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Plz if you can tell us which books did you find more helpful for the BSCE and NAVle , Thank you , and I wish you good luck in you CPE exam.
Thank you again
Thank you again
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Foreign Veterinary Graduates
Started by rocibell
Hi, I wish you guys read the earlier posts, they have a lot of answers. anyways, here are what I read.
There is a series of books called the national veterinary medical series. These books has been written practically for the NAVLE. The best one that you are going to love is the small animal surgical one. Although the books are dated to 1996 they are still great. So you can cover almost everything except anesthesia.
The things that I read from Merck were about the diagnosis of the infectious diseases, FIV, FeLV, Rabies,,,, like if you get a positive FIV test in a 2 months old kitten , then what? Is he/ she really infected
Also I read more about lameness in large animals and large animal surgery (FL UN videos are great for this part). Oh, and the hematology section from Merck too..
My story with The BCSE was, that I had studied for the NAVLE before the BCSE so it was very easy for me to pass it. I basicly went over all the things that I read before really quickly not too much detailed.
There is a book that you can depend on of the BCSE though it has 80 % of what you need to know, its called Mobys comprehensive review for veterinary technician Amazon it.
Also I went online and found tons of materials that were useful check this site out
http://www.upei.ca/~vetrad/lectures.htm
This will tell you everything about how to read an x-ray .. the one that every one love , thoracic radiology
Good luck
There is a series of books called the national veterinary medical series. These books has been written practically for the NAVLE. The best one that you are going to love is the small animal surgical one. Although the books are dated to 1996 they are still great. So you can cover almost everything except anesthesia.
The things that I read from Merck were about the diagnosis of the infectious diseases, FIV, FeLV, Rabies,,,, like if you get a positive FIV test in a 2 months old kitten , then what? Is he/ she really infected
Also I read more about lameness in large animals and large animal surgery (FL UN videos are great for this part). Oh, and the hematology section from Merck too..
My story with The BCSE was, that I had studied for the NAVLE before the BCSE so it was very easy for me to pass it. I basicly went over all the things that I read before really quickly not too much detailed.
There is a book that you can depend on of the BCSE though it has 80 % of what you need to know, its called Mobys comprehensive review for veterinary technician Amazon it.
Also I went online and found tons of materials that were useful check this site out
http://www.upei.ca/~vetrad/lectures.htm
This will tell you everything about how to read an x-ray .. the one that every one love , thoracic radiology
Good luck
I haven't done spay for long time, I used to do it in 35-40 minutes. I own two horses so I had my little experiance with lamness. but I'm really depending on the rounds I will be doing with the equine vets. I only opened the manual once , My exam is 7 months later so I will take a little break after the Navle ...I'm going to Oklahoma state Un.. I don't know anything about any place...
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Dear DVM JAKISH..
Ohh Maaaaaaaan,Who are you??!!!! you are awesome and so positive,
You are trying to help all people here in which is going make me pride that we have a very wonderful person in this forum can help other person very well.
I just wanted to say thanks and hope you'll pass all your exam and have a briliant future everywhre that you live.
Cheers,
Farzin.
Ohh Maaaaaaaan,Who are you??!!!! you are awesome and so positive,
You are trying to help all people here in which is going make me pride that we have a very wonderful person in this forum can help other person very well.
I just wanted to say thanks and hope you'll pass all your exam and have a briliant future everywhre that you live.
Cheers,
Farzin.
well u r great person ....i will like to see u someday...thanx for replying...well u r goin to ok state uni. for seeing or just getting to know ur exam site..can we do that???????????? how bout cpe material if u can provide me for cpe because mine exam is real close...i have to get material for it.....what r name of ur horses????🙂....thanx byeeee😛
Im speechless! Thank you. Im glad I was helpful.
Oh, Me, just a foreign graduate who is trying not to be "foreign" .
Oh, Me, just a foreign graduate who is trying not to be "foreign" .
I'm going to Ok state uni for the exam only. I wish I can take a tour though..
I think I'm going to stick to the manual. I will study ,one more time, everything and concentrate on things that I will be doing. It's a clinical exam so I think they need to see you in action as much as knowing information. I will see what is it exactly that they want us to do and I will ask the vets that I will be doing round with to make sure I can do them comfortably.
