Got Accepted to DO and St. Georges University. What to do?

[WDeagle]

I just want to comment on many pre-osteo on this forum comparing osteopathic schools to US MD schools. For example, the average MCAT for west virginia hovers around 21. If you chose west virginia over stateside MD, that would not be the brightest move. Many of the new DO schools that open do not even report their MCAT or GPA. Because it will be very low, most likely below 20 and the gpa most likely dip below 3.0. Do not kid yourself, most of these students have failed to get into MD schools (which is nothing to be ashamed of btw), and is using DO as backups. Yes there are a minor few that chose DOs over MD and had a chance at an MD school (or even got in), but those are a rare and a LOT fewer than these forums are led to believe. IN ADDITION, YOU CANNOT COMPARE A DO ENTERING GPA STATS WITH AN MD ENTINERING STATS. MD schools average all GPA, even if you retake a class whereas DO schools replace a retaken class. This will make a HUGE difference in entering stats of a DO school, which makes it appear that the caliber of students is close to MD schools, which it is not. When the average GPA is around 3.2, replacing grades makes a HUGE difference in the reporting grades, as most students with 3.2 gpa most likely have retaken more than one class. I'm willing to venture that west virginia's average gpa of around 3.2 is closer to 2.8-2.9 if you average the gpa like an MD school does. I have known friends who applied to MD and DO schools, and GPA can differ significantly through AMCAS and AACOMAS.
Touro NY, a new school, literally you just need around a 3.0 and 20 MCAT and you're almost a shoe in. Nobody in their right mind will go to that school over an MD school.

I have seen alot of misinformed comments on SDN but this might take the cake. First off, I'm willing to venture that you have no clue what your talking about. You cant just make up random statistics. You never provided a source saying that WVSOM's mcat average is 21 and that a new DO schools mcat average is a 20. Many(probably most) DO schools have an MCAT cutoff of 22. Furthermore, the average incoming GPA for most DO schools is about the same(a little lower) as for allopathic schools. The difference resides in MCAT scores. The incoming stats for my class were 3.7gpa and 28mcat. My estimate is that at least 1/3 of my class had allopathic acceptances as well. O/P it seems like the more knowledgeable people on this thread are all saying to go DO but SGU is a fine choice if you must have the MD letters by your name.

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[IDBasco]

There are people in my class who got like 24's on the MCAT, who are every bit the equal of guys I went to undergrad with, who got high-30's.

Personally, I though the MCAT was easy. I thought it was a complete bull**** test, and I was extremely disappointed with a 33. On the other hand, I have classmates who thought it was the hardest test ever, got mid-20's, and are now outperforming me in medical school.

What background you come from makes a difference too.

There is a lot less separating a 3.2 25 MCAT student from the 3.8 35 MCAT student than you would like to think. Once that 3.2/25 student gets to med school, and suddenly doesn't have to work to support him/herself, and can focus on studying all the time, its a whole new ballgame. I 100% **** you not about this. And if you are the latter, congratulations. You worked hard to achieve that, and you should be proud. But if you think that makes you exceptional in some way, then you are in for a big shock. I don't care if you go to Stanford or West Virginia. Someone will be better than you there.

I will echo these statements. I am regularly beaten on exams by about 3-4% by a guy that I outscored by 5 points on the MCAT. Another person I know scores about equal to me with a MCAT score 7 points below mine. To note, I really didn't work that hard on studying for the MCAT and got a 30. Whats the difference? Well the MCAT tests your ability to think and not so much to memorize, but med school is more about memorization in my experience and less about thinking- though that component is certainly there.

 

[fireflygirl]

I agree with TT's post. And I would recommend that the OP listen very carefully to what people are saying on these posts. I have a friend right now that is at Ross (but also had the chance to take up a DO acceptance) with her fiance because that's the only place that the two of them could get into school together and that was very important for them. Anyways, she's miserable. She wishes she would have taken the DO route because not only did she have to adjust to being somewhere foreign but she's really fed up with trying to prove herself constantly. She's really scared that she's going to be apart of the attrition statisitic and is studying non-stop because she doesn't want to have to leave. She finds the atmosphere too competitive, almost hostile. She doesn't feel like she can just relax with her friends because she feels like everyone else is always watching who's studying and who's not...etc.

On top of that, she's not happy with the living conditions and some of the things that come with living on an island. She says that she's really happy with the education but she feels like she has to take a hard emotional hit because of everything else she has had to adjust to and in the long run, she doesn't feel it's worth it. Every time we chat on gchat, I almost get tired of listening to how miserable she is because I told her for a long time not to take up the Carrib offer but she was bent on going since her fiance was.

This might be a very extreme example and I'm sure there are some very happy students at Carib schools but based on everything I know and then hearing my friend's experince, I just think that the OP is going to benefit so much more, academically and emotionally, by staying in the states.

 

[Eudjinn]

Considering that you are "pre-health", I can see where the ******ation comes from. I've got to tell you that things are not nearly as simple as they seem to you.

There are people in my class who got like 24's on the MCAT, who are every bit the equal of guys I went to undergrad with, who got high-30's.

Personally, I though the MCAT was easy. I thought it was a complete bull**** test, and I was extremely disappointed with a 33. On the other hand, I have classmates who thought it was the hardest test ever, got mid-20's, and are now outperforming me in medical school.

And there's more to GPA than just the numbers. My overall GPA is 2.7. Never mind the fact that I graduated with a 2.2, and then went back for a post-bac, pulled a 3.5 in 80+ hours of upper-level science courses.

And what about engineering majors? You go to a "big name" engineering school, such as my undergrad, U of Texas, and the GPA's are going to be a hell of a lot lower than what you see from the average pre-med, who goes on pick-a-prof every semester to find the easiest professors.

What background you come from makes a difference too.

