Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

[hdmed1318]

I'm not the poster child for reinvention, but my background hits most of Goro's points. Originally pre-med, had some family events affect my school work and I changed to public health and stopped taking prereqs for med school (only needed to take orgo and physics at that point). A year after graduation I chose to apply to med school. I went back for orgo and physics, realized my grades weren't strong enough and I needed a full revamp, not just a completion of requirements. Retook gen chem II and orgo I. Got a 501 on the MCAT in 2015. Took a year to apply to SMPs and got my CNA certification - I worked full time as a CNA in a large hospital and saved as much as I could. I enrolled in a two-year SMP starting in the fall of 2016 and retook the MCAT in June 2017, getting a 509. I'm currently doing research at a well-known hospital and working as a CNA at another well-known hospital in one of the ICUs. I got three DO interviews and one MD interview - not a state school but one with a heavy focus on students from my area and with a rural background (I grew up in a town of 1200 residents). So that balanced my lower MCAT. I struggled with grades, with experiences, with explaining my low MCAT, but I made it happen. It's possible.

It's not easy and it's not cheap, but you can redeem yourself and WOW does it feel good to nail an answer in an interview to the "what happened?!" question you will ultimately get. Yeah, I have flaws and yeah I wasn't ready for med school then, but I am now and I know I am because of everything I've done - and there's proof on paper that I've done it and did well. Seriously it's possible.

EDIT: Sorry! I forgot to say that I was accepted to the MD school I interviewed at (as well as at the DO schools) and accepted the offer! That's kind of important to add - it's possible and I was successful!

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[G_clooney]

Such great info . . . @Goro

I'm wondering with my raw numbers, how you would advise I proceed (DIY post bacc + MCAT retake, SMP + MCAT retake, traditional post bacc + MCAT retake)

6/2/15 MCAT : 500 (498-502), 50th%
Chem/physics: 122 (21%)
CARS:126 (72%)
Bio: 124 (42%)
Psych: 128 (84%)

*There is a lot or room for improvement in my MCAT score, extenuating circumstanced on test day Mal-affected my chem/physics section

cGPA: 3.31
sGPA: 3.13
*upward trend: (Junior year: cGPA: 3.6, sGPA: 3.54. Senior Year: cGPA: 3.86 sGPA: 3.80)

Specific GPA weakness: (worth it to retake any of these? I have access to a CC)
Calc I : C+
Calc II : C-
Genetics w/Lab : C+
Orgo II w/ Lab : C+
General Bio I w/Lab : B-

In addition my hours are:
Non clinical volunteer: 350
Clinical paid: +3500
Clinical shadowing: 1000

I extremely appreciate any feedback you can give!

 

[Goro]

Such great info . . . @Goro

I'm wondering with my raw numbers, how you would advise I proceed (DIY post bacc + MCAT retake, SMP + MCAT retake, traditional post bacc + MCAT retake)

6/2/15 MCAT : 500 (498-502), 50th%
Chem/physics: 122 (21%)
CARS:126 (72%)
Bio: 124 (42%)
Psych: 128 (84%)

*There is a lot or room for improvement in my MCAT score, extenuating circumstanced on test day Mal-affected my chem/physics section

cGPA: 3.31
sGPA: 3.13
*upward trend: (Junior year: cGPA: 3.6, sGPA: 3.54. Senior Year: cGPA: 3.86 sGPA: 3.80)

Specific GPA weakness: (worth it to retake any of these? I have access to a CC)
Calc I : C+
Calc II : C-
Genetics w/Lab : C+
Orgo II w/ Lab : C+
General Bio I w/Lab : B-

In addition my hours are:
Non clinical volunteer: 350
Clinical paid: +3500
Clinical shadowing: 1000

I extremely appreciate any feedback you can give!

1) Retake MCAT
2) Do NOT retake any C grades.
3) Retake the C- ONLY if those courses are required for med school AND they need to be C or higher.
I think that with the rising GPA trend, then with a good MCAT, you should be good to go.

 

[G_clooney]

1) Retake MCAT
2) Do NOT retake any C grades.
3) Retake the C- ONLY if those courses are required for med school AND they need to be C or higher.
I think that with the rising GPA trend, then with a good MCAT, you should be good to go.