If you haven't gone out with large animal vets. You probably should. I don't think any vet will let you down if you ask.
In the www.AVMA.COM a link
http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/cpe_common_diagnoses.pdf this has what so called" most common diseases" I will concentrate on these diseases, they are still too many , but not as many as all of them.
I have couple of files "word" of great Bovine LAD, RAD, and similar problems …, also goat, sheep ketosis with real cases… they are about 10 pages each but they are great.. I was thinking to just post them in the forum but though every one will hate me because they will take a lot of space. The problem about this forum is that you can't add an attachment.. I will be happy to e-mail them to you if you are interested. I guarantee you read them once and you are set, They are very smooth…
There is an online company I'm sure you have heard of them," VCRC" they sell a CPE training book. I hear it's okay, not sure.. but I say if you read what you have read for the NAVLE and get some training then you don't need any extra stuff.
Redmond and Chewy
I think I'm going to stick to the manual. I will study ,one more time, everything and concentrate on things that I will be doing. It's a clinical exam so I think they need to see you in action as much as knowing information. I will see what is it exactly that they want us to do and I will ask the vets that I will be doing round with to make sure I can do them comfortably.
If you haven't gone out with large animal vets. You probably should. I don't think any vet will let you down if you ask.
In the www.AVMA.COM a link
http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/cpe_common_diagnoses.pdf this has what so called" most common diseases" I will concentrate on these diseases, they are still too many , but not as many as all of them.
I have couple of files "word" of great Bovine LAD, RAD, and similar problems …, also goat, sheep ketosis with real cases… they are about 10 pages each but they are great.. I was thinking to just post them in the forum but though every one will hate me because they will take a lot of space. The problem about this forum is that you can't add an attachment.. I will be happy to e-mail them to you if you are interested. I guarantee you read them once and you are set, They are very smooth…
There is an online company I'm sure you have heard of them," VCRC" they sell a CPE training book. I hear it's okay, not sure.. but I say if you read what you have read for the NAVLE and get some training then you don't need any extra stuff.
Redmond and Chewy
nice to hear from u so quick well..... when is ur exam????.... i have seen the list of cpe common diagnoses...it is long...i have done large animals...bleeding tail vein is not easy...ha ha ha.......well ...vcrc is said to have good stuff but i dont have one....i will like to have used one....what else can i use to test my self...how can i judge me that if i m ready for exam i mean like websites for navle....u can e mail me at [email protected]. my friend needs all this information he is goingto take cpe ..bye
well i have already done my cpe exam and working as a vet ....i attended one year at lsu for this but that training was no good.....anyway i have done cpe in old format.......(7 sections) but it is new changed cpe and i m just helping one of my friends who is going to take it in jan08 in las vegas....so i asked dvm jakish for that....he is really helpful not only me but for all on this site
keep it up jakish!!!😀
keep it up jakish!!!😀
so you have done CPE, can you please tell us about it. I know there is new one, but it's almost the same they just combined two sections into one.
Did you pass the whole thing at once? what should we and shouldn't we do....
Mine is in june 08
Did you pass the whole thing at once? what should we and shouldn't we do....
Mine is in june 08
I JUST HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION, HOW DID YOU FIND THE MOSBY REVIEWS 5 SERIES?, NOW I'M MAINLY READING THE MOSBY BOOKS, BUT AS YOU SAID I WILL BUY THE NATIONAL VETERINARY SERIES, SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT MOSBY REVIEWS? IT S WORTH IT TO SPEND TIME AND FOCUS ON NET OR NO?
THANK YOU AGAIN.
THANK YOU AGAIN.
I have the Mosby's reviews, I have got them as a gift a year and half a go. I think they have been bought from Amazon. they are like new. I only read 1 % of theie questions. I didn't like the way that the questions are asked. I'm going to list them on Amazon or ebay very soon.
I don't think that they have done anything to me. if you thing you really want them I can sell them to you. they are like new . no one single mark on them.
On the other hand, the national veterinary series has good quality questions after every section, also in the end of the book there are 100 questions. they are very good questions. Now this books I will never get red of. they are a keeper.
I don't think that they have done anything to me. if you thing you really want them I can sell them to you. they are like new . no one single mark on them.
