Fresh grad: got a job in big pharma, plus working towards another degree, should i bother getting licensed as a pharmacist at all??

[harvoni_rituxan]

Recently got an industry job offer at a big pharma (starts with a G), paying low six-figure salary, as a super fresh PharmD grad. I am very excited and happy for sure, especially during a national crisis with ever increasing ~20% unemployment rate (could very well hit 30% if lock-down continues for another month or two, urghhhhhhh). I will be working towards another masters degree (cs/data science related) at a top school in my spare time, which is very likely fully reimbursed by my employer (still need to double check with HR). So I am debating right now if I should bother getting licensed as a pharmacist at all at this point.

I never liked retail, but if I do get a weekend shift or something, I wouldn't mind taking a shift or two purely for the paycheck, but I doubt I would have too much time though in the next 2 years. In terms of the cs/data science degree, I can practically graduate by the end of 2021 if everything falls into place, or mid-2022 at latest. By then, I could either stay where I am at and ask for a promotion & raise, or internally transfer to the digital personalized health department, or jump ship to health tech departments of other pharma companies like Pfizer, or joint ventures & subsidiaries, like Verily Life Sciences or other promising health tech startups, or maybe leave pharma altogether to join FAANG or fintech firms as a general data scientist/data engineer/swe, and so on and so forth. I think there is endless opportunities I can try and will likely have the leverage to do so by then, with 2+ years of relevant experience and the PharmD/MS.

Any input from seasoned veterans? Do other industrial pharmacists still maintain their licenses and take prn retail or hospital shifts when opportunities present? Or should I even bother getting licensed at all based on my unique situation? If I don't get licensed in immediate future, I can always come back later and take naplex right?

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[zelman]

Passing the board exams will never be easier than right after graduation.

 

[Dred Pirate]

We have had some industry people work prn - honestly, they all sucked, they were too far removed from patient care type work to be of much value other than product checking (something that could be accomplished by a bar code scanner) but requires a license. My point being, if you want the work, start now, you can always stop, but getting into it may be difficult.

Is it Genetech? if so, shoot me an PM

If Glaxo - I know many people who have been laid off by them over the years- it is part of the job, but they usually landed on their feet fairly well.

PS - congrats on the industry job, hard to come by as a new grad

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

We have had some industry people work prn - honestly, they all sucked, they were too far removed from patient care type work to be of much value other than product checking (something that could be accomplished by a bar code scanner) but requires a license. My point being, if you want the work, start now, you can always stop, but getting into it may be difficult.

Is it Genetech? if so, shoot me an PM

If Glaxo - I know many people who have been laid off by them over the years- it is part of the job, but they usually landed on their feet fairly well.

PS - congrats on the industry job, hard to come by as a new grad

Thanks, and I really appreciate that.
For the "G", I think you missed Gilead lol.

This is actually not the only industry job offer I received so far. I got another offer from a medium sized pharma for a drug product development scientist position in the biologics drug product development group, but I decided to turn it down after I got this offer cuz I would rather be analyzing clinical data on a daily basis so that the experience can fit well with my degree and future health tech pursuit in the long run.

Regarding the prn shifts, I honestly doubt I would be so lucky enough to land any hospital work, considering it is ultra-competitive, and I basically have to compete with so many residency trained candidates, so I think I might be stuck with retail forever.......

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Passing the board exams will never be easier than right after graduation.

I see, but from a time-optimization perspective, If I get licensed this year, I don't know if I would have much time left to take any shift (for the purpose of getting another extra paycheck) until maybe 2 years later after I graduate again. Forward looking, would it be worth it for the time investment to study naplex and spend more money on licensing and renewal fees every year just for weekend retail shifts, which may or may not exist in my area at least 2 years later? This is actually my main concern.

 

[Saiyo]

You're gonna be making 6 figures a year, are you that strapped for cash? Just get licensed, you can make up the licensing fees for the cycle in one or two prn shifts. If your career is progressing so that you never need the license you can consider dropping it after a few years.

 

[BMBiology]

Working in the industrial is not so glamorous. Low paying for pharmacy standards, job instability, constant pressure.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Working in the industrial is not so glamorous. Low paying for pharmacy standards, job instability, constant pressure.

thanks for your input~
I interned there prior, so I know what I am getting myself into. I don't know the specific working ethics of other departments or other companies, but my employer is known for a laid-back & innovative culture. As long as someone can get the job done, 3 hour lunch break and a little afternoon jogging is not a rare thing to see.
low-paying? maybe, definitely not on par with swe pay at FAANG yet, I will start soon at a bit over 100k. but after 2-3 years, it's not unusual to get a pay raise to 150-200k range either by a promotion or switching to the digitial personalized health department, especially after I graduate again, this time with a top cs masters on my resume and 2 yr relevant working experience. If I don't get it, I will be ready to join FAANG in no time, just like 70-80% of the class of 2018/2019 and probably 2020 in my program have done. Then, I will ask for 200k+

 

[Jbrl]

Get licensed only if you want the edification. Otherwise don’t - there are no benefits to licensure with the path you’ve chosen, only costs.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

You're gonna be making 6 figures a year, are you that strapped for cash? Just get licensed, you can make up the licensing fees for the cycle in one or two prn shifts. If your career is progressing so that you never need the license you can consider dropping it after a few years.

Thanks for the reply,
I am not that strapped for cash, but as you might have probably guessed, I live in an expensive area. Putting away the remainder of my loan asap and saving aggressively for down payment (250-350k) for housing in a desirable area would become the my next life priority. If housing price crashes, great, if not, better aim higher to score high.

