Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

[DrMowMow]

Hi @Goro! I have been following this post for over a year and I am so grateful for all the advice you have given to reinventor students like myself. It has been a lifesaver. I wanted to ask you for some clarification regarding the school list you posted.

First off, to give you a brief overview of my stats:

My cGPA from undergrad is a 3.39 (graduated in 2014 with a Bio major from a T20 school) and I decided that I wanted to go to med school while doing a research Masters (3.9, not SMP - totally understand that this doesn’t count on AMCAS) and am currently in a postbacc (4.0 with 40 units). My total GPA should be around 3.54 after the postbacc. My undergrad science GPA is a 2.93 and should be a 3.37 after the postbacc classes.

I took the MCAT in August and received a 515.

Columbia, Duke, UCSF, Vandy, Pitt, Mayo, and Case have median MCAT scores of 518-520. Is it worth it to apply to them if I have a score of 515? Most advice threads say to apply to schools where the median is close to your MCAT score.

Furthermore, Tulane, GWU, Drexel, Albany, NYMC, Loyola, Tufts, Emory, Gtown are all consider “Low Yield” because they get over 10k applicants a year. How much luck have reinventor students had getting into these schools?

While I think my ECs, volunteering, research, publications, shadowing, LoRs, and story are all solid, I am quite nervous about my numbers.

A quick aside, what do you think about the Wedgedawg Applicant Rating System (WARS)? Using that calculator, I have a score of 81 and it tells me to apply to schools like Harvard and Yale even though my GPA/MCAT scores are nowhere near their medians. That’s probably not accurate, right?

Thank you, Goro 🙂

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[mellocellofello]

Hi Goro, I’m currently in the midst of reinvention and need some advice. I graduated college in 2017. In college I lacked motivation and maturity and did not do well in my science classes. Here are a list of my BCPM grades from college (quarter system):

Freshman:
Gen Chem 1A: C
Majors Gen Chem Lab 1: A-
Precalc: C

Gen Chem 1B: F
Majors Gen Chem Lab 2: C
Calculus 1: F

Gen Chem 1B: D
Calculus 1: D+

Junior:
Biology of Cancer: A-

Senior:
Calculus 2: F
Biology of the Brain: A

Calculus 2: F

Calculus 2: C-

Aside from those BCPM classes listed, I received all As and Bs, including As in all other classes I took freshman year. What really worries me are my senior year grades. I took Calc 2 because it was required for my major (public health) but definitely waited too long after I took Calc 1. I also didn’t try as hard as I should have because I wasn’t planning on going to med school.

After having spent a couple years out of undergrad I’ve become more focused and am ready to do what I need to get into med school. I’m doing a DIY post bac at a local CC (local university is too expensive and does not offer night classes) and have a 4.0 so far. I plan to finish my prereqs through o chem at the CC then take a biochem class at my local university that is held in the evenings. I’m also working full-time in non-clinical research and will begin volunteering at a free clinic soon. By the time I apply, I hope to have around 150 hours of volunteer clinical experience. I also have around 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering working with first-generation immigrant kids during undergrad and during a year a spent teaching English in France.

My question is if I do well on the rest of my post bac classes and the MCAT, what are my chances at DO and MD schools. Have my senior year grades ruined my MD chances?

 

[Goro]

My cGPA from undergrad is a 3.39 (graduated in 2014 with a Bio major from a T20 school) and I decided that I wanted to go to med school while doing a research Masters (3.9, not SMP - totally understand that this doesn’t count on AMCAS) and am currently in a postbacc (4.0 with 40 units). My total GPA should be around 3.54 after the postbacc. My undergrad science GPA is a 2.93 and should be a 3.37 after the postbacc classes.

A 4.0 post-bac GPA with 40 credits definitely is reinvention in my book

Columbia, Duke, UCSF, Vandy, Pitt, Mayo, and Case have median MCAT scores of 518-520. Is it worth it to apply to them if I have a score of 515? Most advice threads say to apply to schools where the median is close to your MCAT score.

I recommend Case, Duke, Pitt, UCSF and maybe Mayo (the latter is very quirky). Your MCAT is > these school's 25th %ile, IIRC, and hence, you're in striking distance. For Vandy and Columbia I recommend higher scores, as the former is definitely an MCAT *****.


Furthermore, Tulane, GWU, Drexel, Albany, NYMC, Loyola, Tufts, Emory, Gtown are all consider “Low Yield” because they get over 10k applicants a year. How much luck have reinventor students had getting into these schools?
They may get a gazillion apps, but keep in mind that may of these are from people with low stats and poor advising. They are all schools that have a track record of rewarding reinvention. They pop up over and over when I ask reinventors where they got IIs and accepts. You can also see this in MSAR with the #s of their matriculants who have post-bacs or graduate degrees.

