Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

Applying to Med School? Get In Or Your Money Back
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OsirisPower said:
I graduated this may from a bbachelor degree program with 200+ credits. My cgpa is <2.6 and sgpa >2.6. My last 45 credits resulted in 3.5 cgpa and 3.5 sgpa which was when i became committed to medicine and reinvented myself. Took my MCAT April and scored 519. I am an AA male. Im just trying to be realistic about my stats before just wasting time and money applying next cycle 2020. I was thinking about DPMS program but I am concerned about the price. Is a post bac or SMP necessary?
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Goro said:
Nope you should apply now. Top of the list needs to be your state school and the HBCs
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Ok. Due to external factors such as my finances ill be applying next cycle. I was wondering if any, can I add some top 20 schools to my list?

Thanks.
 
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Is it fair to say I could stand to improve my application overall by getting more experience with patient contact in?
Yes

Should I put in a late application to around 6-10 medical schools this cycle and update them with my SMP grades as they come in this fall? Or am I better off just waiting until next cycle to apply to medical school when the full breadth of my performance in the SMP is available for them to look at?
Nope. By that time it will be too late. A single good semester in an SMp won't provide enough data points for reinvention anyway.


Additionally which of the three SMP programs would you judge to be the best possible choice? I've talked with the directors for all three and they all sold me pretty hard on their programs but I wanted to have a more neutral opinion since I've heard varying things about their actual reputations and pull with medical school admissions committees outside of the schools they're based out of. If it affects the calculus at all, I am a New Jersey state resident and would pay a slightly reduced rate at Rutgers.
Go with Rutgers, especially if it has some kind of linka, and is a year in length.
 
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@Goro

I am having a difficult time trying to figure out my last semester of my post-bac for this Fall. I have finished all of my prerequisite courses but yet still find myself with a 2.8 sGPA (cGPA - 3.1). No MCAT score, I will take it April 2020.

I am currently looking for science courses that I am able to take online but the problem is my institution has very little courses to offer. My current schedule is General Genetics and a public health course in Immunology. I’m not able to take courses in person due to my full-time job and the distance of my institution.

I want to create a schedule that will increase my sGPA but I don’t want to raise red flags to adcoms with taking “easy” courses.

I’m basing this off the the AACOMAS course subject list on their website:

There are plenty of online courses in Public Health, Health Sciences, Nutrition, Gerentology/Aging, Environmental Science and Aerospace Studies. They also have an online course for A&P but it says it’s for Health Professionals, such as nursing.

I’m not sure, as you can see I’m confused. I could use your assistance in finalizing my last two classes. If all goes well, my sGPA will be slightly above 3.0! Thank you!
 
acslater99 said:
@Goro

I am having a difficult time trying to figure out my last semester of my post-bac for this Fall. I have finished all of my prerequisite courses but yet still find myself with a 2.8 sGPA (cGPA - 3.1). No MCAT score, I will take it April 2020.

I am currently looking for science courses that I am able to take online but the problem is my institution has very little courses to offer. My current schedule is General Genetics and a public health course in Immunology. I’m not able to take courses in person due to my full-time job and the distance of my institution.

I want to create a schedule that will increase my sGPA but I don’t want to raise red flags to adcoms with taking “easy” courses.

I’m basing this off the the AACOMAS course subject list on their website:

There are plenty of online courses in Public Health, Health Sciences, Nutrition, Gerentology/Aging, Environmental Science and Aerospace Studies. They also have an online course for A&P but it says it’s for Health Professionals, such as nursing.

I’m not sure, as you can see I’m confused. I could use your assistance in finalizing my last two classes. If all goes well, my sGPA will be slightly above 3.0! Thank you!
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Obviously Goro will have the golden say, but in my opinion I would go with gerontology and nutrition if you are just wanting your science GPA raised for DO schools.
 
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acslater99 said:
@Goro

I am having a difficult time trying to figure out my last semester of my post-bac for this Fall. I have finished all of my prerequisite courses but yet still find myself with a 2.8 sGPA (cGPA - 3.1). No MCAT score, I will take it April 2020.

