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Realistically all this does is convert most aoa accredited residencies to acgme accredited (unless they opt to be one of the special osteopathic focused residencies that is accommodated under this deal)..so those previous aoa residencies become just a part of the larger acgme pile...you'll still have to take the comlex, but hopefully this will increase acceptance of those scores for entrance to acgme residencies (without having to take the usmle also)....but the news release claims that 79% of acgme residencies accept comlex scores already...so not a huge change, but good for efficiency and combating anti-DO bias.
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bionerd89 said:
I am so happy and excited about this. After reading how stubborn the AOA was I was pretty skeptical about it actually happening. A least now AOA residencies have to be up to par with ACGME residencies.
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Good news: At least now AOA residencies have to be up to par with ACGME residencies.

Bad news: At least now AOA residencies have to be up to par with ACGME residencies.

What happens to the residents at the AOA programs that will inevitably lose accreditation?
 
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Mehd School said:
I kind of lump IMG and FMG's together because I was in too much of a hurry to make the distinction. But you're right.
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As much as everyone on SDN hates on foreign grads, considering ~25% of the physician pool in the US is composed of IMGs/FMG's i think promoting their entrance into primary care residencies that MD/DO students historically don't want is the right way to go to alleviate the projected shortfall.
 
Hemorrage said:
As much as everyone on SDN hates on foreign grads, considering ~25% of the physician pool in the US is composed of IMGs/FMG's i think promoting their entrance into primary care residencies that MD/DO students historically don't want is the right way to go to alleviate the projected shortfall.
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It's ~25% because going to Carib(etc) schools was a realistic and somewhat safe option 15+ years ago. These people are in the prime of their careers. 20 years from now the concentration of FMG/IMG will be much lower than it is presently.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Well there goes my chance of getting into a DO school with a 26
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Why is everyone thinking this is going to affect competition for DO schools? It's not. In theory, this is a huge change with ACGME accreditation, but in practice it changes nothing. It doesn't affect how a DO is licensed or how he practices at all...

If there was a single accreditation system for schools, then you might see more people applying.
 
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Mehd School said:
Good news: At least now AOA residencies have to be up to par with ACGME residencies.

Bad news: At least now AOA residencies have to be up to par with ACGME residencies.

What happens to the residents at the AOA programs that will inevitably lose accreditation?
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I rather have less AOA residencies if it means eliminating ones that can't train competent physicians
 
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embracepeace said:
HOLY COW. THIS IS FANTASTIC NEWS! Quick question, there was something about sub-specialties out of reach for DOs because they weren't part of an ACGME program. Will this mean that ALL fellowships will be available to DOs (or at least in theory be available) since residencies are going to fall under the purview of ACGME?
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yes, but biases will still exist for a while so don't think everything will change like a lightswitch being flipped
 
I am not sure whether this is good news or not... DO student will be competing with students all over the world!
 
Mehd School said:
It's ~25% because going to Carib(etc) schools was a realistic and somewhat safe option 15+ years ago. These people are in the prime of their careers. 20 years from now the concentration of FMG/IMG will be much lower than it is presently.
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That makes sense.. i guess with the expansion of US schools, the percentage will decrease drastically.

TreadLightly said:
Why is everyone thinking this is going to affect competition for DO schools? It's not. In theory, this is a huge change with ACGME accreditation, but in practice it changes nothing. It doesn't affect how a DO is licensed or how he practices at all...

If there was a single accreditation system for schools, then you might see more people applying.
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I'll be the first one to say that if MD and DO are ever going to reach equivalence, similarity in academic standards needs to be achieved. IMO, people shouldn't be getting into medical school with scores that predict failure on the USMLE (<27)
 
Mehd School said:
As someone who may be interested in something competitive in 2018 ... I'm a bit nervous. Of course this is for the greater good and there will be better patient care in the long run.

The real winners here? FMG's. Dudes just got access to 3000+ residency spots, 900+ that didn't fill this year. DO internships just got competitive.
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Alternatively view it this way: The world just became completely level. There is no "DO" bias. But don't jump to conclusions and call me idealistic. Please view it this way.

