Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

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The only thing though is that if you ultimatley end up not getting into medical school you'd be able to get a better job with a Masters than just doing a post-bacc.

The only exception to this is doing an SMP. That is the best thing, but it is high-risk high-reward because if you do poorly in the SMP it will be extremely detrimental to your app.
 
So it seems the sentiment that taking a hard-science grad school diy post-back isn't looked favorably upon. So, if I work full time in research and have the hours from 8-5 blocked, can I enroll at my state university to take more upper-level classes, retake the MCAT, and apply? FWIW, my company will pay for these classes as well, which is why I favor this route more than going to an SMP.

cGPA: 3.4
sGPA: 3.2
Strong upward trend (3.7+ Junior and Senior year)

My concern is my GPA won't really go up much with 128 credits under my belt. Will the year by year break down on the AMCAS help "overlook" this?
 
FutureSurgical said:
So it seems the sentiment that taking a hard-science grad school diy post-back isn't looked favorably upon. So, if I work full time in research and have the hours from 8-5 blocked, can I enroll at my state university to take more upper-level classes, retake the MCAT, and apply? FWIW, my company will pay for these classes as well, which is why I favor this route more than going to an SMP.

cGPA: 3.4
sGPA: 3.2
Strong upward trend (3.7+ Junior and Senior year)

My concern is my GPA won't really go up much with 128 credits under my belt. Will the year by year break down on the AMCAS help "overlook" this?
Click to expand...
yes, absolutely. DIY post-bacs do have advantages, especially for people with work/life commitments.

Remember, the who whole point now is not raising your GPA, but showing the ou of now is not the you of then.
 
@Goro I will be doing an Masters program at Tulane in Pharmacology which will involve their MS2 class and be completed in the SOM. However, Pharmacology is not included in BCPM as you probably know. My cGPA is 3.3 with my sGPA being 3.0. Even if I get a 4.0 in this program, is my shot at MD done because they are pharmacology courses? Course names are molecular and cellular pharmacology, neuropharmacology, and medical pharmacology.

(as an edit, I think the Anatomy program here is the only one that contains a school linkage, but graduates of my program are usually granted an interview at LSU. In addition, I realize my MCAT is not included, I am more concerned about my shot in general.)

Thanks for your response in advanced.
 
Xyzcannon18 said:
@Goro I will be doing an Masters program at Tulane in Pharmacology which will involve their MS2 class and be completed in the SOM. However, Pharmacology is not included in BCPM as you probably know. My cGPA is 3.3 with my sGPA being 3.0. Even if I get a 4.0 in this program, is my shot at MD done because they are pharmacology courses? Course names are molecular and cellular pharmacology, neuropharmacology, and medical pharmacology.

(as an edit, I think the Anatomy program here is the only one that contains a school linkage, but graduates of my program are usually granted an interview at LSU. In addition, I realize my MCAT is not included, I am more concerned about my shot in general.)

Thanks for your response in advanced.
Click to expand...
You'll be fine.
 
Hi @Goro

Thank you for this thread.

Maybe you could guide me in the right direction. Currently I have a 2.92 cGPA and 2.88 sGPA (using AMCAS calculator). I had a pretty bad start to my college career, getting Cs in Bio I and II, Chem I and II, and Physics I and II, with a few Fs sprinkled in (discrete math, then retook and got a C, and also an F in medical terminology which in hindsight is awful). Then switched majors to computer science and got all kinds of grades in upper level courses, but also some As and Bs in upper division math courses. I stopped school for a year and half and tried my hand at pro tennis, but that didn't work out.

I went back to school, to a community college that offers bachelor's degrees because it was a lot more affordable, and since then maintained ~3.7 in biology track, getting As in genetics, biochem, orgo I, human physio, molecular bio, immuno, bioinformatics, zoology and evolution. And Bs in Orgo II, microbio, and botany. I have ~200 hours of volunteer research, ~35 hours of shadowing a pain doctor and ~15 hours of shadowing a plastic surgeon.

