Got Accepted to DO and St. Georges University. What to do?

[slick27]

From the patients perspective when they ask you where you wnet to medical school and they will, you can always be confident when you say blank and blank city (which would be in the US). Telling them you went to the caribbean, might not instill condfidence with them. Just my opinion, however I know that SGU provides quality education. A family friend of ours went to SGU and somehow became a neurosurgeon. It can happen, just keep working hard.

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[andexterouss]

This is good information. However, I think this info would be very beneficial if the OP was comparing DO schools to Caribbean/international medical schools as a WHOLE. The only difference in this situation is that the OP is specifically looking at SGU... and according to SGU's websites, 99% of US students at SGU obtained ACGME residencies. http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf (see page 3) It doesn't say how competitive those residencies were, but simply that graduates were very likely to obtain residencies in the US.
That is why in this case I don't think we can equate SGU with other international schools.... as SGU's 99% is very different from the earlier stated 51% match rate of other international schools.

(I'm not saying that I disagree that DO option is better than SGU, as many SGU students posting on ValueMD say themselves that they would have preferred to have gone DO rather than SGU if they had known more about the DO option earlier. I am simply trying to provide factual information to show that going to SGU would still be a nice choice, as compared to other foreign schools. The OP can still have plenty of opportunities to be successful either way.)

I'd be very careful taking any statement made on a school's website as fact especially carib schools. They have very slick marketing teams in newspapers and radio targeting the New York and California markets mostly.Is the 99% for first time match? or after second, third and fourth try??

DO first time allopathic match is somewhere in the 70s for those skipped the osteopatic match. I doubt SGU does better.

 

[Tired]

Does anybody actually believe that 99% number?

< . . . crickets . . . >

Yeah.

 

[Pghboy18]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that you can pitch your decision to go D.O. in an interview much more easily (ie. liked the osteopathic philosophy, knew I was interested in primary care, etc.) than you can the decision to go to the caribbean (I really wanted the letters M.D. after my name but couldn't get into a U.S. allopathic school).

Bottom line is that if you go to the caribbean, there's no way to spin it positively because everyone knows that it's a last resort. This is not true for D.O., which offers students different perspectives on certain topics in medicine.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

This is good information. However, I think this info would be very beneficial if the OP was comparing DO schools to Caribbean/international medical schools as a WHOLE. The only difference in this situation is that the OP is specifically looking at SGU... and according to SGU's websites, 99% of US students at SGU obtained ACGME residencies. http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf (see page 3) It doesn't say how competitive those residencies were, but simply that graduates were very likely to obtain residencies in the US.
That is why in this case I don't think we can equate SGU with other international schools.... as SGU's 99% is very different from the earlier stated 51% match rate of other international schools.

(I'm not saying that I disagree that DO option is better than SGU, as many SGU students posting on ValueMD say themselves that they would have preferred to have gone DO rather than SGU if they had known more about the DO option earlier. I am simply trying to provide factual information to show that going to SGU would still be a nice choice, as compared to other foreign schools. The OP can still have plenty of opportunities to be successful either way.)

I got the vibe that the OP was deciding between Carib vs. DO with residency placement as the deciding factor (OP, clarify or correct if you will). 99% match rate is definitely not accurate if they are talking about 1st time match. It's a marketing ploy. My school does the same thing with board pass rates (they say 98% 1st time pass, and it's NOT). Take this info with a grain of salt. Of course all med schools will eventually have 99% of their students placed in some sort of residency (or else they would just be providing degrees and nothing more), but we don't know how many match cycles SGU grads went through to match, or what they even matched into. The NRMP 51% comes from a combination of non-u.s. schools, so to believe that somehow SGU is matching 99% is far-fetched.

 

[JaggerPlate]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that you can pitch your decision to go D.O. in an interview much more easily (ie. liked the osteopathic philosophy, knew I was interested in primary care, etc.) than you can the decision to go to the caribbean (I really wanted the letters M.D. after my name but couldn't get into a U.S. allopathic school).

Bottom line is that if you go to the caribbean, there's no way to spin it positively because everyone knows that it's a last resort. This is not true for D.O., which offers students different perspectives on certain topics in medicine.

That's actually an interesting point ... never thought about it, but quite true (assuming you'd ever really need to explain, etc).

