Flinders versus USyd GMP

[tk010288]

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I got offers from USyd GMP and Flinders. Dilemma. Weeks of Googling ensue. Here's a braindump of the pros and cons. Help!

Flinders is substantially cheaper (~140k US).* Being in SA, it offers a better shot at staying in Australia for an internship. The medical center is adjacent to the medical school, so it's easy to get extra clinical experience. (USyd GMP assigns you to a clinic--which can be over an hour away from the main campus--and you can only attend your assigned clinic.) Flinders' class size is smaller (by about a third), and the faculty seems more responsive. Also, the administrators seem better organized and more student-friendly.

USyd GMP has a better international reputation and more opportunities for research. Sydney is more cosmopolitan than Adelaide. The curriculum is more lecture-based and has, in recent years, placed greater emphasis on basic sciences. Basic science instruction, as far as I've been able to ascertain, is still a deficiency in Flinders' curriculum.

Important goals, in order: (1) I want to be a good clinician; (2) I want to avoid unnecessary misery; (3) I am hoping for a US EM residency.

Any thoughts? Am I missing anything?

Also, does Sydney's better reputation really matter that much? Isn't an IMG an IMG in the eyes of PDs?


*140k is what the difference will be in 8 years given in terms of the present value of the dollar--4 years for med school and 4 years of 8.3% interest accrual during residency (8.3% is the Grad Plus loan rate, if you factor in the extra fees), with an average 1AUD:1USD exchange rate, an annual 5% tuition increase for USyd GMP, and 4kAUD/yr more for living expenses in Sydney.

 

[putney]

congrats on both of your offers!
It seems like Flinder's would help you with your first 2 goals... extra clinical experience=better clinician... Being an hour away from your clinic sounds miserable.. I hate hate hate long commutes on public transport.. On the other hand, I believe you are correct about Sydney teaching basic sciences better. I have heard though, that Flinders students tend to do better on the USMLE... I guess it really depends on your science background and how much extra time you want to put in your first 2 years in order to do well on the USMLE. I take it you are from the US planning on doing USMLE for sure? Personally, I plan on doing a lot of extra studying to make sure I am at the same level as US med students...
I am with you that I think an IMG is an IMG no matter where you went in Australia, but you would have to contact some residency directors and see what they say...

That is a HUGE difference in money... For me it was all about the money, and there isn't anything that would get me to pay an extra 140K. I mean that's like 7 cars. That's like, a lifetime supply of grilled stuffed burritos at Taco Bell.

Keep us posted on what you decide!

 

[rayjay]

That is a HUGE difference in money... For me it was all about the money, and there isn't anything that would get me to pay an extra 140K. I mean that's like 7 cars. That's like, a lifetime supply of grilled stuffed burritos at Taco Bell.

Bahahahahaha! Lol'd at this. I agree with Putney though; the price difference is HUGE and was a huge deciding factor against me taking Sydney. Cost of living in Sydney is more than Adelaide as well (this is hearsay though).

Here is what I got from some big name Aussie docs whom my uncle spoke with at a medical conference recently (I'm a bit pushy about these things 😛 ). I won't give names to respect their privacy but their opinions really helped. I've copied these verbatim from emails so I apologize for formatting.

"Both are good medical schools.
Flinders is more traditional; Queensland and Sydney are a little more progressive.
Then the choice is between a quieter city of churches, gardens and more culture in Adelaide or surf and sun and some larrikinism. [I'm assuming he meant Brisbane?]
Regards"

"The choice is between living in a lovely city like Adelaide which is conservative and quiet and easy to get around and Flinders is a fine University.

However, if your nephew is looking to the future as scientific researcher, Queensland and Sydney are streets ahead in support and funding in biotech and R&D.

It’s a tough call!"

Also about your price thing, Flinders has a capped tuition ($186k AUD for four years) whereas almost all the other schools have that tuition increase due to inflation. It's nice to know exactly how much debt you'll have before you start the program 😀

 

[cosycatus]

I got offers from USyd GMP and Flinders. Dilemma. Weeks of Googling ensue. Here's a braindump of the pros and cons. Help!