There is a lot less separating a 3.2 25 MCAT student from the 3.8 35 MCAT student than you would like to think. Once that 3.2/25 student gets to med school, and suddenly doesn't have to work to support him/herself, and can focus on studying all the time, its a whole new ballgame. I 100% **** you not about this. And if you are the latter, congratulations. You worked hard to achieve that, and you should be proud. But if you think that makes you exceptional in some way, then you are in for a big shock. I don't care if you go to Stanford or West Virginia. Someone will be better than you there.

good post by TT. i want to comment on bolded part. it is extremely true. neither MCAT alone nor grades are a perfect example of how one performs in med school. i had a 26 on the mcat and i am doing very well on my exams so far.

 

[tideleonheart]

Another vote in for going D.O. over Caribbean. It's REALLY nice to be able to go home fairly easily. I live 2.5 hours away from home and it really helps to keep you sane. Also, residencies are typically more receptive to DOs than Caribbean. That said, if you work very hard, nothing is out of reach no matter where you went to school.

And also, to echo what TT said... You can't measure the med student by the MCAT score. It never ceases to amaze me how many brilliant people are at my school, even though our average MCAT was 25. Also, remember there are a lot of people like me who hadn't even had all the classes the MCAT tests when we took the MCAT. (I hadn't had physics in college or high school and my college bio/organic/chem was 1-3 years old each)

 

[Phospholipid]

I have seen alot of misinformed comments on SDN but this might take the cake. First off, I'm willing to venture that you have no clue what your talking about. You cant just make up random statistics. You never provided a source saying that WVSOM's mcat average is 21 and that a new DO schools mcat average is a 20. Many(probably most) DO schools have an MCAT cutoff of 22. Furthermore, the average incoming GPA for most DO schools is about the same(a little lower) as for allopathic schools. The difference resides in MCAT scores.

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

Your school must have been the top 3-4 on that list. The top DO schools are hard to get into, but the majority of them are not, especially the ones that don't report their MCAT and GPAs. As a DO student, you are grouped with all DO schools as a whole, which may not be fair for those who are in the DO schools with high stats. Same thing goes for SGU and the other caribbean schools. The average GPA once again in DO schools have grades replaced whereas US MD schools and SGU have them averaged. Once again, this makes a huge difference when listing out average GPAs. Seems kind of shaddy to me when DO schools compare themselves to MD schools and use that manipulated stats. Highly doubtful the cutoff for most DO schools is 22.
Here's another source

http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

 

[spicedmanna]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

Your school must have been the top 3-4 on that list. The top DO schools are hard to get into, but the majority of them are not, especially the ones that don't report their MCAT and GPAs. As a DO student, you are grouped with all DO schools as a whole, which may not be fair for those who are in the DO schools with high stats. Same thing goes for SGU and the other caribbean schools. The average GPA once again in DO schools have grades replaced whereas US MD schools and SGU have them averaged. Once again, this makes a huge difference when listing out average GPAs. Seems kind of shaddy to me when DO schools compare themselves to MD schools and use that manipulated stats. Highly doubtful the cutoff for most DO schools is 22.
Here's another source

http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

Yes, but you are missing the point completely. The central point is that in a room full of medical students, undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores are not going to be the most important factors to success as a medical student and as a physician. Granted, there is probably some sort of general threshold that is good enough for success, but after that, it isn't going to be a robust predictor.

You cite these averages as if they are something deciding. Well, let me tell you, it won't matter too much when you are in medical student. There are other factors that are going to be more important once you get into medical school. Indeed, there are other factors that can also be used in deciding admissions and predicting success in medical school and beyond, such as creative potential, background and history. Presumably, osteopathic medical schools recognize this and perhaps emphasize, weigh more heavily, other criteria. Since osteopathic medical schools produce fine physicians, I will argue that they are, on average, choosing students with at least sufficient academic ability and/or intelligence and that their focus on other factors in the admissions process is proving to have a sufficient level of robustness in predicting success. Once you are in medical school, there are a host of other criteria that are going to matter a lot more in predicting future success than your past GPA and MCAT scores.

Anyway, please refrain from making this an MD vs. DO argument. It's about foreign vs. domestic medical schools.

 

[Medicfletch]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

Your school must have been the top 3-4 on that list. The top DO schools are hard to get into, but the majority of them are not, especially the ones that don't report their MCAT and GPAs. As a DO student, you are grouped with all DO schools as a whole, which may not be fair for those who are in the DO schools with high stats. Same thing goes for SGU and the other caribbean schools. The average GPA once again in DO schools have grades replaced whereas US MD schools and SGU have them averaged. Once again, this makes a huge difference when listing out average GPAs. Seems kind of shaddy to me when DO schools compare themselves to MD schools and use that manipulated stats. Highly doubtful the cutoff for most DO schools is 22.
Here's another source

http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

Your second source is based on the first. You are essentially using the same source twice to argue a pointless debate.

 

[ILikeFood]

OP, what DO school did you get into?

 

[ShyRem]

1.

 

[amikhchi]

If it makes you feel any better I'm in somewhat the same predicament.

rejected from nearly all US allo schools, applied US osteo schools rather late (still verifying) and been accepted SGU for this january. But i am not going to go SGU, I'm going to stay here hope for the best and retake the MCAT and work as an EMT for a while in the event I do not get into a school for fall '09.

Why did I make the choice? not the money at all... mainly the living experience (3rd world country) and the fact that if i'm not going into internal medicine or family practice (or any of the more common residencies) i will most likely not get in...

I guess if you want to don't want to do one of those "lifestyle" residencies (forget what they are) then SGU would be a fine choice... then again, i've never lived away from home so I would think making a choice to just up and move to another country for a few years within a week is a big decision to make on such short notice...

merry xmas

 

[rkaz]

If it makes you feel any better I'm in somewhat the same predicament.

rejected from nearly all US allo schools, applied US osteo schools rather late (still verifying) and been accepted SGU for this january. But i am not going to go SGU, I'm going to stay here hope for the best and retake the MCAT and work as an EMT for a while in the event I do not get into a school for fall '09.

Why did I make the choice? not the money at all... mainly the living experience (3rd world country) and the fact that if i'm not going into internal medicine or family practice (or any of the more common residencies) i will most likely not get in...