 

[DrFraud]

From the patients perspective when they ask you where you wnet to medical school and they will, you can always be confident when you say blank and blank city (which would be in the US). Telling them you went to the caribbean, might not instill condfidence with them. Just my opinion, however I know that SGU provides quality education. A family friend of ours went to SGU and somehow became a neurosurgeon. It can happen, just keep working hard.

As someone who has some more experience working with patients than you, patients have many concerns when they are sick, such as receiving quality competent care, support, and help, and not getting harmed by someone who is inexperienced.

When you start working with patients and it's your on your 20th hour your going to care much less about what a patient thinks about your school. You will want to complete your work and hopefully try your best to deliver the best care you can.

Patients that have had concerns about quality-of-care have these concerns based on how are being treated, and many patients who you see especially those who are chronically ill are better than you think at figuring out if you know what you are doing or you don't without having to ask about education.

 

[DrFraud]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that you can pitch your decision to go D.O. in an interview much more easily (ie. liked the osteopathic philosophy, knew I was interested in primary care, etc.) than you can the decision to go to the caribbean (I really wanted the letters M.D. after my name but couldn't get into a U.S. allopathic school).

Bottom line is that if you go to the caribbean, there's no way to spin it positively because everyone knows that it's a last resort. This is not true for D.O., which offers students different perspectives on certain topics in medicine.

If a PD/department wants to give preference to a DO, IMG, or FMG, it's not going to be based on what you pitch.

In general, if you are smart, you will apply to programs where you know they have taken grads in the past from your school and degree program and you should avoid wasting too much time applying to places that never take DOs. Don't expect your pitches to carry much weight in comparison to other criteria that the program you are applying to is using to evaluate candidates.

 

[NAVYLABTECH08]

I would go DO.
Closer to home, probably better facilities,
MD vs DO won't matter except in certain geographical areas or neurosurgery etc but then those programs most likely won't take a Carribean MD either.
Based on talking to residents & even multiple threads on SDN the hierarchy of PD's preferences seems to be US MD> US DO > Carribean MD > FMG.
Even if the DO school is more expensive you would have to take into account flying costs for the time you are there. Also research where SGU sends it students for rotations because you may not be able to make it back home for 3rd & 4th years.
I don't know about SGU but from the one Ross student I talked to...they had to secure their own cadaver for anatomy & had to do practice their physical exam skills on each other (DREs included)

Actually, Ross School of medicine had a student match into a neurosurgery residency. I think that matching neuro is hard, but easier from St. G than from a DO perspective. CArib schools focus their students to take USMLE, not Complex and USMLE. I would personally take DO over any caribbean medical school other that ST. G or maybe Ross.

 

[ShyRem]

Interestingly, if you ask different caribbean students, you'll get as much disparity over the quality of each school as students of DO schools discussing their schools' merits - AUC students say their school is better, SGU students say theirs is better, Ross says they're the best. It's all individual perception.

It all comes down to what you want. Do you want to do island life for a couple years? go to the caribbean. Want to stay in the states? go DO. Want that "M" rather than the "O"? Go caribbean. Look, you'll find folks who say go one way or the other until the end of days. Only you can make this decision.

 

[cliquesh]

Is neurosurgery also a fellowship? Because last year, according to the NRMP, there were 19 ACGME neurosurgery positions last year for 15k US medical graduates, and there were 18 AOA neurosurgery spots for 4k DO graduates (but only 1.6k DO graduades participated in the DO match.) So, it seems, it is easier, a lot easier in fact, to match neuro-surg as a DO. But there has to be another route to become a neurosurgeon, right?

 

[DrFraud]

Is neurosurgery also a fellowship? Because last year, according to the NRMP, there were 19 ACGME neurosurgery positions last year for 15k US medical graduates, and there were 18 AOA neurosurgery spots for 4k DO graduates (but only 1.6k DO graduades participated in the DO match.) So, it seems, it is easier, a lot easier in fact, to match neuro-surg as a DO. But there has to be another route to become a neurosurgeon, right?

Here is the NeuroSurg. FAQ which should help you with your questions...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=166874

If its not answered, you can always search some more or post your question on the NeuroSurg forum and I am sure that you can get some good info.

In my brief review, there were about 170 people who matched into NeuroSurg. last year, a bit more than 19.

 

[Dissected]

Is neurosurgery also a fellowship? Because last year, according to the NRMP, there were 19 ACGME neurosurgery positions last year for 15k US medical graduates, and there were 18 AOA neurosurgery spots for 4k DO graduates (but only 1.6k DO graduades participated in the DO match.) So, it seems, it is easier, a lot easier in fact, to match neuro-surg as a DO. But there has to be another route to become a neurosurgeon, right?