Everything counts in an application. Just like in med school, a similar candidate from Harvard and Rolling River Community College will be viewed VERY differently. Not a little differently.... very. Hell, even a similar candidate from a small no-name liberal arts college and some county catch basin public college would be looked at very differently. Now apply it to residency. You are looking at people and *where* they come from matters a lot, so school matters a lot. By making all residencies equally qualified you make a de facto precendent that the training is equivalent between the two (not that each residency is equally educational, only that every single person can pass the same minimum threshold). This means that *quite* quickly DO school affiliation stops mattering. It doesn't change that nearly every DO school will fall below nearly every MD school in the US when you evaluate their value on an application, but it does firmly cement the caribbean ones below the DO ones when you do that.

Leveling the playing field means you earn what you earn. Does that mean people will lose out on some stuff? sure. But someone like myself, who likes the challenge, I like to know that in the "big picture" this does TONS for the credibility of DOs within medical education and I don't think having a level playing field is a terrible thing. It was unfairly good to us for a long time. Going to "fair" is never a bad thing unless youre being selfish (which youre allowed to do)
 
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sylvanthus said:
Anyone have a clue how this effects Resolution 42? Can I now completely blow that off?
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From the FAQ:

Will those already training in ACGME accredited programs at the time the single accreditation system goes into effect be granted AOA-approved residency status?
Resolution 42 is the current mechanism used by four states that require a first year of AOA residency training for licensure in their state. The AOA has a process to provide recognition of DOs who have completed a first year of training in an ACGME program for acceptance of their PGY1 year as AOA approved to satisfy the requirements of an OGME1 year. Resolution 42 will remain available for the foreseeable future for DOs who are currently completing or have already completed ACGME training. Unless the four states change their requirements for licensure, the AOA will reevaluate the situation after the single accreditation system is implemented and determine if Resolution 42 will still be needed. It is likely that Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma and Pennsylvania will continue to require a first year of AOA training for licensure in their state for any DO who completed an ACGME program prior to the start of the single accreditation system.
 
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Hemorrage said:
That makes sense.. i guess with the expansion of US schools, the percentage will decrease drastically.



I'll be the first one to say that if MD and DO are ever going to reach equivalence, similarity in academic standards needs to be achieved. IMO, people shouldn't be getting into medical school with scores that predict failure on the USMLE (<27)
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Oh boy! Now we have to eliminate Howard U, Meharry, Morehouse, Marshall, and the M.D. schools in PR... Before you write stuff like that, say it loudly to see how it sounds.
 
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guylewis said:
I'm not sure how to feel about this. feel good on many aspects though a bit worried on others. like how MDs will now be able to apply to AOA spots that were once only refuge for DOs. though the wording "There will be prerequisite competencies and a recommended program of training for MD graduates who apply for entry into osteopathic-focused programs." is slightly vague but if states that MDs have to have OMM knowledge and be tested beforehand, that would make me feel a lot better. this could be a great thing for many reasons though
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I don't understand this. It's like saying "I want some of your apple pie but don't want to give up any of my chocolate cake for it."

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 
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DO applications could increase if people interpret this change to mean that now you can go to a DO school and not face bias for residencies...which isn't necessarily the case...the bias will continue until osteopathic admission standards match that of MD programs...and that may or may not happen
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Oh boy! Now we have to eliminate Howard U, Meharry, Morehouse, Marshall, and the M.D. schools in PR... Before you write stuff like that, say it loudly to see if how it sounds.
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It was meant to be loud. I think the majority of us that have made it into medical school based off academic merit can agree that a certain level of academic diligence should be expected from future doctors. There are plenty of strong applicants with doctor compatible personalities that don't garner acceptances simply due to statistics. At one of my interviews, my interviewer told me about 60% of a given student's medical education is funded by external sources- why are schools taking such risks on applicants that clearly don't make the cut? It seems in this day and age, the concept of social egalitarianism and professional expectations foolishly are intermixed.

PS: I'm not saying i expect 3.5+/30+, instead pick cutoffs that have been proven to correlate with boards pass rate
 
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chizledfrmstone said:

I don't understand this. It's like saying "I want some of your apple pie but don't want to give up any of my chocolate cake for it."

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
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no, i just want to join a residency where I can be proficient at the specialty I selected and that I can be trained in OMM as well. i don't like that an MD can join this same residency with no understanding of OMM or any desire to learn/use it and that I have to compete with him/her for that spot. though as was pointed out earlier, biases will still exist at the formerly AOA residencies for DOs, so I got that going for me...which is nice
 
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DocEspana said:
Alternatively view it this way: The world just became completely level. There is no "DO" bias. But don't jump to conclusions and call me idealistic. Please view it this way.