I guess if you want to don't want to do one of those "lifestyle" residencies (forget what they are) then SGU would be a fine choice... then again, i've never lived away from home so I would think making a choice to just up and move to another country for a few years within a week is a big decision to make on such short notice...

merry xmas

Ask the admissions office if it isn't possible to defer your acceptance until August. That way you will have time to apply to DO schools... and if you are accepted there, great, you are all set. If not accepted to DO school, you can still matriculate at SGU in the fall. I don't think SGU grants deferments usually, but if you haven't paid your deposit yet or accepted their acceptance... than maybe? I know it's easier to get accepted to the Jan class versus the August class.

I personally lucked out, as I had originally applied to SGU last year for January 09. However, after reading about DO programs, I would strongly prefer to attend DO programs (in sururban/urban areas) over SGU. After my file was complete at SGU (but before interviewing), I was allowed to change my application from January to August. I am happy with this, as I still have SGU as a backup, but can withdraw my application from there once I get a DO school acceptance. I don't know if you can change your matriculation semester after the acceptance has been granted, but I figure it's worth to call and ask. Good luck.

 

[WDeagle]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

Your school must have been the top 3-4 on that list. The top DO schools are hard to get into, but the majority of them are not, especially the ones that don't report their MCAT and GPAs. As a DO student, you are grouped with all DO schools as a whole, which may not be fair for those who are in the DO schools with high stats. Same thing goes for SGU and the other caribbean schools. The average GPA once again in DO schools have grades replaced whereas US MD schools and SGU have them averaged. Once again, this makes a huge difference when listing out average GPAs. Seems kind of shaddy to me when DO schools compare themselves to MD schools and use that manipulated stats. Highly doubtful the cutoff for most DO schools is 22.
Here's another source
http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

There is something sketchy about the stats given on that website. I remember seeing the same page with similar(maybe the same) numbers several years ago(when i was a sophomore in college around 2004). The school i go to is on the bottom of that list and the MCAT score is off by 4 points. Perhaps you do have a good argument that there might be a big difference between specific DO schools. Either way everyone else has a point in that what you do in undergrad doesnt necessarily correlate with success in medical school.

RIP this thread.

 

[cardmagi]

These answers are all really great guys. I really appreciate your it.

Can anyone point me to a source where I can read about DO residency opportunities outperforming Foreign MD residencies?

Thanks.

 

[tkim]

If you plan to do a lot of international medical work, like mission work or WHO for example, you might be better off with an MD just because it's a more universally recognized credential at this time (the U.S. version of the DO degree has been achieving more recognition in recent years but is not yet universal).

Like others have pointed out, mission work is treated separately - as medical teams may have people from all over the world.

Telling people that the "MD is universally recognized" is a falsehood. Most of the time people tout the USMD as being the universal medical degree. We're not even talking about the USMD, we're talking Carib MD.

I once posted a link to the SGU website that listed the countries SGU grads can obtain licenses. Somewhere about 40-50 countries. DO's have practice rights at a handful more.

But let's be honest. There are a small percentage of people who will want to practice in a foreign country, and very few automatically grant you a license based on your med school diploma's origin.

 

[theraball]

Like others have pointed out, mission work is treated separately - as medical teams may have people from all over the world.

Telling people that the "MD is universally recognized" is a falsehood. Most of the time people tout the USMD as being the universal medical degree. We're not even talking about the USMD, we're talking Carib MD.

I once posted a link to the SGU website that listed the countries SGU grads can obtain licenses. Somewhere about 40-50 countries. DO's have practice rights at a handful more.

But let's be honest. There are a small percentage of people who will want to practice in a foreign country, and very few automatically grant you a license based on your med school diploma's origin.

I stand corrected. I must admit, I didn't realize that SGU and other offshore schools had limited practice rights in other countries; I thought that a board-certified physician in the United States, from a U.S. residency program, would be pretty well recognized regardless of what school they attended.

Although, tkim, please note that I said "more universally recognized credential at this time" in reference to the MD. I didn't claim that it's "the universal medical degree" as you put it.

 

[Phospholipid]

Foreign medical schools as a whole vs DO, DO is a much better choice. SGU vs DO schools is more of a blur, as SGU stats (3.4 GPA, averaged out and not with grades replaced, and 26-27 MCAT) are higher than most DO schools except for maybe 4-5. Many SGU students either did not apply to osteopathic programs and could have easily gotten into one or, got into DO programs and chose SGU. SGU match list is up at the same level as top DO schools in terms of quality residency programs that they match their students. If you work hard at either schools, you will do well in both.
I apologize if i changed this to a DO vs MD. I just wanted to state the facts. The data i use in my posts are very close to the actual stats as I'm not making these things up as i go. I know it doesn't look good to students in DO schools when many DO programs have average MCAT of 22 and below (especially the schools that don't report), but it is the truth, i promise.
We can say osteopathic schools have lower average because they look deeper into the candidate, that is just our excuse of saying we have lower stats. MD schools are able to be much more selective, and can easily find just the same qualification of many DO students (research, extracurricular, etc..), but with higher GPA and MCAT, thus saying the reason osteopathic schools have lower stats is because they look deeper into an applicant is not valid.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I apologize if i changed this to a DO vs MD.

And yet, it seems we're still trying to drive this car over the cliff.

Just to remind everyone <again>, this thread is about choosing between a DO acceptance and SGU.

 

[rajaholick]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

fwiw, those stats are for the entering class of 2006
meaning the applicants applied in 2005
in the past 3 years the gpa and mcat averages have significantly increased at D.O. schools
for example msu shows 24.9 average mcat on your list, while last year the average was a 27

 

[spicedmanna]

Foreign medical schools as a whole vs DO, DO is a much better choice. SGU vs DO schools is more of a blur, as SGU stats (3.4 GPA, averaged out and not with grades replaced, and 26-27 MCAT) are higher than most DO schools except for maybe 4-5. Many SGU students either did not apply to osteopathic programs and could have easily gotten into one or, got into DO programs and chose SGU. SGU match list is up at the same level as top DO schools in terms of quality residency programs that they match their students. If you work hard at either schools, you will do well in both.
I apologize if i changed this to a DO vs MD. I just wanted to state the facts. The data i use in my posts are very close to the actual stats as I'm not making these things up as i go. I know it doesn't look good to students in DO schools when many DO programs have average MCAT of 22 and below (especially the schools that don't report), but it is the truth, i promise.
We can say osteopathic schools have lower average because they look deeper into the candidate, that is just our excuse of saying we have lower stats. MD schools are able to be much more selective, and can easily find just the same qualification of many DO students (research, extracurricular, etc..), but with higher GPA and MCAT, thus saying the reason osteopathic schools have lower stats is because they look deeper into an applicant is not valid.