I think you can go from a gen surg internship to neuro surgery. Not 100% sure tho. This thread has some statistics in the first post, but I think they are only looking at ACGME residencies. only 1 DO was an ACGME neurosurgery resident in 2004 apparently!

Edit: my link is the same as DrFraud's

 

[DrFraud]

Interestingly, if you ask different caribbean students, you'll get as much disparity over the quality of each school as students of DO schools discussing their schools' merits - AUC students say their school is better, SGU students say theirs is better, Ross says they're the best. It's all individual perception.

It all comes down to what you want. Do you want to do island life for a couple years? go to the caribbean. Want to stay in the states? go DO. Want that "M" rather than the "O"? Go caribbean. Look, you'll find folks who say go one way or the other until the end of days. Only you can make this decision.

You bring up some very good points, but one item that I often here from Osteopathic colleagues who are training or working at programs with me and other Allopaths is that they (DOs) sort of reject the areas of Osteopathic care that vary from Allopathic care, such as OMT.

I understand that there are always going to be Docs who will volunarily reject certain practices, such as OBs who elect not to do abortions. It seems that there are issues within the ranks of DOs that sqabble about the future of osteopathic care and whether or not OMT should be a mandatory part of training, or what exactly an Osteopathic physician is, because the role of osteopathic care seems to be evolving, with very tradional elements within Osteopathic circles that are rejecting change, and who continue to emphasise differences between allopaths and osteopaths, whether these differences exist or not.

I guess this is another difference between being an MD and being a DO....

 

[cliquesh]

Thanks for the info. Apparently, up until this year, neurgo-surgery had their own seperate match before the regular one, and there was 179 spots last year. Figured something was off.

 

[BruceBanner]

There is no substitute for a stateside medical school. Period.

 

[DrFraud]

There is no substitute for a stateside medical school. Period.

for LCME - allopathic medical schools, agreed.

For other programs that are in the U.S., including DO Osteopathic Schools, you find there is much disagreement on this forum as to whether colleagues or the general public will agree with you. Here are some comments reflecting this .... http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=589964

 

[slick27]

As someone who has some more experience working with patients than you, patients have many concerns when they are sick, such as receiving quality competent care, support, and help, and not getting harmed by someone who is inexperienced.

When you start working with patients and it's your on your 20th hour your going to care much less about what a patient thinks about your school. You will want to complete your work and hopefully try your best to deliver the best care you can.

Patients that have had concerns about quality-of-care have these concerns based on how are being treated, and many patients who you see especially those who are chronically ill are better than you think at figuring out if you know what you are doing or you don't without having to ask about education.

I don't really think you've had more patient contact than me, since you're just a third year med student. I've been an EMT for almost three years. I bet I've been had more responsiblity with patient care than you have, but whatever. Yeah, if your heading to the ER, most patients don't care about where you went to school. But, I know most patients, at least now a days, research their doctors credientials and such. Just telling the truth.


B.S., NREMT-B, CNA
MCAT 29O
GPA 3.8
DMU 2013 Finally

 

[123165]

I don't really think you've had more patient contact than me, since you're just a third year med student. I've been an EMT for almost three years. I bet I've been had more responsiblity with patient care than you have, but whatever. Yeah, if your heading to the ER, most patients don't care about where you went to school. But, I know most patients, at least now a days, research their doctors credientials and such. Just telling the truth.


B.S., NREMT-B, CNA
MCAT 29O
GPA 3.8
DMU 2013 Finally

As an EMT I doubt you have more people asking you where you went to school. I don't doubt that you have had more contact though.

 

[COMedic2Doc]

As someone who has some more experience working with patients than you, patients have many concerns when they are sick, such as receiving quality competent care, support, and help, and not getting harmed by someone who is inexperienced.

When you start working with patients and it's your on your 20th hour your going to care much less about what a patient thinks about your school. You will want to complete your work and hopefully try your best to deliver the best care you can.

Patients that have had concerns about quality-of-care have these concerns based on how are being treated, and many patients who you see especially those who are chronically ill are better than you think at figuring out if you know what you are doing or you don't without having to ask about education.

