GOP Candidate Dr. Ben Carson openly says a Muslim should not be president

[Spector1]

I have already stated and agree with the fact that there is no central authority, specifically a loss of influential scholars, that this has really hurt Islam. So I agree that there is no central authority. However, I did not state that those who back Sharia Law are a "nutcase fashion"--Sharia Law is merely the implementation of an Islamic legal system. The way groups like Boko Haram and ISIS define Sharia Law has never been in Islam's history, they have ignored all previous interpretation of Hadith and various Quranic verses and come up with their own. This is why a majority of Muslim's do not even consider these groups, who kill more Muslim's than they do any other religion, to themselves truly be part of Islam.

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You're suggesting that this interpretation of islam is somehow not truly part of islam. Again you are accusing them of heresy. Care to cite sources?

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[Pusheen]

Did anyone actually read what was said?

Carson, meanwhile, was asked Sunday whether a president's faith should matter to voters.

"I guess it depends on what that faith is," he said. "If it's inconsistent with the values and principles of America, then of course it should matter. But if it fits within the realm of America and consistent with the Constitution, no problem."

Asked whether Islam is consistent with the Constitution, Carson said: "No, I don't -- I do not."

I'n sorry, I can't agree that Islam is a religion that is politically consistent with the Western, secular values of the Constitution. That isn't a bash on Islam at all, it's an obvious fact. Theocracy, different treatment of men and women, religious law are all politically inconsistent with the Constitution. And that's ok..different parts of the world have diferent cultures/values/ideals.

We're so anxious to prove that everyone is exactly the same and that saying otherwise is heresy, racism, and bigotry, that we ignore the obvious.

He made it clear that the issue here was that ANYONE of ANY faith needs to be in line with the Constitution.

 

[Throwaway201536]

You're suggesting that this interpretation of islam is somehow not truly part of islam. Again you are accusing them of heresy. Care to cite sources?

I don't have any handy, you can research taqlid if you'd like. Taqlid are interpretations that were made by Islam's judicial scholars and passed down through history. abdul wahhab in creating wahhabism simply ignored them, and combined with the fall of the Islamic caliphate (and loss of influential scholars) this created the vacancy by which Islamic extremism has risen. Austere interpretations had always been around, as were extremist groups, however there was an authority there to keep them in check--scholars highly regarded, respected, and powerful enough to belittle their extremist interpretations and ideology. That authority is gone.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[Doudline]

If non-Muslims try to visit places like Mecca or Medina, they are killed. This is not a joke, and isn't something that's very controversial - it's a fact, and one that any knowledgeable Muslim will readily admit. It's things like this that confuse the average American when confronted with Islam. How could we elect a leader that is so different from that vast majority of Americans? How could we elect a leader who identifies with a religion that kills innocent people who attempt to visit the epicenter of their religion? Would it not be a disservice to put someone so different in charge? Perhaps this is what Carson is getting at..

Because our Christian leaders have such esteem for human rights and the value of peace, right?

It's like the USA has funded terrorist groups in Israel, Cuba, Nicaragua, Iran, South Africa, Angola, El Salvador, Iraq Cuba and many others, which resulted in millions of deaths? Invaded illegally -by UN and World Court legal standards- more countries than any other state in the world during the last century? Directly killed thousands of civilians during its "War on Terror" in the Middle East, with its use of drones and land war - mostly for geopolitical and resources control? Created and spread state-sanctioned torture to gather information for itself and its allies? Spies -illegally, needless to say- on every foreign government, including its allies, up to the highest levels, and even citizens on its own country? Open assassination of any who is purported to be against US interests?

If a country like Pakistan -or any other Muslim state- returned the favor on even a fraction of the atrocities we committed there -drone strikes, land invasion, murder of high rankings opponents-, the USA would probably open a nuclear war. That's the thing you -and other blind chauvinists- cannot seem to comprehend. This country is the biggest terrorist group in the world by a landslide.

And you see, those are the legacy and values of your dear Christian leaders. Policies and actions I'm sure a "vast majority of Americans" identify with.

 

[whitemagic]

Frankly, I expected more from Mr. Carson. My mind is blown by how somebody who is so intelligent and has faced adversity via prejudice and discrimination himself could be so keen to denounce other groups that face the same struggles. Some people will do anything for votes.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Ahh its fun to see the normal Anti-URM people bashing Islam , anyone noticing patterns of behavior? .. What beautiful future doctors you lot will make.But that's none of my business
s

 

[whitemagic]

^ If someone's opening argument is "lets not kid ourselves, islam is not a religion of peace," I think it's safe to completely disregard them and not even bother wasting time arguing. Cultural competence at it's finest!

 

[Pusheen]

Frankly, I expected more from Mr. Carson. My mind is blown by how somebody who is so intelligent and has faced adversity via prejudice and discrimination himself could be so keen to denounce other groups that face the same struggles. Some people will do anything for votes.

I get where you're coming from..but is that something you would call denouncement? To say that a religion is inconsistent with the Constitution? I'm pretty sure one could say that about almost every religion. If a president put all his religious beliefs into practice when running the country, wouldn't that be unconstitutional? I don't think anyone, Muslim or Christian, who does that should be president.