On the other hand, the national veterinary series has good quality questions after every section, also in the end of the book there are 100 questions. they are very good questions. Now this books I will never get red of. they are a keeper.
Hey everybody,
ECFVG website just udated some info about Specific Steps of the ECFVG Certification Program. I am not sure which information they updated and because I am not familiarized with the CPE section, I think whoever is interested should take a look at it. (It might be about CPE, I dont know).
According to ECFVG, WE are responsible for checking their website for updates.
Just a tip: To know when they have updated something without having to check everything, you can try to set up your computer with the ECFVG RSS feed, which is a little orange icon that you will find in their website. It will keep you updated about ECFVG new information. To get more info in how does it work and how to set up your computer for it, go to the ECFVG website, find the orange icon and you will figure everything out.
Cheers!
ECFVG website just udated some info about Specific Steps of the ECFVG Certification Program. I am not sure which information they updated and because I am not familiarized with the CPE section, I think whoever is interested should take a look at it. (It might be about CPE, I dont know).
According to ECFVG, WE are responsible for checking their website for updates.
Just a tip: To know when they have updated something without having to check everything, you can try to set up your computer with the ECFVG RSS feed, which is a little orange icon that you will find in their website. It will keep you updated about ECFVG new information. To get more info in how does it work and how to set up your computer for it, go to the ECFVG website, find the orange icon and you will figure everything out.
Cheers!
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hello dvm jakish..well i did my cpe in tuskegee uni. and passede all ..it depends all on ur exam site..some r cool and some strict..they just ask whatz in the manual...just concentrate more on surgery and anasth cause in these we make the fatal flaws.....farm animals and equine is cool everywhere...know thw lameness and the physical exam....for rads go for thrall.....patho...know the necropsy how u doit....small a medicine ..must know the prescription writing from plumbs ......physical exam is same in all cases.....history taking m.imp....know to fill out soaps....... lastly talk to examiners discuss with them rather than acting as a candiddate...they love to discuss and even tell at same spot that u passed their section.... use ur common sense and keep ur eyes open......just know everthing in manual and the subjects related to the topics because they ask things which r not in manual...means they ask from anywhere and u cannot say that it is not covered in manual......rest leave to god ...just do the efforts....u will get results..... 🙂
Thanks, I appreciate your help. One question. Any Idea where I can find info about doing the necropsy the right way?
[/QUOTE]
probably because they euthanize there quite alot so u will have the opportunity to do it over there?!........ and practice autopsy.
necropsy in mammals book is good ...get it on amazon.com.....just do it and learn it it is easy but only stink is bad😡
[/quote]
dvmjakish,
I have the material from the necropsy rotation that I did in my clinical year.
There is a description of necropsy in horses, but all of them are pretty much the same. There is also some interesting things like the steps to perfrom a good necropsy (history, ....), how to describe a particular lesion and preservation of tissue speciments, etc...(I don't know if they would ask such things, maybe jagjit may tell you).
Cheers!
I have the material from the necropsy rotation that I did in my clinical year.
There is a description of necropsy in horses, but all of them are pretty much the same. There is also some interesting things like the steps to perfrom a good necropsy (history, ....), how to describe a particular lesion and preservation of tissue speciments, etc...(I don't know if they would ask such things, maybe jagjit may tell you).
Cheers!
Well, I did some serch online and I found sone PDF files I think they are enough for the CPE.
Here they are for every one....
http://www.army.mil/usapa/med/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/tbmed283.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd1626.pdf
http://www.martindalecenter.com/Vet_8_Subject.html
http://w3.vet.cornell.edu/nst/toc.html
http://www.vetserveng.moag.gov.il/N...305105B5/1885/Veterinarynecropsytechnique.pdf
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vtdl/vtdlhome/VTDLDocuments/mentorship info/VM224LogBook.pdf
Here they are for every one....
http://www.army.mil/usapa/med/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/tbmed283.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd1626.pdf
http://www.martindalecenter.com/Vet_8_Subject.html
http://w3.vet.cornell.edu/nst/toc.html
http://www.vetserveng.moag.gov.il/N...305105B5/1885/Veterinarynecropsytechnique.pdf
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/vtdl/vtdlhome/VTDLDocuments/mentorship info/VM224LogBook.pdf
Just took BCSE yesterday for the first time
mostly questions were simple enough as the name BCSE but It's doesn't easy though!!!!!
