Goro’s advice for DO applicants in the absence of grade replacement

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Goro

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Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling, and you medical careers are not over.

I’m going to go out on a limb and make my advice as follows.

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. Never, ever retake a B.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) You are now in the position of someone who is considering MD schools as well as DO, after reinvention. There are MD schools that reward reinvention . The DO path will be a little easier, but still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level, but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school. I have written elsewhere as to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP.

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ MD schools

510+ your state MD school and any DO school

505+ any DO school

500+ the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools, and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

EDIT: kudos to darkeon for the addendum!
In addition, the former is less expensive. A formal post-bac program is more geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well.

The latter can be a backdoor into med school, and you real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. But if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has some added-value component, like some research venue.

EDIT: What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Physiology
Histology
Biostats
Cell Bio
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Biochem
Med Micro
Neuroscience
Immunology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology

DIY (Do It Yourself) post-bac just means you enroll at any school to take more courses. Some schools do offer a more formal post-bac option where you still take courses but have the guidance of a premed advisor and get some other perks that a typical traditional premed student gets.

SMP (special masters program) is a master's degree program (or sometimes certificate) where you take first-year med school courses for a whole year to prove your med-school worth. Typically, you need to apply with all the pre-reqs already done and have a mcat score. Doing well in these programs makes a weak candidate into a stronger one. That said, it's high risk, high reward, for if you do poorly, your chances are practically zero.

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If you choose the DIY Post-bacc option, would higher level science courses be the way to go? Such as Immunology, Cell Molec, Pathology, Genetics, Physiology, etc?

Let's say you had 150 hours of volunteering in the form of an internship (non-profit work addressing poorer communities) during undergraduate. You already have 50+ hours of shadowing. Would it still be beneficial to do clinical volunteering?
 
If you choose the DIY Post-bacc option, would higher level science courses be the way to go? Such as Immunology, Cell Molec, Pathology, Genetics, Physiology, etc?

Let's say you had 150 hours of volunteering in the form of an internship (non-profit work addressing poorer communities) during undergraduate. You already have 50+ hours of shadowing. Would it still be beneficial to do clinical volunteering?



Yeah, that sounds good class wise. I'd add Microbiology and Virology to that list.
 
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Thank you so much, @Goro! Would you recommend retaking D/F classes if they are not pre-req courses? One of the classes I got a D in was an architecture class.
 
sounds like there is beginning to be little difference between DO/MD apps besides the strength of the MCAT score.
 
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Yeah, that sounds good class wise. I'd add Microbiology to that list.

Awesome, I just wasn't sure if adcoms would see an SMP differently than an informal post-bacc of higher level sciences. For someone like me who has already retaken all C's from undergraduate pre-reqs with A's, I wasn't sure re-taking those same pre-reqs in an SMP would do me any good.

So just to clarify, for the people in my situation who are awkwardly sitting in-between (retaken all pre-reqs with good grades, new policy has GPA too low still), an informal post-bacc of higher level sciences trumps an SMP of same pre-reqs all over again?
 
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Awesome, I just wasn't sure if adcoms would see an SMP differently than an informal post-bacc of higher level sciences. For someone like me who has already retaken all C's from undergraduate pre-reqs with A's, I wasn't sure re-taking those same pre-reqs in an SMP would do me any good.

So just to clarify, for the people in my situation who are awkwardly sitting in-between (retaken all pre-reqs with good grades, new policy has GPA too low still), an informal post-bacc of higher level sciences trumps an SMP of same pre-reqs all over again?

It depends on how low your GPA is. In your case, I think an SMP would be best. There's no point in re-taking the pre-reqs unless you did horribly in them.
 
Thank you so much, @Goro! Would you recommend retaking D/F classes if they are not pre-req courses? One of the classes I got a D in was an architecture class.

Not if its not in a pre req...architecture class? Seriously? No do not retake lol. Just take upper division science courses.


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sounds like there is beginning to be little difference between DO/MD apps besides the strength of the MCAT score.

This plus the upcoming merger... things are really fusing together.
 
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This plus the upcoming merger... things are really fusing together.

And that, my friends, is a good thing for all of us DO's:biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::bullcrap:


Maybe in like 5 years it will be a combined degree. "Hey im Dr. Goro and I'm an MDO." Lel.
 