I haven't talked to DMs yet, so I have no clue the actual pay rate for a fresh grad like me is. My major constraint is that I can only take weekend shifts based my schedule, so shift availability and pay rate are both concerning to me.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Get licensed only if you want the edification. Otherwise don’t - there are no benefits to licensure with the path you’ve chosen, only costs.

I talked with several RPhs in the company last summer, and one of them mentioned she still takes prn shifts at target, so I took note there and just wondering if that's something I should attempt lol.

 

[Jbrl]

I talked with several RPhs in the company last summer, and one of them mentioned she still takes prn shifts at target, so I took note there and just wondering if that's something I should attempt lol.

I would look at it from the perspective of temporal and monetary opportunity cost instead of what other folks have done. Effectively - what do you want to do with your 3-4h per week? Personally I’d sooner focus that time on being excellent at my full time job, building CS capabilities/side projects or decompressing from what might be a busy week with school/work. Those will likely pay higher dividends in the long run

 

[mentos]

I would get licensed, just get it over with. It's not hard - just study RXprep for a couple weeks. It will be a good thing to have as backup if SHTF and you have no other options. You never know where life takes you.

 

[Argentium]

I talked with several RPhs in the company last summer, and one of them mentioned she still takes prn shifts at target, so I took note there and just wondering if that's something I should attempt lol.

I got a masters along the way and work in industry and never got licensed - don't regret it at all. Most of my industry friends got a license and they haven't worked a day of retail since maybe 1-2 years after school, so now its the annual/bi-annual scramble to find the CE and pay the fees. The only exception are the few that truly love the patient interaction, etc. Some people say that its a nice fallback option, but I feel like my skills are better suited in other industries at this point than retail/hospital/etc.

Your time is much better spent being better at your job or just enjoying life. Any extra cash you make is taxed at whatever marginal bracket you're at (probably high, esp. in CA) so the take-home isn't even that great for the effort put in. Surprised that you like the GILD culture - the one pharma/biotech i've consistently heard bad things about across all departments. Maybe DO is changing things up.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Congratulations on receiving what sounds like an awesome job offer (and one that probably holds the potential for significant future upward mobility).

Similar to what mentos stated above, I would think that the only benefit to obtaining pharmacist licensure would be to have a last-resort income source in the event that all other avenues of pharmacist employment except for retail go bust, especially if you find yourself in the scenario of not having an emergency fund saved up.

Also, it's worth considering the fact that even retail pharmacist positions are hard to come by in big cities, so it may be worth jumping on a PRN opportunity that presents itself to you, just in case.

Another thing to consider - are there any other non-trad jobs in industry that you might stand a chance of getting promoted to if you're able to state having retail pharmacist experience on your resume?

Random question, but just out of curiosity, how did you come to qualify for your job as a new grad? Did you teach yourself coding in your free time?

Good luck, and know that there are thousands of fellow new grads out there who would consider it a blessing to find themselves in your predicament.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

I got a masters along the way and work in industry and never got licensed - don't regret it at all. Most of my industry friends got a license and they haven't worked a day of retail since maybe 1-2 years after school, so now its the annual/bi-annual scramble to find the CE and pay the fees. The only exception are the few that truly love the patient interaction, etc. Some people say that its a nice fallback option, but I feel like my skills are better suited in other industries at this point than retail/hospital/etc.

Your time is much better spent being better at your job or just enjoying life. Any extra cash you make is taxed at whatever marginal bracket you're at (probably high, esp. in CA) so the take-home isn't even that great for the effort put in. Surprised that you like the GILD culture - the one pharma/biotech i've consistently heard bad things about across all departments. Maybe DO is changing things up.

good to know from the veteran. thanks for letting me now.
I guess I will delay licensing for a year and see where it goes from there. Maybe I will never need it, or maybe retail pharmacy hits rock bottom and rebounds. A lot of things can happen in a year, so I think I better wait a bit then decide. I can always come back and get licensed if I ever need so, we will see.

A side note: I brought up Gilead cuz Dred Pirate named the other two, but surprisingly never mentioned the one hitting news headlines on a daily basis for coronavirus lol. I will actually work for the other G, you know, the one next to the beautiful sandy beach.

 

[lord999]

I got a masters along the way and work in industry and never got licensed - don't regret it at all. Most of my industry friends got a license and they haven't worked a day of retail since maybe 1-2 years after school, so now its the annual/bi-annual scramble to find the CE and pay the fees. The only exception are the few that truly love the patient interaction, etc. Some people say that its a nice fallback option, but I feel like my skills are better suited in other industries at this point than retail/hospital/etc.

Your time is much better spent being better at your job or just enjoying life. Any extra cash you make is taxed at whatever marginal bracket you're at (probably high, esp. in CA) so the take-home isn't even that great for the effort put in. Surprised that you like the GILD culture - the one pharma/biotech i've consistently heard bad things about across all departments. Maybe DO is changing things up.

To the OP, I've heard enough stories from my parents' generation to know that to give up a license is something that you do live to regret. It's actually not necessary for locum work, but it's one of those situational credentials to have handy when there are gut checks. FWIW, the NAPLEX is a joke, you should be able to pass with limited study. The CPJE is not that easy, but it is still passable. What's 120 hours of leisure over a career.

I'm curious @Argentium, does your father still retain his or when did he give it up when he went industry? There have been periods where I would be surprised if it were not handy in NJ as the "need" for one had fluctuated over the thirty years. Some years, not at all necessary, some years, absolutely to get a job. I'm somewhat surprised at the CE scramble, most of the quasi-mandatory conferences we have to do to (DIA, BIO, ASAP, etc.) basically load you up with enough CE that it's practically impossible not to get 30 hours a year, much less two.