I made another mistake in rushing to take the MCAT as soon as the 2019 cycle opened up and ended up with a 505.

I'm not sure whether I should retake those lower division sciences because of the Cs, or try to apply to an SMP? Which would maximize my chances assuming I well in either?

Thank you for your time and help.
 
nickzanh said:
Hi @Goro

Thank you for this thread.

Maybe you could guide me in the right direction. Currently I have a 2.92 cGPA and 2.88 sGPA (using AMCAS calculator). I had a pretty bad start to my college career, getting Cs in Bio I and II, Chem I and II, and Physics I and II, with a few Fs sprinkled in (discrete math, then retook and got a C, and also an F in medical terminology which in hindsight is awful). Then switched majors to computer science and got all kinds of grades in upper level courses, but also some As and Bs in upper division math courses. I stopped school for a year and half and tried my hand at pro tennis, but that didn't work out.

I went back to school, to a community college that offers bachelor's degrees because it was a lot more affordable, and since then maintained ~3.7 in biology track, getting As in genetics, biochem, orgo I, human physio, molecular bio, immuno, bioinformatics, zoology and evolution. And Bs in Orgo II, microbio, and botany. I have ~200 hours of volunteer research, ~35 hours of shadowing a pain doctor and ~15 hours of shadowing a plastic surgeon.

I made another mistake in rushing to take the MCAT as soon as the 2019 cycle opened up and ended up with a 505.

I'm not sure whether I should retake those lower division sciences because of the Cs, or try to apply to an SMP? Which would maximize my chances assuming I well in either?

Thank you for your time and help.
Click to expand...
Don't retake any C grade; do better in different upper division classes in a post-bac, or ace an SMP.
For MD you'll need to retake the MCAT and score > 510. For DO you're fine as is.
 
Goro said:
Don't retake any C grade; do better in different upper division classes in a post-bac, or ace an SMP.
For MD you'll need to retake the MCAT and score > 510. For DO you're fine as is.
Click to expand...

One more quick question, I noticed I have a C- for Gen Chem I in my first semester in college back in 2009, since I'm already finished with my bachelor's, should I retake the class or will C- for Gen Chem I (and a C in gen chem II) suffice based on me having A and B in orgo I and II, assuming I go into an SMP?

Thank you
 
nickzanh said:
One more quick question, I noticed I have a C- for Gen Chem I in my first semester in college back in 2009, since I'm already finished with my bachelor's, should I retake the class or will C- for Gen Chem I (and a C in gen chem II) suffice based on me having A and B in orgo I and II, assuming I go into an SMP?

Thank you
Click to expand...
Some schools require a C or better in pre-reqs, so I recommend retaking anything < C. It will help you for MCAT, if you haven't taken it already.
 
@Goro

with a 3.45 gpa/3.28 bcpm from a top tier grade deflating school (510 mcat) would you think i have a shot at applying this cycle? i have 300+ hours research, two clinical volunteer positions, 150+ hours shadowing, and am on exec of a club an in a few others clubs. i'd prefer not to take a gap year if i can get into an okay med school. let me know what you think!!
 
handsanitizer2021 said:
@Goro

with a 3.45 gpa/3.28 bcpm from a top tier grade deflating school (510 mcat) would you think i have a shot at applying this cycle? i have 300+ hours research, two clinical volunteer positions, 150+ hours shadowing, and am on exec of a club an in a few others clubs. i'd prefer not to take a gap year if i can get into an okay med school. let me know what you think!!
Click to expand...
Does your school routinely send pre-meds to particular med schools?
Do you have a rising GPA trend?

With your sGPA well < the 10th %iles of nearly all MD schools, I don't think you're going to get much love, unless your school sends pre-meds to particular med schools, and also provided that your MCAT score is close to their median for acceptees.

I'm not really a fan of the concept of "I didn't do so well at my grade deflating school, so my 3.x GPA would be a 3.8 anywhere else."