 

[whitemagic]

I get where you're coming from..but is that something you would call denouncement? To say that a religion is inconsistent with the Constitution? I'm pretty sure one could say that about almost every religion. If a president put all his religious beliefs into practice when running the country, wouldn't that be unconstitutional? I don't think anyone, Muslim or Christian, who does that should be president.

I can follow that entirely, but to me the problem is in the implication that it is exclusive to Muslims. A fundamentalist Christian's beliefs would also be unconstitutional, no? His stance implies that no Muslim can have a viewpoint that aligns with the Constitution, while a Christian surely can. This is wrong and appalling IMO, and tbh I'm not even 100% positive he believes it himself. But I do know that he just got 100% of the vote of the redneck and Zionist population so kudos to him I guess :/

 

[ZedsDed]

I am a moderater. I am aware this thread exists. I'm not expecting this to go well. But I'd certainly be happy if you all managed to prove me wrong...

Hope springs eternal.

 

[ZedsDed]

Because our Christian leaders have such esteem for human rights and the value of peace, right?

It's like the USA has funded terrorist groups in Israel, Cuba, Nicaragua, Iran, South Africa, Angola, El Salvador, Iraq Cuba and many others, which resulted in millions of deaths? Invaded illegally -by UN and World Court legal standards- more countries than any other state in the world during the last century? Directly killed thousands of civilians during its "War on Terror" in the Middle East, with its use of drones and land war - mostly for geopolitical and resources control? Created and spread state-sanctioned torture to gather information for itself and its allies? Spies -illegally, needless to say- on every foreign government, including its allies, up to the highest levels, and even citizens on its own country? Open assassination of any who is purported to be against US interests?

Are any of these things done in the name of Christianity?

 

[ZedsDed]

^ If someone's opening argument is "lets not kid ourselves, islam is not a religion of peace," I think it's safe to completely disregard them and not even bother wasting time arguing. Cultural competence at it's finest!

Moral outrage is not really conducive to a constructive discussion.

I can follow that entirely, but to me the problem is in the implication that it is exclusive to Muslims. A fundamentalist Christian's beliefs would also be unconstitutional, no? His stance implies that no Muslim can have a viewpoint that aligns with the Constitution, while a Christian surely can. This is wrong and appalling IMO, and tbh I'm not even 100% positive he believes it himself. But I do know that he just got 100% of the vote of the redneck and Zionist population so kudos to him I guess :/

Yeah, Christians are definitely hypocritical in this regard.

 

[Pusheen]

I can follow that entirely, but to me the problem is in the implication that it is exclusive to Muslims. A fundamentalist Christian's beliefs would also be unconstitutional, no? His stance implies that no Muslim can have a viewpoint that aligns with the Constitution, while a Christian surely can. This is wrong and appalling IMO, and tbh I'm not even 100% positive he believes it himself. But I do know that he just got 100% of the vote of the redneck and Zionist population so kudos to him I guess :/

Well since Christianity has been the prevailing religion in the West, I must say that it does line up with the Constitution culturally and socially more than Islam. I don't think saying that is crossing the line, yet.
I do agree that any religion needs to be kept out of the political sphere though. Christianity just slips in more easily and with less hubbub, since it's been around here for so long.
I think he should have said something like, 'the religion, Islam, Christianity, whatever, is unimportant as long as it does not keep the President from fulfilling the Constitution.'

 

[Chelsea FC]

O you talking about the Christians who are currently running for president who think their faith makes it okay to take away a woman's right to choose??? Or the Christians who thinks because the hate dictated by their faith its okay to deny gay people their rights?.. Or George Bush who has said numerous times GOD told him to invade Iraq which subsequently led to the death of thousands of people and left the power gap which ISIS rose from?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

 

[cbrons]

This is somewhat old news, but I am surprised no one on SDN has picked it up. How is it this has not gotten more steam? Could you imagine if in the last election someone said a black person should not be president? Why is it we are so focused on "discrimination" against blacks, when candidates can say someone's religion should stop them from representing our nation?

Also I put "discrimination" in quotes because I do not believe the discrimination is reserved just for blacks, it is faced by any minority (race, sexual orientation, ses, etc.) in this country.

WHERE ARE THE PITCHFORKS, HOW IS HE #2 IN THE POLLS?

In case people want a source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/20/politics/ben-carson-muslim-president-2016/

Last edit: I honestly think candidates are just seeing Trump having such great success with transparency they are trying to mimic him. Trump really has ruffled up this political game.

1. Shut up
2. Take this trash to the sociopolitical forums

 

[whitemagic]

Well since Christianity has been the prevailing religion in the West, I must say that it does line up with the Constitution culturally and socially more than Islam. I don't think saying that is crossing the line, yet.
I do agree that any religion needs to be kept out of the political sphere though. Christianity just slips in more easily and with less hubbub, since it's been around here for so long.
I think he should have said something like, 'the religion, Islam, Christianity, whatever, is unimportant as long as it does not keep the President from fulfilling the Constitution.'

Agree 100%. But if he had included other religions into his tirade then this would have been a nonstory. Instead he singled out one religion and is rightfully being painted as a bigot.