As for me, the license (and subsequent qualification) has not been necessary for the vast majority of my career, but I will never work 1500 hours as a unpaid slave ever again, and if that privilege costs me $3000 over a career (the averaged out price for one of my licenses over a 30 year period), then that's worth it just for the frame on the wall. I don't pay my own license or certification maintenance anymore, so it is a moot point, but having a dusty license has been a factor in closing certain contracts or shutting people up who try to pull the "I'm licensed and you're not" card in regulatory affairs.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Congratulations on receiving what sounds like an awesome job offer (and one that probably holds the potential for significant future upward mobility).

Similar to what mentos stated above, I would think that the only benefit to obtaining pharmacist licensure would be to have a last-resort income source in the event that all other avenues of pharmacist employment except for retail go bust, especially if you find yourself in the scenario of not having an emergency fund saved up.

Also, it's worth considering the fact that even retail pharmacist positions are hard to come by in big cities, so it may be worth jumping on a PRN opportunity that presents itself to you, just in case.

Another thing to consider - are there any other non-trad jobs in industry that you might stand a chance of getting promoted to if you're able to state having retail pharmacist experience on your resume?

Random question, but just out of curiosity, how did you come to qualify for your job as a new grad? Did you teach yourself coding in your free time?

Good luck, and know that there are thousands of fellow new grads out there who would consider it a blessing to find themselves in your predicament.

I was approached for a direct-hire clinical scientist position for Acerta pharma, but damn, they interviewed someone earlier and made an offer just a few days after I applied. Now part of AstraZeneca Group, they offer competitive salary in the range of 100k-150k starting for clinical scientists. So if I remain slightly patient-oriented with that retail exposure, maybe I can do that in near future? or maybe I can switch there from here without anything else needed, I honestly don't know, but I am happy with where I am at, at least this job will give me all the necessary experience highly similar and non-inferior to data science internships elsewhere, including FAANG, with a perfect mesh of clinical, scientific computing, and advanced analytics, and most importantly, to solve the always interesting problem: how to give the right drug to the right patient at the right dose and regimen.

On the job description, they wanted someone who is comfortable with programming, preferably from a engineering, math or stats background, 0-2 yr exp if MS in stats. They listed PharmD there, but more or less as a placeholder I assume. But I guess they saw my continuing education for cs on my resume, so it probably gave me the real competitive edge there. Honestly, I will be significantly underpaid if I don't get a big pay raise by the end of 2021. No one wants to be the sore loser in a highly ranked cs program taking the lowest offer at graduation ceremony while watching other people with less experience and training than you end up making 30-50k more straight out of school. I would be a laughing stock from fellow students if I don't go for higher pay, either internally or jumping ship.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

To the OP, I've heard enough stories from my parents' generation to know that to give up a license is something that you do live to regret. It's actually not necessary for locum work, but it's one of those situational credentials to have handy when there are gut checks. FWIW, the NAPLEX is a joke, you should be able to pass with limited study. The CPJE is not that easy, but it is still passable. What's 120 hours of leisure over a career.

I'm curious @Argentium, does your father still retain his or when did he give it up when he went industry? There have been periods where I would be surprised if it were not handy in NJ as the "need" for one had fluctuated over the thirty years. Some years, not at all necessary, some years, absolutely to get a job. I'm somewhat surprised at the CE scramble, most of the quasi-mandatory conferences we have to do to (DIA, BIO, ASAP, etc.) basically load you up with enough CE that it's practically impossible not to get 30 hours a year, much less two.

As for me, the license (and subsequent qualification) has not been necessary for the vast majority of my career, but I will never work 1500 hours as a unpaid slave ever again, and if that privilege costs me $3000 over a career (the averaged out price for one of my licenses over a 30 year period), then that's worth it just for the frame on the wall. I don't pay my own license or certification maintenance anymore, so it is a moot point, but having a dusty license has been a factor in closing certain contracts or shutting people up who try to pull the "I'm licensed and you're not" card in regulatory affairs.

Thanks for the example of shutting people up with a license in regulatory affairs. I never had any real regulatory exp, but I always had this impression of regulatory affairs having many people without actual relevant experience, yet they just somehow got hired and learned everything on the job, or no?

 

[Hedgehog32]

I was approached for a direct-hire clinical scientist position for Acerta pharma, but damn, they interviewed someone earlier and made an offer just a few days after I applied. Now part of AstraZeneca Group, they offer competitive salary in the range of 100k-150k starting for clinical scientists. So if I remain slightly patient-oriented with that retail exposure, maybe I can do that in near future? or maybe I can switch there from here without anything else needed, I honestly don't know, but I am happy with where I am at, at least this job will give me all the necessary experience highly similar and non-inferior to data science internships elsewhere, including FAANG, with a perfect mesh of clinical, scientific computing, and advanced analytics, and most importantly, to solve the always interesting problem: how to give the right drug to the right patient at the right dose and regimen.

On the job description, they wanted someone who is comfortable with programming, preferably from a engineering, math or stats background, 0-2 yr exp if MS in stats. They listed PharmD there, but more or less as a placeholder I assume. But I guess they saw my continuing education for cs on my resume, so it probably gave me the real competitive edge there. Honestly, I will be significantly underpaid if I don't get a big pay raise by the end of 2021. No one wants to be the sore loser in a highly ranked cs program taking the lowest offer at graduation ceremony while watching other people with less experience and training than you end up making 30-50k more straight out of school. I would be a laughing stock from fellow students if I don't go for higher pay, either internally or jumping ship.

Interesting to hear about the path you took to landing the job. So I'm guessing that someone who holds both a Pharm.D. and an MS in Software Development would qualify for the same kinds of positions? Or would it need to be a degree with coursework that emphasizes more math and engineering?

Also, I noticed you said you learned CS via pursuing continuing education. With that being the case, would a CS bootcamp grad who also has a Pharm.D. qualify for those positions as well?