I am currently looking for science courses that I am able to take online but the problem is my institution has very little courses to offer. My current schedule is General Genetics and a public health course in Immunology. I’m not able to take courses in person due to my full-time job and the distance of my institution.

I want to create a schedule that will increase my sGPA but I don’t want to raise red flags to adcoms with taking “easy” courses.

I’m basing this off the the AACOMAS course subject list on their website:

There are plenty of online courses in Public Health, Health Sciences, Nutrition, Gerentology/Aging, Environmental Science and Aerospace Studies. They also have an online course for A&P but it says it’s for Health Professionals, such as nursing.

I’m not sure, as you can see I’m confused. I could use your assistance in finalizing my last two classes. If all goes well, my sGPA will be slightly above 3.0! Thank you!
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Pick whatever is interest to you.
 
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Goro said:
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Histology
Immunology
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!
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What if you did 4 bad years of undergrad like 10 years ago that resulted in an extremely low gpa around 2.0 but since then you have gotten significant experience in the medical field (paramedic/emt 6 years), an associates of science at 3.2, then a BS of bio at 3.55. Overall, the gpa is still really low, but the trend is really good. What would you suggest then? many years of volunteer experience and 2 years clinical research with a doctor also completed.
Do you recommend more undergrad classes to raise gpa? I've taken most science classes. Would an online masters of bio like the one through University of Florida work?
 
vtraster said:
What if you did 4 bad years of undergrad like 10 years ago that resulted in an extremely low gpa around 2.0 but since then you have gotten significant experience in the medical field (paramedic/emt 6 years), an associates of science at 3.2, then a BS of bio at 3.55. Overall, the gpa is still really low, but the trend is really good. What would you suggest then? many years of volunteer experience and 2 years clinical research with a doctor also completed.
Do you recommend more undergrad classes to raise gpa? I've taken most science classes. Would an online masters of bio like the one through University of Florida work?
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The trend is not enough, but at least it's rising. But you you really need 1-2 years at 3.7+. Forget about the ECs. You need to show that the you of now is not the you of then.

Many schools do not accept online coursework.
 
Goro said:
The trend is not enough, but at least it's rising. But you you really need 1-2 years at 3.7+. Forget about the ECs. You need to show that the you of now is not the you of then.

Many schools do not accept online coursework.
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Would a really high MCAT score be enough to offset the low gpa or is an SMP program my only chance?
 
Hey @Goro , really love this thread and your original post is super helpful. I'm entering my 5th year at UCF and scheduled to graduate in spring 2020, spent 2 1/2 years as a business major and didn't focus on school. GPA is a flat 3.0 and science gpa is around a 2.7. Upward trend but hardly, which I know is not good. I've had some health issues that made school super hard, such as having to miss exams. Those medical issues are now taken care of, however I'm worried it's almost too late to repair my gpa. I feel like the rest of my application is pretty solid. I work 2 jobs, one of them at a hospital where I have around 1200 paid clinical hours where I work in the operating room, around 200 shadowing hours and 250 volunteering hours at a retirement home. I am also starting research next spring, with plans of being published.

I have 123 credit hours under my belt, so would it be a waste of time to stay at UCF an extra year (thru spring 2021) and take some science classes, since my gpa would hardly move? Would it be smarter to try and do an SMP? I am worried my science gpa is really going to screw me, so I am not sure what the best thing to do is. I've looked at the University of Cincinnati's SMP, EVMS, USF, and a couple other schools, but unsure if it is smarter to stay at UCF an extra year, or get an SMP (or even both). I'm fine with a marathon, but I'm just not sure what the first step should be.
 