 

[Pusheen]

Agree 100%. But if he had included other religions into his tirade then this would have been a nonstory. Instead he singled out one religion and is rightfully being painted as a bigot.

Eh, they asked him about one religion, he didn't single it out. I wouldn't call it a tirade, either.

I really wish people in general could separate their beliefs from politics. I know there are people of all religions out there who can look at things objectively and without bias. Unfortunately, to get any votes at all, one must be extreme and exaggerated. This is now more of a rant about the GOP and the election process in general. I'm fairly conservative myself, and almost all these candidates are unfortunate

 

[Chelsea FC]

Eh, they asked him about one religion, he didn't single it out. I wouldn't call it a tirade, either.

I really wish people in general could separate their beliefs from politics. I know there are people of all religions out there who can look at things objectively and without bias. Unfortunately, to get any votes at all, one must be extreme and exaggerated. This is now more of a rant about the GOP and the election process in general. I'm fairly conservative myself, and almost all these candidates are unfortunate

But arent the Republicans the ones using their religion to influence legislation ? Their views on gay marriage and advocating for people to deny gay people service, their adamant urge to take away women rights based on their religion .. The Christian elected officials are the ones who feel that they need to impose their religion on everyone else. And the reason they are so against Muslims holding office is because they fear that a Muslim will impose their religious views on the people of america like they have been doing for years. 40% of republicans believe the president of the country is a Muslim and isnt a american . This statistic alone should tell you about the party you are backing, If I am standing in a room filled with crazies then clearly you are in the wrong room.. Also remember they were the same ones bashing him about his church and his pastor Jeremiah Wright and now suddenly he is not a christian .. No other president was called a Muslim I wonder why they chose to do it to the first Black one ???.... I bet race had nothing to do with that ...

 

[deleted702880]

I see now why religion and politics shouldn't be pulled up during interviews.

 

[wasteofspace323]

I wouldn't want a Jehova's Witness or Mormon for president.

Well, actually, I would. But that would be for the comedic value, not for quality assurance purposes.

 

[gannicus89]

Carson was somewhat disappointing during the last debate. Despite his admirable career and achievements, I can't see him as our president, or a president in general. He has no presence, no charisma. Total snoozefest.

However, I don't think he was being punitive when he made that statement about a Muslim president. It's not that a Muslim can't be a good president, of course he/she can. It's a matter of fit for this country- especially given current foreign affairs and distrust of Muslim people by some, not all, Americans. Americans already don't trust the government, why exacerbate that situation. This simply isn't the right time for a Muslim candidate for presidency. I imagine this may become a possibility a few decades down the line.

 

[Lawpy]

I am a moderater. I am aware this thread exists. I'm not expecting this to go well. But I'd certainly be happy if you all managed to prove me wrong...

Should've moved this thread to the sociopolitical forums

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

For real. This thread is not appropriate for pre-allo.

 

[Lucca]

This is the worst thread ever, you guys don't know what the **** you are talking about.


Sanitized by enlightenment values? Moorish (read: Muslim) controlled Western Europe and Northern Africa led the greatest, longest, and most important period of peaceful coexistence between the Abrahamic religions in the history of the world. It was at the Academy in Alexandria (controlled by Muslisms at the time, populated by Greeks, Christians, Jews, etc all who worked side by side with each other at the Academy$ where Ptolemy and others gave us the mathematical tools we needed to make accurate maps. Sanitized by engligjtenment values? Bitch, the classical Muslism world gave us the goddamn enlightenment. They are the reason that important classical texts of philosophy, history, medicine and mathematics survived to this day. Their multi-lingual, theologically literate (in the broadest sense) scholars were busy AF translating classical texts into modern languages so the common man could benefit from their knowledge. Meanwhile in Christian controlled Europe Nero was burning down Rome and **** and the "enlightened Christians" we're forming bandit troops with the mandate of the church to "take back" Western Europe aka territory that had been controlled by Muslims for 400 years at the time. How would you like it if 150 years from now the Brits came back to America all of a sudden and said "Ok, we are reconquering this now" I'm sure that would be accepted as legitimate by all parties involved.

Bitch who do you think gave us Algebra? That word is hella Arabic so I don't think it was the witch burning, stone throwing, dark Age Christians who were still drawing silly ass maps with unicorns and **** on them. This is not a joke. At the time when Muslim scholars were inventing Algebra and performing autopsies on corpses to actually learn wtf was going on inside the body instead of just listening to Aristotle's classical guesswork. Ibn Sina (aka Avicenna in Latin) gave us one of the most important classical medical texts in the history of medicine which had empirical and classical explanations for illness. It's no Annals of Internal Medicine but it's a hell of a lot better than the bleeding, leeching and lobotomizing that was going on in Christian Europe at the time. They were even nice enough to share their knowledge with the "infidels" at their academies in Northern Africa.