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Interesting to hear about the path you took to landing the job. So I'm guessing that someone who holds both a Pharm.D. and an MS in Software Development would qualify for the same kinds of positions? Or would it need to be a degree with coursework that emphasizes more math and engineering?

Also, I noticed you said you learned CS via pursuing continuing education. With that being the case, would a CS bootcamp grad who also has a Pharm.D. qualify for those positions as well?

Believe it or not, my employer is an absolute degree-xhore from my understanding. They just can't stop loving those big brand name school graduates. My now direct manager got her phd in chemical engineering from mit, and the executive and r&d directors and vps are a whole bunch of well-known figures in their fields, so many md/phds and former professors. I honestly felt like it is a big university campus than a company. I heard stories of someone who did eight years of postdoc at rockefeller prior to getting a scientist position there, just like tenure track. I put down my planned cs masters with a tentative finishing date on my resume, and mentioned it multiple times during the google hangout interview, with almost every single interviewer. You know, I knew what they are looking for, so just keep emphasizing it right? My cs program is top 10 in the nation, with a staggering placement rate at top n companies, and >700 alumni at apple alone. I felt I had to somehow implicitly instill this idea that if they don't hire me now, they will lose me forever to FAANG or their rivals. It seems the strategy worked lol.

 

[grumpyRph]

ok. flex.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Believe it or not, my employer is an absolute degree-xhore from my understanding. They just can't stop loving those big brand name school graduates. My now direct manager got her phd in chemical engineering from mit, and the executive and r&d directors and vps are a whole bunch of well-known figures in their fields, so many md/phds and former professors. I honestly felt like it is a big university campus than a company. I heard stories of someone who did eight years of postdoc at rockefeller prior to getting a scientist position there, just like tenure track. I put down my planned cs masters with a tentative finishing date on my resume, and mentioned it multiple times during the google hangout interview, with almost every single interviewer. You know, I knew what they are looking for, so just keep emphasizing it right? My cs program is top 10 in the nation, with a staggering placement rate at top n companies, and >700 alumni at apple alone. I felt I had to somehow implicitly instill this idea that if they don't hire me now, they will lose me forever to FAANG or their rivals. It seems the strategy worked lol.

Well, based on how much of a premium they place on degree credentials from high-ranking universities, it sounds like I probably wouldn't stand a chance at being considered for a position like that.

Just curious, are you familiar with the cybersecurity job market? Not sure how familiar you are with it, but what's your opinion of pursuing a cybersecurity MS vs a software dev MS post-pharmacy school?

 

[wazoodog]

I started in retail and keep my license active, but haven't "used" it since the first few months of PRN hours after joining the pharma industry (about 15 years ago). That said, I'm glad I have it. Although it would be hard for me to even land a job in retail nowadays, for several years it provided peace of mind that I had a backup option. Even now, it's nice to be qualified for some back-up option whether it be even PRN or part-time something. Granted it probably won't be easy given how long I've been out of it - but at least it's another avenue I can pursue. After all, I went through all the work to become a pharmacist. Who knows? Maybe one day I can retire a couple years early and just pick up a couple hours a month at a pharmacy in need (or a friend's independent).

There are other fringe benefits too even if you don't really "need" it for industry. Throughout my career, I think the majority of hiring managers wouldn't consider licensing a deal-breaker. However, at least a few including some in my current department do pay attention to that. If you don't have it, they wonder why - "was this person educated overseas? Ok no, in the US...I see they didn't bother to get a license since they didn't need it." At that point, for some people it will be something they remember about you. For context, there's quite a few pharmacists in the industry and the majority are licensed...especially if they were educated in the US. It's not a deal-breaker, but there's some intrinsic value in the minds of those who chose to keep and maintain their license. And you can bet they all include that piece of information on their CV. You never know what you'll want 10 or 15 years from now. Maybe you'll have an opportunity to join the FDA - if you have your license you can also apply in parallel to the USPHS and become a commissioned officer.

That said, I know one person who didn't bother to get license. She went straight to a fellowship program after graduation and did one of those MPH degree combination fellowships in HEOR. She intended to get her license but just kept putting it off until now it's just been too long. I wouldn't go far as to say she regrets it, but I think if she could go back in time she would have just done it.

I know it's a PITA to set aside time to study for it, for something you may not even use. But in at least some ways, it adds to your options. It won't ever subtract. Never mind if those options are never realized - and maybe it's like insurance where it's best if you never need to use it, but relieved when you do. You might say you can come back to it later, but it'll be way harder with each passing year. The best way I can put it is - if you skip the license you'll probably never regret it beyond a wistful thought. After all, you'll never what it feels like to have the license. If you do choose to get your license, I'm sure you'll find it worth keeping active even if you never use it. Plus, it's pretty easy to keep it active in pharma since they send you to conferences and usually pay for your renewal. It's also an interesting way to keep in touch and bond with other licensed pharmacists/classmates throughout the industry - people form informal groups with each other to share CE sources and events. It's a networking opportunity in itself.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

ah *@#%!!! Not another CS circle jerk thread!

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

I started in retail and keep my license active, but haven't "used" it since the first few months of PRN hours after joining the pharma industry (about 15 years ago). That said, I'm glad I have it. Although it would be hard for me to even land a job in retail nowadays, for several years it provided peace of mind that I had a backup option. Even now, it's nice to be qualified for some back-up option whether it be even PRN or part-time something. Granted it probably won't be easy given how long I've been out of it - but at least it's another avenue I can pursue. After all, I went through all the work to become a pharmacist. Who knows? Maybe one day I can retire a couple years early and just pick up a couple hours a month at a pharmacy in need (or a friend's independent).