@Goro Thanks for the response. So are you advising to primarily focus on MCAT?
Even if that were my sole focus, and I took it with at least 6 months of prep, I would still be left with a glide year if applying for the 2019 cycle. What do you suggest is the best use of my time given my application weaknesses . . . SMP, or DIY post bacc classes? I am looking for the best way to prove myself as "reinvented", and since I graduated 4 years ago and haven't taken any formal coursework since, I don't want adcoms to doubt my level of preparedness.

 

[Goro]

@Goro Thanks for the response. So are you advising to primarily focus on MCAT?
Even if that were my sole focus, and I took it with at least 6 months of prep, I would still be left with a glide year if applying for the 2019 cycle. What do you suggest is the best use of my time given my application weaknesses . . . SMP, or DIY post bacc classes? I am looking for the best way to prove myself as "reinvented", and since I graduated 4 years ago and haven't taken any formal coursework since, I don't want adcoms to doubt my level of preparedness.

Focus on the MCAT and take some classes and ace them. No need for an SMP...I can['t recommend taking the MCAT while you're in an SMP...I've only seen disaster happen when my MS students try this.
And doing service to others less fortunate than yourself always looks good.

 

[G_clooney]

Focus on the MCAT and take some classes and ace them. No need for an SMP...I can['t recommend taking the MCAT while you're in an SMP...I've only seen disaster happen when my MS students try this.
And doing service to others less fortunate than yourself always looks good.

@Goro I have been well warned to avoid taking an SMP while prepping for the MCAT--hence if I were to pursue the option of an SMP for the sole purpose of boosting my GPA, I would re-take the MCAT this summer (before matriculation), or the summer directly after the program.

However it sounds like you are suggesting it is more suited for me to go the DIY route . . . if this is the case, what is your opinion of a GPA/credit hour goal to prove myself as capable of handling upper division sciences? It sounds as though a 3.5 GPA is a minimum for consideration if paired with a decent MCAT (510 or higher). Is this correct? And is there a big difference in acing classes taken at a 4 year vs at a CC?

 

[Goro]

I have been well warned to avoid taking an SMP while prepping for the MCAT--hence if I were to pursue the option of an SMP for the sole purpose of boosting my GPA, I would re-take the MCAT this summer (before matriculation), or the summer directly after the program.
Sounds good!

However it sounds like you are suggesting it is more suited for me to go the DIY route . . . if this is the case, what is your opinion of a GPA/credit hour goal to prove myself as capable of handling upper division sciences? It sounds as though a 3.5 GPA is a minimum for consideration if paired with a decent MCAT (510 or higher). Is this correct?
3.5 for DO, but 3.7+ for MD. Many of the successful reinventing SDNers who share details with me have 3.9's.



And is there a big difference in acing classes taken at a 4 year vs at a CC?
I think that you'll get more bang for the buck for you app by taking classes ata 4 year school, but a CC can work if finances are an issue, and you have a careful target list when aiming for MD.

 

[G_clooney]

I have been well warned to avoid taking an SMP while prepping for the MCAT--hence if I were to pursue the option of an SMP for the sole purpose of boosting my GPA, I would re-take the MCAT this summer (before matriculation), or the summer directly after the program.
Sounds good!

However it sounds like you are suggesting it is more suited for me to go the DIY route . . . if this is the case, what is your opinion of a GPA/credit hour goal to prove myself as capable of handling upper division sciences? It sounds as though a 3.5 GPA is a minimum for consideration if paired with a decent MCAT (510 or higher). Is this correct?
3.5 for DO, but 3.7+ for MD. Many of the successful reinventing SDNers who share details with me have 3.9's.



And is there a big difference in acing classes taken at a 4 year vs at a CC?
I think that you'll get more bang for the buck for you app by taking classes ata 4 year school, but a CC can work if finances are an issue, and you have a careful target list when aiming for MD.

@Goro You have directed me more than my undergrad pre-med committee was able to!
Is the 3.7 min GPA referring specifically to the post bacc classes I take, or is it overall cumulative post bacc work contributing to and raising my undergrad 3.3GPA? Do you happen to have any contacts in the Santa Barbara, CA area that could further counsel me/answer questions? Meeting in person is preferable, but Skype works as well!

 

[Goro]

@Goro You have directed me more than my undergrad pre-med committee was able to! Do you happen to have any contacts in the Santa Barbara, CA area that could further counsel me/answer questions. Meeting in person is preferable, but Skype works as well!

You will get good advice here in these forums

 

[G_clooney]

You will get good advice here in these forums

@Goro Sorry, I just edited my above post to ask a GPA specific Q . . .
"Is the 3.7 min GPA referring specifically to the post bacc classes I take, or is it overall cumulative post bacc work contributing to and raising my undergrad 3.3GPA?"