Centuries of enlightenment values my ****ing ass. The Muslim world spent way more time being enlightened than the modern Christians. The rise of radical Islam is a reactionary force more closely attributed to the continued in democratic exploitation of developing nations that have been continually subject to power vacuums (China, Russia, Soviet Union, now America) for the past 100-150 years. The formation of weak, unstable states is far more responsible for the radicalization of a State's people than whatever theology they have. Take a look at subharan African countries. There are Christians there who think gays should be stoned and killed (hell, there are many in the US who think this) and who still go to war with one another's tribes because of religion. And this is Muslim on Muslim, Christian on Christian. If people don't have food, access to education, shelter and care guess what: some desperate **** happens and religion always sells the book with all of the answers in it. This is not defending theocracies or sharia law, but you got to be ****ing kidding me if you think Islam is responsible for its own radicalization. The bible says some crazy ****ing ****, you should read it and the Quran has doe beautiful poetry in it. Like all religious texts, they are impossible to compartmentalizations, they have differential and controversial interpretations and most educated people in stable situations will
Opt for the interpretation that preserves peace. Why? Because people don't want to kill other people, people don't want war all of the goddamn time people want to be safe. People will lash out if they feel threatened and I'm pretty sure nothing is more threatening than being surrounded by countries who want your people erased from the face of the earth. With the amount of sympathy we give Israel for being in an identical predicament we sure as hell don't give a **** about Muslims.

History is way longer than you think.

You know how many Christians give a **** St Peter said that women can't talk in church? You know how many devout AF Jews and Christians don't give a flying **** that God told Moses to stone some dude for working on the Sabbath? Very few. Because those people are dumb and crazy, often because of the circumstances of their upbringing. If you give people adequate opportunity than the outcome won't be ******* crazy people but hey maybe I'm wrong because there are a bunch of supposedly intelligent college students in this thread spouting off ignorant bull**** when they don't know what the **** they are actually talking about. Religion this, radicals thought. Bitch, geopolitical conflict, that's the heart of what's been going on in the Middle East and the ayatollah himself is lying to you if he tells you this is about who gets Jerusalem.


I'm an Atheist and I think being religious is basically a waste of time but I don't think it categorically makes people "bad" because they haven't been "sanitized". What the **** is sanitizing about John Locke anyway? Descartes thought the soul talked to you through the pituitary gland I'm really glad he was around to add that enlightened insight into Christian theology so that I wouldn't feel like killing people who weren't like me. Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Not because of crusades, not because of jihad, not because of taliban recruiting.



Because whine you walk into a mosque, regardless of race, creed, hometown, AND EVEN RELIGION, the people there wil greet you with the same honorifics, happily hear your opinion on the recited poetry, accept your help in a time of need, help you when you need it. AKA for the same reasons people converted to Christianity. The difference is that the main conversion force for Christianity on the earth today is the Catholic Church and membership in this group has a lot of asterisks ("no we won't give your village birth control, yes your seizures are because of demons, poverty is good just give in to the church") and mosques will take in basically anyone at any time often providing aid that conflicts with Quranic teachings. You would have to struggle to find the one in a million mosque that trains terrorists.


Tl;dr you guys are really ****ing stupid.

 

[NotYou20]

Did anyone actually read what was said?

Carson, meanwhile, was asked Sunday whether a president's faith should matter to voters.

"I guess it depends on what that faith is," he said. "If it's inconsistent with the values and principles of America, then of course it should matter. But if it fits within the realm of America and consistent with the Constitution, no problem."

Asked whether Islam is consistent with the Constitution, Carson said: "No, I don't -- I do not."

I'n sorry, I can't agree that Islam is a religion that is politically consistent with the Western, secular values of the Constitution. That isn't a bash on Islam at all, it's an obvious fact. Theocracy, different treatment of men and women, religious law are all politically inconsistent with the Constitution. And that's ok..different parts of the world have diferent cultures/values/ideals.

We're so anxious to prove that everyone is exactly the same and that saying otherwise is heresy, racism, and bigotry, that we ignore the obvious.

He made it clear that the issue here was that ANYONE of ANY faith needs to be in line with the Constitution.

That Islam in general isn't consistent with the constitution (not agreeing our disagreeing with this statement) does not mean a Muslim cannot have views that are wholly consistent with it. There are tons of different ways people practice the religion, and the issue is that he believes every last one of them cannot be in line with the constitution.

And then there's the hilarious hypocrisy that he appears to believe whatever is in the bible which is clearly not consistent with the constitution.

 

[Lawpy]

Dat @Lucca meltdown

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

This is the worst thread ever, you guys don't know what the **** you are talking about.


Sanitized by enlightenment values? Moorish (read: Muslim) controlled Western Europe and Northern Africa led the greatest, longest, and most important period of peaceful coexistence between the Abrahamic religions in the history of the world. It was at the Academy in Alexandria (controlled by Muslisms at the time, populated by Greeks, Christians, Jews, etc all who worked side by side with each other at the Academy$ where Ptolemy and others gave us the mathematical tools we needed to make accurate maps. Sanitized by engligjtenment values? Bitch, the classical Muslism world gave us the goddamn enlightenment. They are the reason that important classical texts of philosophy, history, medicine and mathematics survived to this day. Their multi-lingual, theologically literate (in the broadest sense) scholars were busy AF translating classical texts into modern languages so the common man could benefit from their knowledge. Meanwhile in Christian controlled Europe Nero was burning down Rome and **** and the "enlightened Christians" we're forming bandit troops with the mandate of the church to "take back" Western Europe aka territory that had been controlled by Muslims for 400 years at the time. How would you like it if 150 years from now the Brits came back to America all of a sudden and said "Ok, we are reconquering this now" I'm sure that would be accepted as legitimate by all parties involved.