Wonderful. I'm so glad and reassured that someone as esteemed and with much experience as you, armed with up-to-date facts, has shown by citing numerous studies that MCAT scores and uGPA's are the bomb-diggity, that higher numbers correlate with higher selectivity and that this correlates with better candidates and consequently better medical students and physicians. Clearly you know what you are talking about much better than medical students, residents, fellows, and attendings.

Get back to work. Let's all of us stop with this fruitless MD vs. DO debate.

 

[digitlnoize]

In an attempt to rescue this pitiful excuse for a thread, I'll add my 2 cents.

I went to a DO school rather than waste another year reapplying to MD schools...I don't know for sure if I would have gone to just ANY DO school, but I really believed in the LECOM-B curriculum and I do not regret my decision at all.

For most specialties, the MD vs. DO thing is a complete non-issue. For a few it is a very, very minor issue.

Regardless, OP, I would ABSOLUTELY choose DO over C-MD. I am loving my time at LECOM-B and don't regret my choice at all. I know that I've learned about 4x the material this far that my MD friends have at their schools...for whatever that's worth. It should all even out in the end, but hopefully I'll have covered some material multiple times that they have only seen once...

Good luck with your decision!

 

[RySerr21]

In an attempt to rescue this pitiful excuse for a thread, I'll add my 2 cents.

I went to a DO school rather than waste another year reapplying to MD schools...I don't know for sure if I would have gone to just ANY DO school, but I really believed in the LECOM-B curriculum and I do not regret my decision at all.

For most specialties, the MD vs. DO thing is a complete non-issue. For a few it is a very, very minor issue.

Regardless, OP, I would ABSOLUTELY choose DO over C-MD. I am loving my time at LECOM-B and don't regret my choice at all. I know that I've learned about 4x the material this far that my MD friends have at their schools...for whatever that's worth. It should all even out in the end, but hopefully I'll have covered some material multiple times that they have only seen once...

Good luck with your decision!

how do you know that? and why do you think that? PBL?

 

[brianjg]

Check out this link for some more "overall" DO statistics: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/ASROME2006.pdf
I've been looking for specific school statistics for DO schools, wouldn't it be nice if DO schools had nice statistics like the MSAR provides. But, if anyone knows a creditable source, please post it.
BTW, some MD schools do not average grades, I know of UND as one...but they don't use AMCAS either. As for me, I applied to both US MD and DO, I've been accepted to two DO, no word on the MD yet. At first I was worried about the MD vs DO, but now I'm over it and will actually have a hard time turning down a DO acceptance if I get into an MD program. P.S. I wouldn't go foreign just to get an MD, there's not THAT much difference.

 

[Phospholipid]

I know that I've learned about 4x the material this far that my MD friends have at their schools

So you score 4x better than your MD friends on step 1. Regardless, if you learned more than your MD friends (4x might be quite a bit of an exageration there), it is because you are a better student and NOT because you are in a osteopathic school.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

A couple things:

1. The stats on those links are probably 4-5 years old, at the least.
2. You are completely talking out your ass. You do not know what you are talking about, nor do you appear to have any kind of frame of reference to make these claims.

I used to work in the emergency room of the nation's busiest Level II trauma center. I went to undergrad with numerous people who are now at allopathic and osteopathic medical schools, many of whom I still keep in touch with. Including a guy at SGU. Now I am a student at an osteopathic medical school, and I am taught by MD's and DO's. I do have a frame of reference.

One of our anatomy professors used to teach at NYU. Another one of our professors also teaches at Medical College of Georgia, and does something with the ER residency program at Cook County in Chicago too. These guys have been around. Do you really think that they all got together and decided to scale back the curriculum because of an inferior quality of student?

 

[PunkmedGirl]

So you score 4x better than your MD friends on step 1. Regardless, if you learned more than your MD friends (4x might be quite a bit of an exageration there), it is because you are a better student and NOT because you are in a osteopathic school.

What is the point of your argument?? Sounds like you are not interested in becoming a DO so why are you in this forum?? You make arguments with outdated statistics in hopes to expose the truth about how DO applicants are of the 'lesser' quality or are MD rejects and how an education at an osteopathic school is somehow inferior to an allopathic education. I really could care less about what you think about DO applicants, but if you want to discuss that then take it to the MD vs DO thread where you can rant and rave to your hearts content.

 

[Pghboy18]

And yet, it seems we're still trying to drive this car over the cliff.

Just to remind everyone <again>, this thread is about choosing between a DO acceptance and SGU.

I've asked this question to some people. Most premeds that I talk to are pretty much split. Some can't get over the D.O. thing, others can't get past the notion of going to the caribbean.

That said, EVERY single advisor and actual doctor (all were MDs in my case) that I've talked to has been in favor of the U.S. DO route. Every single one. (I know that I haven't talked to every advisor and MD out there)

I think that if I were in the position to make this choice, the second group of opinions would probably have persuaded me to go DO hands down.

 

[Terpskins99]

On top of all of these posts, I would also like to note that this question is posted in a DO forum...People who are heading towards/really interested in DO schools would tell you to go DO--why would they tell you to go IMG route? If this was placed in the Caribbean forum by the moderator, I'm sure you would get different answers. Bottom line, it seems like the facts state that if you want to practice in the U.S. that you should stay in the U.S. for medical school.

And with that in mind... OP, you would be wise to ask the same question of the St. Georges folks in their forum.

**************
update: look looks like you already did.

 

[digitlnoize]

how do you know that? and why do you think that? PBL?

Because I have friends at US MD schools and I've talked with them...and obviously, I know how much I've learned...