Flinders is substantially cheaper (~140k US).* Being in SA, it offers a better shot at staying in Australia for an internship. The medical center is adjacent to the medical school, so it's easy to get extra clinical experience. (USyd GMP assigns you to a clinic--which can be over an hour away from the main campus--and you can only attend your assigned clinic.) Flinders' class size is smaller (by about a third), and the faculty seems more responsive. Also, the administrators seem better organized and more student-friendly.

USyd GMP has a better international reputation and more opportunities for research. Sydney is more cosmopolitan than Adelaide. The curriculum is more lecture-based and has, in recent years, placed greater emphasis on basic sciences. Basic science instruction, as far as I've been able to ascertain, is still a deficiency in Flinders' curriculum.

Important goals, in order: (1) I want to be a good clinician; (2) I want to avoid unnecessary misery; (3) I am hoping for a US EM residency.

Any thoughts? Am I missing anything?

Also, does Sydney's better reputation really matter that much? Isn't an IMG an IMG in the eyes of PDs?


*140k is what the difference will be in 8 years given in terms of the present value of the dollar--4 years for med school and 4 years of 8.3% interest accrual during residency (8.3% is the Grad Plus loan rate, if you factor in the extra fees), with an average 1AUD:1USD exchange rate, an annual 5% tuition increase for USyd GMP, and 4kAUD/yr more for living expenses in Sydney.

ah, the dilemma we faced. For me, cost is the biggest factor. Between a 190K Usyd and a 180K flinders, it will be Usyd for me simply b/c of the brand recognition that Usyd has at home ( where i am from, anything other than the local school = second, third or even forth rate), but i am at flinders for the above reason.

I can't say how good Usyd basic sci curriculum is, but Flinders is just about ensuring that u have enough material to get through australian schools, but barely. The semester is shorter now than 2 years ago b/c the medical school was ordered to align it's timetable with the rest of the school, as a result a couple of PBL cases was taken out. That said, you do have a lot of time to mug for the USMLEs to get a good step 1 and there's some level of support in electives which while not designed specifically to prep u for USMLes , help you in studying for it. Student are also rather active in setting studying groups for USMLEs.

Clinically, FMC is a tertiary level hospital and so should provide more than adequate training for anyone. The smaller cohort size also means that students will not be queuing up to learn how to do procedures. Technically, u can also apply to carry out your year 3 rotations in rural locations ( they call it PRCC) where u are attached to a GP or a small hospital in rural areas ( not really rural, maybe 3-4 hours drive from city). Seniors reported fantastic hands on learning while there b/c you are the only med student around and if u are competent, they let you do a lot of stuff by yourself ( some assisted in C-sections, appendectomy, administer anesthesia, inflate a pneumothrax and putting in C lines became almost second nature. And as a true story, I've a course mate whose boyfriend is an intern from queensland and he can't even do a cannulation b/c during schooling, he never had a chance to try it more than a few times).

 

[cosycatus]

"Both are good medical schools.
Flinders is more traditional; Queensland and Sydney are a little more progressive.
Then the choice is between a quieter city of churches, gardens and more culture in Adelaide or surf and sun and some larrikinism. [I'm assuming he meant Brisbane?]
Regards"

"The choice is between living in a lovely city like Adelaide which is conservative and quiet and easy to get around and Flinders is a fine University.

However, if your nephew is looking to the future as scientific researcher, Queensland and Sydney are streets ahead in support and funding in biotech and R&D.

It’s a tough call!"

and i have to point out to you, you do realize that how auzzies talk? They never really put down anything and will try to draw a silver lining out from every cloud. There is no BAD, there is only good and better, areas you can improve on and so on. There is seldom negativity in their statements, but given the relative hierarchy where they put things, u can get a sense of where things really stand...

 

[rayjay]

Between a 190K Usyd and a 180K flinders, it will be Usyd for me simply b/c of the brand recognition that Usyd has at home ( where i am from, anything other than the local school = second, third or even forth rate), but i am at flinders for the above reason.

As of this year its more like USyd $240k vs Flinders 180k...that was my biggest deciding factor.

and i have to point out to you, you do realize that how auzzies talk?

Meh, I was just using that as supporting information. I had made up my mind on Flinders, I just needed some further justification before I put my deposit down.

 

[Canuck455]

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[rayjay]

I think cosycatus was saying if usyd was 190k, he would have went there instead of Flinders since name recognition matters in Asia. For North Americans, we're all lumped into 1 category called IMG's.

Oh gotcha, that makes sense.