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Zacht96 said:
Hey @Goro , really love this thread and your original post is super helpful. I'm entering my 5th year at UCF and scheduled to graduate in spring 2020, spent 2 1/2 years as a business major and didn't focus on school. GPA is a flat 3.0 and science gpa is around a 2.7. Upward trend but hardly, which I know is not good. I've had some health issues that made school super hard, such as having to miss exams. Those medical issues are now taken care of, however I'm worried it's almost too late to repair my gpa. I feel like the rest of my application is pretty solid. I work 2 jobs, one of them at a hospital where I have around 1200 paid clinical hours where I work in the operating room, around 200 shadowing hours and 250 volunteering hours at a retirement home. I am also starting research next spring, with plans of being published. I scored a 517 on the MCAT.

I have 123 credit hours under my belt, so would it be a waste of time to stay at UCF an extra year (thru spring 2021) and take some science classes, since my gpa would hardly move? Would it be smarter to try and do an SMP? I am worried my science gpa is really going to screw me, so I am not sure what the best thing to do is. I've looked at the University of Cincinnati's SMP, EVMS, USF, and a couple other schools, but unsure if it is smarter to stay at UCF an extra year, or get an SMP (or even both). I'm fine with a marathon, but I'm just not sure what the first step should be.
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Its not about the GPA anymore. Get some upper level sciences aced over the course of 2-4 semesters and ace the MCAT.

Edit: GO NIGHTS
 
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Zacht96 said:
Won't my low sGPA get me screened out of like 99% of schools?
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Not 99% no. I have contacted every school I plan on applying to (50) and asked them if I will be screened a lot of schools say that they will not reject someone solely over GPA as long as they show improvement and a good MCAT. Take the time, email the schools you want to apply to when ready and go from there. Oh and dont think the MCAT will be like any regular standardized test. I am very good with standardized tests as well and this thing is ruthless.
 
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Calizboosted76 said:
Not 99% no. I have contacted every school I plan on applying to (50) and asked them if I will be screened a lot of schools say that they will not reject someone solely over GPA as long as they show improvement and a good MCAT. Take the time, email the schools you want to apply to when ready and go from there. Oh and dont think the MCAT will be like any regular standardized test. I am very good with standardized tests as well and this thing is ruthless.
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I'm actually excited to take the MCAT in spring. I feel like it will give me a chance to show schools that my low gpa doesn't show who I am. I work around 40 hours a week, seen hundreds of different surgeries while working, and I've had two open heart surgeries on myself - I have a history and story to tell admissions officers but I just need to worm my way into an interview! My only concern is that I have 123 credit hours and a flat 3.0 gpa. Even if I stay in undergrad until 2021, making it so I have 2 more years, I'm not sure that I can make a true dent in my gpa. Wouldn't an SMP stick out more? Now that I'm healthy I'm confident I can do well. I have no issue with going to a DO school, I honestly just want to be an ENT (which is going to be another battle for that residency), and I'll do whatever it takes.
 
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Zacht96 said:
I'm actually excited to take the MCAT in spring. I feel like it will give me a chance to show schools that my low gpa doesn't show who I am. I work around 40 hours a week, seen hundreds of different surgeries while working, and I've had two open heart surgeries on myself - I have a history and story to tell admissions officers but I just need to worm my way into an interview! My only concern is that I have 123 credit hours and a flat 3.0 gpa. Even if I stay in undergrad until 2021, making it so I have 2 more years, I'm not sure that I can make a true dent in my gpa. Wouldn't an SMP stick out more? Now that I'm healthy I'm confident I can do well. I have no issue with going to a DO school, I honestly just want to be an ENT (which is going to be another battle for that residency), and I'll do whatever it takes.
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Again, it’s not about your GPA anymore. If you’d like to do the SMP go for it. What does the trend look like in your GPA?
 
Calizboosted76 said:
Again, it’s not about your GPA anymore. If you’d like to do the SMP go for it. What does the trend look like in your GPA?
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It's been up and down. It was low, like a 2.5 for several semesters as a business major. Switched to biomedical sciences and started taking science courses but then had a couple surgeries and the recovery time made it hard to focus on school. Never got below a C in any class, but I have way too many B's and C's. I've had to miss more exams than I can count on, which to me makes it amazing that I haven't failed a class, however medical schools won't care about that. It's a slight upward trend now that I'm healthy, but last semester was my first good one in awhile. Still have Physics 2, Organic 2, and Biochem left so I'm optimistic. But I'm thinking I may need to stay an extra year AND do an SMP, as I want to get into a solid medical school because I have dreams of matching into otolaryngology, which isn't exactly easy.
 