 

[Goro]

@Goro Sorry, I just edited my above post to ask a GPA specific Q . . .
"Is the 3.7 min GPA referring specifically to the post bacc classes I take, or is it overall cumulative post bacc work contributing to and raising my undergrad 3.3GPA?"

The post-bac. Too many SDNers in your position focus mindlessly on the cGPA, and fail to realize that it's close to impossible to raise a low one to a high one, unless you do something like 3-5 complete UG degrees. What they fail to understand is that many schools give more weight to the last 2-3 years of performance and less to the entire cGPA.

 

[chemdoctor]

I'm not the poster child for reinvention, but my background hits most of Goro's points. Originally pre-med, had some family events affect my school work and I changed to public health and stopped taking prereqs for med school (only needed to take orgo and physics at that point). A year after graduation I chose to apply to med school. I went back for orgo and physics, realized my grades weren't strong enough and I needed a full revamp, not just a completion of requirements. Retook gen chem II and orgo I. Got a 501 on the MCAT in 2015. Took a year to apply to SMPs and got my CNA certification - I worked full time as a CNA in a large hospital and saved as much as I could. I enrolled in a two-year SMP starting in the fall of 2016 and retook the MCAT in June 2017, getting a 509. I'm currently doing research at a well-known hospital and working as a CNA at another well-known hospital in one of the ICUs. I got three DO interviews and one MD interview - not a state school but one with a heavy focus on students from my area and with a rural background (I grew up in a town of 1200 residents). So that balanced my lower MCAT. I struggled with grades, with experiences, with explaining my low MCAT, but I made it happen. It's possible.

It's not easy and it's not cheap, but you can redeem yourself and WOW does it feel good to nail an answer in an interview to the "what happened?!" question you will ultimately get. Yeah, I have flaws and yeah I wasn't ready for med school then, but I am now and I know I am because of everything I've done - and there's proof on paper that I've done it and did well. Seriously it's possible.

EDIT: Sorry! I forgot to say that I was accepted to the MD school I interviewed at (as well as at the DO schools) and accepted the offer! That's kind of important to add - it's possible and I was successful!

That’s quite an inspirational story! Congratulations on your success. You’ve earned it

 

[G_clooney]

The post-bac. Too many SDNers in your position focus mindlessly on the cGPA, and fail to realize that it's close to impossible to raise a low one to a high one, unless you do something like 3-5 complete UG degrees. What they fail to understand is that many schools give more weight to the last 2-3 years of performance and less to the entire cGPA.

@Goro I've done some sleuthing on the matter, but I would love to hear your advice on a good list of schools linked to a medical school that offer a SMP that I could qualify for (MCAT-500 cGPA 3.31, sGPA 3.13). Being from CA, I'm trying to understand if places like KGI have the same stigma/advantages of other good SMPs.

 

[Goro]

@Goro I've done some sleuthing on the matter, but I would love to hear your advice on a good list of schools linked to a medical school that offer a SMP that I could qualify for (MCAT-500 cGPA 3.31, sGPA 3.13). Being from CA, I'm trying to understand if places like KGI have the same stigma/advantages of other good SMPs.

I do not have this in type of information

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro,

I just graduated in June of 2017. I'm sitting at a 3.53 cGPA and a 3.32 sGPA. I'm thinking of taking more classes at my alma mater for another year to boost myself to a 3.45 sGPA and 3.6 cGPA. Other relevant things: CA resident, an ORM, I have ~2500 paid hours as a MA at a nonprofit neighborhood clinic & ~500 volunteer hours at this clinic.

My last 2 years of college I earned a 3.68 cGPA and a 3.52 cGPA, respectively. I worked my last year of college, 20 hours a week. My sophmore year was a 2.91 cGPA and a 2.66 sGPA; this is really holding back my total GPA. However, I feel like I'm running out of classes to take. I've already taken biochem, genetics, cell bio, neurobio, parasitology, plant biodiversity, upper-division cell labs, anatomy, and physio, etc.

I am thinking of retaking those sophmore year classes that I scored C's in (organic chemistry and an intro biology class) since it would have been 4 years since I initially took them. I would take 4 classes this summer, 3 during fall quarter, and 3 during winter quarter to total 10 science classes. Other classes on my list that I am considering: ecology, invertebrate zoology, ecology of infectious diseases, astronomy, cell physiology, immunobiology, principles of evolution, marine biology, and pharmacology.