There are other fringe benefits too even if you don't really "need" it for industry. Throughout my career, I think the majority of hiring managers wouldn't consider licensing a deal-breaker. However, at least a few including some in my current department do pay attention to that. If you don't have it, they wonder why - "was this person educated overseas? Ok no, in the US...I see they didn't bother to get a license since they didn't need it." At that point, for some people it will be something they remember about you. For context, there's quite a few pharmacists in the industry and the majority are licensed...especially if they were educated in the US. It's not a deal-breaker, but there's some intrinsic value in the minds of those who chose to keep and maintain their license. And you can bet they all include that piece of information on their CV. You never know what you'll want 10 or 15 years from now. Maybe you'll have an opportunity to join the FDA - if you have your license you can also apply in parallel to the USPHS and become a commissioned officer.

That said, I know one person who didn't bother to get license. She went straight to a fellowship program after graduation and did one of those MPH degree combination fellowships in HEOR. She intended to get her license but just kept putting it off until now it's just been too long. I wouldn't go far as to say she regrets it, but I think if she could go back in time she would have just done it.

I know it's a PITA to set aside time to study for it, for something you may not even use. But in at least some ways, it adds to your options. It won't ever subtract. Never mind if those options are never realized - and maybe it's like insurance where it's best if you never need to use it, but relieved when you do. You might say you can come back to it later, but it'll be way harder with each passing year. The best way I can put it is - if you skip the license you'll probably never regret it beyond a wistful thought. After all, you'll never what it feels like to have the license. If you do choose to get your license, I'm sure you'll find it worth keeping active even if you never use it. Plus, it's pretty easy to keep it active in pharma since they send you to conferences and usually pay for your renewal. It's also an interesting way to keep in touch and bond with other licensed pharmacists/classmates throughout the industry - people form informal groups with each other to share CE sources and events. It's a networking opportunity in itself.

thanks so much for the helpful reply!
My work will involve a bit of clinical knowledge, but I think 75% if not more will be data mining, analytics, visualization and reporting. I think your points made a strong argument for keeping it available just in case.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Well, based on how much of a premium they place on degree credentials from high-ranking universities, it sounds like I probably wouldn't stand a chance at being considered for a position like that.

Just curious, are you familiar with the cybersecurity job market? Not sure how familiar you are with it, but what's your opinion of pursuing a cybersecurity MS vs a software dev MS post-pharmacy school?

I have no idea about cybersecurity jobs. I know they tend to pay less, so I never bothered looking into it. People usually look for opportunities in high yielding areas that pay more, like ML, and either they get told by other veterans or they learn it the hard way by themselves, it never pays to not go into fields like game programming.

 

[Hedgehog32]

ah *@#%!!! Not another CS circle jerk thread!

What do you expect when CS and other tech industry jobs have the most optimistic job market outlooks and highest starting salaries relative to time/effort/money invested?

CS and pharmacy are literally at opposite ends of the job market/job outlook spectrum right now, so these kinds of comparisons are going to be inevitable for as long as these two professions hold their places as goalposts at each extreme, so to speak.

Heck, I got a PM on reddit from someone who graduated pharmacy school in 2018, couldn't find a job with anyone except CVS, and decided after just two miserable months on the job to attend a CS bootcamp program. He started off at a lower salary than what he had started off at with CVS but was earning at least that much by the end of his first year in the CS job. So obviously I'm not the only person who has the character flaw of being "too entitled" to work BFE chain retail (although to be fair, at least he did try to give it a chance).

 

[Hedgehog32]

I have no idea about cybersecurity jobs. I know they tend to pay less, so I never bothered looking into it. People usually look for opportunities in high yielding areas that pay more, like ML, and either they get told by other veterans or they learn it the hard way by themselves, it never pays to not go into fields like game programming.

I actually never thought about game programming. I guess at this point I just want to choose whatever path has the highest probability of leading to a decent-paying job that doesn't involve standing for 12-14 hrs straight and being berated by the general public.

What sparked my interest in cybersecurity is the fact that it has the most optimistic job market projections of any other tech profession on the BLS website at 31%, which is even better than the outlook stats for software developers (I believe they're at 21 or 22%). I just don't want to make the same mistake twice (I.e., choosing to pursue a profession that it's literally impossible to get a job in unless you move to BFE to work for the worst employers in the profession), which is why I'm inclined to pursue the career that has the most optimistic job market outlook.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

ah *@#%!!! Not another CS circle jerk thread!

Well, nobody asked you to read & comment if you don't like it~
I am just asking for opinion regarding what I should do with licensing and maybe adding a data point for job hunt as a new grad. If you like your current working environment, good for you, but there is no need to trash other people's pursuit.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

My manager relayed back to me today that the global head & principal scientist, aka the department head, was very impressed by what I am capable of doing, and wanted to know how she can help me with long-term career growth within her department and allow me to contribute to the department-wide AI initiative in near future.

For those who were interested, the interviewing panel comprised of six-people within the department: 2 scientists, 1 sr. scientist, 1 sr. researcher, 1 analyst and then the global head & principal scientist. 30 min/person for a whole 4 hours interview on google meet. EVERYBODY asked my programming experience, the ML models I used in my projects, and my commitment to the cs masters degree. One scientist asked why I would like to come back to pharma at all cuz he believed I am also heavily recruited elsewhere, particularly for those big IT well-knowns, and I said cuz I felt here at G will give me the advantage to integrate everything together and move this department forward. I was interviewed by the global head at very last. After spending 30 min with her going over what I have done in the past 4 years and discussing how I solved interesting real-world problems with neural network, she said "I really admire your energy, and I am looking forward to welcoming you back at G".