Seriously people, do you really think that your patients outside of an egotistical, pessimistic, complaining patient is really going to care? Probably not very many, in fact you may find them being more interested that you attended school in the Carribean and are now practicing in the States (if you happen to go to SGU). Your patient is going to care much more about you're being a competent Physician, Surgeon, Radiologist, etc. Also, what does matter is whether or not you're a good Medical Student, and whether or not you devoted yourself to your chosen Residency and keeping up with the trends in medicine once you're in actual practice.

 

[JaggerPlate]

for LCME - allopathic medical schools, agreed.

For other programs that are in the U.S., including DO Osteopathic Schools, you find there is much disagreement on this forum as to whether colleagues or the general public will agree with you. Here are some comments reflecting this .... http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=589964

Is SGU accredited by the LCME??

 

[rkaz]

Is SGU accredited by the LCME??

Nope.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Nope.

Didn't think so

 

[COMedic2Doc]

Is SGU accredited by the LCME??

Nope, the LCME has limited itself to schools within the US and Canada.

 

[DrFraud]

Nope, the LCME has limited itself to schools within the US and Canada.

The LCME includes Allopathic medical schools in the US and Canada. It does not include Osteopathic programs, nor (as has already pointed out) does it include international programs including Ross, SGU, and AUC.

 

[COMedic2Doc]

The LCME includes Allopathic medical schools in the US and Canada. It does not include Osteopathic programs, nor (as has already pointed out) does it include international programs including Ross, SGU, and AUC.

My sincerest of apologies, yes LCME includes only Allopathic not Osteopathic. My apology for not indicating this on the first go around.

 

[DrFraud]

From the patients perspective when they ask you where you wnet to medical school and they will, you can always be confident when you say blank and blank city (which would be in the US). Telling them you went to the caribbean, might not instill condfidence with them. Just my opinion, however I know that SGU provides quality education. A family friend of ours went to SGU and somehow became a neurosurgeon. It can happen, just keep working hard.

From your above statement, it doesn't strike me that you have significant experience working in a hospital setting with patients, as priorities during clerkships and residencies as well as patients are usually inconsistant with your opinions about patient care.

Regardless, your credentials sound impressive, and I wish you good luck in your training.

I don't really think you've had more patient contact than me, since you're just a third year med student. I've been an EMT for almost three years. I bet I've been had more responsiblity with patient care than you have, but whatever. Yeah, if your heading to the ER, most patients don't care about where you went to school. But, I know most patients, at least now a days, research their doctors credientials and such. Just telling the truth.

As far as reaserch is concerned, you bring up some good points. Yes expect some patients to research that you are a practicing DO instead of an MD if you decide to work in family practice as an osteopathic physician.

Also expect some will ask you about differences between an osteopath and a medical doctor. Don't be surprised if some of your answers lead to a little confusion if you try and argue that osteopath docs are exactly like medical doctors except that you have different letters and some additional training in OMM, as a number of osteopaths out there who advertise and promote themselves describe osteopathic care in a way that sounds like its coming from alternative docs rather than traditional physicians, which will create added confusion for those patients who are trying to research and figure out exactly what an osteopathic physician is.

 

[scpod]

What a silly, silly thread yet again. Why do people even waste their time with these silly arguments? Most patients just don't give a damn where you went to school. They wouldn't even recognise the name of your medical school unless you said Harvard. Yes, there are some who actually do research and make it an important thing.... but not very many.

If you told most patients that you went to school in the Carribean they wouldn't know that "It's a bad thing and you couldn't get into a US school, so you went to the islands." They don't know enough about medical schools and admissions to have even heard that. They don't even know about the medical schools in their own state unless a friend or relative went there. How many of you could tell what the "good" medical schools in Georgia, Ohio, or Arkansas were before you started reading about them as a premed?

Most patients are just sooooo uninformed. Case in point: During my Family Practice rotation a month or so ago I was talking to one of the patients about medical schools in Florida. She didn'r know how many there were or that two new ones were opening soon. The subject of DO's came up and she said that she went to a DO once up north. Then I told her that Dr. X that she was seeing today was a DO. She had no idea. "DO" is written on the big sign out front, on the stationery, on his name badge and white coat-- yet, she had no clue and had been seeing him for 7 or 8 years.

Most people just aren't that observant for one thing. For the second, they don't know enough about what pre-meds consider to be "good or bad" schools to make a difference. Where do you think most new patients come from? When you get a new patient you usually ask them if they don't already volunteer the information. Most of them say, "George X or Linda Y, your patient, said you're great, so I've come to you."