You can always try an app cycle and apply to an SMP at the same time. If you get no love from med schools (although you're fine for any DO school), you have a fallback. Or save a year and apply to DO schools.

You should always apply to your state MD school, even if you're from CA
 
Goro said:
Does your school routinely send pre-meds to particular med schools?
Do you have a rising GPA trend?

With your sGPA well < the 10th %iles of nearly all MD schools, I don't think you're going to get much love, unless your school sends pre-meds to particular med schools, and also provided that your MCAT score is close to their median for acceptees.

I'm not really a fan of the concept of "I didn't do so well at my grade deflating school, so my 3.x GPA would be a 3.8 anywhere else."

You can always try an app cycle and apply to an SMP at the same time. If you get no love from med schools (although you're fine for any DO school), you have a fallback. Or save a year and apply to DO schools.

You should always apply to your state MD school, even if you're from CA
Click to expand...

yeah i'm not trying to quote that concept because i realize there's no proof of that. but yes to a rising gpa trend (started out with ~3.1). i will probably apply to programs outside of med school for backup of course. would it be okay to apply to other pe-health programs or would that be really bad if med schools figured it out?
 
handsanitizer2021 said:
yeah i'm not trying to quote that concept because i realize there's no proof of that. but yes to a rising gpa trend (started out with ~3.1). i will probably apply to programs outside of med school for backup of course. would it be okay to apply to other pe-health programs or would that be really bad if med schools figured it out?
Click to expand...

I don't know how they'd find that out, but IF they did, your commitment to Medicine would be questioned.
 
@Goro You replied to my thread about taking 12-hour semesters for multiple semesters and how this is viewed very unfavorably. Should I be trying to “reinvent” myself during my gap year through post-bacc or SMP, or is that overkill? My GPA is fine (GPA and sGPA are 3.85; 3.93 for Texas schools), my clinical experience is also fine (300 hours). If not a post-bacc/SMP, I’m at a loss for how to address this weakness in my application.
 
mg_123 said:
@Goro Should I be trying to “reinvent” myself during my gap year through post-bacc or SMP, ? My GPA is fine (GPA and sGPA are 3.85; 3.93 for Texas schools), my clinical experience is also fine (300 hours). If not a post-bacc/SMP, I’m at a loss for how to address this weakness in my application.
Click to expand...
In your case, I suggest trying an app cycle and seeing how it shakes out. Being a Texan gives you a lot of advantages. I can't recommend a SMP at this point.
 
I had a 2.66 from my CC the first two years and a 3.55 for my last two years at a different college where i graduated. According to my calculations i get a 3.0 for both science and cumulative gpa. Also got a low score on the Mcat and need to retake it.
It seems like even if i try the SMP i would still not reach a competitive gpa, or i need to spend over 3 years to bring it up to a 3.5.

Also got a couple of rejections from two SMP programs due to my low MCat.

Any suggestions if there is still hope based on my stats?
 
Koci said:
I had a 2.66 from my CC the first two years and a 3.55 for my last two years at a different college where i graduated. According to my calculations i get a 3.0 for both science and cumulative gpa. Also got a low score on the Mcat and need to retake it.
It seems like even if i try the SMP i would still not reach a competitive gpa, or i need to spend over 3 years to bring it up to a 3.5.

Also got a couple of rejections from two SMP programs due to my low MCat.

Any suggestions if there is still hope based on my stats?
Click to expand...

DIY post-bacc + Strong MCAT retake.
 
Kpw101 said:
DIY post-bacc + Strong MCAT retake.
Click to expand...
I did not do very bad on my prerequisite just got a lot of c and c+ during the first years. Even if i try the post-bacc or Smp i will still not be able to increase it to a competitive level unless i take over 70 units?
I used a spreadsheet found on a different thread and according to the calculations i will need over 60 units to get to a 3.4.