What do you think? I am certain that I could score A's if I retook those two intro classes so it would help my GPA. However, if it makes little difference to admissions, then I would rather take more upper division sciences. I tend to enjoy and perform more strongly in ecology-based classes. I will also be studying for the MCAT and preparing to take that at some point. Thank you for your help!

I don't think that it's wroth retaking any C class unless it's material needed for the MCAT and you're weak in it. Better to take something new to demonstrate that you can handle rigorous material and keep that streak going.

With two years of solid GPA repair that you have already done, I feel that you should take a crack at applying this upcoming cycle. Take the MCAT and do well. Then target DO schools broadly. MD schools? With a 513+, go for UCD, UCI and UCR IF you're from the Inland Empire.

 

[The Dragon Slayer]

I read through all of this "advice" and can tell you that a lot of what the OP is suggesting is pure nonsense. I am a reapplicant (to both MD and DO) with a 3.6 gpa, 3.45 sgpa and scores of 26, 28, 30 and 505 on the MCAT. Several years of undergrad volunteering, a few months of physician shadowing, and 1 year of research during a gap year while I was completing a master's. I was also an EMT. Even after the improvements I made "reinventing myself" spending nearly 2 years and an additional $50000 to do so, I am still currently ending up with the same result with no interviews or any prospects in this profession. It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor. The lowest grade I ever received was a B and I am still left with abysmal results. But hey, it isn't this guy footing the bill or growing older so why would he care? If you have less than a 3.2 or a 500 on the MCAT, choose another profession now. It is not worth the additional years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars for what is likely a 1 in 10 chance that you will ever attend a medical school on this continent. It is ironic that this guy advises people not to go to medical school in the Caribbean, but will essentially advise you to throw another expensive Hail Mary that is perhaps even more likely to result in you not being being able to practice medicine.

 

[mwsapphire]

I read through all of this "advice" and can tell you that a lot of what the OP is suggesting is pure nonsense. I am a reapplicant (to both MD and DO) with a 3.6 gpa, 3.45 sgpa and scores of 26, 28, 30 and 505 on the MCAT. Several years of undergrad volunteering, a few months of physician shadowing, and 1 year of research during a gap year while I was completing a master's. I was also an EMT. Even after the improvements I made "reinventing myself" spending nearly 2 years and an additional $50000 to do so, I am still currently ending up with the same result with no interviews or any prospects in this profession. It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor. The lowest grade I ever received was a B and I am still left with abysmal results. But hey, it isn't this guy footing the bill or growing older so why would he care? If you have less than a 3.2 or a 500 on the MCAT, choose another profession now. It is not worth the additional years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars for what is likely a 1 in 10 chance that you will have ever attending a medical school on this continent. It is ironic that this guy advises people not to go to the Caribbean but will essentially advise you to throw another expensive Hail Mary that is perhaps even more likely to result in you not being to practice medicine.

You have 4 MCAT scores.
And a bitter AF attitude.
That may have contributed to the rejections.

 

[Goro]

I read through all of this "advice" and can tell you that a lot of what the OP is suggesting is pure nonsense. I am a reapplicant (to both MD and DO) with a 3.6 gpa, 3.45 sgpa and scores of 26, 28, 30 and 505 on the MCAT. Several years of undergrad volunteering, a few months of physician shadowing, and 1 year of research during a gap year while I was completing a master's. I was also an EMT. Even after the improvements I made "reinventing myself" spending nearly 2 years and an additional $50000 to do so, I am still currently ending up with the same result with no interviews or any prospects in this profession. It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor. The lowest grade I ever received was a B and I am still left with abysmal results. But hey, it isn't this guy footing the bill or growing older so why would he care? If you have less than a 3.2 or a 500 on the MCAT, choose another profession now. It is not worth the additional years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars for what is likely a 1 in 10 chance that you will ever attend a medical school on this continent. It is ironic that this guy advises people not to go to medical school in the Caribbean, but will essentially advise you to throw another expensive Hail Mary that is perhaps even more likely to result in you not being being able to practice medicine.

SDNers, anybody want to take best as to which troll respawn this is???

In all seriousness dragon, I suspect a bad (but well-deserved) LOR.

For reference, note this thread:
OBGYN residency from foreign medical school

 

[mtn_dew0verdose]

SDNers, anybody want to take best as to which troll respawn this is???

In all seriousness dragon, I suspect a bad (but well-deserved) LOR.