I won't say anything bad about pharmacy, cuz everybody there also seemed to value my clinical training (almost all of them came from pure scientific research background), which puts me in a very unique competitive position when combined with my knowledge in cs/data analytics. The global head mentioned during the interview that she always wanted to advocate and expand the horizon of what her department can do in the era of AI, yet she always had trouble getting the right people, and she wants to make sure future openings and hirings can maybe address this issue. So, for those who are interested in working at the frontier of merging oncology & non-oncology clinical trial data with AI, maybe my experience can serve as an useful data point and future reference.

 

[Argentium]

To the OP, I've heard enough stories from my parents' generation to know that to give up a license is something that you do live to regret. It's actually not necessary for locum work, but it's one of those situational credentials to have handy when there are gut checks. FWIW, the NAPLEX is a joke, you should be able to pass with limited study. The CPJE is not that easy, but it is still passable. What's 120 hours of leisure over a career.

I'm curious @Argentium, does your father still retain his or when did he give it up when he went industry? There have been periods where I would be surprised if it were not handy in NJ as the "need" for one had fluctuated over the thirty years. Some years, not at all necessary, some years, absolutely to get a job. I'm somewhat surprised at the CE scramble, most of the quasi-mandatory conferences we have to do to (DIA, BIO, ASAP, etc.) basically load you up with enough CE that it's practically impossible not to get 30 hours a year, much less two.

As for me, the license (and subsequent qualification) has not been necessary for the vast majority of my career, but I will never work 1500 hours as a unpaid slave ever again, and if that privilege costs me $3000 over a career (the averaged out price for one of my licenses over a 30 year period), then that's worth it just for the frame on the wall. I don't pay my own license or certification maintenance anymore, so it is a moot point, but having a dusty license has been a factor in closing certain contracts or shutting people up who try to pull the "I'm licensed and you're not" card in regulatory affairs.

Time will tell - I could certainly see a license offering "peace of mind" to some, but haven't felt the need personally.

My parents' generation, with a working history from the 90s to present, had a pretty stable ride in the life sciences industry - a few layoffs in the late 2000's with the mega-merger/acquisition restructurings, but the few that were let go during that time were able to find jobs within weeks/months and any gap was covered by severance. Being in a hot area in the R&D organization helped as well.

Honestly the PharmD itself rarely comes up in conversation in my line of work (commercial, non-field based) so I don't see where I could even begin to leverage the RPh. I like to think that the quality of your work and how you communicate it speaks more to your value than a degree or credential, but obviously every organization, function, and culture is different. Anyways, retail is so transactional these days, that I struggle to think of the added value beyond a few functional areas (field-based - nice to have a HCP/HCP interactions; some medical roles; etc.).

 

[TateThePharmacist]

Well, nobody asked you to read & comment if you don't like it~
I am just asking for opinion regarding what I should do with licensing and maybe adding a data point for job hunt as a new grad. If you like your current working environment, good for you, but there is no need to trash other people's pursuit.

You think you're real slick u/Hedgehog32 ? Everyone knows this is just you on two different accounts. Now are you ever gonna answer my question? Are you a CS recruiter? Or what's your angle on pushing CS so much??

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

What do you expect when CS and other tech industry jobs have the most optimistic job market outlooks and highest starting salaries relative to time/effort/money invested?

CS and pharmacy are literally at opposite ends of the job market/job outlook spectrum right now, so these kinds of comparisons are going to be inevitable for as long as these two professions hold their places as goalposts at each extreme, so to speak.

Heck, I got a PM on reddit from someone who graduated pharmacy school in 2018, couldn't find a job with anyone except CVS, and decided after just two miserable months on the job to attend a CS bootcamp program. He started off at a lower salary than what he had started off at with CVS but was earning at least that much by the end of his first year in the CS job. So obviously I'm not the only person who has the character flaw of being "too entitled" to work BFE chain retail (although to be fair, at least he did try to give it a chance).

when it hurts so bad, it means something is not right. So DO something to fix it, and NEVER wait for the badly broken stuff to come together by itself. It just won't.
why having to relocate to BFE for a retail job that doesn't pay $10-15 premium? it's just so wrong. do something about it, whether it's cs or plumbing.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

You think you're real slick u/Hedgehog32 ? Everyone knows this is just you on two different accounts. Now are you ever gonna answer my question? Are you a CS recruiter? Or what's your angle on pushing CS so much??

Recruiting for whom? Did I mention any program name? Did I say go to XXX for whatever salary guaranteed? Jeez. You must be on something to have this kind of weird snowflake victim mentality.

I have no intention pushing cs at all, but it is a matter of FACT that I got this coveted 6-figure low-stress industry job MANY of my pharmacy classmates can only dream of right out of school, for which I will start on-boarding soon and work remotely amid sky-high unemployment rate of 20%, mostly because of my cs/data analytics work.

If you hate reality, well, I never invited you to come here and vent your ill-founded anger. I came to ask seasoned industrial veterans for opinion regarding licensing. If you have constructive feedback, then say it. If not, then stop being so silly and comment on something you hate so much.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

Holy cow, so defensive! Seeing how you jump straight to insults, I'm assuming you've been banned from this forum before?
I'm actually happy to hear about a new grad getting a great job straight out of school (I did too); it's actually quite refreshing from the normal doom and gloom of this forum. What I'm sick of is a person or persons who is nonstop harassing this PHARMACY forum with COMPUTER SCIENCE questions/ pushing CS school/ boot camps.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

Holy cow, so defensive! Seeing how you jump straight to insults, I'm assuming you've been banned from this forum before?
I'm actually happy to hear about a new grad getting a great job straight out of school (I did too); it's actually quite refreshing from the normal doom and gloom of this forum. What I'm sick of is a person or persons who is nonstop harassing this PHARMACY forum with COMPUTER SCIENCE questions/ pushing CS school/ boot camps.

nobody pushes cs! it was you who made the ill-founded connection. i didn't even bring it up! it wasn't until someone asked if direct-patient exposure, for which the license is for, can help with future opportunities, then i just barely went over the nature of my job, in like one sentence?
who is harassing here? did i ask you to come? i am a pharmacist by training with a pharmd on my resume and qualified to take naplex at any time, so why can't i post here, the PHARMACY forum, asking about PHARMACIST licensure? what is wrong with you really? i don't get it.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

You seem to have all the answers. What are you here asking for?