Please see attachment
 

Attachments

Koci said:
I did not do very bad on my prerequisite just got a lot of c and c+ during the first years. Even if i try the post-bacc or Smp i will still not be able to increase it to a competitive level unless i take over 70 units?
I used a spreadsheet found on a different thread and according to the calculations i will need over 60 units to get to a 3.4.

Please see attachment
Click to expand...
It is no longer about raising your GPA, but having a prolonged streak of high grades right now.
 
Goro said:
It is no longer about raising your GPA, but having a prolonged streak of high grades right now.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that if i try an SMP at Georgetown or wherever i can get accepted with my low Mcat i would still have a chance to get accepted in MD.

Even with straight As full time for one year i will not be able to increase my sgpa more than 3.1-3.2 which is still very low for MD? Or better formulated, have you heard of anyone getting accepted with similar stats?

However the upward trend would be very significant.
 
Koci said:
Do you believe that if i try an SMP at Georgetown or wherever i can get accepted with my low Mcat i would still have a chance to get accepted in MD.

Even with straight As full time for one year i will not be able to increase my sgpa more than 3.1-3.2 which is still very low for MD? Or better formulated, have you heard of anyone getting accepted with similar stats?

However the upward trend would be very significant.
Click to expand...

Your GPA doesnt matter at this point. Do the best you can, apply to schools that reward reinvention as per @Goro and hope for the best. If you cant get into an SMP a DIY post bacc will suffice.

Yes it's still possible for you to go to medical school. How likely that is to happen depends on your postbacc/MCAT performance.

Make sure you consider DO schools.
 
To further answer your question, I have heard of people getting in with <3.2 GPAs. Most of these people usually rocked their MCAT and/or have rockstar ECs.
 
Kpw101 said:
To further answer your question, I have heard of people getting in with <3.2 GPAs. Most of these people usually rocked their MCAT and/or have rockstar ECs.
Click to expand...
Those several different people:
URM
Veterans
Killer ECs
Compelling life stories
Legacies
and most importantly, people who did post-bacs or SMPs.

keep in mind that these are all outliers.
 
Koci said:
Do you believe that if i try an SMP at Georgetown or wherever i can get accepted with my low Mcat i would still have a chance to get accepted in MD.

Even with straight As full time for one year i will not be able to increase my sgpa more than 3.1-3.2 which is still very low for MD? Or better formulated, have you heard of anyone getting accepted with similar stats?

However the upward trend would be very significant.
Click to expand...
Doing an SMP at a med school and aceing it, along with aceing the MCAT is your best chance at getting into an MD school, especially the host school for the SMP, and your state schools and all DO school. With a low MCAT, only DO schools will be in reach.

Always have a Plan B.
 
Goro said:
It is no longer about raising your GPA, but having a prolonged streak of high grades right now.
Click to expand...

Just to add to this, my DIY post bac had around 21 credits at a 4.3 but barely raised my cGPA (which was around a 3.2 to start and right around a 3.3 upon completion). However, combined with a 90th % MCAT and applying very broadly, I had 3 MD IIs, 2 MD waitlists and 1 acceptance (along with many DO acceptances).
 
Sorry, I may not have looked hard enough but everyone keeps mentioning Goro's school list that rewards reinvention but I am having issues finding said list. Can anyone link me to it?
 
Goro said:
yes, absolutely. DIY post-bacs do have advantages, especially for people with work/life commitments.

Remember, the who whole point now is not raising your GPA, but showing the ou of now is not the you of then.
Click to expand...
This is awesome, thank you. I'll be enrolling for the spring of 2019 to take a few classes. Since I have a biology degree, how many classes should I take to show I have what it takes? Should it be at least 5 courses over the span of a few years?

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
FutureSurgical said:
This is awesome, thank you. I'll be enrolling for the spring of 2019 to take a few classes. Since I have a biology degree, how many classes should I take to show I have what it takes? Should it be at least 5 courses over the span of a few years?

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
Five over a few years? More than that...should be around 30-40 hours. I guess that would be more like 7-10?
 