Everything counts in an application. Just like in med school, a similar candidate from Harvard and Rolling River Community College will be viewed VERY differently. Not a little differently.... very. Hell, even a similar candidate from a small no-name liberal arts college and some county catch basin public college would be looked at very differently. Now apply it to residency. You are looking at people and *where* they come from matters a lot, so school matters a lot. By making all residencies equally qualified you make a de facto precendent that the training is equivalent between the two (not that each residency is equally educational, only that every single person can pass the same minimum threshold). This means that *quite* quickly DO school affiliation stops mattering. It doesn't change that nearly every DO school will fall below nearly every MD school in the US when you evaluate their value on an application, but it does firmly cement the caribbean ones below the DO ones when you do that.

Leveling the playing field means you earn what you earn. Does that mean people will lose out on some stuff? sure. But someone like myself, who likes the challenge, I like to know that in the "big picture" this does TONS for the credibility of DOs within medical education and I don't think having a level playing field is a terrible thing. It was unfairly good to us for a long time. Going to "fair" is never a bad thing unless youre being selfish (which youre allowed to do)
Click to expand...

Yeah but none of that does anything about biased program directors. An MD with a 235 vs a DO with a 240? Intelligence doesn't always come with sense for the PD and the MD might always have the advantage for no good reason.
 
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Steney01 said:
DO applications could increase if people interpret this change to mean that now you can go to a DO school and not face bias for residencies...which isn't necessarily the case...the bias will continue until osteopathic admission standards match that of MD programs...and that may or may not happen
Click to expand...

The admissions standards are pretty much the same. It's the stats that matriculants/competitive applicants have that are a little lower for DO schools. That's really just a product of supply and demand. Every medical school has to turn down tons of qualified applicants every year, so they just go for the ones with the highest number as a way of choosing which one to accept. Most people have no idea what a DO is, even pre-meds, so the MD schools have a much larger pool to choose from and thus, higher average matriculant stats.

It's my guess today's news will result in higher averages at DO schools beginning with the next app cycle. That doesn't mean the standards have changed.
 
Steney01 said:
DO applications could increase if people interpret this change to mean that now you can go to a DO school and not face bias for residencies...which isn't necessarily the case...the bias will continue until osteopathic admission standards match that of MD programs...and that may or may not happen
Click to expand...

DO apps probably won't change at all tbh. It'll increase the same way as it dir as projected.
Most premeds don't have a clue about SDN and what is happening. They simply know what their advisors say.
 
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TreadLightly said:
Yeah but none of that does anything about biased program directors. An MD with a 235 vs a DO with a 240? Intelligence doesn't always come with sense for the PD and the MD might always have the advantage for no good reason.
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Id take the MD (assuming its US) every time because
1) five points is nothing.
2) I just told you that where you went matters
3) EVERY SINGLE US MD school is going to be superior to EVERY SINGLE DO school on the metric of #2.
4) But it *will* break the caribbeans-are-mds-so-i-preference-them phenomenon as DOs will quickly (3ish years?) mentally equilibrate when the biggest anti-DO complaint is broken down... that our post-graduate training is inferior*

*= dont believe me? Ask around in the academic setting. That is the biggest knock. Not that the pre-med qualifications are inferior, but that the biased people have worked with DO attendings and feel that their RESIDENCY training was inferior. You prove that the residencies nowadays are equivalent and anyone who has logical reservations drops them.
 
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Get rid of the COMLEX and just add (or not) an "OMM" portion to the USMLE and ill be happy. DOs will still have problems with quality 3rd/4th year rotations for medical students, and devote a significant amount to time to OMM. BUT id imagine it would be pretty hard to get rid of the COMLEX, lots of money involved with that test.
 
Hemorrage said:
PS: I'm not saying i expect 3.5+/30+, instead pick cutoffs that have been proven to correlate with boards pass rate
Click to expand...