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And that, my friends, is a good thing for all of us DO's:biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::biglove::bullcrap:


Maybe in like 5 years it will be a combined degree. "Hey im Dr. Goro and I'm an MDO." Lel.

On a similar note.. just out of curiosity, how do graduates end up with a dual MD/DO degree? Is it by doing two residencies?
 
It depends on how low your GPA is. In your case, I think an SMP would be best. There's no point in re-taking the pre-reqs unless you did horribly in them.

At what GPA would you advise DIY post-bacc over an SMP?

I'm thinking if you're at 2.7-3.0 after re-takes, post-bacc with higher level sciences? And if you're 3.0-3.3 after re-takes, do SMP?
 
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At what GPA would you advise DIY post-bacc over an SMP?

I'm thinking if you're at 2.7-3.0 after re-takes, post-bacc with higher level sciences? And if you're 3.0-3.3 after re-takes, do SMP?

This is how I've understood it from others on here!
 
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On a similar note.. just out of curiosity, how do graduates end up with a dual MD/DO degree? Is it by doing two residencies?

You don't. The only time I have ever seen it was a DO who went back and got his MD from some random Caribbean school.
 
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Maybe in like 5 years it will be a combined degree. "Hey im Dr. Goro and I'm an MDO." Lel.
Goro is PhD, and I don't think anyone will accept "MDO" or any other strange combo. It's either MD or bust.

On a similar note.. just out of curiosity, how do graduates end up with a dual MD/DO degree? Is it by doing two residencies?
You need to get a degree from an MD granting institution and one from a DO granting institution. Back in the day you could pay like 5k and buy yourself a caribbean MD if you had a DO.
 
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Is math now going to be part of the AACOM science GPA?
 
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Goro is PhD, and I don't think anyone will accept "MDO" or any other strange combo. It's either MD or bust.


You need to get a degree from an MD granting institution and one from a DO granting institution. Back in the day you could pay like 5k and buy yourself a caribbean MD if you had a DO.
Lol bro, I think we all know both of those facts lol.
 
@Goro

What do you think about traditional master programs (aacomas 3.2cgpa/3.0sgpa)?
 
My cGPA is 3.2, and by sGPA is 3.18 ish (with some classes retaken, would've been higher with grade replacement obviously).

506 MCAT but I'm retaking it in 3 weeks. Hoping to raise it.

Is my best bet a non degree granting postbacc or a formal SMP?

My concern here is, I've heard stories of people finishing an SMP with an acceptable GPA and STILL not getting in anywhere. Thoughts? Opinions? Advice?

This news has definitely made me feel like the sky is falling, but I'm not planning on giving up.

You're actually not in bad shape. That MCAT is going to be your saving grace. I'd do a non degree postbacc to get your GPA up to about a 3.4 then apply broadly. You'll likely net several interviews based on your MCAT alone!
 
My cGPA is 3.2, and by sGPA is 3.18 ish (with some classes retaken, would've been higher with grade replacement obviously).

506 MCAT but I'm retaking it in 3 weeks. Hoping to raise it.

Is my best bet a non degree granting postbacc or a formal SMP?

My concern here is, I've heard stories of people finishing an SMP with an acceptable GPA and STILL not getting in anywhere. Thoughts? Opinions? Advice?

This news has definitely made me feel like the sky is falling, but I'm not planning on giving up.

I'm probably not the one you're looking for advice from, but with your current stats (assuming DO shadowing, decent ECs and good clinical experience) I think you have a shot at acceptance into a DO program this cycle. Check out the DO underdawgs thread. A lot of people there have similar stats AND benefitted from grade replacement (which as @AnatomyGrey12 wisely pointed out, was probably a slight asterisk on their app vs people with that GPA "naturally" like yourself) and a lot of them got into the newer DO schools.

If the new DO schools aren't your goal, definitely do an SMP. Some of them are really, really good. Check out AACOM's DO school PDF handbook free on their site. It breaks down which schools offer SMPs and the pros and cons of each. If you choose this route and handle an SMP, you'll be in great shape for DO with your MCAT, and if you improve your MCAT you could be competitive for DO too.

Good luck man.
 
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Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling, and you medical careers are not over.

I’m going to go out on a limb and make my advice as follows.

