more worth taking than risking being out of a job unless I'm willing to move to BFE. That's another thing that gets me; it's not a matter of hustling and being competitive enough to get a pharmacist job in a non-BFE area, because there are no jobs left in those areas. Instead, it's going to take hustling just to get one of those BFE jobs (kind of like forcing everyone who wants the royal family's table scraps to run a 50-mile marathon race, and whoever finishes first get the scraps).

 

[Seriously Serious]

Case Western Reserve University extended their application deadline not once, but twice this cycle for their AA program. One of my friends is applying or looking into it and was telling me he keeps getting emails. Not sure what it exactly means but I'm imagining you don't need to extend your deadline for applications TWICE if it's so competitive and the grass is so much greener..

I believe AA are getting replaced by CRNA's, CRNA's get paid more.

 

[Seriously Serious]

Even if the starting salaries aren't as low as $80k, it's still a bad deal when you consider that it takes 5-6 years of school + residency after undergrad to make a salary that is still <$100k (or just barely $100k), whereas PAs/NPs are making that much or in some cases much more with only ~2 years of post-undergrad schooling.

You are treating these number as if they are finite/static, you are delusional if you believe AA/PA's will never be in the same situation as the PharmD's are heading. You are jumping from one profession to another and before you know it, you will be right back where you started but with higher debt and nothing to show for it. Heck, even MD/DO's will soon have a shortage of residency spots and will begin their saturation. Pick a profession and ride out the rough times, bc the system will eventually work itself out. At least a PharmD offers a diverse array of opportunities (I'm not talking different 'specialties'). You just really need to stop psyching yourself out lol.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You are treating these number as if they are finite/static, you are delusional if you believe AA/PA's will never be in the same situation as the PharmD's are heading. You are jumping from one profession to another and before you know it, you will be right back where you started but with higher debt and nothing to show for it. Heck, even MD/DO's will soon have a shortage of residency spots and will begin their saturation. Pick a profession and ride out the rough times, bc the system will eventually work itself out. At least a PharmD offers a diverse array of opportunities (I'm not talking different 'specialties'). You just really need to stop psyching yourself out lol.

Yes, PA's will eventually reach their own job market saturation, but the point is that theirs is still a number of years off, whereas pharmacy's is now beginning to occur even in areas that are traditionally considered undesirable "fall-back" cities and towns (e.g., rural GA, AL). Also, not only is there still plenty of time for someone to go to PA school, graduate, complete a 1-year residency and work essentially anywhere, but completing that residency actually puts a PA in a position of earning additional money and having more job security, whereas in pharmacy, residencies are simply becoming an entry-level prerequisite for hospital staffing jobs.

 

[steveysmith54]

Yes, PA's will eventually reach their own job market saturation, but the point is that theirs is still a number of years off, whereas pharmacy's is now beginning to occur even in areas that are traditionally considered undesirable "fall-back" cities and towns (e.g., rural GA, AL). Also, not only is there still plenty of time for someone to go to PA school, graduate, complete a 1-year residency and work essentially anywhere, but completing that residency actually puts a PA in a position of earning additional money and having more job security, whereas in pharmacy, residencies are simply becoming an entry-level prerequisite for hospital staffing jobs.

You should learn from your mistakes. You were telling us the same bullcrap that your area will not be saturated in the pharmacy field. What happened? OOOPS...

Unless you actually do something or have something new to report, how about stop sounding like a broken record?

In addition until we have a change in the law, any balance from IBR, REPAYE, etc will be considered taxable income.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You should learn from your mistakes. You were telling us the same bullcrap that your area will not be saturated in the pharmacy field. What happened? OOOPS...

Unless you actually do something or have something new to report, how about stop sounding like a broken record?

If someone posts a response to one of my posts in an attempt to argue or to generally try and refute a point I've made, of course I'm going to respond. And I actually have been discussing something new over the past few days, which is the latest PDI report from Pharmacy Manpower (or whatever they're calling it these days to be more PC) indicating that even more states' job markets have become totally saturated to the point that 2/3 of the country now has more pharmacists than jobs.