@Goro can i ask for your take on completing a SMP at a DO school? or is it better to attend a SMP program at well known programs to really up your chances? my stats are cgpa 2.91 and sgpa is around 2.7 no MCAT yet (planning to take next summer)
 
naoise151 said:
@Goro can i ask for your take on completing a SMP at a DO school? or is it better to attend a SMP program at well known programs to really up your chances? my stats are cgpa 2.91 and sgpa is around 2.7 no MCAT yet (planning to take next summer)
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It doesn't matter. Kids from my SMP have gone on to MD schools.
 
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Goro said:
It doesn't matter. Kids from my SMP have gone on to MD schools.
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I actually have a question kind of regarding that. I'm a FL resident but say I do an SMP in Texas, does that hurt my chances of getting into a FL med school? Could it help my chances for a Texas med school? Assuming that I do well, which I won't be working a full time job so I'm optimistic.
 
Zacht96 said:
I actually have a question kind of regarding that. I'm a FL resident but say I do an SMP in Texas, does that hurt my chances of getting into a FL med school? Could it help my chances for a Texas med school? Assuming that I do well, which I won't be working a full time job so I'm optimistic.
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It would not hurt your chances at all.

Med schools are not like jealous girlfriends.
 
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Can someone check my plan here? Hoping to apply in 2021.

basic facts:
  • s-GPA is either 2.12/54 or 2.43/66 depending on classification. Need 48 or 38 credits at 4.0 to get a 3.0
  • c-GPA is 2.74/192. Need 50 credits at 4.0 to get a 3.0
  • grad-GPA is approx 3.7 for 50-ish credits. (I know it doesn't count, but I'm including it for info. The school is very ugrad focused so many of the classes were 3/400-level classes with more work for the grad students.)
  • over 9000 hours working in academic medicine, some non-medical research things, have some solid volunteering and activity stuff
  • no MCAT yet because I'm only doing that once and not until I get the timeline done

prob bobs:
  • Had a loooong journey to get my degree including the usual family/financial/medical drama, multiple schools, etc.. That degree's trend goes up and down, but smooths to a j-shape more or less. The last 57 (the last 2 yrs) were at 3.44.
  • Started a post-bac while doing my master's (same schools and same as where I finished ugrad). 17 credits at a 2.0. HARD STOP.
  • Still need to do most of the pre-reqs

tha plan:
  • I'm taking the fall semester off. The last few years with everything have been really rough and I need to regroup.
  • Get a job. Pay down debts. Etc.
  • Review chem and calc 1 stuff in prep for taking chem 2 and calc 2 in the spring.
  • Register for a local CC (cheaper, easier to schedule, less bull****) for post-bacc.
  • Take and do well in ~50 credits at CC, even if not at 4.0 should create a steady trend.
  • Get back into volunteering and hobbies.

quez:
  • is Spring 2020 to Spring 2021 if it's 48-60 credits enough of a trend? Can't afford an SMP or formal post-bacc, so CC is gonna have to do.
  • obviously "the best possible" MCAT score, but what's the floor-ish?
  • planning on acquiring a fresher clinical experience depending on what's available. good idea?
  • my non-medical research and hobby things: fine to continue, yes?
  • plan for MCAT maybe September 2020 so I can retake in January 2021 if necessary?

What am I missing?

eta: im a 30-something white girl
 
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Hey @Goro
I recently graduated this semester with a cgpa of 3.35 and sgpa of 3.2~. My first couple years adjusting to college were tough as I am an African American male from a single mother household so i had to work 40+ hrs a week and I was in a major that i ultimately decided i hated (looking at you Comp Sci) which caused my gpa to be down in the 2~ range. After switching to premed I had a nice upward trend of 3.7+ the last 2 years, and im taking the MCAT Jan/Feb 2020. I wanted to see what MCAT range you think would give me a shot at any T20 or is all hope lost for those schools. Probably gonna need a 515-520+ to even have a hail mary chance right?
 