While I think my ECs, volunteering, research, publications, shadowing, LoRs, and story are all solid, I am quite nervous about my numbers.
This is why you need DO schools on your list

A quick aside, what do you think about the Wedgedawg Applicant Rating System (WARS)? Using that calculator, I have a score of 81 and it tells me to apply to schools like Harvard and Yale even though my GPA/MCAT scores are nowhere near their medians. That’s probably not accurate, right?

Like anything else, it's a rule of thumb, but my belief is that it's a bit too optimistic. Many of the really Top Schools do not seem to reward reinvention, mainly because they have a slew of applicants who never needed it. Their loss though.

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro, for someone currently in a career change post-bacc with a less-than-stellar GPA (nailing everything so far though), how many upper division courses do you recommend one takes? I can realistic take 2 upper division biochems, 2-3 upper division bio courses, and 1 online pathophysiology course (all that's offered for non-degree students); these would be on top of all the prerequisites, all of which I'm taking for the first time.

Total unit count would be ~70 science units over 2 years (1/4 of which has been completed): 37 prereqs, 12 at a CC (Anato, Physio, Micro), ~21-22 UD's.

Would you say this is sufficient in terms of upper division coursework, or should I try to add some more? Thanks for your help.

Yes, this will be fine!!

Hi Goro, I’m currently in the midst of reinvention and need some advice. I graduated college in 2017. In college I lacked motivation and maturity and did not do well in my science classes. Here are a list of my BCPM grades from college (quarter system):

Freshman:
Gen Chem 1A: C
Majors Gen Chem Lab 1: A-
Precalc: C

Gen Chem 1B: F
Majors Gen Chem Lab 2: C
Calculus 1: F

Gen Chem 1B: D
Calculus 1: D+

Junior:
Biology of Cancer: A-

Senior:
Calculus 2: F
Biology of the Brain: A

Calculus 2: F

Calculus 2: C-

Aside from those BCPM classes listed, I received all As and Bs, including As in all other classes I took freshman year. What really worries me are my senior year grades. I took Calc 2 because it was required for my major (public health) but definitely waited too long after I took Calc 1. I also didn’t try as hard as I should have because I wasn’t planning on going to med school.

After having spent a couple years out of undergrad I’ve become more focused and am ready to do what I need to get into med school. I’m doing a DIY post bac at a local CC (local university is too expensive and does not offer night classes) and have a 4.0 so far. I plan to finish my prereqs through o chem at the CC then take a biochem class at my local university that is held in the evenings. I’m also working full-time in non-clinical research and will begin volunteering at a free clinic soon. By the time I apply, I hope to have around 150 hours of volunteer clinical experience. I also have around 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering working with first-generation immigrant kids during undergrad and during a year a spent teaching English in France.

My question is if I do well on the rest of my post bac classes and the MCAT, what are my chances at DO and MD schools. Have my senior year grades ruined my MD chances?

Do well in post-bac and MCAT and yes, MD is possible. As the service loving schools are more rewarding to reinventors, bone up on service to others less fortunate than yourself.

 

[mellocellofello]

Do well in post-bac and MCAT and yes, MD is possible. As the service loving schools are more rewarding to reinventors, bone up on service to others less fortunate than yourself.

Thank you Goro! I will be sure to focus on that aspect.

 

[Goro]

@Goro, after following your guide I'm wrapping up a 3-semester postbacc as a full-time student for all 3 semesters (40+ units); I had 30+ units last year, but I needed the extra semester to safely get over the 3.0 mark for my sgpa and figured I'd just go full-time again. I'll be transitioning to starting a full-time clinical job and upping my volunteering now that my classes will be over in a couple weeks, but I noticed earlier that you recommend two classes each semester for one working full-time and doing a postbacc - in my case, do you think it'd be ok to only take 1 more class or perhaps not take any more? My gpa barely budges with additional coursework (difference of ~0.03 with each additional class), and I'll be keeping myself busy with full-time work, continuing volunteering, mcat prep (if need be, i'm signed up for january), and preparing to apply for the upcoming cycle. Thank you so much again and Happy early Thanksgiving!

I think that you will be fine!!!

 

[pizza pizza]

Special thanks to Goro and his selfless commitment to guiding premeds through this process. It is a daunting, uphill climb for students with lower stats and it means everything to have an adcom continually advise posters and answer the endless stream of questions. Not only does he provide advice but quality, personalized advice at that! We should all be immensely thankful.
- Accepted MD reinventor

 

[Doctoscope]

Special thanks to Goro and his selfless commitment to guiding premeds through this process. It is a daunting, uphill climb for students with lower stats and it means everything to have an adcom continually advise posters and answer the endless stream of questions. Not only does he provide advice but quality, personalized advice at that! We should all be immensely thankful.
- Accepted MD reinventor

Congrats! Do you mind sharing your story? What classes you took, final GPA, etc.

 

[pizza pizza]

Congrats! Do you mind sharing your story? What classes you took, final GPA, etc.

Thanks! You can see my stats and school list here (I added a few schools after, mostly because my SO was applying to them). I was certainly not an extreme case, but a borderline MD candidate. I mostly just had poor study habits & time management during undergrad, no other adversity per se.