Where's the "27+ correlates with board performance" coming from? From what I've read, mcat scores don't correlate very well...meta-analysis shows that weighted effects vary between .1 and .6 between the two (with 1 being a perfect correlation) Most studies actually separate out the correlation between each section of the mcat individually and the biological science section seems to correlate best with board scores...but still not all that consistently...if you're interested, here's the relevant paper..
http://internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf
 
DocEspana said:
Id take the MD (assuming its US) every time because
1) five points is nothing.
2) I just told you that where you went matters
3) EVERY SINGLE US MD school is going to be superior to EVERY SINGLE DO school on the metric of #2.
4) But it *will* break the caribbeans-are-mds-so-i-preference-them phenomenon as DOs will quickly (3ish years?) mentally equilibrate when the biggest anti-DO complaint is broken down... that our post-graduate training is inferior*

*= dont believe me? Ask around in the academic setting. That is the biggest knock. Not that the pre-med qualifications are inferior, but that the biased people have worked with DO attendings and feel that their RESIDENCY training was inferior. You prove that the residencies nowadays are equivalent and anyone who has logical reservations drops them.
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bull crap
 
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I do think this is the beginning of the end for the AOA and DO distinction in general. Sooner or later it'll be "why have the COMLEX when all residencies are ACGME?" Then, "why have DO medical schools when residencies are all ACGME?" The beginning of the end is upon us.
 
Hemorrage said:
It was meant to be loud. I think the majority of us that have made it into medical school based off academic merit can agree that a certain level of academic diligence should be expected from future doctors. There are plenty of strong applicants with doctor compatible personalities that don't garner acceptances simply due to statistics. At one of my interviews, my interviewer told me about 60% of a given student's medical education is funded by external sources- why are schools taking such risks on applicants that clearly don't make the cut? It seems in this day and age, the concept of social egalitarianism and professional expectations foolishly are intermixed.

PS: I'm not saying i expect 3.5+/30+, instead pick cutoffs that have been proven to correlate with boards pass rate
Click to expand...
Your >27 MCAT was also wrong... Statistics have shown that there are no meaningful statistical differences b/t 25 MCAT (92% passing rate Step1) and 30+ MCAT (95% passing rate Step1)...
 
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This is good news for anyone who was planning on going ACGME residencies/fellowships after DO school.

Not so great news for the "Ortho surgery or Bust" people who went to DO school with the dream of nabbing one of the six available orthopedic surgery spots at the AOA residency.
 
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EMDO2018 said:
bull crap
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You obviously don't know who I am.

Been dying to say that for ages. But fir real, perhaps you're new here because generally when I pipe in its either to make a joke or drop HIGHLY educated opinions as I spent two of the last three years working on aspects of this very issue for the AMA in various positions and contexts.
 
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Hemorrage said:
That makes sense.. i guess with the expansion of US schools, the percentage will decrease drastically.



I'll be the first one to say that if MD and DO are ever going to reach equivalence, similarity in academic standards needs to be achieved. IMO, people shouldn't be getting into medical school with scores that predict failure on the USMLE (<27)
Click to expand...

Is there any data that shows correlation between low MCAT scores and low board scores?
 
On side note,

Watch as in the next few years as Touro-NY/Touro-CA get an average MCAT of 31 and DMU/MSU/Western-COMP breaks into 3.6+ average GPA.
 
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DoctorKrieger said:
The admissions standards are pretty much the same. It's the stats that matriculants/competitive applicants have that are a little lower for DO schools. That's really just a product of supply and demand. Every medical school has to turn down tons of qualified applicants every year, so they just go for the ones with the highest number as a way of choosing which one to accept. Most people have no idea what a DO is, even pre-meds, so the MD schools have a much larger pool to choose from and thus, higher average matriculant stats.

It's my guess today's news will result in higher averages at DO schools beginning with the next app cycle. That doesn't mean the standards have changed.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that the reason DO schools have lower statistics is because less people apply to them? I'm not sure that's true. When you go to your adviser and say I have a 3.4 and a 26, they say, apply to DO schools. So there's a specific targeting of DO schools for their lower admissions standards. So the distribution of scores in the pool is different, not just the size of the pool. If things were as you say then if more people applied to DO schools, the scores would go up, but that's not the case unless the pool of applicants have higher scores..If more people with 3.4s and 26s apply, then nothing changes...
 
asykes said:
Is there any data that shows correlation between low MCAT scores and low board scores?
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It's not a clear correlation...if anything predicts board scores it's your success in the first two years of med school...if any pre-med stats predict board scores it's undergrad science gpa.
 