For everyone who are going to take this exam, lecture notes are extreamly important. A lot of questions related to clinical year
Quite a lot of x-ray to read, also 5-6 questions about artifact(x-ray and ultrasound)
try to go over basic equine stuff like denal, ageing,lameness some important infectious diseases and perfornance related syndrome.
Concentrate in small animal, make sure you know how to read CBC, blood chemistry, fecal exam, surgery also important.
~30% of Bovine questions
~10% of swine, avian and another spp.
Don't waste your time reading text books for information in detail, the exam is basic thing we've learn and practice in clinical year(for me it has been 3 years since graduated😳 )
If you need more info please email me I don't want our forum to be banded 😱
[email protected]
mostly questions were simple enough as the name BCSE but It's doesn't easy though!!!!!
For everyone who are going to take this exam, lecture notes are extreamly important. A lot of questions related to clinical year
Quite a lot of x-ray to read, also 5-6 questions about artifact(x-ray and ultrasound)
try to go over basic equine stuff like denal, ageing,lameness some important infectious diseases and perfornance related syndrome.
Concentrate in small animal, make sure you know how to read CBC, blood chemistry, fecal exam, surgery also important.
~30% of Bovine questions
~10% of swine, avian and another spp.
Don't waste your time reading text books for information in detail, the exam is basic thing we've learn and practice in clinical year(for me it has been 3 years since graduated😳 )
If you need more info please email me I don't want our forum to be banded 😱
[email protected]
Hi guys. I am taking the CPE test in january and would like some information about SOAP veterinary Notes. Subjective Objective Acessment Plan.
Thanks
Thanks
I have the University of Florida NAVLE preparatory course offered for foreign veterinarians. They are 29 VHS tapes. They are a good start for the BCSE offered now and it gives you an idea about the veterinary medicine practiced in North America. I originally graduated from Cairo University (Egypt) where the major impact is food animal medicine. I'm putting these tapes for sale $350 (I originally got them for $500 on 2004). I'm located in Tucson, AZ and will ship them from there. My email is [email protected]
Youhanna Sawires
Youhanna Sawires
u can get these videos for free on site of uni. of florida...i have downloaded all videos ON CD...may be u got them earlier moreover they r same like the VCRC COURSE SO TRY TO DONATE THEM IT WILL BE MORE USEFUL🙂 MOREOVER IN N AMERICA MORE EMPHASIS IS ON DOGS AND CATS NOT FOOD ANIMALS ( THEY R JUST SLAUGHTERED).......MEAVET CAN HELP ALL THOSE APPEARING IN BCSE OR DVM JAKISH FOR NAVLE.....GREAT GUYS
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hey just google uni.of florida and go the online catalogue of florida library ...u can choose from there whatever u want and download it..🙂
Hey I am from florida, I am in the second step to get the vet, but we may can chat,
hello guys
i m staring to prepar for navle,i garatuated from spain,i m here in states,i bought CVRC,i studing 3-4h.
My question: i m working full time job ,diferent field,has nothing to do with veterinary sciences,and also i dont have ennough practice in clinic.,is i keep with this rythm i m able to have good prep for nalve spring 2008.
Plz ,i need response ,i m really concerned about it.
I really apreciate any answer.
i m staring to prepar for navle,i garatuated from spain,i m here in states,i bought CVRC,i studing 3-4h.
My question: i m working full time job ,diferent field,has nothing to do with veterinary sciences,and also i dont have ennough practice in clinic.,is i keep with this rythm i m able to have good prep for nalve spring 2008.
Plz ,i need response ,i m really concerned about it.
I really apreciate any answer.
hello guys
I m staring to prepar for navle,i garatuated from spain,i m here in states,i bought CVRC,i studing 3-4h daily
My question: i m working full time job ,diferent field,has nothing to do with veterinary sciences,and also i dont have ennough practice in clinic.,is i keep with this rythm i m able to have good prep for nalve spring 2008????
Plz ,i need response ,i m really concerned about it.
I really apreciate any answers.
I m staring to prepar for navle,i garatuated from spain,i m here in states,i bought CVRC,i studing 3-4h daily
My question: i m working full time job ,diferent field,has nothing to do with veterinary sciences,and also i dont have ennough practice in clinic.,is i keep with this rythm i m able to have good prep for nalve spring 2008????