Bitch who do you think gave us Algebra? That word is hella Arabic so I don't think it was the witch burning, stone throwing, dark Age Christians who were still drawing silly ass maps with unicorns and **** on them. This is not a joke. At the time when Muslim scholars were inventing Algebra and performing autopsies on corpses to actually learn wtf was going on inside the body instead of just listening to Aristotle's classical guesswork. Ibn Sina (aka Avicenna in Latin) gave us one of the most important classical medical texts in the history of medicine which had empirical and classical explanations for illness. It's no Annals of Internal Medicine but it's a hell of a lot better than the bleeding, leeching and lobotomizing that was going on in Christian Europe at the time. They were even nice enough to share their knowledge with the "infidels" at their academies in Northern Africa.

Centuries of enlightenment values my ****ing ass. The Muslim world spent way more time being enlightened than the modern Christians. The rise of radical Islam is a reactionary force more closely attributed to the continued in democratic exploitation of developing nations that have been continually subject to power vacuums (China, Russia, Soviet Union, now America) for the past 100-150 years. The formation of weak, unstable states is far more responsible for the radicalization of a State's people than whatever theology they have. Take a look at subharan African countries. There are Christians there who think gays should be stoned and killed (hell, there are many in the US who think this) and who still go to war with one another's tribes because of religion. And this is Muslim on Muslim, Christian on Christian. If people don't have food, access to education, shelter and care guess what: some desperate **** happens and religion always sells the book with all of the answers in it. This is not defending theocracies or sharia law, but you got to be ****ing kidding me if you think Islam is responsible for its own radicalization. The bible says some crazy ****ing ****, you should read it and the Quran has doe beautiful poetry in it. Like all religious texts, they are impossible to compartmentalizations, they have differential and controversial interpretations and most educated people in stable situations will
Opt for the interpretation that preserves peace. Why? Because people don't want to kill other people, people don't want war all of the goddamn time people want to be safe. People will lash out if they feel threatened and I'm pretty sure nothing is more threatening than being surrounded by countries who want your people erased from the face of the earth. With the amount of sympathy we give Israel for being in an identical predicament we sure as hell don't give a **** about Muslims.

History is way longer than you think.

You know how many Christians give a **** St Peter said that women can't talk in church? You know how many devout AF Jews and Christians don't give a flying **** that God told Moses to stone some dude for working on the Sabbath? Very few. Because those people are dumb and crazy, often because of the circumstances of their upbringing. If you give people adequate opportunity than the outcome won't be ******* crazy people but hey maybe I'm wrong because there are a bunch of supposedly intelligent college students in this thread spouting off ignorant bull**** when they don't know what the **** they are actually talking about. Religion this, radicals thought. Bitch, geopolitical conflict, that's the heart of what's been going on in the Middle East and the ayatollah himself is lying to you if he tells you this is about who gets Jerusalem.


I'm an Atheist and I think being religious is basically a waste of time but I don't think it categorically makes people "bad" because they haven't been "sanitized". What the **** is sanitizing about John Locke anyway? Descartes thought the soul talked to you through the pituitary gland I'm really glad he was around to add that enlightened insight into Christian theology so that I wouldn't feel like killing people who weren't like me. Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Not because of crusades, not because of jihad, not because of taliban recruiting.



Because whine you walk into a mosque, regardless of race, creed, hometown, AND EVEN RELIGION, the people there wil greet you with the same honorifics, happily hear your opinion on the recited poetry, accept your help in a time of need, help you when you need it. AKA for the same reasons people converted to Christianity. The difference is that the main conversion force for Christianity on the earth today is the Catholic Church and membership in this group has a lot of asterisks ("no we won't give your village birth control, yes your seizures are because of demons, poverty is good just give in to the church") and mosques will take in basically anyone at any time often providing aid that conflicts with Quranic teachings. You would have to struggle to find the one in a million mosque that trains terrorists.


Tl;dr you guys are really ****ing stupid.

 

[Lawpy]

Mixing politics with preallo has similar, if not larger, effect to throwing solid sodium into a bathtub of water.

 

[Pusheen]

But arent the Republicans the ones using their religion to influence legislation ? Their views on gay marriage and advocating for people to deny gay people service, their adamant urge to take away women rights based on their religion .. The Christian elected officials are the ones who feel that they need to impose their religion on everyone else. And the reason they are so against Muslims holding office is because they fear that a Muslim will impose their religious views on the people of america like they have been doing for years. 40% of republicans believe the president of the country is a Muslim and isnt a american . This statistic alone should tell you about the party you are backing, If I am standing in a room filled with crazies then clearly you are in the wrong room.. Also remember they were the same ones bashing him about his church and his pastor Jeremiah Wright and now suddenly he is not a christian .. No other president was called a Muslim I wonder why they chose to do it to the first Black one ???.... I bet race had nothing to do with that ...