That said, there are certainly a small number of patients who care where their doctor came from. They want only the very best, and if you're not the top graduate from Harvard they will question your every move and make your life miserable. You are better off firing those patients and letting someone else treat them because they can be a royal pain in the ass.

Come on people, there is a shortage of doctors out there and room enough for all of us to have plenty enough patients for us to treat for as long as we want to. For goodness sake, concentrate your effort on being the best student you can be, regardless of where you choose to go to medical school, and you will be a good doctor in the end. Treat your patients and your colleagues right and you will never suffer from a lack of work.

 

[rkaz]

By the way ... something is bothering me in this thread and I must point it out:

Am I wrong here or does FMG = American citizen who went out of the US for medical school and is returning for clinicals/residency (mainly residency) and IMG = non-US citizen who went to med school somewhere else and is trying to land a residency in the US??

From what I've read on these forums, I believe it's the opposite. USIMG = US citizen who went to another country for medical school, then returns to the US for residency, while FMG = a non-US national who completed med school in a different country, but wants a residency in the US. I think some people use IMG and FMG interchangeably, but they aren't the same (or sometimes people will use the terms USIMG and IMG, referring to the latter as a non-US citizen).

 

[spicedmanna]

When all is said and done, I agree with scpod and ShyRem. We can sit here and argue for decades about which is better and whatnot, but it pretty much comes down to what makes sense for you. I'm sure you can make it work, no matter which you choose. Good luck in your decision process.

 

[goosedander]

Only a naive pre-med would choose SGU over an osteopathic medical school. I'd seriously question the judgment of someone who bypasses the amazing opportunity to become a US-trained physician to go to the islands.

 

[DrFraud]

Only a naive pre-med would choose SGU over an osteopathic medical school. I'd seriously question the judgment of someone who bypasses the amazing opportunity to become a US-trained physician to go to the islands.

Well, your in good company. Lots of MD doctors would consider it naive to become an osteopathic doctor - and to group oneself with Osteopathic colleagues who claim to reject the basic principles of Allopathic medicine and promote alternative therapies ......

Its a good thing we have lots of opinions here so the Osteopathic folks who are calling their future MD colleauges 'Naive' are corrected by voices of reason.

 

[goosedander]

Well, your in good company. Lots of MD doctors would consider it naive to become an osteopathic doctor - and to put oneself in company with Osteopathic colleagues who claim to reject the basic principles of Allopathic medicine and promote alternative therapies ......

Its a good thing we have lots of opinions here so the Osteopathic folks who are calling their future MD colleauges 'Naive' are corrected by voices of reason.

Coming from the guy who thinks DOs don't go to medical school.

Whatever dude. No one's buying what you're selling.

 

[spicedmanna]

Chillax and don't make it personal. Nobody wins any points by looking down on someone else. Look, if you don't want to be prejudged, then please don't prejudge others.

IMG, AMG, nobody cares that much, especially patients in need of care. Let's make a habit of judging doctors on their individual merits instead of making prejudicial remarks about their school, degree, etc. Grow up.

 

[DrFraud]

Coming from the guy who thinks DOs don't go to medical school.

Whatever dude. No one's buying what you're selling.

You might find that more colleagues, especially your future MD colleagues would be respectful of you and your career choices if used more appropriate qualifiers and language to describe their career and education choices....

 

[spicedmanna]

You might find that more colleagues, especially your future MD colleagues would be respectful of you and your career choices if used more appropriate qualifiers and language to describe their career and education choices....

It's true across the board. I dislike folks who come in with a chip on their shoulder. The bottom line is that your attitude counts for a lot in this profession.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

It's true across the board. I dislike folks who come in with a chip on their shoulder. The bottom line is that your attitude counts for a lot in this profession.

and in general, attitude counts for a lot in life

but aside from that, i just want to say that i slightly envy some of the people who "choose" the Caribbean schools. I know I would love to live in the islands for a couple of years while studying medicine

 

[BruceBanner]

for LCME - allopathic medical schools, agreed.

For other programs that are in the U.S., including DO Osteopathic Schools, you find there is much disagreement on this forum as to whether colleagues or the general public will agree with you. Here are some comments reflecting this .... http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=589964

I followed that thread and posted...but I still stand by my statement, mainly for residency concerns with Carib. schools. Some people see it as a more viable option than DO schools, but I think this is mainly because of their own perceptions, not facts. I wouldnt go there unless I had no other choice, and even then you are rolling some costly dice with your future.