Goro said:
Five over a few years? More than that...should be around 30-40 hours. I guess that would be more like 7-10?
Click to expand...
I mean that, because I work 40+ hours a week and have a call schedule, I can only do 1-2 courses over a semester. Unless I take morning classes. This is all hypothetical to be sure. I'm sure you've seen applicants (and matriculants) at your medical school that worked FT and took classes as well. How did they generally get it done?

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
I got a C- in my general Bio II (which of course is a prerequisite). Should I retake that course or move on and do well in upper-division courses?
 
FutureSurgical said:
I mean that, because I work 40+ hours a week and have a call schedule, I can only do 1-2 courses over a semester. Unless I take morning classes. This is all hypothetical to be sure. I'm sure you've seen applicants (and matriculants) at your medical school that worked FT and took classes as well. How did they generally get it done?

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
You should be able to do 2 courses/semester for a year, including summer. This is a marathon now, not a sprint. So, two years work of post-bac.

Being good at time mgt is the key.
 
Goro said:
You should be able to do 2 courses/semester for a year, including summer. This is a marathon now, not a sprint. So, two years work of post-bac.

Being good at time mgt is the key.
Click to expand...
Goro... If my cGPA will never get above a 3.0 is it still viable to apply? My cGPA even after 2 years of A's will be a 2.6. I know reinvention is key, but I just can't fathom any medical school seriously considering my application with a cumulative so far below the average. Just some feelings I'm having as of late
 
Goro said:
You should be able to do 2 courses/semester for a year, including summer. This is a marathon now, not a sprint. So, two years work of post-bac.

Being good at time mgt is the key.
Click to expand...
I'm willing to take that on. Thank you so much for everything you do. It's a life saver
 
premedbrah said:
Goro... If my cGPA will never get above a 3.0 is it still viable to apply? My cGPA even after 2 years of A's will be a 2.6. I know reinvention is key, but I just can't fathom any medical school seriously considering my application with a cumulative so far below the average. Just some feelings I'm having as of late
Click to expand...
Reading his guide, the sentiment seems that cGPA isn't what you're trying to raise. Adcoms see your GPA break down year-by-year. The schools that reward reinvention (state schools and other non-trad-friendly schools (UW, Dartmouth, and U Miami (FL)) for example) will take into consideration where you are now vs. where you were in college. They'll see the initial breakdown (<2.6 cGPA) and the new GPA that you have now (hopefully a 3.7+), even though it'll be calculated to your first GPA.
 
How much weight should we give to a school that "rewards reinvention" vs schools that are not on the list but that have numbers that are within striking distance.

For example:

School A rewards reinvention and you fit that description but your numbers are below their 10th percentile (Mayo for example has a 3.72 tenth percentile cGPA)

School B is not known to reward reinvention but your numbers are within striking distance (25th percentile is 3.5 and you have a 3.5, private university so there is no in-state preference)

In this scenario it seems that it would be more prudent to apply to school B from a statistical point of view. My question is then, does the fact that a school rewards reinvention make it more reasonable to apply to school A even though your numbers are not within their 10th percentile?
 
esob said:
How much weight should we give to a school that "rewards reinvention" vs schools that are not on the list but that have numbers that are within striking distance.

For example:

School A rewards reinvention and you fit that description but your numbers are below their 10th percentile (Mayo for example has a 3.72 tenth percentile cGPA)

School B is not known to reward reinvention but your numbers are within striking distance (25th percentile is 3.5 and you have a 3.5, private university so there is no in-state preference)

In this scenario it seems that it would be more prudent to apply to school B from a statistical point of view. My question is then, does the fact that a school rewards reinvention make it more reasonable to apply to school A even though your numbers are not within their 10th percentile?
Click to expand...
Go for A and B. if your numbers are within the 25-90th %iles, you should go for it.
 