For reference, note this thread:
OBGYN residency from foreign medical school

docwannabe1

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using SDN mobile

 

[mwsapphire]

SDNers, anybody want to take best as to which troll respawn this is???

In all seriousness dragon, I suspect a bad (but well-deserved) LOR.

For reference, note this thread:
OBGYN residency from foreign medical school

I actually think this is that other guy who complained about not getting into med school, he had weak grades in chem classes but besides that strong grades, he was a non trad, I forgot his username.....he made a whole thread to " just give up" or something. I think his original username was something like " don't do it its a trap" or something.....

 

[Goro]

docwannabe1

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using SDN mobile

 

[DOhopeful73]

@Goro Im taking your advice. I have a 503 MCAT been out of school for a while. Didnt do well in my UG career (2.6 uGPA). Going through with a 1 year DIY postbac then apply for an SMP for DO school. I feel that I have great EC's Ive worked as a Clinical Informations Manager (scribing) and was an EMT i have 2000+ hours by now. I also have worked closely with the homeless community to help create plans of action leading towards potential independence and sustainable housing.

 

[Goro]

@Goro Im taking your advice. I have a 504 MCAT been out of school for a while. Didnt do well in my UG career (2.6 uGPA). Going through with a 1 year DIY postbac then apply for an SMP for DO school. I feel that I have great EC's Ive worked as a Clinical Informations Manager (scribing) and was an EMT i have 2000+ hours by now. I also have worked closely with the homeless community to help create plans of action leading towards potential independence and sustainable housing.

Good luck! And do keep in touch

 

[calivianya]

It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor.

I have two D- and 1 F on my transcript - received 3 MD IIs and 6 DO IIs this cycle - accepted at my first DO interview and withdrew the rest of the DO interviews; still waiting on one MD interview decision.

It's very possible to get into a med school with Ds and Fs on your transcript.

 

[Goro]

I have two D- and 1 F on my transcript - received 3 MD IIs and 6 DO IIs this cycle - accepted at my first DO interview and withdrew the rest of the DO interviews; still waiting on one MD interview decision.

It's very possible to get into a med school with Ds and Fs on your transcript.

And cal is not an outlier, either.

 

[Suprachiasmatik]

You have 4 MCAT scores.
And a bitter AF attitude.
That may have contributed to the rejections.

I'd be pissed if I were him.

 

[mwsapphire]

I'd be pissed if I were him.

Yeah, but going so far as to say Goro doesn't know what he's talking about is kind of ****ty, though.
I mean, yeah, you shouldn't take everything everyone says on here as gospel, but it's just not worth it to drag him, you know?

 

[21Rush12]

Yeah, but going so far as to say Goro doesn't know what he's talking about is kind of ****ty, though.
I mean, yeah, you shouldn't take everything everyone says on here as gospel, but it's just not worth it to drag him, you know?

I’m sure Goro isn’t losing sleep over it.

You hit the nail on the head...4 consistently unimpressive MCAT scores and an unimpressive GPA, gee I wonder what happened?

 

[Suprachiasmatik]

4 consistently unimpressive MCAT scores and an unimpressive GPA, gee I wonder what happened?

Well, that was actually the guy's point.

He said don't bother trying to become a doctor with borderline or less GPA/MCAT, which is good advice. And honestly his stats with a 3.68 cGPA and 505 MCAT are not bad at all. That's totally reasonable for many schools. The truth is that medical school admissions are insanely competitive and subjective. The guy has sunk 5+ years and probably $100,000+ into this profession with nothing to show for it. Do you not have any sympathy for him?

 

[MDProspect]

I think it is worth to mention that if you choose to go down the SMP pathway, aim for the schools that have strong ties to their MD programs, and if possible, those that offer the option of having an advanced standing in their MD class.

 

[Goro]

I think it is worth to mention that if you choose to go down the SMP pathway, aim for the schools that have strong ties to their MD programs, and if possible, those that offer the option of having an advanced standing in their MD class.

This is one of the benefits of an SMP.

 

[premedbrah]

1-2 years of post bacc vs. 1 year post bacc + SMP

Will either produce similar results? I'd much prefer to take classes in a post-bacc versus doing an SMP (cost wise). Thanks in advance

 

[mtn_dew0verdose]

1-2 years of post bacc vs. 1 year post bacc + SMP

Will either produce similar results? I'd much prefer to take classes in a post-bacc versus doing an SMP (cost wise). Thanks in advance

Either are viable options, just depends on your situation and what you want (MD/DO/Don't care).