 

[JaggerPlate]

This thread is officially pointless. It's pre-osteo vs one Caribbean student (Fraud). No one is going to win, nothing will ever come from this. I personally think that the Caribbean is an absolute last resort. I think any patient is smart enough to realize that there is something fishy about being trained in the Caribbean - assuming the example of the patient who does research -, opportunities will always be greater from the DO school, and students who give up the potential opportunity to train in the states and risk it all just because they would die before not having the 'MD,' are absurd. Once again, these points will all be disputed because this thread cannot end (without a lock), so go on ...

 

[spicedmanna]

Why does it always have to be this versus that? It's rarely that simple. I'm tired of all of the reductionist thinking. As long as someone is making a conscious and informed choice, I'm all for it. It's their life and their career; they have the right to choose their own path, however it looks to any of us.

Most patients don't care where you got your degree. Truly. They are going to come to you for their needs because you are either convenient or came recommended. When there, they are going to focus on three things, the outcome, how you treat them/manage their care, and your attitude. As an insider in the profession, I can say that I am reasonably informed, but I also don't give a damn where someone received their degree. If they rock, they rock. Period.

There's nothing inherently bad about being a Caribbean-trained physician and nobody is inherently bad for making that choice. It is my impression that most are fine physicians. It's an opportunity, a path to becoming a physician, and some take it, for whatever personal reason. It makes more sense to look at the person as an individual. If it feels like the right choice for someone, who am I to disagree? From where I am standing, it makes little sense for me to belittle them, their school, or their choice. After all, it isn't me making the choice. I've already made mine. If I were to argue passionately and relentlessly for either choice, rather than simply stating facts or opinion and moving on, aren't I revealing some kind of insecurity or revealing my prejudices?

Anyway, I'm not going to make snap judgments about a physician based on where they got their degree when there are other factors that are going to be much better indicators of quality. Give it a rest. Please. I think most of the relevant facts and opinions have already been stated in this thread and the numerous others addressing similar topics.

 

[cbrons]

the carrib would be ballin. Pina colladas, sun, beezies. ballin

 

[DrFraud]

Why does it always have to be this versus that? It's rarely that simple. I'm tired of all of the reductionist thinking. As long as someone is making a conscious and informed choice, I'm all for it. It's their life and their career; they have the right to choose their own path, however it looks to any of us.

Most patients don't care where you got your degree. Truly. They are going to come to you for their needs because you are either convenient or came recommended. When there, they are going to focus on three things, the outcome, how you treat them/manage their care, and your attitude. As an insider in the profession, I can say that I am reasonably informed, but I also don't give a damn where someone received their degree. If they rock, they rock. Period.

There's nothing inherently bad about being a Caribbean-trained physician and nobody is inherently bad for making that choice. It is my impression that most are fine physicians. It's an opportunity, a path to becoming a physician, and some take it, for whatever personal reason. It makes more sense to look at the person as an individual. If it feels like the right choice for someone, who am I to disagree? From where I am standing, it makes little sense for me to belittle them, their school, or their choice. After all, it isn't me making the choice. I've already made mine. If I were to argue passionately and relentlessly for either choice, rather than simply stating facts or opinion and moving on, aren't I revealing some kind of insecurity or revealing my prejudices?

Anyway, I'm not going to make snap judgments about a physician based on where they got their degree when there are other factors that are going to be much better indicators of quality. Give it a rest. Please. I think most of the relevant facts and opinions have already been stated in this thread and the numerous others addressing similar topics.

There is something inherent in people that makes them want to feel good about themselves and to Ignore their own limitations by putting others down. If there are any groups of Docs out there that get their share of put downs by their colleagues, it will IMGs, FMGs, and DO so you would think that professionals in these catagories would be mindful of this but instead there is often the opposite effect x100.

Look, I could run around clinic, and say:

'wow, I may have been trained at an international school, but at least Im a U.S. citizen unlike someone who was born and raised, and educated in another country'

.......to feel better about myself and to show that there is another group of people that I am better than, but it would be very unrealistic and unfair for a plethora of reasons including the fact that I have worked with some outstanding physicians and residents who have gone this route, Docs that I would ask for personal care in a flash for me and my family members.

