Got Accepted to DO and St. Georges University. What to do?

[MaximusD]

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I just want to comment on many pre-osteo on this forum comparing osteopathic schools to US MD schools. For example, the average MCAT for west virginia hovers around 21. If you chose west virginia over stateside MD, that would not be the brightest move. Many of the new DO schools that open do not even report their MCAT or GPA. Because it will be very low, most likely below 20 and the gpa most likely dip below 3.0. Do not kid yourself, most of these students have failed to get into MD schools (which is nothing to be ashamed of btw), and is using DO as backups. Yes there are a minor few that chose DOs over MD and had a chance at an MD school (or even got in), but those are a rare and a LOT fewer than these forums are led to believe. IN ADDITION, YOU CANNOT COMPARE A DO ENTERING GPA STATS WITH AN MD ENTINERING STATS. MD schools average all GPA, even if you retake a class whereas DO schools replace a retaken class. This will make a HUGE difference in entering stats of a DO school, which makes it appear that the caliber of students is close to MD schools, which it is not. When the average GPA is around 3.2, replacing grades makes a HUGE difference in the reporting grades, as most students with 3.2 gpa most likely have retaken more than one class. I'm willing to venture that west virginia's average gpa of around 3.2 is closer to 2.8-2.9 if you average the gpa like an MD school does. I have known friends who applied to MD and DO schools, and GPA can differ significantly through AMCAS and AACOMAS.
Touro NY, a new school, literally you just need around a 3.0 and 20 MCAT and you're almost a shoe in. Nobody in their right mind will go to that school over an MD school.

When I applied, I applied Osteo and Allo and the difference between my AACOMAS and AMCAS sGPAs was less than 0.05, although I had no repeat courses. I am sure there are instances of individuals who retook 5+ courses and replaced F's with A's, but these are likely the exception and not the rule.

At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the admissions pool is far deeper with qualified applicants than the depth of those accepted each year to US MD institutions. This is why osteopathic physicians at well-respected institutions are extremely competitive amongst their peers. Medicine isn't rocket science, you don't have to be a 3.6+ 35 MCAT coming from undergrad to be a great physician. Do these measures often demonstrate intelligence and discipline? Absolutely, but they are not the only indicators. I digress.

To answer the OP, I didn't apply to Carib schools and I advise no one to do so unless the doors are absolutely closed to USMD or USDO institutions. The attrition rates are horrible and you are far away from a support net of friends and family, which can be important at times in medical school.

It is important to consider the DO school to which you attained an acceptance. Some of the older schools offer greater networking ability and are more commonly recognized at large academic centers. Examples of this would (of course) be PCOM, NYCOM, DMU, CCOM, and NYCOM. Some of the newer DO schools such as the Touros and the LECOMs are on the lower-tier but still offer superior opportunities to SGU. I would caution against RVU at this time. Remember that all DO schools are not created equal.

Best of luck with your decision. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[MaximusD]

i've only read through the first two pages worth of angry responses, but isn't there something to be said for having no interest in omm?

Eh, OMM is of limited value in many clinical settings. The value seems to largely be in improving palpatory skill and having some basic maneuvers for common complaints so that you aren't always just a pill dispenser. As long as an incoming student is remotely open to OMM, I think they will get what they need to out of it. There will always be those who are gung-ho and those who hate OMM at any DO school. Unlike many of my colleagues, I see the complicated techniques as an enriching edition to the DO curriculum however it is not its core.

The core of osteopathy lies in the ability to confidently use your hands in the clinical setting... not necessarily in being able to do every manipulation upside down in the lateral recumbent position while transmitting a quick HVLA impulse with a triple axle/kung fu movement... (i'm being facetious)

 

[DrFraud]

If you really boil and skim what the majority of members are saying here, it's that going to a stateside school, MD or DO, is more on the safe side. There are people who do well in all routes taken, but if you want to minimize the risk of not getting in to the program you want or ending up in a lousy program, stay in the states.