Edited to add: I didn't say that my area would never be saturated, just that I (erroneously) thought it would take much longer for my area to become saturated than 6-12 months. Obviously, I was wrong about that. Keep in mind, the anesthesia job market has been saturated for a good 3-4 years now, but there are still jobs in my area in that profession, and they're STILL offering sign-on bonuses for them. My mistake was not recognizing the magnitude of the saturation in pharmacy, as well as the fact that the APhA, ACPE, and AACP are actively working to open as many more schools as they can while flat-out denying that anything remotely resembling a pharmacist oversupply actually exists. Anyone who goes to PA school at this point in time (not waiting 6-8 years) and completes a 1-year residency is practically guaranteed to have a job that they don't have to relocate to BFE to get. Learning from my past mistakes would be going to PA school while the job market is still favorable to PA's and not waiting half a decade or more to make the jump.

 

[Hope1974]

Here, new graduate in FL without residence swimming in this ocean of hopelessness. No pharmacist experience. I have applied to over 300 jobs, retail and hospital, for over two months. I would move next day anywhere in FL. Only have received one email back.

Have a couple of friends from previous class with residences under their belts...JOBLESS! too.

What is bad is that I have applied to other states (which I do not have license for) just to see how it goes. No answers! One recruiter actually sent me an email stating "I am sorry I can't help you, but we have too many pharmacist applying, God bless you"

Unreal market.

I applied to about 300 in 2011 in South Florida when I graduated. A friend I knew that graduated a year after me took a whole year to find something. I started in Navarro now CVS only because the second time I received a call for the job n asked could I speak Spanish, I said "yes".

I since then have about 5 other licenses. I ran into a preceptor from Miami that moved to Brownsville, TX to pay off her loans. I ran into another South Floridian deep in the Arizona desert on a reservation. He's still working in BFE. I ran into 2 Floridians in Owyhee, NV reservation. One stayed 4 years, an older man, and a younger grad just took the full time spot. I went back to retail to be in the city. There's no overtime pay at all and no sick leave pay...last part has been going on for a couple of years now. Turnover in retail is off the chain.

Work is something like modern day slavery, but at least I'm in the city... not sure what good that does because the next day after work I'm exhausted and just resting. The jobs in BFE were the best, it's too bad they're in BFE. Last gig was 1.5 hr lunch n out by 430, though there was absolutely nothing to do. Currently taking classes to leave the profession. Good luck!

 

[PAtoPharm]

I applied to about 300 in 2011 in South Florida when I graduated. A friend I knew that graduated a year after me took a whole year to find something. I started in Navarro now CVS only because the second time I received a call for the job n asked could I speak Spanish, I said "yes".

I since then have about 5 other licenses. I ran into a preceptor from Miami that moved to Brownsville, TX to pay off her loans. I ran into another South Floridian deep in the Arizona desert on a reservation. He's still working in BFE. I ran into 2 Floridians in Owyhee, NV reservation. One stayed 4 years, an older man, and a younger grad just took the full time spot. I went back to retail to be in the city. There's no overtime pay at all and no sick leave pay...last part has been going on for a couple of years now. Turnover in retail is off the chain.

Work is something like modern day slavery, but at least I'm in the city... not sure what good that does because the next day after work I'm exhausted and just resting. The jobs in BFE were the best, it's too bad they're in BFE. Last gig was 1.5 hr lunch n out by 430, though there was absolutely nothing to do. Currently taking classes to leave the profession. Good luck!

What profession are you looking to pursue after pharmacy?

 

[Hope1974]

What profession are you looking to pursue after pharmacy?

Nothing in healthcare.

 

[Modest_anteater]

According to the latest Pharmacy Manpower Project survey results, FL has an ADI of approximately 2.7, which indicates that there are officially more pharmacy school graduates in FL than there are jobs:

PDI

Florida just dropped to 2.25 (2018) making it one of the most saturated and worst states to look for work. This is surprising because I thought all the old people moved there. I would not move to FL looking for work.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

Why is California a 3.9? I thought it would be 3 or lower.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Are you sure your phone number or email is correct on your applications? Or no other super horrible mistakes on your application or resume? 300 applications with no response seems extreme to me, but maybe I'm really out of touch with job markets.

2 years ago - I applied to about 15 (and I had 10+ years experience -8 as a clin spec) - 3 got back to me - 2 gave me an interview - one offered me a job, the other one said they would contact me- never did. I followed up 2 weeks later - nothing.

so 300 without a response seems excessive, but if they are a new grad - it wouldn't completely surprise me.