I applied with 19 PB credits and sent an update after completing 11 additional credits during the summer.

 

[DrMowMow]

My cGPA from undergrad is a 3.39 (graduated in 2014 with a Bio major from a T20 school) and I decided that I wanted to go to med school while doing a research Masters (3.9, not SMP - totally understand that this doesn’t count on AMCAS) and am currently in a postbacc (4.0 with 40 units). My total GPA should be around 3.54 after the postbacc. My undergrad science GPA is a 2.93 and should be a 3.37 after the postbacc classes.

A 4.0 post-bac GPA with 40 credits definitely is reinvention in my book

Columbia, Duke, UCSF, Vandy, Pitt, Mayo, and Case have median MCAT scores of 518-520. Is it worth it to apply to them if I have a score of 515? Most advice threads say to apply to schools where the median is close to your MCAT score.

I recommend Case, Duke, Pitt, UCSF and maybe Mayo (the latter is very quirky). Your MCAT is > these school's 25th %ile, IIRC, and hence, you're in striking distance. For Vandy and Columbia I recommend higher scores, as the former is definitely an MCAT *****.


Furthermore, Tulane, GWU, Drexel, Albany, NYMC, Loyola, Tufts, Emory, Gtown are all consider “Low Yield” because they get over 10k applicants a year. How much luck have reinventor students had getting into these schools?
They may get a gazillion apps, but keep in mind that may of these are from people with low stats and poor advising. They are all schools that have a track record of rewarding reinvention. They pop up over and over when I ask reinventors where they got IIs and accepts. You can also see this in MSAR with the #s of their matriculants who have post-bacs or graduate degrees.

While I think my ECs, volunteering, research, publications, shadowing, LoRs, and story are all solid, I am quite nervous about my numbers.
This is why you need DO schools on your list

A quick aside, what do you think about the Wedgedawg Applicant Rating System (WARS)? Using that calculator, I have a score of 81 and it tells me to apply to schools like Harvard and Yale even though my GPA/MCAT scores are nowhere near their medians. That’s probably not accurate, right?

Like anything else, it's a rule of thumb, but my belief is that it's a bit too optimistic. Many of the really Top Schools do not seem to reward reinvention, mainly because they have a slew of applicants who never needed it. Their loss though.

Thank you, Goro!!! I really appreciate the advice. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[L8rg8r]

2.92 cGPA and 2.72 sGPA, finishing my pre-reqs this semester as a post-bacc non-trad.

Went to advising at my school and they said I should take full-time upper level science courses (I'm currently running a business while doing research and volunteering at a heath clinic) to demonstrate that I can handle a medical school curriculum since I've only been taking 2 classes per semester. They also said I should do a masters program before I apply since my goal is to get into UCF, which apparently factors in graduate GPA.

After calculations, 30+ hours of additional undergrad science courses will only bump my GPA up to 3.1 (I already have 150+ credits under my belt).

Should I continue taking upper-level undergrad courses or should I take a master's program to get a 4.0?

 

[Goro]

2.92 cGPA and 2.72 sGPA, finishing my pre-reqs this semester as a post-bacc non-trad.

Went to advising at my school and they said I should take full-time upper level science courses (I'm currently running a business while doing research and volunteering at a heath clinic) to demonstrate that I can handle a medical school curriculum since I've only been taking 2 classes per semester. They also said I should do a masters program before I apply since my goal is to get into UCF, which apparently factors in graduate GPA.

After calculations, 30+ hours of additional undergrad science courses will only bump my GPA up to 3.1 (I already have 150+ credits under my belt).

Should I continue taking upper-level undergrad courses or should I take a master's program to get a 4.0?

I recommend either an SMP, not research MS. despite UCF's policy, you can't bank on only applying there and being successful. Either that, or trying to take more upper level classes. I understand needing to work, but you can drop the research..its importance to pre-meds is over-rated.

It's no longer about raising the GPA...it's about showing that the you of k=now is not the you of then.

 

[Alex1998]

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

Does it matter how competitive the 4 year University you choose to go to for your DIY is?

 

[Goro]

Does it matter how competitive the 4 year University you choose to go to for your DIY is?

Nope.

 

[nrez]

Hi Goro, this is my first ever post on SDN (yay) and I'm hoping you can help me out with some advice!

I graduated from a Top 30 university in May of 2019 with a BA in Health Policy, 2.9 sGPA and 3.55 cGPA. I had a heavy course load and a lot of distractions during my sophomore year where my sGPA tanked, unfortunately. I have an upward trend with a sGPA of 3.5--> 4.0 over my junior and senior years. I'm now taking a bunch of upper-level division biology courses before I hopefully apply in 2020. After this past quarter, my sGPA stands at 3.0 after acing both of my courses. I will hopefully get to a sGPA of 3.3 with a cGPA of 3.6+ by the time the application cycle opens, which will be a total of ~30 credits (on quarter system) of postbacc classes. My MCAT is a 511 (except I tanked the BB section and got a 125, sigh). I'm currently working as a Spanish Interpreter at a volunteer-run health clinic that serves the uninsured during my gap year, have a publication and plenty of clinical research and exposure experiences.