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frickchickens said:
Can someone check my plan here? Hoping to apply in 2021.

basic facts:
  • s-GPA is either 2.12/54 or 2.43/66 depending on classification. Need 48 or 38 credits at 4.0 to get a 3.0
  • c-GPA is 2.74/192. Need 50 credits at 4.0 to get a 3.0
  • grad-GPA is approx 3.7 for 50-ish credits. (I know it doesn't count, but I'm including it for info. The school is very ugrad focused so many of the classes were 3/400-level classes with more work for the grad students.)
  • over 9000 hours working in academic medicine, some non-medical research things, have some solid volunteering and activity stuff
  • no MCAT yet because I'm only doing that once and not until I get the timeline done

prob bobs:
  • Had a loooong journey to get my degree including the usual family/financial/medical drama, multiple schools, etc.. That degree's trend goes up and down, but smooths to a j-shape more or less. The last 57 (the last 2 yrs) were at 3.44.
  • Started a post-bac while doing my master's (same schools and same as where I finished ugrad). 17 credits at a 2.0. HARD STOP.
  • Still need to do most of the pre-reqs

tha plan:
  • I'm taking the fall semester off. The last few years with everything have been really rough and I need to regroup.
  • Get a job. Pay down debts. Etc.
  • Review chem and calc 1 stuff in prep for taking chem 2 and calc 2 in the spring.
  • Register for a local CC (cheaper, easier to schedule, less bull****) for post-bacc.
  • Take and do well in ~50 credits at CC, even if not at 4.0 should create a steady trend.
  • Get back into volunteering and hobbies.

quez:
  • is Spring 2020 to Spring 2021 if it's 48-60 credits enough of a trend? Can't afford an SMP or formal post-bacc, so CC is gonna have to do.
  • obviously "the best possible" MCAT score, but what's the floor-ish?
  • planning on acquiring a fresher clinical experience depending on what's available. good idea?
  • my non-medical research and hobby things: fine to continue, yes?
  • plan for MCAT maybe September 2020 so I can retake in January 2021 if necessary?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...
@frickchickens you don't need to take Calculus 2. Few med schools require Calculus any more. You might want to take a 1-semester Statistics class instead if you haven't had statistics. It is useful for interpreting things in med school as well as interpreting studies and graphs on the MCAT.
 
wysdoc said:
@frickchickens you don't need to take Calculus 2. Few med schools require Calculus any more. You might want to take a 1-semester Statistics class instead if you haven't had statistics. It is useful for interpreting things in med school as well as interpreting studies and graphs on the MCAT.
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I'll likely be taking stats. But I need to take calc-based physics, so I have to take calc 2. (my non-medicine interests which could be a 2nd career choice needs it, so I figured I'd get 2 birds/1 stone)
 
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Question: Should I be taking graduate level courses or undergraduate level courses to improve my chances into a SMP? Currently have a 2.7 c-GPA, but s-GPA is 3.3.
 
Good evening @Goro ,

I am planning out my second-year of post-bacc. Quick situation: ugpa: 3.16, minimal science, graduated 2014 with BA in Political Science. Did four years in the Army as an officer, found the calling while in. Got out last August and have completed 38 hours post-bacc to complete my prereqs for a new cgpa: 3.3, sgpa: 3.8, and post-bacc: 3.9.

I'll be taking Biochem, Genetics, Microbiology, and Calculus this semester as either MCAT prep or prereqs for future classes. How important are upper level Sciences beyond these as someone that just took virtually every single prereq in the last year?

Would it be more beneficial to take an additional semester of 12 hours of upper-ologies and take the MCAT over the holidays or study more into the spring while working/volunteering a clinical or research job? My thoughts are after 49/52 hours being BCPM with a solid GPA, I'll get diminishing returns versus building my ECs, but in the guide uppers levels are emphasized so I'd rather ask the experts.