It comes down to your own specific goals, preferences, personal concerns, and timeframe. There is no absolute "right" or "wrong" answer.

This is total FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) argument....do not go somewhere because the big bad wolf is gonna get ya so do what I'm tellin ya......

A good student going to one of the accredited international medical schools (Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba) will do fine unless there are some accademic or psychological issues with the student. Likewise at most DO programs.

Look, either you believe in the DO philosophy or you dont. I met a bunch of DOs who reject the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia have have told me this. I myself reject this philosophy too so regardless of whether the DO school was next to Harvard and had rotations with students at Mass General or if the DO program was in Tanzania I wouldn't select this route.

I couln't bring myself to regurgitate quotes by AT Still during an interview with a DO program because I simply do not believe in this approach, nor would I want to have colleauges that do unusual stuff....like what is posted here and in the many adverticements made by DOs.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Look if a student wants to be a DO and believe strongly in the DO philosophy, then go the DO route, but if a student wants to be an Allopath then first try going to a U.S. program and if this fails then try for the reputable international programs. I think this is a better decision matrix to follow.

I don't think there is anything wrong with students who want to pursue alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine. However, these avenues are not for me and while I am open to different approaches I could not bring myself to embrace these views enough to want to study them. Consider your own philosophy first and then select the path that works best for you.

 

[shnuffles]

This is total FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) argument....do not go somewhere because the big bad wolf is gonna get ya so do what I'm tellin ya......

A good student going to one of the accredited international medical schools (Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba) will do fine unless there are some accademic or psychological issues with the student. Likewise at most DO programs.

Look, either you believe in the DO philosophy or you dont. I met a bunch of DOs who reject the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia have have told me this. I myself reject this philosophy too so regardless of whether the DO school was next to Harvard and had rotations with students at Mass General or if the DO program was in Tanzania I wouldn't select this route.

I couln't bring myself to regurgitate quotes by AT Still during an interview with a DO program because I simply do not believe in this approach, nor would I want to have colleauges that do unusual stuff....like what is posted here and in the many adverticements made by DOs.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Look if a student wants to be a DO and believe strongly in the DO philosophy, then go the DO route, but if a student wants to be an Allopath then first try going to a U.S. program and if this fails then try for the reputable international programs. I think this is a better decision matrix to follow.

I don't think there is anything wrong with students who want to pursue alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine. However, these avenues are not for me and while I am open to different approaches I could not bring myself to embrace these views enough to want to study them. Consider your own philosophy first and then select the path that works best for you.

Well put!

 

[MaximusD]

This is total FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) argument....do not go somewhere because the big bad wolf is gonna get ya so do what I'm tellin ya......

A good student going to one of the accredited international medical schools (Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba) will do fine unless there are some accademic or psychological issues with the student. Likewise at most DO programs.

Look, either you believe in the DO philosophy or you dont. I met a bunch of DOs who reject the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia have have told me this. I myself reject this philosophy too so regardless of whether the DO school was next to Harvard and had rotations with students at Mass General or if the DO program was in Tanzania I wouldn't select this route.

I couln't bring myself to regurgitate quotes by AT Still during an interview with a DO program because I simply do not believe in this approach, nor would I want to have colleauges that do unusual stuff....like what is posted here and in the many adverticements made by DOs.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Look if a student wants to be a DO and believe strongly in the DO philosophy, then go the DO route, but if a student wants to be an Allopath then first try going to a U.S. program and if this fails then try for the reputable international programs. I think this is a better decision matrix to follow.

I don't think there is anything wrong with students who want to pursue alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine. However, these avenues are not for me and while I am open to different approaches I could not bring myself to embrace these views enough to want to study them. Consider your own philosophy first and then select the path that works best for you.