Post bacc and SMP combo would be more in line with gunning for the MD.

But a 1-2 year post bacc ought to be sufficient for DO.

Generally speaking of course.



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[Goro]

Either are viable options, just depends on your situation and what you want (MD/DO/Don't care).

Post bacc and SMP combo would be more in line with gunning for the MD.

But a 1-2 year post bacc ought to be sufficient for DO.

Generally speaking of course.

I agree! But keep in mind that for MD one needs to ace both MCAT and GPA. DO is a little more forgiving.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Then go to Podiatry School, become a doctor, and be done with the whining.

I read through all of this "advice" and can tell you that a lot of what the OP is suggesting is pure nonsense. I am a reapplicant (to both MD and DO) with a 3.6 gpa, 3.45 sgpa and scores of 26, 28, 30 and 505 on the MCAT. Several years of undergrad volunteering, a few months of physician shadowing, and 1 year of research during a gap year while I was completing a master's. I was also an EMT. Even after the improvements I made "reinventing myself" spending nearly 2 years and an additional $50000 to do so, I am still currently ending up with the same result with no interviews or any prospects in this profession. It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor. The lowest grade I ever received was a B and I am still left with abysmal results. But hey, it isn't this guy footing the bill or growing older so why would he care? If you have less than a 3.2 or a 500 on the MCAT, choose another profession now. It is not worth the additional years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars for what is likely a 1 in 10 chance that you will ever attend a medical school on this continent. It is ironic that this guy advises people not to go to medical school in the Caribbean, but will essentially advise you to throw another expensive Hail Mary that is perhaps even more likely to result in you not being being able to practice medicine.

 

[Robin-jay]

I read through all of this "advice" and can tell you that a lot of what the OP is suggesting is pure nonsense. I am a reapplicant (to both MD and DO) with a 3.6 gpa, 3.45 sgpa and scores of 26, 28, 30 and 505 on the MCAT. Several years of undergrad volunteering, a few months of physician shadowing, and 1 year of research during a gap year while I was completing a master's. I was also an EMT. Even after the improvements I made "reinventing myself" spending nearly 2 years and an additional $50000 to do so, I am still currently ending up with the same result with no interviews or any prospects in this profession. It is shocking to me that this guy would suggest that someone with D/F grades has any chance of ever becoming a doctor. The lowest grade I ever received was a B and I am still left with abysmal results. But hey, it isn't this guy footing the bill or growing older so why would he care? If you have less than a 3.2 or a 500 on the MCAT, choose another profession now. It is not worth the additional years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars for what is likely a 1 in 10 chance that you will ever attend a medical school on this continent. It is ironic that this guy advises people not to go to medical school in the Caribbean, but will essentially advise you to throw another expensive Hail Mary that is perhaps even more likely to result in you not being being able to practice medicine.

I'm usually pretty rough with people when I think they are footing a poor attitude. However, I think I can see some very valid frustration here.

This guy does seem to have done all the necessary things to become a physician. Taking the MCAT 4 times with scores between 26 and 30, having no grade lower than a B, volunteering and working clinically and non-clinically for years, and extensive physician shadowing. Something seems slightly off here.

I have questions for you slayer.

1.) Was your masters degree an SMP, and what was you GPA for that?

2.) What state are you from and where did you apply?

3.) Have you had an interview yet? (and were you rejected or wait listed after)?

 

[The Dragon Slayer]

I'm usually pretty rough with people when I think they are footing a poor attitude. However, I think I can see some very valid frustration here.

This guy does seem to have done all the necessary things to become a physician. Taking the MCAT 4 times with scores between 26 and 30, having no grade lower than a B, volunteering and working clinically and non-clinically for years, and extensive physician shadowing. Something seems slightly off here.

I have questions for you slayer.

1.) Was your masters degree an SMP, and what was you GPA for that?

2.) What state are you from and where did you apply?

3.) Have you had an interview yet? (and were you rejected or wait listed after)?

1) No it was not an SMP, 3.8
2) Alaska........everywhere
3) Yes, 1 interview, but only the first time I applied. Rejected a couple of weeks later.

I am not really here to complain. Just trying to prevent others from throwing time and money away if there is already a low chance they will see anything come out of it.

 

[Goro]

1) No it was not an SMP, 3.8
2) Alaska........everywhere
3) Yes, 1 interview, but only the first time I applied. Rejected a couple of weeks later.