The type of thinking that leads to professional put-downs is derived from a fragile psyche that needs to be stroked and to find a personal sence of superiority and self-importance over those around them.

This entire thread is more a product of some future professionals wanting to find some degree of self-importance, which many people struggle to find throughout their lives. Car lovers argue if their choice in car is better, sports fans from different cities argue about super bowl contenders, fortune 500 execs may debate which one has a nicer private jet, students at Harvard and Yale argue which school has a better sports program, plastic surgeons and orthopods argue about who are better docs, and five year olds argue about who's parents own a better house, and here we have a debate about DOs and MDs ....

Another approach to boosting an ego in need (outside of extracurricular activities), one that I highly recommend is to work hard, study hard, and try and make it a personal committment to your future patients to try and become the best care giver possible....sometimes, especially as a student, the rewards are not as immediate as is derived by hurling put downs, but believe me, every thing you do now as a student will pay off in the future if you make it your personal committment to be the best that you can....

 

[DrFraud]

This thread is officially pointless. It's pre-osteo vs one Caribbean student (Fraud). No one is going to win, nothing will ever come from this. I personally think that the Caribbean is an absolute last resort. I think any patient is smart enough to realize that there is something fishy about being trained in the Caribbean - assuming the example of the patient who does research -, opportunities will always be greater from the DO school, and students who give up the potential opportunity to train in the states and risk it all just because they would die before not having the 'MD,' are absurd. Once again, these points will all be disputed because this thread cannot end (without a lock), so go on ...

Or possibly, you think there is something fishy about going this route. Whatever your own opinions, just remember that there is a very good chance that some of your training, if you decide to do a residency with allopathics, will be from medical doctors trained in the Caribbean, which I guess will make your training suspect too.

As has already been pointed out countless times, most patients want quality care by competently trained care givers, and arn't going to be running around comparing CVs.

 

[jumpingjax]

To any pre med reading this thread...

Stop - Don't let it come down to having to choose btw DO and US-FMG.

Apply to every US allopathic school and if you don't get in, strengthen your app and reapply to US allopathic schools. Repeat until you get in. In your year or two off, work as an EMT, volunteer, be a substitute teacher, work as an anesthesia/OR tech, work ski patrol, or whatever, and study, get your MCAT up, strengthen your app and reapply to US allopathic schools.

I'm a third year resident and have kept in touch with lots of people who went DO, USFMG, and nontrad MD. In my limited experience, it seemed like the ones who went DO/USFMG gave up too quickly and wanted to get in "somewhere" and just start med school.

Yeah, it sucked for the nontrad folks who reapplied again and again - lots of uncertainty and watching their friends start med school while they were stuck in limbo. But I think it paid off. Not one of them regreats it now - the ex EMT matched into optho, the ex anesthesia tech is a 4th year MS who interviewed at several top notch anesthesia programs and will certainly match well, the sub teacher/ski patrol guy is a radiology resident. Funny thing is that they swear that their non trad stories were ultimately admired in residency interviews.

The (several) DO people I know are all either peds, IM, or fp. One tried anesthesia, but didn't match so went the fp route. I honestly don't know if the rest chose primary care b/c they liked it or for lack of other (specialty) options.

The one USFMG girl I know landed a peds res and fellowship in a sketchy hospital in the US. She's working in rural Nebraska now I think.

Anyway, take what you will from this post. For the record, I've worked with DO, FMG, USFMG, and MD as a resident and I honestly couldn't pick one from the other based on skill or knowledge. However, I honestly believe going the allopathic MD route (traditional or nontrad) gives you more options in the future.

 

[Nasem]

Every medical doctor I talk to (when I shadow or at the hospital I volunteer) tell me that a student would be a fool to pick a medical school outside of the U.S than inside the U.S (irrespective if its DO or MD)... and this is coming from mostly MDs..... Thier primary reason is landing residency spots,

Every doctors tells me the same thing, a United states medical graduate has a better chance to land any residency when compared to the non-U.S graduate..... Is this true? is this false? I don't know, its just what I always hear

 

[DrFraud]

Every medical doctor I talk to (when I shadow or at the hospital I volunteer) tell me that a student would be a fool to pick a medical school outside of the U.S than inside the U.S (irrespective if its DO or MD)... and this is coming from mostly MDs..... Thier primary reason is landing residency spots,

Every doctors tells me the same thing, a United states medical graduate has a better chance to land any residency when compared to the non-U.S graduate..... Is this true? is this false? I don't know, its just what I always hear

This is false, in an almost laughable way unless you are purposefully misinterpreting or mis-communicating what you are hearing.There is no clear cut advantage, and their could be disadvantages going DO. Programs have their preferences. U.S Allopathic grads are usually 1st, and the rest varies from program to program. If you think otherwise, start a poll or something in the residency forum and ask some program directors for their input, but be clear so that there is no room for the PDs to misunderstand you.