My main question is, do you think I have a shot at MD programs for the 2020 cycle or should I take an additional year of postbacc classes? I've received conflicting answers from multiple advisors. I"m not sure if there is a specific # of credits I should aim for or a certain threshold to bring my sGPA to before applying. If you do think I have a shot, do you have a school list you would recommend?

Thank you so much!!

 

[Dr panda]

Hi Goro, this is my first ever post on SDN (yay) and I'm hoping you can help me out with some advice!

I graduated from a Top 30 university in May of 2019 with a BA in Health Policy, 2.9 sGPA and 3.55 cGPA. I had a heavy course load and a lot of distractions during my sophomore year where my sGPA tanked, unfortunately. I have an upward trend with a sGPA of 3.5--> 4.0 over my junior and senior years. I'm now taking a bunch of upper-level division biology courses before I hopefully apply in 2020. After this past quarter, my sGPA stands at 3.0 after acing both of my courses. I will hopefully get to a sGPA of 3.3 with a cGPA of 3.6+ by the time the application cycle opens, which will be a total of ~30 credits (on quarter system) of postbacc classes. My MCAT is a 511 (except I tanked the BB section and got a 125, sigh). I'm currently working as a Spanish Interpreter at a volunteer-run health clinic that serves the uninsured during my gap year, have a publication and plenty of clinical research and exposure experiences.

My main question is, do you think I have a shot at MD programs for the 2020 cycle or should I take an additional year of postbacc classes? I've received conflicting answers from multiple advisors. I"m not sure if there is a specific # of credits I should aim for or a certain threshold to bring my sGPA to before applying. If you do think I have a shot, do you have a school list you would recommend?

Thank you so much!!

Where is your state of residency?

 

[nrez]

Where is your state of residency?

IL resident!

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro, this is my first ever post on SDN (yay) and I'm hoping you can help me out with some advice!

I graduated from a Top 30 university in May of 2019 with a BA in Health Policy, 2.9 sGPA and 3.55 cGPA. I had a heavy course load and a lot of distractions during my sophomore year where my sGPA tanked, unfortunately. I have an upward trend with a sGPA of 3.5--> 4.0 over my junior and senior years. I'm now taking a bunch of upper-level division biology courses before I hopefully apply in 2020. After this past quarter, my sGPA stands at 3.0 after acing both of my courses. I will hopefully get to a sGPA of 3.3 with a cGPA of 3.6+ by the time the application cycle opens, which will be a total of ~30 credits (on quarter system) of postbacc classes. My MCAT is a 511 (except I tanked the BB section and got a 125, sigh). I'm currently working as a Spanish Interpreter at a volunteer-run health clinic that serves the uninsured during my gap year, have a publication and plenty of clinical research and exposure experiences.

My main question is, do you think I have a shot at MD programs for the 2020 cycle or should I take an additional year of postbacc classes? I've received conflicting answers from multiple advisors. I"m not sure if there is a specific # of credits I should aim for or a certain threshold to bring my sGPA to before applying. If you do think I have a shot, do you have a school list you would recommend?

Thank you so much!!

Chances best with U ILL and SIU IF you're from Southern ILL. The MCAT is weak (especially with a 125 Bio score) compared to SDNers who successfully reinvented. Bone up on more service to others less fortunate than yourself and also target Loyola, Rosy F and Rush.

 

[nrez]

Chances best with U ILL and SIU IF you're from Southern ILL. The MCAT is weak (especially with a 125 Bio score) compared to SDNers who successfully reinvented. Bone up on more service to others less fortunate than yourself and also target Loyola, Rosy F and Rush.

I agree, I'm trying to get as many volunteer hours as I can this year. Do you suggest I should retake my MCAT? The 125 was a very unfortunate fluke compared to my practice exams... but I'm worried it will significantly hinder my chances of an MD acceptance. The 511 is also my second time taking it. I'm open to DO programs as well, but MD is my main goal.

 

[Goro]

I agree, I'm trying to get as many volunteer hours as I can this year. Do you suggest I should retake my MCAT? The 125 was a very unfortunate fluke compared to my practice exams... but I'm worried it will significantly hinder my chances of an MD acceptance. The 511 is also my second time taking it. I'm open to DO programs as well, but MD is my main goal.

If you're boning for the MD, then a retake with a score of > 513 is in order.

 

[nrez]

If you're boning for the MD, then a retake with a score of > 513 is in order.

I see, okay thank you so much!

 

[deleted962263]

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Histology
Immunology
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!

I'm sorry, I have a genuinely stupid question. Say I do a DIY postbacc at a local college and get good grades throughout, however my overall transcript has bad grades from the past, will med schools realize which part of my transcript was the postbacc?

 

[Goro]

I'm sorry, I have a genuinely stupid question. Say I do a DIY postbacc at a local college and get good grades throughout, however my overall transcript has bad grades from the past, will med schools realize which part of my transcript was the postbacc?