@Goro I was hoping to apply this cycle but got my MCAT scores back today -- 509 (129/123/128/129).. If I'm gunning for MD schools, should I hold off on applying, retake, and apply next cycle with a better app? 3.2s/3.1c/4.0 pb, ~4000hrs research with a couple pubs + other standard EC's. ORM CA resident.

Would appreciate your input. Thanks
 
fried_chicken said:
@Goro I was hoping to apply this cycle but got my MCAT scores back today -- 509 (129/123/128/129).. If I'm gunning for MD schools, should I hold off on applying, retake, and apply next cycle with a better app? 3.2s/3.1c/4.0 pb, ~4000hrs research with a couple pubs + other standard EC's. ORM CA resident.

Would appreciate your input. Thanks
Click to expand...
Hard situation. What happened with CARS? ESL? 1st gen American? IF you're Hispanic, I'd say go for applying, but if you were my child, I'd say do everything possible to fix the CARS deficit and retake. AND get in more service to others less fortunate than yourself.

ALL Do schools will glom onto you in a heartbeat, including mine.
 
Goro said:
Hard situation. What happened with CARS? ESL? 1st gen American? IF you're Hispanic, I'd say go for applying, but if you were my child, I'd say do everything possible to fix the CARS deficit and retake. AND get in more service to others less fortunate than yourself.

ALL Do schools will glom onto you in a heartbeat, including mine.
Click to expand...

I just choked -- CARS was always one of my lower ones in practice, but I honestly didn't think I'd get this low of a score on it. Asian low SES/disadvantaged but don't think it helps in justifying my low score.

thanks
 
@Goro Giving you an update on my first quarter back at a university of california school. Im actually back at my alma matter. Im pleased to say that I have taken Immunology, Human neuroanatomy, and Cellular neuroscience all at A+ level. I am really hitting my stride academically. I have also started clinical research at an academic level 2 trauma center. By this time next year I will have over 47 units (of new, upper division, science only classes) at a 4.0 which will include the full biochemistry series amongst other classess.

At this rate maintaining a 4.0 post bac GPA, considering my 504 mcat, Low uGPA 2.6 (now massive upward trend) and 4000+ hours of clinical experience, how would I look at applying next cycle? I have also considered submitting an application to DO schools after i receive my fall quarter grades (by this time I will have 31 units completed).

I really appreciate your input and I will not be throwing in the towel until I can say that I really gave it my all for at least a year or 2 of solid improvement. At this time Im kinda failing to see the value of an SMP and I cant really justify the expense. Even at the rate im going other health professional schools can be a back up.
 
Last edited:
@Goro

Is there a "list" of MD schools that reward reinvention/consider application holistically if you have a high mcat (3.3 525). I've heard that Mayo, Keck-USC, Duke fit into this category but I'm not sure of what other schools do as well.
 
JBruinW said:
@Goro

Is there a "list" of MD schools that reward reinvention/consider application holistically if you have a high mcat (3.3 525). I've heard that Mayo, Keck-USC, Duke fit into this category but I'm not sure of what other schools do as well.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head:
UCSF
Columbia
NYU (if you have an MCAT of 520+)
Case
Duke
Einstein
Dartmouth
Hofstra
Vandy
Keck, maybe
Rosy F
Drexel
NYMC
Netter
Tulane
Your state schools
ALL DO schools
SLU
Wake
EVMS
Loyola
Mayo
Pitt
 
@Goro What's your take on pre-reqs that are out of the time window for application? I've graduated with my BS and have been working full time for the last 3 years since. I'm just now going back to retake classes at a community college. I suffer from a relatively low cGPA at 2.68 from undergrad and I'm trying to reinvent myself back into school. Should I only retake the pre-reqs that are out of the time window and look towards those upper level science courses? Thanks for all of your help!
 
Retake if:
the course were taken too long ago for the schools you're applying for (their Admissions pages will tell you what the expiration dates are)
OR
you are so unfamiliar with the material now that it would compromise your ability to do well on MCAT
 
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