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. Never, ever retake a B.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) You are now in the position of someone who is considering MD schools as well as DO. The DO path will be a little easier, but still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level, but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school.

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ MD schools

510+ your state MD school and any DO school

505+ any DO school

500+ the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools, and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to post this as a way to reduce concerns and fears resulting from the disappointing AACOM decision
 
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@Goro

What do you think about traditional master programs (aacomas 3.2cgpa/3.0sgpa)?

Would love to hear this as well. Already finished a 2 year non-SMP biomedical masters degree with a thesis option, was hoping for grade deletions and then to apply DO. ~3.0ish aacomas with masters classes. Would I better to off to do an SMP now?
 
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And remember ladies and gents, it may seem tempting, they may even accept you when nobody else would, and they may even refer to you as "future doctor" in their email love letters they spam you, but never EVER go to a carribean school.

Go to Podiatry school before the Carribean. At least they get to practice medicine in the United States as doctors, and it's not a bad life. Heck, at this point I'd recommend pharmacy school over the islands. You may be miserable as a pharmacist, but at least you might get a jobs your willing to move to the rural areas.
 
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How many credits in the MS, and what were your GPAs?

Would love to hear this as well. Already finished a 2 year non-SMP biomedical masters degree with a thesis option, was hoping for grade deletions and then to apply DO. ~3.0ish aacomas with masters classes. Would I better to off to do an SMP now?
 
And remember ladies and gents, it may seem tempting, they may even accept you when nobody else would, and they may even refer to you as "future doctor" in their email love letters they spam you, but never EVER go to a carribean school.

Go to Podiatry school before the Carribean. At least they get to practice medicine in the United States as doctors, and it's not a bad life. Heck, at this point I'd recommend pharmacy school over the islands. You may be miserable as a pharmacist, but at least you might get a jobs your willing to move to the rural areas.

1. Merger will most likely help Caribbean students get residencies in the future.
2. You should not tell someone that they shouldn't follow their dreams and change career paths if they fully believe in their capabilities.
I know many people (friends and family) who recently got residencies in primary care who went to Ross/St. George.
-Will it be harder? yes
-Will you need higher STEP scores? Probably
But Caribbean schools are only bad for people who have very poor stats and think that going to medical school is magically going to make them doctors.

BUT if you have a 505+ MCAT and 3.4+ GPA WITH grade replacement (<3.0 without grade replacement), I feel like you can succeed at St. George or Ross Medical schools if you work your tail off.
 
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What would you say is the overall GPA goal? I'm at 3.4 cGPA and 2.9 sGPA (due to many bad grades early on, including a bunch of C's during dual enrollment) and have 140 credits already. I would really like to avoid doing a postbacc or SMP. Would taking another science class or two to bring my sGPA above 3.0 and getting a good MCAT score be enough?

Just looking for some light at the end of the tunnel.
 
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Thank you for the advice Goro. The masters I might attend is a non-thesis masters so it will comprise mostly of upper-level biology courses.
 
What would you say is the overall GPA goal? I'm at 3.4 cGPA and 2.9 sGPA (due to many bad grades early on, including a bunch of C's during dual enrollment) and have 140 credits already. I would really like to avoid doing a postbacc or SMP. Would taking another science class or two to bring my sGPA above 3.0 and getting a good MCAT score be enough?

Just looking for some light at the end of the tunnel.

Yea I think you could definitely get into one of the newer DO schools. I would apply broadly and see what happens, but definitely look into ACOM and the like. Your cGPA is very solid, especially for the new DO schools, and a 3.0 sGPA, while not ideal, wouldn't eliminate you from those. If you handle the MCAT (505+) You have a very good chance in my opinion.

To be safe though, I would take summer classes at a CC if I were you too. Not too expensive, usually broken up into two summer semesters. If you can get UD science classes in this summer AND do well in them too, you'll be good. My point is be proactive and have the mindset of trying to improve your app until you actually have the acceptance in your hand.

Good luck man.

Be advised that AACOMAS has "windows" during the summer, fall, and winter, of a few weeks where you can update your grades immediately. So if you can get some work in during the summer, and do well, you can update by September if I'm not mistaken, and that could be all the difference for you getting interviews.
 
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How many credits in the MS, and what were your GPAs?