Plz ,i need response ,i m really concerned about it.
I really apreciate any answers.
Hello my name is bader,i m graduated from spain,universidad de cordoba,
Me gustaria tener alguna idea de como te ha preparado el navle,porq estoy en ello ahora,usted has estudiado en espana a lo mejor me das algunos consejos
Agradezco cualquiera opinion.
Muchas gracias
Me gustaria tener alguna idea de como te ha preparado el navle,porq estoy en ello ahora,usted has estudiado en espana a lo mejor me das algunos consejos
Agradezco cualquiera opinion.
Muchas gracias
Hey puyol , how are you?
first try not to worry too much. unfortunately i can't not help you with your question cause i'm not there yet, one day i'll get to that exam too......
but what i do want to say, is be patient it may take some days but the people here in this forum do answer. so hopefully you will get some answers soon
good luck
first try not to worry too much. unfortunately i can't not help you with your question cause i'm not there yet, one day i'll get to that exam too......
but what i do want to say, is be patient it may take some days but the people here in this forum do answer. so hopefully you will get some answers soon
good luck
?uestion session.........
WiTh TuT.....................
Ok im a first year student in egypt and i want to know for the ecfvg/ pave can i prepare for it with a under grad degree, as in the bachelors degree,or do i have to finish grad school, also i want to know do i have to finish a clinical year at a american univ.? these questions are really important to me because if i have to finish in a univ. than that is gonna be tooooooooooooooo expensive giving the exchange rate for a dollar to each egyptian pound, so if anyone out there knows the answers please give them to me and please dont give me those websites because ive been there a million times and it doesnt help.
With aNiMaL LoVe,
pEaCe tO ThE WoRlD...........😎
TutUt
WiTh TuT.....................
Ok im a first year student in egypt and i want to know for the ecfvg/ pave can i prepare for it with a under grad degree, as in the bachelors degree,or do i have to finish grad school, also i want to know do i have to finish a clinical year at a american univ.? these questions are really important to me because if i have to finish in a univ. than that is gonna be tooooooooooooooo expensive giving the exchange rate for a dollar to each egyptian pound, so if anyone out there knows the answers please give them to me and please dont give me those websites because ive been there a million times and it doesnt help.
With aNiMaL LoVe,
pEaCe tO ThE WoRlD...........😎
TutUt
KingTut,
To register in the ECFVG certification program, an applicant has to be graduated of, or final-year student at, an AVMA-listed veterinary college.
(That is the step #1, proof of graduation).
Applicants may proceed with the other steps of the program while verification of graduation is being obtained. (This info is at ECFVG website http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/ecfvg_pp_steps.asp)
I am not sure if they allow first year students to register, but you can always call or e-mail them.
And no, you don't have to finish clinical year at a US university. This was the old step 4 that now was replaced by the CPE.
I am not familiar with PAVE.
Hope this help you.
To register in the ECFVG certification program, an applicant has to be graduated of, or final-year student at, an AVMA-listed veterinary college.
(That is the step #1, proof of graduation).
Applicants may proceed with the other steps of the program while verification of graduation is being obtained. (This info is at ECFVG website http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/ecfvg_pp_steps.asp)
I am not sure if they allow first year students to register, but you can always call or e-mail them.
And no, you don't have to finish clinical year at a US university. This was the old step 4 that now was replaced by the CPE.
I am not familiar with PAVE.
Hope this help you.