If a student wants to specialize, do your best, and try to be in the to 15% of the herd, and it wont really matter where you go as long as the program you attend a school that doesn't have any licensing issues.

 

[JaggerPlate]

To any pre med reading this thread...

Stop - Don't let it come down to having to choose btw DO and US-FMG.

Apply to every US allopathic school and if you don't get in, strengthen your app and reapply to US allopathic schools. Repeat until you get in. In your year or two off, work as an EMT, volunteer, be a substitute teacher, work as an anesthesia/OR tech, work ski patrol, or whatever, and study, get your MCAT up, strengthen your app and reapply to US allopathic schools.

I'm a third year resident and have kept in touch with lots of people who went DO, USFMG, and nontrad MD. In my limited experience, it seemed like the ones who went DO/USFMG gave up too quickly and wanted to get in "somewhere" and just start med school.

Yeah, it sucked for the nontrad folks who reapplied again and again - lots of uncertainty and watching their friends start med school while they were stuck in limbo. But I think it paid off. Not one of them regreats it now - the ex EMT matched into optho, the ex anesthesia tech is a 4th year MS who interviewed at several top notch anesthesia programs and will certainly match well, the sub teacher/ski patrol guy is a radiology resident. Funny thing is that they swear that their non trad stories were ultimately admired in residency interviews.

The (several) DO people I know are all either peds, IM, or fp. One tried anesthesia, but didn't match so went the fp route. I honestly don't know if the rest chose primary care b/c they liked it or for lack of other (specialty) options.

The one USFMG girl I know landed a peds res and fellowship in a sketchy hospital in the US. She's working in rural Nebraska now I think.

Anyway, take what you will from this post. For the record, I've worked with DO, FMG, USFMG, and MD as a resident and I honestly couldn't pick one from the other based on skill or knowledge. However, I honestly believe going the allopathic MD route (traditional or nontrad) gives you more options in the future.

This is horrible advice and what people refer to as the 200k mistake. Becoming a physician is very difficult and you should take any (reasonable) opportunity you can get. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush ... you can chase the MD thing for years, displaying to schools your inability to become accepted and in some cases basically screwing your chances with schools (many state on their website to not apply more than twice). Your experiences are frankly, rare ... and I honestly doubt that many people who couldn't pull off the MCAT and gpa to go to US allo the first (or even second) time around will dominate the USMLE, be top of their class and match ortho.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Or possibly, you think there is something fishy about going this route. Whatever your own opinions, just remember that there is a very good chance that some of your training, if you decide to do a residency with allopathics, will be from medical doctors trained in the Caribbean, which I guess will make your training suspect too.

As has already been pointed out countless times, most patients want quality care by competently trained care givers, and arn't going to be running around comparing CVs.

1. I stated that my opinions were my own, and nothing more than that ... opinion.

2. My example about was stated as the situation where a patient researched their physician, which as all agreed, is rare.


I'm not trying to blatantly insult your choice of medical school, but I will say that these type of reactions should be expected, especially in a pre-Osteopathic forum.

 

[BruceBanner]

To the OP, remember to put everything you read here into perspective. People get annoyed with these types questions because they always turn into arguments, but it is a totally valid concern and there will always be students with questions like this. That's what this forum is for, after all.

If you really boil and skim what the majority of members are saying here, it's that going to a stateside school, MD or DO, is more on the safe side. There are people who do well in all routes taken, but if you want to minimize the risk of not getting in to the program you want or ending up in a lousy program, stay in the states.

Ive had people tell me what Jumpingjax said, to suck it up and keep bettering my credentials until I get into to a US MD program, and Ive had an equal number of other people echo Jaggerplate's statement--that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush and I should take any reasonable offer I get.

It comes down to your own specific goals, preferences, personal concerns, and timeframe. There is no absolute "right" or "wrong" answer.

 

[shnuffles]

i've only read through the first two pages worth of angry responses, but isn't there something to be said for having no interest in omm?