Yes. We see your progress year by year

 

[bjt223]

Hello @Goro , I have one more question about course expiration. There are some pre-requistes classes such as general chemistry and biology that I took at Community college over 10 years with C's. I was wondering if there's course expiration among medical schools. If so, would you recommend us to retake it? Thank you.

 

[Goro]

Hello @Goro , I have one more question about course expiration. There are some pre-requistes classes such as general chemistry and biology that I took at Community college over 10 years with C's. I was wondering if there's course expiration among medical schools. If so, would you recommend us to retake it? Thank you.

School specific. My rule of thumb is that a retake should be done if it will help you on MCAT.

 

[L8rg8r]

Can anyone tell me which courses I should keep/drop for next semester, considering that I will be taking the MCAT in the spring?

Genetics
Physiology (with lab)
Neurobiology
Medical Terminology (online)

Also doing volunteering and work at a research lab.

 

[Goro]

Can anyone tell me which courses I should keep/drop for next semester, considering that I will be taking the MCAT in the spring?

Genetics
Physiology (with lab)
Neurobiology
Medical Terminology (online)

Also doing volunteering and work at a research lab.

Dump this one: Medical Terminology (online)

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro,

I just wanted your opinion on my overall grade trends. I'm a current University of Washington, Seattle student and had trouble with grades due to studying issues, immaturity, and lack of time management. I think that I've turned it around but I wanted your opinion. Most, if not all, of my prereq courses are mostly B's with some C's but I've been acing all of my upper-division classes (e.g. Medical Physiology, Neurobiology, Immunology, etc). I know that I'm not in the 3.7 range that you suggested, but I've had quite a change in my sGPA.

What are your thoughts on doing better in upper-level science classes? Does it show that I've at least understood the basic sciences?

Side Note: I have been getting in the 515-16's on my AAMC practice MCATs, I don't know if that shows anything.

Freshmen Year: 2.94 cGPA/ 2.62 sGPA
Sophmore: 3.2 cGPA/ 2.8 sGPA
Junior: 3.24 cGPA/ 2.99 sGPA
Senior: 3.63 cGPA/ 3.5 sGPA
DIY Post Bac (first Quarter): 3.68 cGPA and sGPA

How many semester hours SR year and in post-bac? trend looks good.

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro,

I'm on the quarter system actually but here's a break down of the Quarter credits and I've done the conversion to Semester credits in parentheses.

Senior: 42 Quarter credits (28 Semester Credits)
DIY Post bac [Fall only]: 16 Quarter credits (10.67 Semester Credits)

I'm scheduled to take another 16 Quarter credits Winter Quarter and finish off my last quarter with ~12 Quarter credits. So I'd total at ~29-30 Semester Credits for my DIY post bac year. I'm hoping that these 2 years will be enough to show that I've really turned myself around.

I am pursuing the MD route and plan to apply broadly. I guess I'm also worried and totally confused about how to come up with a school list from the MSAR. I've read that I should make the list based off of my last 2-3 years GPAs since I'm a reinventor? I'll be adding most, if not all, the schools you've listed as schools that reward/value reinvention.

I'm a California Resident but may change to my state of residence to Washington since California schools tend to be difficult to get into even as a California resident I think? Plus I really would like to attend UWSOM but they pretty much only accept WWAMI region students.

As a reinventor, you will need DO schools on your list. Beggars can't be choosy.

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro,

I was definitely going to have DO schools on my list but since MD is my dream, I just wanted to get a gist of your opinion on my trends. Which it seems like I have an okay trend at least.

But in terms of making a school list for MD, how do you suggest I sift through the MSAR? My cGPA and sGPA falls below the 10th Percentile for pretty much all schools.

Impossible to answer without an MCAT score.

And you don't use MSAR, you use the list of reinvention rewarding schools that I use. Your state schools will be at the top of the list

 

[bjt223]

Hey @Goro , does a 3.6 gpa vs. 3.7gpa in postbacc made a big difference for medical school if we’re trying to reinvent ourselves?

 

[Goro]

Hey @Goro , does a 3.6 gpa vs. 3.7gpa in postbacc made a big difference for medical school if we’re trying to reinvent ourselves?

I think that it does for MD. Remember, 3.6 is 0.1 basis points below the median. for MD acceptees. For DO, it's fine.

 

[LeSamf]

Hey Goro,
I talked to you a while back in July. I'm currently in the process of reinventing myself. Happy to say that I aced my last semester having taken 15 credits of biology and math with a 4.0. I am currently in need of 2 classes in order to graduate, physics 2 and genetics. However, I am planning on taking 12-15 credits over the next two semesters in order to get my sgpa over the 3.0 line. Now, assuming I ace those semesters, too, do you think this has been enough to invent myself or should I also consider a post bacc for MD?

My plans are to do NOTHING but study for the mcat during the summer and get in more shadowing/volunteering.