I am not really here to complain. Just trying to prevent others from throwing time and money away if there is already a low chance they will see anything come out of it.

SDNers should always remember that 60% of med school applicants don't get into med school. Trying to get into this profession is a gamble. You increase your odds by having the best possible app and reducing your risks. Multiple MCAT takes are a risk. SDNers should also always have a Plan B, and realize that at some point, you gave it your best shot, and then it's time to do something else if you're not successful.

I understand frustration with the process, but to in the sin of solipsism and say "I failed, and therefore this is all bunk" is not realistic, given the number of people who have been successful at it.

A rapid reject after interview is generally a sign of red flags outside the application.

 

[Robin-jay]

1) No it was not an SMP, 3.8
2) Alaska........everywhere
3) Yes, 1 interview, but only the first time I applied. Rejected a couple of weeks later.

I am not really here to complain. Just trying to prevent others from throwing time and money away if there is already a low chance they will see anything come out of it.

Seems like you still have the option of doing an SMP still left on the table.

Just to reiterate, I know someone with 3-4 MCATs with 493 ish as their top score. They did an SMP, got accepted to a place with 504 MCAT average or so (they may have actually had multiple acceptances).

If I were in your shoes, that's what I would do, and that's about all you can do.

If you're really gunning for a med. school acceptance, then you could try moving to a different state for medical school, perhaps one who could do your SMP in.

 

[The Dragon Slayer]

SDNers should always remember that 60% of med school applicants don't get into med school. Trying to get into this profession is a gamble. You increase your odds by having the best possible app and reducing your risks. Multiple MCAT takes are a risk. SDNers should also always have a Plan B, and realize that at some point, you gave it your best shot, and then it's time to do something else if you're not successful.

I understand frustration with the process, but to in the sin of solipsism and say "I failed, and therefore this is all bunk" is not realistic, given the number of people who have been successful at it.

A rapid reject after interview is generally a sign of red flags outside the application.

Yeah, like what? If you are insinuating some sort of criminal record or other thing that could come up in a background check (which I don't even think is done until after an applicant is accepted) I have never had any arrests/convictions nor any sort of institutional actions taken against me. I also do not think my interview skills are so weak that it could have been the deciding factor in my application. You say to minimize risk, so why then you would you advise people to keep on trying when you must clearly realize that most of these people who attempt to "reinvent" themselves will be unsuccessful doing so? Data shows that re-applicants are significantly less likely to gain acceptance, as are people who take significant gaps in their training. Of course you probably think there are tons of people who are successful at it because only those who end up getting in come back here to tell you about it. You almost never hear from those of us who go down this route and are still left empty-handed.

 

[MDProspect]

Yeah, like what? If you are insinuating some sort of criminal record or other thing that could come up in a background check (which I don't even think is done until after an applicant is accepted) I have never had any arrests/convictions nor any sort of institutional actions taken against me. I also do not think my interview skills are so weak that it could have been the deciding factor in my application. You say to minimize risk, so why then you would you advise people to keep on trying when you must clearly realize that most of these people who attempt to "reinvent" themselves will be unsuccessful doing so? Data shows that re-applicants are significantly less likely to gain acceptance, as are people who take significant gaps in their training. Of course you probably think there are tons of people who are successful at it because only those who end up getting in come back here to tell you about it. You almost never hear from those of us who go down this route and are still left empty-handed.

So why did you decide to come back here? SDN is purely for advice. No one is forcing you to listen to Goro or anyone else for that matter. I was previously told by one of the beloved adcoms on here that my chances of getting into any medical school are slim to none, but I got into six schools. I did not go around bashing them on SDN. Not all advice may be relevant to your situation, but your salty attitude won't get you anywhere for a fact.

A red flag can be anything from poor recommendation letters to a poorly written application. You should have at least got into a DO school with your stats, so that tells me that numbers are not the real issue in your case.

 

[Goro]

Yeah, like what? If you are insinuating some sort of criminal record or other thing that could come up in a background check (which I don't even think is done until after an applicant is accepted) I have never had any arrests/convictions nor any sort of institutional actions taken against me. I also do not think my interview skills are so weak that it could have been the deciding factor in my application. You say to minimize risk, so why then you would you advise people to keep on trying when you must clearly realize that most of these people who attempt to "reinvent" themselves will be unsuccessful doing so? Data shows that re-applicants are significantly less likely to gain acceptance, as are people who take significant gaps in their training. Of course you probably think there are tons of people who are successful at it because only those who end up getting in come back here to tell you about it. You almost never hear from those of us who go down this route and are still left empty-handed.