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Steney01 said:
So you're saying that the reason DO schools have lower statistics is because less people apply to them? I'm not sure that's true. When you go to your adviser and say I have a 3.4 and a 26, they say, apply to DO schools. So there's a specific targeting of DO schools for their lower admissions standards. So the distribution of scores in the pool is different, not just the size of the pool. If things were as you say then if more people applied to DO schools, the scores would go up, but that's not the case unless the pool of applicants have higher scores..If more people with 3.4s and 26s apply, then nothing changes...
Click to expand...

Sure, a lot of students that are aware of the DO route and aren't turned off by letters following their name apply DO as a fallback option, especially those with borderline stats. And many (most?) of those that apply both MD and DO and get accepted to both opt for MD. That cumulatively affects DO average matriculant stats without having any bearing on their standards vs MD schools.
 
there absolutely is less applicants. A lot of DO schools are getting like 3,000-5,000 applicants, with schools like PCOM getting a lot more, at like 7,000. Now just for kicks lets compare PCOM to say Drexel, or Jefferson, or Temple...MD schools in the same city. Those schools (Temple and Drexel in Particular) get A LOT more applicants. We are talking 10,000+ for some schools:

https://www.aamc.org/download/161128/data/table1.pdf

For that reason alone they can be more choosy, irregardless of MD/DO merger stuff
 
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I can see some sort of system where allopathic schools offer some sort of elective OMM course over the summer after first year. It would also make sense for the COMLEX to be phased out and an osteopathic section add-on to the USMLE for DO students and those MD students who took OMM as an elective.
 
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Awesome Sauceome said:
there absolutely is less applicants. A lot of DO schools are getting like 3,000-5,000 applicants, with schools like PCOM getting a lot more, at like 7,000. Now just for kicks lets compare PCOM to say Drexel, or Jefferson, or Temple...MD schools in the same city. Those schools (Temple and Drexel in Particular) get A LOT more applicants. We are talking 10,000+ for some schools:

https://www.aamc.org/download/161128/data/table1.pdf

For that reason alone they can be more choosy, irregardless of MD/DO merger stuff
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Number of applicants doesn't necessarily mean much...lecom (DO) gets 12000 applicants....it's how many applicants per spot that matters..
 
DoctorKrieger said:
Sure, a lot of students that are aware of the DO route and aren't turned off by letters following their name apply DO as a fallback option, especially those with borderline stats. And many (most?) of those that apply both MD and DO and get accepted to both opt for MD. That cumulatively affects DO average matriculant stats without having any bearing on their standards vs MD schools.
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I guess i'm not seeing the distinction between stats and standards that you're making..
 
serenade said:
Most premeds don't have a clue about SDN and what is happening. They simply know what their advisors say.
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I completely agree. The majority of pre-meds wouldn't even know how to interpret this kind of news.

I also think that a majority of pre-meds who refuse to apply DO are simply hung up on the letters after their name. Even though nobody likes to admit this, I think it's the case most of the time. This kind of news isn't going to change that.
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
there absolutely is less applicants. A lot of DO schools are getting like 3,000-5,000 applicants, with schools like PCOM getting a lot more, at like 7,000. Now just for kicks lets compare PCOM to say Drexel, or Jefferson, or Temple...MD schools in the same city. Those schools (Temple and Drexel in Particular) get A LOT more applicants. We are talking 10,000+ for some schools:

https://www.aamc.org/download/161128/data/table1.pdf

For that reason alone they can be more choosy, irregardless of MD/DO merger stuff
Click to expand...

loving the fact you used the word "irregardless."
 
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I feel so late to the party! This is excellent news, no matter how many possible negatives you can think of. This day is massive ladies and gentlemen!
 
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@Goro - question for you...

How are you and/or other adcoms expecting this to play a role in incoming class stats? If I'm applying for DO in June, will I now be looking at incoming class averages of 30 and 3.6+?
 
Steney01 said:
I guess i'm not seeing the distinction between stats and standards that you're making..
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I'm taking 'standards' to mean the minimum requirements to be accepted/apply to a school. From what I can remember when I applied, most schools, MD or DO, have minimums around 3.0 sgpa and 21 MCAT. Obviously very, very few people meeting just the minimum requirements get in, but I take that to be the standards of the school.

I'm considering 'stats' to mean the gpa/mcat required to be considered competitive for a school and average matriculant gpa/mcat, which are certainly lower, on average, for DO schools when compared to MD schools.
 
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