i think u r too excited to be a vet in usa
...or just a early bird 😳...first try to finish the work in ur hand....then think bout here...remeber a bird in hand is better than two in bush........by the time u r going to come here they r gonna change the system a lot so then u will get worried bout the new system😡....so concentrate in ur school studies🙄
...or just a early bird 😳...first try to finish the work in ur hand....then think bout here...remeber a bird in hand is better than two in bush........by the time u r going to come here they r gonna change the system a lot so then u will get worried bout the new system😡....so concentrate in ur school studies🙄
yoga
u r the spirit of studentdoc site (section ECFVG) ....u have not cleared any exam yet... but still from ur messages it seems u r a 65 year old vet guiding fresh BUDDING graduate vets of 25 year age...most of the SPIRIT BOOSTING(I DONT KNOW IF THEY BOOST OR NOT🙄) are from YOGA THE CAT .....WELL may be u have more experience in"HOW TO BOOST MORALE OF A STRUGGLING ECFVG CANDIDATE".......we all look forward for more energy and hope filled posts from u dedicated to all(AND U TOO) struggling ecfvg candidates
u r the spirit of studentdoc site (section ECFVG) ....u have not cleared any exam yet... but still from ur messages it seems u r a 65 year old vet guiding fresh BUDDING graduate vets of 25 year age...most of the SPIRIT BOOSTING(I DONT KNOW IF THEY BOOST OR NOT🙄) are from YOGA THE CAT .....WELL may be u have more experience in"HOW TO BOOST MORALE OF A STRUGGLING ECFVG CANDIDATE".......we all look forward for more energy and hope filled posts from u dedicated to all(AND U TOO) struggling ecfvg candidates Cool cardiology (EVERYTHING) is on www.vetgo.com
Cool radiology (clinical cases) is on www.veterinaryradiology.net
Cool radiology (clinical cases) is on www.veterinaryradiology.net
Hello Jagjit,
from your short answers I assume you are very bussy. Still I would like to ask you (and others would probably joint me🙂 if you can give us a little bit more details if you can about your CPE.
I am going to Tuskegee in May 2008.
Thank you very much in advance.
Jitka.
from your short answers I assume you are very bussy. Still I would like to ask you (and others would probably joint me🙂 if you can give us a little bit more details if you can about your CPE.
I am going to Tuskegee in May 2008.
Thank you very much in advance.
Jitka.
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jagjit my dear this was a nice thing to say, thanks.yoga
i think i just know the feeling of being there.
I, after a long time of cheking this whole thing and reading and reading again and again in the ECFVG site, and sending them e-mails with questions (by the way it's good they do answer the questions) and after thinking if i should do it or not so many times (cause after all it's money and time and you need to work some how and visa and so on) i took the chance and finally i send all the documants and i'm happy.
i went to a toefl test with out studying and it was not to bad but not enough (21 in listening and 23 in speaking) so i take english now for the toefl and hopefully this 8 weeks will help me improve.
it's all time consuming and money too and you need to think and use your brain right, it's great to have other people who been there and can help you with the unknown.
but jagjit...... i'm not that old ..... hehehehe. at list i look young
so keep the good work
all the best
u r very lucky to get tuskegee ...i went there i cleared all sections....that is all black school..so they r not racist.....so just do whatever in manual..they dont care bout minor things only the major flaws r counted....be careful in surgery...rest i tell u now that all ur sections r cleared for sure...u have lot of time...that os sufficient for prepration.....yes i m busy in my work...got lot of cats and dogs waiting for me
well if u think of money in the process of getting licensed here then u r leading to nowhere....i know persons who cleared navle the 5 th time...and some of them have loans of over $50,000... then u have to pay for cpe($6-7,000)so to get something u have to give something.....but it is really foolish to sit in an exam without studying(like u did in toefl) and then thinking oh god!!! i could have studied more and i could have saved money 😡...everything is written clear on the avma website about the steps u have to do....that means u have to do and it is the same rules for every candidate no exceptions....i believe more in doing then talking...and all the ecfvg candidates r wise enough to think about their money and time...... so instead of thinking bout money try to get best out of ur money..... and if u think u r wasting time(like u said time consuming) and money then let me tell u that in usa everything happens step by step u cant jump from toefl to cpe ..u have to do bcse,navle and then cpe.....if it is time consuming then plz just quit it and enjoy life in someway that is not time consuming and is cheap
wow..... that was a little rough but o.k i guess you didn't understood what i was saying, there was no complains here just making a point. i know things go step by step and i don't have a problem with that or any expectation so that is clear.
then about time consuming again it was not a complain, but as you said earlier we are not getting any younger or may be i'm just a little a bit old, so i think about other things like family and kids - but forget about it all.
in the end all i did is writing my point of view sharing part of my situation and that's it, belive me i know what i'm getting in to, and if i wanted the easy way i would take your advise,so thank you very much for that great advise, and for the support and of course for encouraging me to it and not give up.
thank you once again