Thank you for any help and good luck to everyone's application cycles!
 
TeamMLRS said:
Good evening @Goro ,

I am planning out my second-year of post-bacc. Quick situation: ugpa: 3.16, minimal science, graduated 2014 with BA in Political Science. Did four years in the Army as an officer, found the calling while in. Got out last August and have completed 38 hours post-bacc to complete my prereqs for a new cgpa: 3.3, sgpa: 3.8, and post-bacc: 3.9.

I'll be taking Biochem, Genetics, Microbiology, and Calculus this semester as either MCAT prep or prereqs for future classes. How important are upper level Sciences beyond these as someone that just took virtually every single prereq in the last year?

Would it be more beneficial to take an additional semester of 12 hours of upper-ologies and take the MCAT over the holidays or study more into the spring while working/volunteering a clinical or research job? My thoughts are after 49/52 hours being BCPM with a solid GPA, I'll get diminishing returns versus building my ECs, but in the guide uppers levels are emphasized so I'd rather ask the experts.

Thank you for any help and good luck to everyone's application cycles!
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First off, many thanks to you for your service to our country. Hooooahhh!
One can be a competitive candidate by aceing only the pre-reqs, but you owe it to yourself to ace some med school-like courses as well. So, taking the 12 more hours and then knocking off the mCAT is a good schedule, and then get in the ECs.
 
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DopamineAbuser said:
Hey @Goro
I recently graduated this semester with a cgpa of 3.35 and sgpa of 3.2~. My first couple years adjusting to college were tough as I am an African American male from a single mother household so i had to work 40+ hrs a week and I was in a major that i ultimately decided i hated (looking at you Comp Sci) which caused my gpa to be down in the 2~ range. After switching to premed I had a nice upward trend of 3.7+ the last 2 years, and im taking the MCAT Jan/Feb 2020. I wanted to see what MCAT range you think would give me a shot at any T20 or is all hope lost for those schools. Probably gonna need a 515-520+ to even have a hail mary chance right?
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why a t20 versus "I want to be a doctor so the only schools off the table are Loma Linda and the DO schools that @Goro recs against"?
 
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Goro said:
SDNers are habitually attracted to the ~30 schools that make up the "T20s" , like moths to flames.
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Meh. There's a t10 in my neighborhood and I don't like their program. usnwr is as useless as jd power.

(Also, while I'm quoting you: Do you mind taking a peek at my post in this thread and telling me if I've missed something? Prob should have posted in non-trad.)
 
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frickchickens said:
Meh. There's a t10 in my neighborhood and I don't like their program. usnwr is as useless as jd power.

(Also, while I'm quoting you: Do you mind taking a peek at my post in this thread and telling me if I've missed something? Prob should have posted in non-trad.)
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Always good to have stats
 
Goro said:
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Histology
Immunology
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!
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To say that you must have a 513+ to apply to MD schools is invalid and flat out wrong and discouraging. I know of plenty of people who’ve been accepted MD with less than a 513.
 
fitmedski9990 said:
To say that you must have a 513+ to apply to MD schools is invalid and flat out wrong and discouraging. I know of plenty of people who’ve been accepted MD with less than a 513.
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Were they reinventors? I am basing my recommendations on the experiences of SDNers who have successfully reinvented themselves and gotten into medical school, not just the regular pool

And this is also why I recommend 510+ for State schools, because State schools favor the home team.
 
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@Goro

I would love your input on my application! I submitted my app for this cycle but am sitting at about a 3.35 cgpa, 3.43 sgpa due to a couple courses freshman year. In my last two years of undergrad, I averaged a 3.85 and I scored a 515 on my MCAT. I am looking into ways to improve my GPA should I need to reapply and feel my best option is post-bacc work at my local community college. Tuition at my local university is nearly 10X the price and I am not in a position to afford that. Unfortunately, I could only raise my gpa to around a 3.45 by the next application cycle.