I don't know what that tirade has to do with my quote that you responded to, but sure. I wasn't defending Republicans at all, more like condemning

 

[Lawpy]

But I'd certainly be happy if you all managed to prove me wrong...

So... about that...

 

[Lucca]

just close this thread pls

 

[Pusheen]

That Islam in general isn't consistent with the constitution (not agreeing our disagreeing with this statement) does not mean a Muslim cannot have views that are wholly consistent with it. There are tons of different ways people practice the religion, and the issue is that he believes every last one of them cannot be in line with the constitution.

And then there's the hilarious hypocrisy that he appears to believe whatever is in the bible which is clearly not consistent with the constitution.

ya, xyphr and I discussed both of those things already, read above.

 

[steeeeveo]

Uh, this is America? America has been scared off from muslims since 9/11. Whether it was warranted or not, doesn't matter. It's the reality, and it appeals to many people in this country. He's just being a politician. The best you can do is not vote for him and support other candidates if it bothers you.

 

[Cotterpin]

Blacks are on average more violent and more prone to criminal activity than whites. That statistic is useless when electing our president. President is determined by the qualities of one individual.

I think you really hit the nail on the head. Most of the discussion in this thread has been about broad stereotypes of religious groups, not about individual people. You can't just take an entire huge chunk of people and say "none of these people should be president," regardless of what statistics might suggest about that group. That's pure prejudice. Give me a specific person of any religion (or no religion) and only then would I be able to make a valid judgment of whether that one person would be a good president or not.

 

[whitemagic]

For the most part, I would actually say this thread has been pretty respectful. Even though some people hold opinions wholly 180 degrees from mine, I've had civil conversation.

I will say that the parallels between users in this thread and the anti-URM thread is very hilarious. Are these guys planning opening up a private practice in the Bible Belt or something?

 

[Doudline]

Are any of these things done in the name of Christianity?

Not explicitly, for the majority.

I am simply pointing out that, despite every of our president being a devout Christian in recent times, it hasn't stopped them from committing some of the more inhumane atrocities to have seen light. That, if we were to base our judgment of Christian values based on the organized behavior of a few -like the "killing" of foreigners in Mecca, which has been pointed out as a fabrication already-, in this case the US government, we'd come to a grimmer picture than we would for any Muslim country.

(And, shall we not forget, Christianity was the biggest oppressive and regressive force in the world for the last two thousand years. That it slightly amended itself in the last few decades -in some parts of the world at least, and against its own will- isn't an impressive feat.)

 

[ZedsDed]

This is the worst thread ever, you guys don't know what the **** you are talking about.


Sanitized by enlightenment values? Moorish (read: Muslim) controlled Western Europe and Northern Africa led the greatest, longest, and most important period of peaceful coexistence between the Abrahamic religions in the history of the world. It was at the Academy in Alexandria (controlled by Muslisms at the time, populated by Greeks, Christians, Jews, etc all who worked side by side with each other at the Academy$ where Ptolemy and others gave us the mathematical tools we needed to make accurate maps. Sanitized by engligjtenment values? Bitch, the classical Muslism world gave us the goddamn enlightenment. They are the reason that important classical texts of philosophy, history, medicine and mathematics survived to this day. Their multi-lingual, theologically literate (in the broadest sense) scholars were busy AF translating classical texts into modern languages so the common man could benefit from their knowledge. Meanwhile in Christian controlled Europe Nero was burning down Rome and **** and the "enlightened Christians" we're forming bandit troops with the mandate of the church to "take back" Western Europe aka territory that had been controlled by Muslims for 400 years at the time. How would you like it if 150 years from now the Brits came back to America all of a sudden and said "Ok, we are reconquering this now" I'm sure that would be accepted as legitimate by all parties involved.

It's definitely a fair point that the Muslim world held the candle of knowledge through much of the middle-ages. We don't live in the middle ages though, and Islam (as a force for combating ignorance) has declined greatly since then.

Bitch who do you think gave us Algebra? That word is hella Arabic so I don't think it was the witch burning, stone throwing, dark Age Christians who were still drawing silly ass maps with unicorns and **** on them. This is not a joke. At the time when Muslim scholars were inventing Algebra and performing autopsies on corpses to actually learn wtf was going on inside the body instead of just listening to Aristotle's classical guesswork. Ibn Sina (aka Avicenna in Latin) gave us one of the most important classical medical texts in the history of medicine which had empirical and classical explanations for illness. It's no Annals of Internal Medicine but it's a hell of a lot better than the bleeding, leeching and lobotomizing that was going on in Christian Europe at the time. They were even nice enough to share their knowledge with the "infidels" at their academies in Northern Africa.