Again, I'm sure we even out by the end, but I know at this point we've covered about 70 chapters or so across all subjects, plus anatomy and histology, and my MD counterparts have finished anatomy, biochem, and some random stuff like public health...

Just my personal observation...

 

[JaggerPlate]

So you score 4x better than your MD friends on step 1. Regardless, if you learned more than your MD friends (4x might be quite a bit of an exageration there), it is because you are a better student and NOT because you are in a osteopathic school.

Yup ... he's shooting for an 800. You're a troll ... plain and simple. You've come here quoting 4 year old stats, claiming SGU match lists look like those from top DO schools (which is absolutely hilarious by the way ... take a better look at the total numbers: if SGU has a graduating class of 500 people and 2 match surgery ... no, this isn't good), and made yourself very clear. I suggest that everyone simple report Phospo as a troll and let this junk die. The original question has been more than answered.

 

[MossPoh]

And also, to echo what TT said... You can't measure the med student by the MCAT score. It never ceases to amaze me how many brilliant people are at my school, even though our average MCAT was 25. Also, remember there are a lot of people like me who hadn't even had all the classes the MCAT tests when we took the MCAT. (I hadn't had physics in college or high school and my college bio/organic/chem was 1-3 years old each)

Oh good times. I was 5 years removed from a lot of my classes, didn't have organic II or lab and had someone close to me die before hand and still did ok on the MCAT.

Anyway, I just think DO is the wise idea. I know you're in the DO forums, so it is going going to be biased. I also know that SGU can produce great physicians. I've met some. I just feel it is a safer bet. If you have some phobia with the letters and have a hard time writing O's but M's seem to flow alright, then go Carrib MD.

 

[Terpskins99]

Foreign medical schools as a whole vs DO, DO is a much better choice. SGU vs DO schools is more of a blur, as SGU stats (3.4 GPA, averaged out and not with grades replaced, and 26-27 MCAT) are higher than most DO schools except for maybe 4-5. Many SGU students either did not apply to osteopathic programs and could have easily gotten into one or, got into DO programs and chose SGU. SGU match list is up at the same level as top DO schools in terms of quality residency programs that they match their students.

This is all spin city and frankly, not at all useful to those that need objective information to make their decisions on.

Here are some cold hard facts (comparing St. Georges to PCOM; which would probably be considered one of those "top" DO schools... though none of the DO schools are actually ranked against one another):

Comparing the 2008 match lists of PCOM versus SGU.
(keep in mind: St. Georges has listed 484 matched residents... which means they're including those people that hadn't matched in prior years, but did manage to match in 2008. PCOM is only listing their 2008 graduating class.)

Some highlights:
Diagnostic Radiology: PCOM 4 - SGU 1
Orthopedics: PCOM 5 - SGU 2
Otolaryngology: PCOM 3 - SGU 0
Ophthalmology: PCOM 2 - SGU 0

You will find a similar match profile at most other DO schools.

 

[digitlnoize]

So you score 4x better than your MD friends on step 1. Regardless, if you learned more than your MD friends (4x might be quite a bit of an exageration there), it is because you are a better student and NOT because you are in a osteopathic school.

AGAIN, I'd like to make clear that I do believe my MD friends will catch up to me by the time all is said and done...although I do feel that I may cover the material more times than they do...

I would also like to stress that I do NOT feel this is because I went to a DO school. I think it is because of the awesome curriculum (for me, at least) at LECOM-B...which is FAR from your "typical" DO school.

MD=DO as far as I'm concerned. Having worked in hospitals with both, I can't tell the fraking difference without looking at their credentials...

 

[tkim]

Here's a couple of advantages between the DO and IMG MD that may factor in during the Match and residency:

1) During the Match, as an IMG if you fail Step II CS, you are automatically removed from the Match and will not Match that year. Granted, most people pass, but if you are that small percentage of people who fail, you are screwed for that year and will have to sit out for a year.

Failing the COMLEX PE will not automatically withdraw you from the Match.

2) In most states, as an IMG you will not be able to get a full, unrestricted license to practice, and therefore moonlight, during residency, as soon as USMDs and USDOs:

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

3) In a lot of states, you have unlimited attempts to pass COMLEX 3. There are limits for the USMLE. Though, if you can't pass the Steps within the first or second try, something's wrong with your test taking skills and that's a possible red flag.

#1 is a more troubling issue than #2 for most people. I would to hate be withdrawn from the Match because of something as silly as the CS. #3 shouldn't be a problem for virtually everyone.

 

[AngryBaby]

This is all spin city and frankly, not at all useful to those that need objective information to make their decisions on.

Here are some cold hard facts (comparing St. Georges to PCOM; which would probably be considered one of those "top" DO schools... though none of the DO schools are actually ranked against one another):

Comparing the 2008 match lists of PCOM versus SGU.
(keep in mind: St. Georges has listed 484 matched residents... which means they're including those people that hadn't matched in prior years, but did manage to match in 2008. PCOM is only listing their 2008 graduating class.)

Some highlights:
Diagnostic Radiology: PCOM 4 - SGU 1
Orthopedics: PCOM 5 - SGU 2
Otolaryngology: PCOM 3 - SGU 0
Ophthalmology: PCOM 2 - SGU 0

You will find a similar match profile at most other DO schools.

Actually, the way the SGU match list works online is that if a grad matches into an intern or prelim year then that is what's listed in the PGY-1. You need to click on "PGY-2" at the top of the page to get a better idea of where everyone really matched into. Doing this and using your given specialties from PCOM as the reference we have the following numbers:

Diagnostic Rads: PCOM 4 - SGU 14
Orthopedics: PCOM 5 - SGU 2
Otolaryngology: PCOM 3 - SGU 0
Ophthalmology: PCOM 2 - SGU 1

One may also want to check out how many of the DO matches are in osteopathic vs. allopathic residencies.

I'm an SGU student starting my final basic sciences term in Jan. According to the anecdotal info I've been hearing a number US programs prefer a DO over a US-IMG all else being equal. I think the waters get muddied when you consider exactly how much osteopaths are favored over Carib MDs, e.g. how much better do my scores and LORs be to have to compete (specifically compared to SGU/AUC/Saba/Ross), and that the AOA and osteopathy in general have their own issues IMHO.