People tend to be very poor judges of their interview performance.

Red flags can be IAs, multiple MCAT scores, displays of poor choice making, uneven academic performance, poor LORs lack of ECs, poorly written essays, bad application bad school target lists. Not all med schools reward reinvention, they can afford to turn people away in a seller's market.

I agree that all I have to go on is the SDNers who share their success in terms of reinvention, but these all have something in common, hence my advice. And, I freely share that my recommendations are made from the stories of successful SDNers ("of the SDNers who done X...")

But on top of that, I have my own students and I see what they do. And about 1/3rd of my SMP students ace the program and go on to MD or DO schools (most ours, which is where they want to go).

 

[GypsyHummus]

What happens to those SMP students who get below a 3.5/don’t make it anywhere?

People tend to be very poor judges of their interview performance.

Red flags can be IAs, multiple MCAT scores, displays of poor choice making, uneven academic performance, poor LORs lack of ECs, poorly written essays, bad application bad school target lists. Not all med schools reward reinvention, they can afford to turn people away in a seller's market.

I agree that all I have to go on is the SDNers who share their success in terms of reinvention, but these all have something in common, hence my advice. And, I freely share that my recommendations are made from the stories of successful SDNers ("of the SDNers who done X...")

But on top of that, I have my own students and I see what they do. And about 1/3rd of my SMP students ace the program and go on to MD or DO schools (most ours, which is where they want to go).

 

[MDProspect]

What happens to those SMP students who get below a 3.5/don’t make it anywhere?

They have a really expensive piece of paper without any real job prospects.

 

[The Dragon Slayer]

They have a really expensive piece of paper without any real job prospects.

And this is precisely why I think people need to be weary about suggesting that certain applicants do something like this. Is there really a good chance that someone with a sub 3.0 gpa or 500 MCAT is going to be able to perform well in an SMP program? Sure 1/3 might be successful at it but what about that other 66% of students? That is a lot of money to risk for such a small chance of getting you want. And even if you "ace" your master's program like I did, that still doesn't secure you anything.

 

[MDProspect]

And this is precisely why I think people need to be weary about suggesting that certain applicants do something like this. Is there really a good chance that someone with a sub 3.0 gpa or 500 MCAT is going to be able to perform well in an SMP program? Sure 1/3 might be successful at it but what about that other 66% of students? That is a lot of money to risk for such a small chance of getting you want. And even if you "ace" your master's program like I did, that still doesn't secure you anything.

That's why you don't just pick any random masters program. You do an SMP that has strong ties to the medical school, where it is almost a guaranteed acceptance as long as you can do well enough and not butcher your interview. You also choose a program that requires the MCAT for admissions. At my school, 80% of the SMP students get into the MD program at the school or get accepted elsewhere. The other 2o percent, either fail out or have poor interview skills.

 

[Goro]

They have a really expensive piece of paper without any real job prospects.

That's one of the downsides of a special master's program

 

[Lawpy]

And this is precisely why I think people need to be weary about suggesting that certain applicants do something like this. Is there really a good chance that someone with a sub 3.0 gpa or 500 MCAT is going to be able to perform well in an SMP program? Sure 1/3 might be successful at it but what about that other 66% of students? That is a lot of money to risk for such a small chance of getting you want. And even if you "ace" your master's program like I did, that still doesn't secure you anything.

I think it's important to realize that any SDN resource, not just Goro's guides, doesn't guarantee an acceptance. These resources just serve to help applicants understand the application process better and provide suggestions to improve their own application.

 

[jazzmetal]

That's why you don't just pick any random masters program. You do an SMP that has strong ties to the medical school, where it is almost a guaranteed acceptance as long as you can do well enough and not butcher your interview. You also choose a program that requires the MCAT for admissions. At my school, 80% of the SMP students get into the MD program at the school or get accepted elsewhere. The other 2o percent, either fail out or have poor interview skills.

Which SMPs would you recommend?

 

[Goro]

Which SMPs would you recommend?

I recommend ones given at a med school. They become the backdoor into that school.

Avoid two year programs..no need for that.

Also go for one that have direct linkage like at LECOM (you pass with 3.x GPA you're accepted).

The next best ones are those that have guaranteed interviews if your GPA is above 3.x

To tell the truth, these programs are a dime-a-dozen, so take you pick and be prepared to relocate if needed.