Centuries of enlightenment values my ****ing ass. The Muslim world spent way more time being enlightened than the modern Christians. The rise of radical Islam is a reactionary force more closely attributed to the continued in democratic exploitation of developing nations that have been continually subject to power vacuums (China, Russia, Soviet Union, now America) for the past 100-150 years. The formation of weak, unstable states is far more responsible for the radicalization of a State's people than whatever theology they have. Take a look at subharan African countries. There are Christians there who think gays should be stoned and killed (hell, there are many in the US who think this) and who still go to war with one another's tribes because of religion. And this is Muslim on Muslim, Christian on Christian. If people don't have food, access to education, shelter and care guess what: some desperate **** happens and religion always sells the book with all of the answers in it. This is not defending theocracies or sharia law, but you got to be ****ing kidding me if you think Islam is responsible for its own radicalization. The bible says some crazy ****ing ****, you should read it and the Quran has doe beautiful poetry in it. Like all religious texts, they are impossible to compartmentalizations, they have differential and controversial interpretations and most educated people in stable situations will
Opt for the interpretation that preserves peace. Why? Because people don't want to kill other people, people don't want war all of the goddamn time people want to be safe. People will lash out if they feel threatened and I'm pretty sure nothing is more threatening than being surrounded by countries who want your people erased from the face of the earth. With the amount of sympathy we give Israel for being in an identical predicament we sure as hell don't give a **** about Muslims.

History is way longer than you think.

You know how many Christians give a **** St Peter said that women can't talk in church? You know how many devout AF Jews and Christians don't give a flying **** that God told Moses to stone some dude for working on the Sabbath? Very few. Because those people are dumb and crazy, often because of the circumstances of their upbringing. If you give people adequate opportunity than the outcome won't be ******* crazy people but hey maybe I'm wrong because there are a bunch of supposedly intelligent college students in this thread spouting off ignorant bull**** when they don't know what the **** they are actually talking about. Religion this, radicals thought. Bitch, geopolitical conflict, that's the heart of what's been going on in the Middle East and the ayatollah himself is lying to you if he tells you this is about who gets Jerusalem.

You are just ranting like a lunatic and flying off the handle now.

Maybe you'll stop foaming at the mouth if I tell you that I was raised by Muslim grandparents? Probably not...

I'm an Atheist and I think being religious is basically a waste of time but I don't think it categorically makes people "bad" because they haven't been "sanitized". What the **** is sanitizing about John Locke anyway? Descartes thought the soul talked to you through the pituitary gland I'm really glad he was around to add that enlightened insight into Christian theology so that I wouldn't feel like killing people who weren't like me. Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Not because of crusades, not because of jihad, not because of taliban recruiting.

I think the Enlightenment has contributed slightly more than that. Islam, like all religions, has produced next to nothing in modern times in comparison.

Because whine you walk into a mosque, regardless of race, creed, hometown, AND EVEN RELIGION, the people there wil greet you with the same honorifics, happily hear your opinion on the recited poetry, accept your help in a time of need, help you when you need it. AKA for the same reasons people converted to Christianity. The difference is that the main conversion force for Christianity on the earth today is the Catholic Church and membership in this group has a lot of asterisks ("no we won't give your village birth control, yes your seizures are because of demons, poverty is good just give in to the church") and mosques will take in basically anyone at any time often providing aid that conflicts with Quranic teachings. You would have to struggle to find the one in a million mosque that trains terrorists.

Nonsense. While many American-Muslim communities are very warm and welcoming (generally speaking), there are mosques in certain parts of the Middle-East that would never allow a gay or Jewish person to set foot inside, except maybe to convert. As a gay person, I can tell you that Muslim communities outside of the U.S. are anything but open to my lifestyle "choice."

just close this thread pls

Maybe you should leave? You are literally the only person who has lost their cool since this thread opened.

 

[ZedsDed]

Not implicitly, for the majority.

I am simply pointing out that, despite every of our president being a devout Christian in recent times, it hasn't stopped them from committing some of the more inhumane atrocities to have seen light. That, if we were to base our judgment of Christian values based on the organized behavior of a few -like the "killing" of foreigners in Mecca, which has been pointed out as a fabrication already-, in this case the US government, we'd come to a grimmer picture than we would for any Muslim country.

There is definitely something disturbing about GW evoking the name of God when discussing "victory" in Iraq. Still, if we are going to attribute such soft theological language to religion, than we would have to label Saddam Hussein a Muslim war criminal, and I don't think that's appropriate. I do think there is a significant difference between the U.S. government and ISIS.

 

[deleted642188]

I am a moderater. I am aware this thread exists. I'm not expecting this to go well. But I'd certainly be happy if you all managed to prove me wrong...

Please relocate this thread to Socio-Political Forum

 

[whitemagic]

Please relocate this thread to Socio-Political Forum

Agree. This has absolutely nothing to do with how to get into medical school and tbh I'm surprised it's not locked yet.

 

[ZedsDed]

Agree. This has absolutely nothing to do with how to get into medical school and tbh I'm surprised it's not locked yet.

It would only get locked for violation of TOS. Thus far, only one post has done this.

 

[deleted642188]

It would only get locked for violation of TOS. Thus far, only one post has done this.

what's TOS?

 

[Easonred57]

This thread has become what one would expect it to become. Also, someone posted a poll on the first page that was on a site administered by folks who appear on Fox News regularly. So there's that...