Anyway just wanted to correct the match list stats, I'm not here to prove I can pee the furthest. Generally speaking I think everyone would agree that osteopathy is the safest decision of the two.

 

[Dissonance]

I’m going to attempt to put this to rest .

Lets be real about the IMG match statistics. There is an approximately 47% match rate for *ALL* IMG’s. This is NOT realistic concerning the Big 4 carib schools (SGU, AUC,Saba,Ross) . The match rate for these schools is approximately 80% or higher for US-citizens graduating from these schools. Keep in mind that IMG’s can participate in matching outside of ERAS and the NRMP, so pre-match offers factor in to these statistics. SGU and AUC are generally considered more ‘safe’ schools to attend because of the level of support given to current students in terms of clinical rotation slots and have mildly more rigorous admissions criteria than Ross, and possibly Saba. Ross is generally known for having trouble with its clinical sites and rotations and like many Caribbean schools known for admitting an overabundance of students and letting attrition level out the classes, while still collecting some of the tuition. The attrition rate is higher at Carib schools than at US schools, and for good reason. The admissions standards in most cases are lower, the schools are located in another country, lifestyle is potentially different and the schools may possibly admit students incapable of completing the curriculum etc.

The important question is, is there a high likelyhood if you go to one of the Big 4 that you can return to the US and land a residency. YES. Is there a possibility of landing ROADE/competitive surg. Spec. from one of these schools. YES.

Is it likely that matching a competitive specialty will occur? **NO**.

Lets examine the climate for IMG’s currently. There have been several new MD and DO schools which have opened up here in the US, not to mention a planned increase in US mainland school seats over the next 10 years. What this means for IMG’s is that the competition for a FIXED number of residency slots is going to get stiffer. There is an argument that there will be students who instead matriculated into the new schools instead of having to go offshore for education and this will essentially offset in the long run, but in my opinion this is just semantics. You have to look at it statistically. DO graduates have the ability to match into both osteopathic and allopathic residencies. Simply by numbers alone, this gives a wider array of residency opportunity for the DO grad than the IMG grad who only has access to ACGME residencies, since AOA (DO) residencies do not admit MD’s. Both DO and IMG enter theAllopathic match as independent applicant status, however it is widely known that an AMG DO will, in many cases with a large majority of programs, have more potential success than an IMG in matching in general.

Lets distinguish between the bias between carib vs. DO. In terms of residency, it is true that there is a possibility of some allo programs not admitting DO’s and also these same programs or other programs not admitting IMG’s, however the bias against US DO graduates in matching allo residencies is generally considered to be much less prevalent. MD vs. DO on your coat? Well as much as we all hate this subject, it realistically is valid for someone who is completing or wants to gain admission to a professional program to know that they will receive some degree of prestige and respect from the general public and hospital workers etc. for the amount of work it takes to become a physician. However, in the workplace, the issue of MD or DO is a NON-ISSUE. There literally is NO distinction, separation, or discrimination between allopathic or osteopathic physicians in the hospital/practice etc. For verification of this fact all you need is input from a practicing D.O. which will quell whichever rumors abound SDN.

So what about matching into a Canadian residency from a Carib school. If you do this Canada has an agreement with LCME Schools and canadian residency grads can freely come to practie in the US, although individual state licensing laws vary. CARMS which is the Canadian version of the NRMP basically has ridiculous clauses and a high discrimination towards IMG’s. ( For more info on this plus additional facts PM me). If you are a USDO graduate and attend an ACGME residency in the US, due to the agreement with LCME Canadian schools the ability to be licensed by individual Canadian provinces is more likely, but a DO matching a Canadian residency slot is basically out of the question. If you complete an AOA residency in the US as a DO, I’m not currently aware of accreditation status which Canada gives to AOA residency grads. Essentially it is in your favor to attend a US school either DO or MD which takes international students, of this there are several. I assume here we are considering that the OP is a US citizen or US permanent resident prior to going to med school. As a carib grad IMG non US citizen you have to have J-1 or Hb-1 visa sponsored by the residency, and there are varying degrees of residencies which are willing to do his, which reduces your chance of residency matching even further. If you are a US citizen IMG the visa issue becomes a non issue and is of course more favorable.

Lastly, most pre-meds or medical students for that matter can speculate but the majority have no idea what they want to specialize in, and these decisions will probably change during med school. Lets be realistic here. Attending a Carib school (SGU) can match you pretty effectively into primary care if you are a US citizen, and with a high match rate at that. If you find during med school that you don’t want to do primary care and want a ROADE/Ortho/nsurg etc. it will take exceptional step scores, rotation grades, class rank, research etc coming from a carib school. While this can be done, the match rate for people even with these statistics into uber competitive specialties is very dismal. However, USDO graduates have a much much higher statistical probability of matching these specialties even with not so amazing class rank/score etc. Which can be verified by examining their scores and matchlist. (lets not forget about osteopathic residencies as well included in DO placements). Either way, a competitive specialty is hard to match because that’s exactly what it is…Competitive. As a US grad you are fighting against other US grads for a spot. As an IMG the fight for a competitive specialty is significantly amplified.

Debtwise lets also examine carib vs. DO. They can both be expensive. WVSOM is similar to SGU in terms of tuition, super expensive. Saba is the cheapest of the 4 but does not have federally subsidized loans. Think about the state of our economy currently. Would you want to bank on it that the other Big 3 carib schools can keep their federal loans? If they lose them then its down to only private loans which can essentially almost make pursuing primary care prohibitive when u consider the interest rates. Whereas USDO will always have federally subsidized loans, and there are USDO schools that have tuition which is almost that of some state MD schools, which can be significantly cheaper.

It seems clear that if the ultimate goal is to become a US practicing physician, attending a US school (MD or DO) will give you less hoops to jump through, more opportunities to match into various specialties, and less hassles with licensing and accreditation. In addition to that the possible financial pitfalls associated with med school, loans and debt, lend a more rosy outlook to mainland schools vs. carib Big 4. If the carib is your ONLY option, then it will still give you a chance to become a physician, just make sure to approach this route with reasonable expectations.