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk

did i ask what i wanna do in next 2-3 years? can't you read the last paragraph of my original post?

 

[Hedgehog32]

You think you're real slick u/Hedgehog32 ? Everyone knows this is just you on two different accounts. Now are you ever gonna answer my question? Are you a CS recruiter? Or what's your angle on pushing CS so much??

I thought I already addressed your accusation of me being a CS recruiter, but I'll do it again in case I didn't. No, I am not a CS recruiter and I am not harvoni_rituxan. Why would a CS recruiter (or alternatively, someone who claims to already have a CS background + an industry job offer in hand, as harvoni_rituxan claims to have) post questions like mine that revolve around the topic of how someone without a CS background can most quickly transition into a CS career?

Also, it wouldn't make sense for a CS recruiter to create a thread on potential strategies for obtaining a hospital staff pharmacist position without first completing a residency.

You asked why I'm pushing CS so hard on here. My intention was never to specifically promote CS as a career alternative to pharmacy; rather, CS naturally presented itself as perhaps the most obvious choice for someone who has just finished 4 years of expensive grad school and is understandably looking for the most obvious career alternative to pursue in a "bang for the buck" sense (I.e., amount of time and money it takes to complete training/education, job market outlook, job locations, etc.).

To give an example of what I mean when I say that CS seems to be one of the most logical alternatives to pursue, I'll point out that I'm also considering applying to PA school. However, even though the job market outlook for PAs still looks solid (in spite of the explosion in the number of PA schools in recent years), the process of becoming a PA as compared to a CS professional would be significantly more expensive and most likely take longer to complete.

So basically, the CS fixation arises from the fact that no other profession seems to offer the same combination of relatively brief and inexpensive career prep routes and solid job market. PAs still have a strong job market, but the education takes longer to complete and is more expensive. If anyone has any suggestions on othee career alternatives besides CS that offer abbreviated prep pathways and a strong job market for new grads, I'd be happy to research and consider them as well.

 

[BC_89]

oh good grief....

reel it back in folks.

 

[Argentium]

No doubt CS has great opportunities, but IDK, I think PharmD is not a bad path if you are smart about it. Below is a bit industry-focused but i'm mentioning it because of the nature of this thread - there are other options out there that I'm not touching upon ...

A lot of the kids I talk to for informational interviews are super sharp and consider one of the following routes below:

• fellowship program --> programs have all gotten bigger lately but # of applicants also up YoY; acceptable rates are still 15 - 30%ish .. not bad
• direct into industry as contractor --> definitely doable if you live in tristate area / SF / Boston / etc. and make some sort of networking effort
• direct into industry as full time --> harder; probably need to have done some significant internship work or prior experience
• consulting / vendor / agency / finance --> so many people don't know about these opportunities but if you're persistent, passionate, and put in the extra effort, definitely doable as well. PharmD can actually be unique in these settings

If you go any of these routes, outcomes are pretty solid across the board - work-life balance, salary, job satisfaction, work flexibility, etc. Of those people I've talked to in the last few years, I can't think of many that didn't eventually land something that they wanted and are not happy with their eventual career direction -- maybe selection bias but just throwing some positivity on to this board for once!

 

[Hedgehog32]

No doubt CS has great opportunities, but IDK, I think PharmD is not a bad path if you are smart about it. Below is a bit industry-focused but i'm mentioning it because of the nature of this thread - there are other options out there that I'm not touching upon ...

A lot of the kids I talk to for informational interviews are super sharp and consider one of the following routes below:

• fellowship program --> programs have all gotten bigger lately but # of applicants also up YoY; acceptable rates are still 15 - 30%ish .. not bad
• direct into industry as contractor --> definitely doable if you live in tristate area / SF / Boston / etc. and make some sort of networking effort
• direct into industry as full time --> harder; probably need to have done some significant internship work or prior experience
• consulting / vendor / agency / finance --> so many people don't know about these opportunities but if you're persistent, passionate, and put in the extra effort, definitely doable as well. PharmD can actually be unique in these settings

If you go any of these routes, outcomes are pretty solid across the board - work-life balance, salary, job satisfaction, work flexibility, etc. Of those people I've talked to in the last few years, I can't think of many that didn't eventually land something that they wanted and are not happy with their eventual career direction -- maybe selection bias but just throwing some positivity on to this board for once!

Thanks for taking the time to break down the various types of industry opportunities for pharmacists. Just curious - what kinds of contracting opportunities would a new grad qualify for? I've been told in the past that medical affairs and medical communications are the two areas that new graduates typically have the most luck breaking into. Would you agree with this?

Also, would someone already need to live in one of the regions/cities you listed, or could they have a shot at getting hired if they expressed a willingness to relocate?

 

[wazoodog]

Honestly the PharmD itself rarely comes up in conversation in my line of work (commercial, non-field based) so I don't see where I could even begin to leverage the RPh. I like to think that the quality of your work and how you communicate it speaks more to your value than a degree or credential, but obviously every organization, function, and culture is different. Anyways, retail is so transactional these days, that I struggle to think of the added value beyond a few functional areas (field-based - nice to have a HCP/HCP interactions; some medical roles; etc.).