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro,
I talked to you a while back in July. I'm currently in the process of reinventing myself. Happy to say that I aced my last semester having taken 15 credits of biology and math with a 4.0. I am currently in need of 2 classes in order to graduate, physics 2 and genetics. However, I am planning on taking 12-15 credits over the next two semesters in order to get my sgpa over the 3.0 line. Now, assuming I ace those semesters, too, do you think this has been enough to invent myself or should I also consider a post bacc for MD?

My plans are to do NOTHING but study for the mcat during the summer and get in more shadowing/volunteering.

Unless you're working, I'd prefer to see 12-15 credits done ina single semester to demonstrate that you can handle a rigorous curriculm.

If working, just do the best you can.

A total of ~30 hrs should do the trick for you.

then try an app cycle, but also apply to SMPs at the same time as a back up.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Unless you're working, I'd prefer to see 12-15 credits done ina single semester to demonstrate that you can handle a rigorous curriculm.

If working, just do the best you can.

A total of ~30 hrs should do the trick for you.

then try an app cycle, but also apply to SMPs at the same time as a back up.

If I may piggyback off this comment... How many graduate hours per semester? I took 11 last semester in a Master's in Biological Science(Made all As). Not really an SMP, it's a non-thesis master's that provides a committee letter if we meet certain criteria. I'd like to only take 9 hours this Spring because I have volunteering, teaching lab, and studying for my May MCAT.

 

[LeSamf]

Unless you're working, I'd prefer to see 12-15 credits done ina single semester to demonstrate that you can handle a rigorous curriculm.

If working, just do the best you can.

A total of ~30 hrs should do the trick for you.

then try an app cycle, but also apply to SMPs at the same time as a back up.

Oh I see I wasn't very clear there. I meant I will be taking 12-15 hours per semester for the next two-three semesters.

Since we're on the topic of work experience, I have ~ 6000 hours at a local hospital working as an emergency room and float tech (from when I was considering nursing). The most positive thing I can say about the experience is that it has allowed me to meet many a lot of doctors who have agreed to let me shadow them. I was wondering if this job will be viewed in a positive light if I can spin it as time spent learning the ins and outs of the hospital?

 

[Goro]

Oh I see I wasn't very clear there. I meant I will be taking 12-15 hours per semester for the next two-three semesters.

Since we're on the topic of work experience, I have ~ 6000 hours at a local hospital working as an emergency room and float tech (from when I was considering nursing). The most positive thing I can say about the experience is that it has allowed me to meet many a lot of doctors who have agreed to let me shadow them. I was wondering if this job will be viewed in a positive light if I can spin it as time spent learning the ins and outs of the hospital?

All sound perfect!!!

 

[Med-School-Hopeful-90]

May I ask a question? I apologize if this is the incorrect thread. I am new to this particular forum...I have a bachelors from Texas Tech and recieved a 2.48 GPA from classes taken there (medical related-doctors letters and proof is available for the poor grades). With classes transferred in from my local community college, my overall is a 3.2 but they do not count transferred classes into the G.P.A which is understandable. With that being said, I was recently accepted into a biochemistry program to do all of the prereqs needed for med school (I haven’t taken any yet) and in finishing them, I will gain another bachelors. I am now wondering if that is the best choice? I am almost done with a masters degree as well (3.9), but it does not correlate to science in any way. I’ve looked into my local four year colleges, and they do not accept students who are non degree seeking nor who are obtaining a second bachelors. Cost wise, in-state would be better but as it stands now, I’m accepted out of state with summer cohorts. If I were to take classes at my local CC, would it hurt my chances? I would like a D.O school if possible, but I am open to either. I have hundreds of hours in EC already, and plan on doing more over my time with prereqs. I’ve not taken the MCAT yet, and plan on doing so when I feel more prepared. I’ve been diligent in studying and making sure I understand content first

 

[Goro]

May I ask a question? I apologize if this is the incorrect thread. I am new to this particular forum...I have a bachelors from Texas Tech and recieved a 2.48 GPA from classes taken there (medical related-doctors letters and proof is available for the poor grades). With classes transferred in from my local community college, my overall is a 3.2 but they do not count transferred classes into the G.P.A which is understandable. With that being said, I was recently accepted into a biochemistry program to do all of the prereqs needed for med school (I haven’t taken any yet) and in finishing them, I will gain another bachelors. I am now wondering if that is the best choice? I am almost done with a masters degree as well (3.9), but it does not correlate to science in any way. I’ve looked into my local four year colleges, and they do not accept students who are non degree seeking nor who are obtaining a second bachelors. Cost wise, in-state would be better but as it stands now, I’m accepted out of state with summer cohorts. If I were to take classes at my local CC, would it hurt my chances? I would like a D.O school if possible, but I am open to either. I have hundreds of hours in EC already, and plan on doing more over my time with prereqs. I’ve not taken the MCAT yet, and plan on doing so when I feel more prepared. I’ve been diligent in studying and making sure I understand content first

it will be okay to take horses a community colleges. But it will still look better if you can do them at a four-year college.