 

[eforest]

How well you do in the match, etc, really has a lot to do with you. The school does make a difference, I'm not saying it doesn't, but I go to a top 25 MD school and was told my the dean that because I have not put forth a stellar enough performance, I will likely not match into Ophtho, Neurosurg, Plastic surgery, and a couple others. She also said I am not in the running for top tier internal medicine programs.

Going into medical school, I was of the mind that, "oh, graduates from this school match into blah blah, therefore if I go there, I can match into blah blah" It's not that simple.

As an aside, I've worked with and been trained by DO's and St Georges graduates all of whom seem to be doing just fine

OP- congrats on getting acceptances into med school! And, good luck with whatever pathway you choose to take.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

And with that in mind... OP, you would be wise to ask the same question of the St. Georges folks in their forum.

**************
update: look looks like you already did.

The majority of the people that did the Carib route on that site are saying that if they could do it all over again, they would go the DO route.

I think that says alot.

 

[Terpskins99]

The important question is, is there a high likelyhood if you go to one of the Big 4 that you can return to the US and land a residency. YES. Is there a possibility of landing ROADE/competitive surg. Spec. from one of these schools. YES.

Is it likely that matching a competitive specialty will occur? **NO**.

Not just competitive specialties. Competitive training sites as well.

Last year, someone from our DO program matched into Johns Hopkins Neurology. According to your website, you haven't matched into Hopkins for any residency in the past 7 years.

 

[Dissonance]

Not just competitive specialties. Competitive training sites as well.

Last year, someone from our DO program matched into Johns Hopkins Neurology. According to your website, you haven't matched into Hopkins for any residency in the past 7 years.

I am not an SGU student, I'm a canadian mid level provider, who is now a permanent US resident. I have several family members and friends who are attending SGU and AUC, However I am an applicant in the US cycle currently. I have detailed information on the canadian match, and considered attending a carribbean school in an attempt to return to canada, however becoming a US resident and applying to US schools is clearly the smartest route. As you can clearly see, I was advocating for attending a US school and detailing the pitfalls of attending offshore education.

 

[obbobbo]

http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

Your school must have been the top 3-4 on that list. The top DO schools are hard to get into, but the majority of them are not, especially the ones that don't report their MCAT and GPAs. As a DO student, you are grouped with all DO schools as a whole, which may not be fair for those who are in the DO schools with high stats. Same thing goes for SGU and the other caribbean schools. The average GPA once again in DO schools have grades replaced whereas US MD schools and SGU have them averaged. Once again, this makes a huge difference when listing out average GPAs. Seems kind of shaddy to me when DO schools compare themselves to MD schools and use that manipulated stats. Highly doubtful the cutoff for most DO schools is 22.
Here's another source

http://medicalschooladmission.blogspot.com/2007/12/osteopathic-medical-schools-mcat-scores.html

Thank you for the links to school statistics, but really you need to check your facts better. These links have data for entering classes from years ago! First the blogspot link is hardly a reputable link for stats (one post total and back in 2007). Second, follow the link for the KCOM.edu link and then check the source code. You will see that these stats were created 3 years ago! (That means the scores are even older!) MCAT and GPA scores have risen considerably since then for DO school. Please do your homework BEFORE you start throwing out statistics!

While interviewing at schools they all reported last years GPA and MCAT statistics. One of the schools I went to was WVSOM and their MCAT was at least a 24 (none of the schools I interviewed at were lower than that).

Oh, and while we're at it, I chose DO versus SGU. I don't have anything against either and have worked with great docs from both areas. Good Luck!

 

[mochief2000]

first, i would like to remind you that you asked in a Pre-DO forum if DO vs Caribbean the best route. Honestly, you won't get a unbaised answer here. i was reading this forum and reading so many misconceptions and other stuff. let me point out a few things. if you go to well established Carib schools like ross and SGU you can't go wrong. I mean, people say all kinds of things on this forum but forget Ross and SGu been around for like 30 years. Really as far as education wise. I would feel like these schools would hands down bet the new DO schools and on par with the top.
It really comes down to location. I mean, why leave the US if you don't have too. Most of my classmates get home sick....really home sick after a while. Their is bias against DO and IMG, but DO are working harder to stop the divide. If you need evidence that carib grads do well, then look at ross's or SGU residency match list from the last cycle. It speaks for itself. actually i think its funny because a few DO schools rotate with Ross and SGU students(let not forget the controversial issue with SGU buying out all the NY hospitals for its students).
either way you go to get into a very well respected residency at a top program it is going to be hard. With that said, you should go DO, mostly because the always have a back-up. its called their own residency. if a DO wanted to be a surgeon the odds and probability are with him, DO+MD residency (esp if you want to be a orthopedic surgeon)

the statement US MD> US DO>US IMG is true in most cases

side note: people give a lot of ancedotal evidence. my friend who is a resident says....or my moms uncle cousin said this. for real people?

 

[moldovanits]

Considering that you are "pre-health", I can see where the ******ation comes from. I've got to tell you that things are not nearly as simple as they seem to you.

There are people in my class who got like 24's on the MCAT, who are every bit the equal of guys I went to undergrad with, who got high-30's.

Personally, I though the MCAT was easy. I thought it was a complete bull**** test, and I was extremely disappointed with a 33. On the other hand, I have classmates who thought it was the hardest test ever, got mid-20's, and are now outperforming me in medical school.

And there's more to GPA than just the numbers. My overall GPA is 2.7. Never mind the fact that I graduated with a 2.2, and then went back for a post-bac, pulled a 3.5 in 80+ hours of upper-level science courses.

And what about engineering majors? You go to a "big name" engineering school, such as my undergrad, U of Texas, and the GPA's are going to be a hell of a lot lower than what you see from the average pre-med, who goes on pick-a-prof every semester to find the easiest professors.

What background you come from makes a difference too.