I agree - being an RPh doesn't come up much in conversation. The times when I've seen it matter are in Medical Communications/Information and Drug Safety or a few areas in Development. The department I'm in now is one of the few places that seems to take note of this detail. Senior management sometimes uses it as bragging point - saying that their department has licensed HCPs providing medical info, or licensed HCPs using medical judgement in the course of their work on safety reports, or licensed HCPs visiting a site to get more information from the investigator on particular subject (in this case if a MD is available it's usually preferred). It's not required - but it's a potential bragging point for someone higher up when trying to show a regulatory inspector that adequately qualified checks are in place or justifying a certain type of headcount. If all they have are life scientists, that'll be their bragging point. If they have HCPs, they'll say they have HCPs. If they have licensed HCPs, then it's a step up (ambiguous as that step is). People can (and do) fake academic credentials or employment history. It's considerably more difficult to fake state professional licensure. Licensure serves as a validated professional qualification and an extra piece of identification (you can use it when switching to REAL ID).

That said, you'll likely never miss it if you don't get it. At the same time, if you get it you'll be glad you did. My perspective is, you've already completed 26 miles of the marathon - what's an extra 0.2 miles. Once it's over and done with, you won't even remember the study time and the exam fee. We actually added a fresh PharmD last year. He didn't have to get a license but did anyway. He uses it to pick up a few PRN hours on occasion as vacation money. Who knows what will be around in 20 years? Maybe there'll be some easy weekend money available like verifying mail order from the comfort of your home for 5 hours once a month. Or maybe there will be war with a draft or pandemic where RPHs are in need - if you have a license you'll have an additional pathway to serve. IMO, at this point it's such a small price to pay to keep your options open. Now if someone were to ask whether it's worth it to pay for years of pharmacy school and then get licensed - I would say that's a different story. But you've already paid your dues and done your time.

 

[Argentium]

Thanks for taking the time to break down the various types of industry opportunities for pharmacists. Just curious - what kinds of contracting opportunities would a new grad qualify for? I've been told in the past that medical affairs and medical communications are the two areas that new graduates typically have the most luck breaking into. Would you agree with this?

Also, would someone already need to live in one of the regions/cities you listed, or could they have a shot at getting hired if they expressed a willingness to relocate?

I would agree that medical affairs type roles are the easiest: medical communications, medical information, etc. The PharmD is most applicable here and there is credibility around what a PharmD can bring to the table given its a well traveled path and there are so many PharmD's in leadership positions.

You don't need to live there, but it certainly makes things easier. Sometimes they need to hire someone fast (e.g. contract roles) and don't want to wait for you to pack up your stuff, move, get settled in, and then start your job. Other times, they can afford to take their time - completely depends.

 

[KARM12]

Good for you, OP. Happy you got a job you want. I would get licensed and decide from there if you want to work registry somewhere...at least you have the option. You will be most prepared to take the test out of school. You can always let the license lapse down the line.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Get licensed. You have no idea what the future will hold. It would be far, far harder to try to get your license later, after not practicing as a pharmacist. Get it now, it's not that expensive and your future self may thank you.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

So OP, are you too poor, too lazy, or just too dumb to take 2 easy tests after spending your last 4 years in pharmacy school?

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

So OP, are you too poor, too lazy, or just too dumb to take 2 easy tests after spending your last 4 years in pharmacy school?

Too poor & too lazy i guess lol.

I agree the tests are very easy, but in today's economic climate, I doubt anyone would say spending money on nonessential stuff sounds like a good idea. It is easy on my part to just say, f* it, let me get this out of the way once and for all, but I am seriously debating the ROI of doing so. I have talked to several alumni in the region, and it seems like the local pharmacist job market is saturated to eyeballs. Yeah, it is THAT bad. I won't do a hospital residency (I just won't, even if they pay me 6 figure salary for one year), so the only real benefit left of getting licensed is taking per diem retail shifts, which can be very hard to come by. One of the alumni I reached out told me he once received 300+ applications for a job, while others have said their hours got cut and scared of getting furloughed if not let go. It is a very frustrating thing to think about.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

I would agree that medical affairs type roles are the easiest: medical communications, medical information, etc. The PharmD is most applicable here and there is credibility around what a PharmD can bring to the table given its a well traveled path and there are so many PharmD's in leadership positions.

You don't need to live there, but it certainly makes things easier. Sometimes they need to hire someone fast (e.g. contract roles) and don't want to wait for you to pack up your stuff, move, get settled in, and then start your job. Other times, they can afford to take their time - completely depends.

I agree with the typical role part, but Idk, most job opportunities on the west coast seem to be R&D focused. I mean, if I search by keywords on linkedin, "XXX scientist" can show up a lot more frequently than "medical affairs", "drug safety" or "pharmacovigilance".

 

[wazoodog]

I agree with the typical role part, but Idk, most job opportunities on the west coast seem to be R&D focused. I mean, if I search by keywords on linkedin, "XXX scientist" can show up a lot more frequently than "medical affairs", "drug safety" or "pharmacovigilance".

FWIW, drug safety / pharmacovigilance is considered a development function and have members that are considered scientists. Some companies will post them under the term "safety scientist". Epidemiologists are also sometimes a part of drug safety departments. Medical Affairs or Medical Communications is usually tied to the Commercial side rather than development side, but you can also find positions called "Medical Communications Scientist". There are a fair amount of positions for both Medical Affairs and PV in the west coast, but sometimes it takes a little playing around with search terms because the titles won't be obvious. For example, sometimes the title could be as vague as "Project Manager" but the description will show that it's within drug safety.

There's no real standardization of job titles across the industry. I think I once heard from a recruiter that salary is the more telling indicator of a person's experience rather than job title.