Your GPA is not calculated by your colleges, it is calculated by AM AS and AACOMAS.

You don't need another bachelor's degree. 2 years of solid academic performance should do the trick for you

 

[mistertwister]

Hello @Goro ,

This is my first post on the site, let me just thank you for answering so many questions and writing informative guides. Reading and knowing there could be a chance has brought a lot of comfort to me personally.

I just graduated with a bachelors in Biochemistry and currently have a 2.94 cGPA & 2.6 sGPA. My trend is first 3 years horrible, last year of undergrad 3.9 over 28 credits.

I'm planning to take 12 credits a semester in my DIY post bacc doing ECs and research on the side. After 1 semester of straight As, I'll have 3.02 cGPA and 2.75 sGPA.

What I'm curious about here is whether I should keep going with my post bacc after the first semester or switch gears to an SMP. My understanding is that its the cGPA which needs to be 3.0 for most SMPs.

Would I benefit more from an SMP? Or should I continue with my post bacc, and if so, for how long? Am I trying to get my sGPA to 3.0 which would take a total of 2 years of post bacc, or just trying to show that I was able to handle a year or more of hard sciences? How many credits should I be aiming for to say "look, this is proof of reinvention!"

Lastly wrt to the MCAT, when do post baccs tend to study for and take it? During the semesters or post post bac? Does it look better to take the MCAT during your studies or is there no harm in waiting?

Thanks so much for your time and expertise.

 

[Goro]

This is my first post on the site, let me just thank you for answering so many questions and writing informative guides. Reading and knowing there could be a chance has brought a lot of comfort to me personally.

Many thanks for the kind words. Love the screen name!

I'm planning to take 12 credits a semester in my DIY post bacc doing ECs and research on the side. After 1 semester of straight As, I'll have 3.02 cGPA and 2.75 sGPA.

What I'm curious about here is whether I should keep going with my post bacc after the first semester or switch gears to an SMP. My understanding is that its the cGPA which needs to be 3.0 for most SMPs.

This may depend upon which SMP you wish to target. If relocating is an option, so that you can attend a SMP without the additional semester, that could save you a year int he process and thus, a year of attending's salary.


Would I benefit more from an SMP? Or should I continue with my post bacc, and if so, for how long? Am I trying to get my sGPA to 3.0 which would take a total of 2 years of post bacc, or just trying to show that I was able to handle a year or more of hard sciences? How many credits should I be aiming for to say "look, this is proof of reinvention!"

Generally, I've seen SDNers have a decent share of success after a single year of DIY post-bac, but keep in mind that they also have good MCAT scores and ECs. Students in my school's SMp tend to have at least a semester of post-bac, which has me favor them when it comes to our SMP admissions. I like seeing a rising GPA trend.

Lastly wrt to the MCAT, when do post baccs tend to study for and take it? During the semesters or post post bac?

Do it either before or after the post=bac/SMP, but NEVER during

Write the MCAT? Are you Canadian?

Does it look better to take the MCAT during your studies or is there no harm in waiting?

There is no harm in waiting. No one on my Adcom has ever said "oh look, this kid did well on MCAT during his/her SMP!"
In fact. we have learned from bitter experience that people who take the MCAT during the SMP not only do poorly on the MCAYT, but also in the SMP!

 

[chicandtoughness]

Lastly wrt to the MCAT, when do post baccs tend to study for and take it? During the semesters or post post bac?

Write the MCAT? Are you Canadian?

Looks like he was trying to say "with respect to" (wrt).

 

[mistertwister]

This is my first post on the site, let me just thank you for answering so many questions and writing informative guides. Reading and knowing there could be a chance has brought a lot of comfort to me personally.

Many thanks for the kind words. Love the screen name!

I'm planning to take 12 credits a semester in my DIY post bacc doing ECs and research on the side. After 1 semester of straight As, I'll have 3.02 cGPA and 2.75 sGPA.

What I'm curious about here is whether I should keep going with my post bacc after the first semester or switch gears to an SMP. My understanding is that its the cGPA which needs to be 3.0 for most SMPs.

This may depend upon which SMP you wish to target. If relocating is an option, so that you can attend a SMP without the additional semester, that could save you a year int he process and thus, a year of attending's salary.


Would I benefit more from an SMP? Or should I continue with my post bacc, and if so, for how long? Am I trying to get my sGPA to 3.0 which would take a total of 2 years of post bacc, or just trying to show that I was able to handle a year or more of hard sciences? How many credits should I be aiming for to say "look, this is proof of reinvention!"

Generally, I've seen SDNers have a decent share of success after a single year of DIY post-bac, but keep in mind that they also have good MCAT scores and ECs. Students in my school's SMp tend to have at least a semester of post-bac, which has me favor them when it comes to our SMP admissions. I like seeing a rising GPA trend.

Lastly wrt to the MCAT, when do post baccs tend to study for and take it? During the semesters or post post bac?