There is a lot less separating a 3.2 25 MCAT student from the 3.8 35 MCAT student than you would like to think. Once that 3.2/25 student gets to med school, and suddenly doesn't have to work to support him/herself, and can focus on studying all the time, its a whole new ballgame. I 100% **** you not about this. And if you are the latter, congratulations. You worked hard to achieve that, and you should be proud. But if you think that makes you exceptional in some way, then you are in for a big shock. I don't care if you go to Stanford or West Virginia. Someone will be better than you there.

very well said!!

 

[JaggerPlate]

the statement US MD> US DO>US IMG

Yup ... for most US allo residencies obviously. However, for some of the less competitive specialties, I'd say US MD really not much above US DO, but we have to remember that the residencies ARE for US MD students technically.



By the way ... something is bothering me in this thread and I must point it out:

Am I wrong here or does FMG = American citizen who went out of the US for medical school and is returning for clinicals/residency (mainly residency) and IMG = non-US citizen who went to med school somewhere else and is trying to land a residency in the US??

 

[DrFraud]

The majority of the people that did the Carib route on that site are saying that if they could do it all over again, they would go the DO route.

I think that says alot.

I currently go to AUC in St. Maarten, spent 2 years there, and now I am in clinic in the U.S. Overall, my 2 years there was a great experience for what I learned in class, the people I met, and also, having the chance to experience life outside the U.S, including all the good and bad. Overall, there was much more good than bad. I just found out that our class had a 93% step 1 pass rate, which affirms to me that the academics at my school are solid.

If I had to do it all over again, absolutely, I would. That's not to say everyone in my class was happy. In general, Medical School makes a lot of people miserable, they complain, wish they were going to school somewhere else, etc......but I felt that I fit in in St. Maartin, even though the type of living on an Island is definetly not for everyone. I'm the type of person who likes to camp and do outdoor stuff but if someone is squirmish about not having the ammenities in America I would definiely advise an applicant to rethink going to St. Maartin.

Who knows, theres a great chance I would have been equally happy somewhere else, but I can only speak about where I went.....

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

OP, if you want an easier time to match in the U.S., go to an American med school. Period. It is significantly more difficult to match in the U.S. as an FMG vs. USMG.
This is what you want to look at (HINT- WHAT REALLY MATTERS): http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf


Noteworthy highlights:

51.9 percent of U.S. citizens trained in international medical schools were matched, a slight increase from the
2007 figure of 50.0 percent.
​

​

The match rate of non-U.S. citizens trained in international medical schools continued to decline, from 48.9​

percent in 2006 to 45.5 percent in 2007 and 42.4 percent in 2008.


.....While the #'s of FMG's matching have slightly increased (1%, basically irrelevant), the overall percentage is still significantly less than a US grad. DO's matching into allo residencies are still higher than FMGs, and if you combine Osteo residencies the overall match rate for DO's between both U.S. Matches blows foreign applicants out of the water.
I'm not degrading carribean schools by any means, just if you want to come back home you should probably stick around the states.

 

[rkaz]

Noteworthy highlights:

51.9 percent of U.S. citizens trained in international medical schools were matched, a slight increase from the 2007 figure of 50.0 percent. The match rate of non-U.S. citizens trained in international medical schools continued to decline, from 48.9 percent in 2006 to 45.5 percent in 2007 and 42.4 percent in 2008.​

This is good information. However, I think this info would be very beneficial if the OP was comparing DO schools to Caribbean/international medical schools as a WHOLE. The only difference in this situation is that the OP is specifically looking at SGU... and according to SGU's websites, 99% of US students at SGU obtained ACGME residencies. http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf (see page 3) It doesn't say how competitive those residencies were, but simply that graduates were very likely to obtain residencies in the US.
That is why in this case I don't think we can equate SGU with other international schools.... as SGU's 99% is very different from the earlier stated 51% match rate of other international schools.

(I'm not saying that I disagree that DO option is better than SGU, as many SGU students posting on ValueMD say themselves that they would have preferred to have gone DO rather than SGU if they had known more about the DO option earlier. I am simply trying to provide factual information to show that going to SGU would still be a nice choice, as compared to other foreign schools. The OP can still have plenty of opportunities to be successful either way.)

 

[DrFraud]

(I'm not saying that I disagree that DO option is better than SGU, as many SGU students posting on ValueMD say themselves that they would have preferred to have gone DO rather than SGU if they had known more about the DO option earlier. I am simply trying to provide factual information to show that going to SGU would still be a nice choice, as compared to other foreign schools. The OP can still have plenty of opportunities to be successful either way.)

In the spirit of being factual I'm not sure when 2-3 became many, but this does not really matter, as I fully acknowlage that living in the Carib. for 2 years can very difficult for some of the students I know and it is highly likely that a thread on a Carib. form will contain posts from students wishing they did something else.

 

[DrFraud]

OP, if you want an easier time to match in the U.S., go to an American med school. Period. It is significantly more difficult to match in the U.S. as an FMG vs. USMG.
This is what you want to look at (HINT- WHAT REALLY MATTERS): http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf


Noteworthy highlights:

51.9 percent of U.S. citizens trained in international medical schools were matched, a slight increase from the
2007 figure of 50.0 percent.
​

​

For programs where students are rotating through U.S. hospitals during their clerkship, this number is much much higher.

 

[digitlnoize]

Living in the Carib. for 2 years can very difficult for some of the students I know and it is highly likely that a thread on a Carib. form will contain posts from students wishing they did something else.

This is not to be overlooked. A girl I went to grade school with went to a Carib. Vet School. I was jealous (this was before I had even thought about going to med school, and thus knew nothing about this whole process).
Here's what she said:

"It sounds great, and it was. For the first few weeks. It got really old really fast. There are few of the comforts of home. A grocery store there is not the same as it is here. Might be good for vegans, but I miss my study food. Also, the housing sucks, there is no central air (and little air conditioning period), and the wet season is the worst thing ever. TV, internet and telephone exist, but in very rudimentary forms and go out constantly and the internet is slow."

Now, I don't know what school she was at...(I didn't ask, and we aren't in touch now, and weren't even at the time...I just happened to be around when she called a friend of mine...) but, having been to the Carib a couple times, I couldn't imagine trying to live there...unless you let me live in Sandals....hahaha.