Synopsis because this is beating a dead horse: Islam is a religion of peace. Extremists exist in every religion. Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, and many Muslims I know actually had to flee leave Saudi because they couldn't deal with the extreme lifestyle. A Muslim president does not mean Sharia law, any more than a Christian president means we have to abide by religious doctrines. We have a constitution to protect us from being infringed upon by the religious beliefs of our leaders (though I will admit people have been finding ways to circumvent that lately).

I am a Christian who has lived in a Muslim country for a short period of time. I was gladly welcomed into mosques and places of worship, and I experienced nothing but friendly interactions from every person there.

 

[whitemagic]

This thread has become what one would expect it to become. Also, someone posted a poll on the first page that was on a site administered by folks who appear on Fox News regularly. So there's that...

Synopsis because this is beating a dead horse: Islam is a religion of peace. Extremists exist in every religion. Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, and many Muslims I know actually had to flee leave Saudi because they couldn't deal with the extreme lifestyle. A Muslim president does not mean Sharia law, any more than a Christian president means we have to abide by religious doctrines. We have a constitution to protect us from being infringed upon by the religious beliefs of our leaders (though I will admit people have been finding ways to circumvent that lately).

I am a Christian who has lived in a Muslim country for a short period of time. I was gladly welcomed into mosques and places of worship, and I experienced nothing but friendly interactions from every person there.

Nothing else needs to be said IMO. /thread

 

[ZedsDed]

This thread has become what one would expect it to become. Also, someone posted a poll on the first page that was on a site administered by folks who appear on Fox News regularly. So there's that...

Synopsis because this is beating a dead horse: Islam is a religion of peace. Extremists exist in every religion. Saudi Arabia is an extreme example, and many Muslims I know actually had to flee leave Saudi because they couldn't deal with the extreme lifestyle. A Muslim president does not mean Sharia law, any more than a Christian president means we have to abide by religious doctrines. We have a constitution to protect us from being infringed upon by the religious beliefs of our leaders (though I will admit people have been finding ways to circumvent that lately).

I am a Christian who has lived in a Muslim country for a short period of time. I was gladly welcomed into mosques and places of worship, and I experienced nothing but friendly interactions from every person there.

Muslim's are almost universally very open and accepting towards Christians. That's not really indicative of anything.

 

[ZedsDed]

what's TOS?

Terms Of Service

 

[almanac23]

I think the biggest issue in this thread is that most of the posters are not making a distinction between an American Muslim and a Muslim elsewhere. Most American Muslims love this country and will defend the values of this country. Just one of those examples at the Arlington National Cemetery.

 

[WingedOx]

well this thread has really shown some people's true colors...

 

[Lucca]

It's definitely a fair point that the Muslim world held the candle of knowledge through much of the middle-ages. We don't live in the middle ages though, and Islam (as a force for combating ignorance) has declined greatly since then.



You are just ranting like a lunatic and flying off the handle now.

Maybe you'll stop foaming at the mouth if I tell you that I was raised by Muslim grandparents? Probably not...



I think the Enlightenment has contributed slightly more than that. Islam, like all religions, has produced next to nothing in modern times in comparison.



Nonsense. While many American-Muslim communities are very warm and welcoming (generally speaking), there are mosques in certain parts of the Middle-East that would never allow a gay or Jewish person to set foot inside, except maybe to convert. As a gay person, I can tell you that Muslim communities outside of the U.S. are anything but open to my lifestyle "choice."



Maybe you should leave? You are literally the only person who has lost their cool since this thread opened.

I couldn't help but have a visceral reaction when the first thing I see in the morning is a thread where the first responses are: Islam is an evil religion, Muslims can't be trusted, Muslisms shouldn't be elected to public office, etc. what Ben Carson said was ridiculous, there should be no apologetics for people who hold such ridiculous and unfounded opinions.

You also seem to make the enlightenment out to an explicitly Christian movement. The philosophers of the time if labeled Christian at all are nothing like modern Christians and many were even atheists or deists or other similar forms of quasi-agnosticism. Islamic theologians have been debating similar ideas and integrating them into their teachings just as often as the Christians have and don't forget that all religions were resistant to the enlightenment movement; even if similar ideas are spoken of today as being vaguely Christian or Muslim they were anything but at the time. Even Thomas Aquinas' writings were not explicitly endorsed by the church - even condemned by some - until decades of debate among insiders had settled the matter.

I don't exonerate all Muslims, or Christians for that matter of all evil but the opinions on Islam at the beginning of this thread were unforgivably narrow and I responded in kind. Even though religious dogma is supposedly, well, dogma and sacrosanct and irrefutable and what not you cannot simply box people up into the terms the religion seems to set for itself in its holy texts. Jews eat shellfish and cut their beards, Christians don't keep slaves etc etc. As an atheist, I don't understand how people can hold onto contradictory views but as a human being I can understand the value, significance, comfort, intellectual interest etc which individuals invest into their particular faith and as university students it would be unacceptable for us to write off entire religions based on our own narrow perspectives and then proceed to pontificate on faulty premises how those perspectives should shape our society.

 

[group_theory]

Off topic for Pre-Allo. Closing.

There have been a number of complaints/reports stemming from this thread ... the mods will review and all appropriate actions (or inactions) will be made.