Thanks for the reply @Goro.
I'm at 76 credits and a 3.80 cGPA in my masters and a 3.7 sGPA (science will probably be higher, but just to be on the safe site, I omitted one of my classes from that calculation.)

For undergrad, my uGPA was a 2.83 and my science was a ~2.5
 
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1. Merger will most likely help Caribbean students get residencies in the future.
2. You should not tell someone that they shouldn't follow their dreams and change career paths if they fully believe in their capabilities.
I know many people (friends and family) who recently got residencies in primary care who went to Ross/St. George.
-Will it be harder? yes
-Will you need higher STEP scores? Probably
But Caribbean schools are only bad for people who have very poor stats and think that going to medical school is magically going to make them doctors.

BUT if you have a 505+ MCAT and 3.4+ GPA WITH grade replacement (<3.0 without grade replacement), I feel like you can succeed at St. George or Ross Medical schools if you work your tail off.

Lol
 
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1. Merger will most likely help Caribbean students get residencies in the future.
2. You should not tell someone that they shouldn't follow their dreams and change career paths if they fully believe in their capabilities.
I know many people (friends and family) who recently got residencies in primary care who went to Ross/St. George.
-Will it be harder? yes
-Will you need higher STEP scores? Probably
But Caribbean schools are only bad for people who have very poor stats and think that going to medical school is magically going to make them doctors.

BUT if you have a 505+ MCAT and 3.4+ GPA WITH grade replacement (<3.0 without grade replacement), I feel like you can succeed at St. George or Ross Medical schools if you work your tail off.
what
 
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1. Merger will most likely help Caribbean students get residencies in the future.
2. You should not tell someone that they shouldn't follow their dreams and change career paths if they fully believe in their capabilities.
I know many people (friends and family) who recently got residencies in primary care who went to Ross/St. George.
-Will it be harder? yes
-Will you need higher STEP scores? Probably
But Caribbean schools are only bad for people who have very poor stats and think that going to medical school is magically going to make them doctors.

BUT if you have a 505+ MCAT and 3.4+ GPA WITH grade replacement (<3.0 without grade replacement), I feel like you can succeed at St. George or Ross Medical schools if you work your tail off.
Really? Since the number of residency positions in the U.S. are static, how specifically will the merger bolster Caribbean students prospects?
 
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Really? Since the number of residency positions in the U.S. are static, how specifically will the merger bolster Caribbean students prospects?


"As of now, USMDs/DOs/IMGs apply for spots through the NRMP, and DOs have protected AOA spots that only they can apply for. The only real consequence of this merger is that now the AOA spots will be open to everyone. How can this possibly be a bad thing for IMGs? The number of spots they can apply for is increasing.

This merger has nothing to do with increasing the total number of AMG applicants, all it does is open up the previously DO protected residency positions to everyone else. DOs will not have to choose to go through the AOA match first and withdrawal from the NRMP, which is good for them, but that won't have any consequence to the number of IMGs matching as they will just then fill the previously DO-only spots."
 
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1. Merger will most likely help Caribbean students get residencies in the future.
2. You should not tell someone that they shouldn't follow their dreams and change career paths if they fully believe in their capabilities.
I know many people (friends and family) who recently got residencies in primary care who went to Ross/St. George.
-Will it be harder? yes
-Will you need higher STEP scores? Probably
But Caribbean schools are only bad for people who have very poor stats and think that going to medical school is magically going to make them doctors.

BUT if you have a 505+ MCAT and 3.4+ GPA WITH grade replacement (<3.0 without grade replacement), I feel like you can succeed at St. George or Ross Medical schools if you work your tail off.

You have to consider the risk that you won't match. Everyone that goes Caribbean thinks they'll be the lucky ones that match. Think about the ones that don't. Just so much risk that most people aren't comfortable with.
 
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You have to consider the risk that you won't match. Everyone that goes Caribbean thinks they'll be the lucky ones that match. Think about the ones that don't. Just so much risk that most people aren't comfortable with.

It's not so much about "luck"
It's about hard work,dedication, and commitment to be successful in what you do. The people who think that they can be the "lucky" ones that match, are usually the ones that won't.
 