Do it either before or after the post=bac/SMP, but NEVER during

Write the MCAT? Are you Canadian?

Does it look better to take the MCAT during your studies or is there no harm in waiting?

There is no harm in waiting. No one on my Adcom has ever said "oh look, this kid did well on MCAT during his/her SMP!"
In fact. we have learned from bitter experience that people who take the MCAT during the SMP not only do poorly on the MCAYT, but also in the SMP!

Thanks for the prompt reply! I think I have a preliminary idea of what to do. Does this make sense?

1. Study for MCAT from now till fall 2020. Take MCAT before fall semester. Reevaluate life choices if I get a bad MCAT score.
2. If MCAT is good I start my two semester post-bacc in fall 2020 to fall 2021.
3. From now till fall 2021 I also do research and volunteering on the side.
4. Apply to med school sometime in fall 2021. Or before? I remember reading something about applying early but how does that work if my post-bacc isn't finished?

For the year of post-bacc do I need to do 15 credits a semester or is 12 ok? And yeah "wrt" was "with regard to." I'm from NY. Thanks again!

 

[Goro]

1. Study for MCAT from now till fall 2020. Take MCAT before fall semester. Reevaluate life choices if I get a bad MCAT score.
2. If MCAT is good I start my two semester post-bacc in fall 2020 to fall 2021.
3. From now till fall 2021 I also do research and volunteering on the side.
4. Apply to med school sometime in fall 2021. Or before? I remember reading something about applying early but how does that work if my post-bacc isn't finished?

For the year of post-bacc do I need to do 15 credits a semester or is 12 ok? And yeah "wrt" was "with regard to." I'm from NY. Thanks again!
Sounds like a good schedule.

I'd prefer 15 credits, but if working is a requirement, then 12-15 is better.

Research is overrated by pre-meds; I suggest that as a non-trad student, you bone up on clinical exposure and service to others less fortunate than yourself.


"Applying early" is an MD cycle catchphrase. This means apply from June through mid-Sept. The SUNYs will cut you a little more slack time-wise. And as a non-trad, you have to have DO schools on the list, and their cycle is longer, so you have until T-giving to do that.

You apply when you have the best possible app, even if it means skipping a cycle.

 

[mistertwister]

1. Study for MCAT from now till fall 2020. Take MCAT before fall semester. Reevaluate life choices if I get a bad MCAT score.
2. If MCAT is good I start my two semester post-bacc in fall 2020 to fall 2021.
3. From now till fall 2021 I also do research and volunteering on the side.
4. Apply to med school sometime in fall 2021. Or before? I remember reading something about applying early but how does that work if my post-bacc isn't finished?

For the year of post-bacc do I need to do 15 credits a semester or is 12 ok? And yeah "wrt" was "with regard to." I'm from NY. Thanks again!
Sounds like a good schedule.

I'd prefer 15 credits, but if working is a requirement, then 12-15 is better.

Research is overrated by pre-meds; I suggest that as a non-trad student, you bone up on clinical exposure and service to others less fortunate than yourself.


"Applying early" is an MD cycle catchphrase. This means apply from June through mid-Sept. The SUNYs will cut you a little more slack time-wise. And as a non-trad, you have to have DO schools on the list, and their cycle is longer, so you have until T-giving to do that.

You apply when you have the best possible app, even if it means skipping a cycle.

Thank you Goro! Your advice has been illuminating.

I've read that research is overrated but its a topic so interesting that I would kick myself if I didn't at least try it. And if the MCAT doesn't work out I will likely fall back on research haha. Thanks for the detailed explanation on application timeframes.

 

[Geo16]

Goro, how do you think about second bachelor vs post-bacc program?
The advantage of Second Bachelor in Biology or health science: I am able to take upper division bio courses.
Also, I'll be eligible for financial aid. Just thinking about this option for awhile.

 

[Goro]

You can take upper division Bio courses in a postbac as well.

I never see the need for a 2nd bacc. Work and save up the money. You'll be ready for applying to med school faster and thus save a year or two of attending salary.

 

[Geo16]

You can take upper division Bio courses in a postbac as well.

I never see the need for a 2nd bacc. Work and save up the money. You'll be ready for applying to med school faster and thus save a year or two of attending salary.

Ah, sorry! Just poor research skills on my part.
It seems that schools like LECOM provide a post-bacc with a fin-aid. Just thought that in order to receive a financial aid, you have to work toward a certificate/degree. Loan + work (hopefully in a hospital) will be enough I hope.
Edit: just saw that most post-bacc programs are certificate based. So I don't have to worry about fin-aid after all. Phew.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Goro, how do you think about second bachelor vs post-bacc program?

You are always welcome to enroll as a 2nd bachelor student and then switch to non-degree once you get your prereqs / before finishing. It's a common thing to do if you need the financial aid.

 

[Geo16]

You are always welcome to enroll as a 2nd bachelor student and then switch to non-degree once you get your prereqs / before finishing. It's a common thing to do if you need the financial aid.

Sneaky 🙂
I like you!