Do you think this is worth the investment? With two years of strong grades at a 4 year university, part of me feels like I would be wasting my time. What are your thoughts?
 
texasstudentformed said:
@Goro

I would love your input on my application! I submitted my app for this cycle but am sitting at about a 3.35 cgpa, 3.43 sgpa due to a couple courses freshman year. In my last two years of undergrad, I averaged a 3.85 and I scored a 515 on my MCAT. I am looking into ways to improve my GPA should I need to reapply and feel my best option is post-bacc work at my local community college. Tuition at my local university is nearly 10X the price and I am not in a position to afford that. Unfortunately, I could only raise my gpa to around a 3.45 by the next application cycle.

Do you think this is worth the investment? With two years of strong grades at a 4 year university, part of me feels like I would be wasting my time. What are your thoughts?
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You should be applying to your state schools, any DO school, and the following:
Case
BU
Wayne State
Drexel
Albany
NYMC
Netter
GWU
Loyola
Tulane
Rush
Miami
Wake
Gtown
Pitt
Emory
SLU
Creighton
EVMS
Tufts
Seton Hall
novaMD
TCU/UNT
 
@Goro I have a 3.65 gpa (3.4-3.5 sGPA) and 518 on MCAT. Graduated Columbia and am doing fulbright in Spain....2 research publications, president of club, secretary of club. former professional actor. Can I apply to top medical schools and have reasonable chance, or will low GPA ruin that?
 
pioneer22 said:
@Goro I have a 3.65 gpa (3.4-3.5 sGPA) and 518 on MCAT. Graduated Columbia and am doing fulbright in Spain....2 research publications, president of club, secretary of club. former professional actor. Can I apply to top medical schools and have reasonable chance, or will low GPA ruin that?
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Any rising GPA trend? If not, I'd be more conservative, but the MCAT ****** (WashU, Stanford, etc) may throw you some love.
 
Goro said:
Any rising GPA trend? If not, I'd be more conservative, but the MCAT ****** (WashU, Stanford, etc) may throw you some love.
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What is the s/c-gpa cutoff that top schools screen at?
 
Goro said:
It's late in the cycle for MD; I really can't predict because you have a lot of confounders. BUT, it's not too late for DO. Still, a 524 MCAT is nothing to sneeze at. Chances for MD are probably best at yoru state schools

IF you get shut out this cycle, here is what you you should target next year:

Columbia
UCSF
Pitt
Duke
Case
Hofstra
Mayo
NYU
BU
U Miami
Your state schools
Any DO school
Wake
Loyola
Rush
Drxel
Netter
NYMC
Albany
Wayne State
SLU
GWU
EVMS
Gtown
Dartmouth
Click to expand...

@Goro Just in case it's helpful in advising anyone who might be similar in the future: I was one of the extremely lucky few to get accepted last minute to a state school. Thank you for the advice, and good luck to all the reinventors out there!
 
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Thank you for this guideline!! Nontrad/reinventor here.. I am having a terrible time deciding if I should I wait to hear back from a couple post bacc programs/apply to a few more to start next year or start taking the 5/6 remaining pre-req's I need for in state tuition locally? I just graduated UG with a 3.4 cGPA 3.2 sGPA (last two years 3.85, 3.95, and just withdrew from an accelerated nursing program (3.9 gpa for 2 semesters).
EC's include 2 years of research (not published, just poster) 250+ clinical volunteering including a leadership-style internship. I am starting to train for a scribing job and plan to shadow/volunteer more but I just don't know if I should go the post bacc option vs. start diy courses ASAP.
 
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Goro, do you know if any states other than Tennessee or Texas accept an academic fresh start or academic forgiveness for transfers? I tried to find how Tennessee does it but I'm a little confused. They state you can't have any association with any academic institution for 4 years which I qualify for. I just reinstated myself for my local college but I still didn't apply for classes yet. I'm trying to find the law for Tennessee academic fresh starts but all I see is several universities offering it... I don't see a full common law that all Tennessee universities have to accept this especially medical schools over there.. unlike Texas which makes it clear that every Texas college has to accept an academic fresh start.

Thanks for the help from the previous thread too and this page for all the info. :)
 
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