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When there's a will, there's a way. You must stay positive. You must use this as a reason to end all excuses and get serious. The AACOMAS news wrecked me, but only for a day or so. We have to persevere. My path just got lengthened, but I'm not going to let this take away from my deep gratitude to even be given the opportunity and intellectual capacity to take on such an endeavor. The first step is believing in yourself. The next step is putting some numbers on paper and proving yourself. This news devastated me, but it put a new fire under me to really get myself where I want and DESERVE to be. I'm going to channel all my frustration into MCAT studying. Who cares if I'm financially screwed. I'll pay it off eventually. I'll live under my means. I'll do anything to become a physician. LET'S DO THIS!!!!
 
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By the way, I know that this news probably shook a lot of you up. I really like to listen to peoples problems, so if any of you need an outlet to share your story or need help in any way, or need a safe space to vent, or just need a pep talk or some real advice about emotions, don't hesitate to PM me. I might not respond right away, and I'm not qualified to give advice on the pre med process, but I'm here to listen
 
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It's not so much about "luck"
It's about hard work,dedication, and commitment to be successful in what you do. The people who think that they can be the "lucky" ones that match, are usually the ones that won't.
I agree!
 
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Ace the MCAT and you should get some love from all DO schools, and some MD as well.


Thanks for the reply @Goro.
I'm at 76 credits and a 3.80 cGPA in my masters and a 3.7 sGPA (science will probably be higher, but just to be on the safe site, I omitted one of my classes from that calculation.)

For undergrad, my uGPA was a 2.83 and my science was a ~2.5
 
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"As of now, USMDs/DOs/IMGs apply for spots through the NRMP, and DOs have protected AOA spots that only they can apply for. The only real consequence of this merger is that now the AOA spots will be open to everyone. How can this possibly be a bad thing for IMGs? The number of spots they can apply for is increasing.

This merger has nothing to do with increasing the total number of AMG applicants, all it does is open up the previously DO protected residency positions to everyone else. DOs will not have to choose to go through the AOA match first and withdrawal from the NRMP, which is good for them, but that won't have any consequence to the number of IMGs matching as they will just then fill the previously DO-only spots."
There might be a small bump for FMG/IMG with the merger, but it will definitely not sustain. Believe it or not, there are many AMGs that go unmatched every year. The extra residencies mean more places that AMGs can scramble into. In addition, both MD and DO graduates are growing by both new schools and increase in class sizes, and on top, some residencies will not survive. In fact, almost all previously osteopathic ophthalmology and dermatology is on the brink of death.
 
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@Goro I was a trainwreck before I found SDN and got myself together. As per your advice, I put in a crapload of retakes to repair my GPA and am wrapping up a second degree. My GPA was so in the gutter that I've basically added a full point to my GPA (1.9 lowest point, 3.0 after this semester) with the full grade replacement policy. With it gone, I've plummeted to something significantly lower (I'll still need to calculate but maybe a 2.6??). I was hoping that with my upward trend (last 60 credits are >3.5) I would have a chance at at least the newer schools (ICOM opening in my state this year). My MCAT expires after this cycle (7/12/9=28) and I already have a bunch of schools that won't accept it because they switched out to the new MCAT. Do you have some advice on where to go from this point? I've put 7 years into undergrad at this point with retakes and finishing a second degree (bio first, health sciences second) and it feels like everything I've done to get into med school has gone to waste because of this change they decided to spring on me the semester before I apply. Is there some optimism you could give me?
 
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It's not so much about "luck"
It's about hard work,dedication, and commitment to be successful in what you do. The people who think that they can be the "lucky" ones that match, are usually the ones that won't.

If it was about hard work and dedication, then the person would have matriculated into a US program.
 
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Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing...
Thanks. This post was really helpful. It has really put things in perspective. I was seriously considering whether I should give up when I received the email yesterday and I suddenly became a less than competitive candidate. I am much older than pretty much anybody who has noted their age on here, and this change was quite deflating. That said, it's time to plan a new course and apply to SMPs.

It was also somewhat comforting to read this mess was the result of complex political pressure, and not simply that AACOMAS is run by jerks. They really should invest in some copy-writers, though. The online application reads like it was written by people so arrogant that they didn't consider consulting writers. The language explaining repeats under the old policy, as well as the recent post explaining the new repeat policy are verbose and poorly written. It's unreal, and makes me question the competency of the entire organization (probably unfairly).
 
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