You have no idea what you're talking about. All of this nonsense is taught only in-passing and has nothing to do with the merits of a DO school to be honest. We don't practice or learn alternative approaches. We learn how to do manipulation once per week with our hands, because certain problems can be alleviated in this manner and because palpatory skills are immensely important to being a physician, however most practicing DOs do not ascribe to any alternative medical theories and most choose to not practice manipulation, although studies have demonstrated many forms of OMT are efficacious.

The DO route puts you into better position for flexibility and competitiveness when applying for residency, period.

 

[ShyRem]

Fraud, most reputable DOs would NEVER use OMM to treat "hypertension and dyslipidemia". That's not what it's made for. So gee, I'm not surprised you met a bunch of them who reject OMM to treat those types of conditions. You will of course meet *****s who will swear by it for everything from cancer to cystic fibrosis. And you'll find quack MDs who do plastic surgery without having done an appropriate residency and really mess folks up - if not kill them outright. At least use reasonable arguments, for heavens sakes. (muttering: OMM for dyslipidemia. unbelievable. where do these people - docs included - get this crap?)

BTW: while I believe OMM is really wonderful for certain MSK issues, there is no way in creation it would ever cure disease like HTN, CF, or DM. But it's good for headaches, piriformis syndrome, sprains, soft tissue injury from MVAs, repetitive strain injuries, etc. It's meant to be an adjunct. Not a cure-all. adjunct.

I do agree with your statements and am pleased to see we can all finally agree on something: If you can't stomach the OMM thing, don't go the DO route - go internationally but be prepared for any problems you may face later. If you have experience with DOs, are curious, intrigued, or can't stomach the international route, then go DO.

At least go in with your eyes wide open no matter which route you go. Both have their eccentricities and prejudiced folks to deal with. However, it seems the DO prejudice is dying faster than the international prejudice. Progress is made one death at a time. Someday folks will realize it doesn't matter where you go to school, just whether you're a good doctor or a crappy one. That'll happen about the time the middle east will have peace. 🙄

 

[scpod]

....Look, either you believe in the DO philosophy or you dont....

I've already stated that you can go anywhere and get ahead if you are a good student. Yet, I had to comment again because you have such a flawed view of soteopthic medicine and medical schools.

I don't know any DO's at all who use "the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia" and they DON'T teach you to do that in DO schools. I didn't have to utter one single quote by A.T. Still to get an acceptance either. Actually, I don't know any A.T. Still quotes right off the top of my head even now-- but I do think he had some good ones. DO's don't practice any differently than MD's do in the modern world.

There certainly can't be anything wrong with someone wanting to stay in America for medical school-- where you always have running water, electricity, good healthcare nearby and no fear of tropical diseases. Plus, it's nice to have a school that works with you if you have problems and has their staff in the same country where you are doing your clinicals for two years, and to have a school that has full government loans, doesn't care about your credit report and has some standards. I know a couple of folks that failed out of DO school and were instantly accepted to a couple of the "Big Three" Caribbean schools, no questions asked (except for "How are you going to pay for it?").

On another note, DO schools don't require you to learn about "alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine" either. So, you wouldn't have to "embrace these views" after all. Yet, it might be in your best interest to know a lot about them because your patients are reading about them on the Internet and using that stuff every single day.

Look, I've already said that you can get a good education anywhere you go, USMD, DO or Carribean if you work hard enough-- and I truly believe that. But, don't come into my DO forum and spew garbage about DO's and DO schools that you know nothing about! Go play in someone else's sandbox.

 

[cliquesh]

I keep reading on these forums that there is no difference between DOs and MDs. But from my brieft shadowing experiences, I have noticed a difference, and there was even an article in the NEJM that demonstrated a difference. Am I the only one that has actually seen a difference?

 

[spicedmanna]

I keep reading on these forums that there is no difference between DOs and MDs. But from my brieft shadowing experiences, I have noticed a difference, and there was even an article in the NEJM that demonstrated a difference. Am I the only one that has actually seen a difference?

Can you be any more vague? What on Earth are you referring to? I am an osteopathic medical student and I've worked closely with MD's and DO's; there's no real difference that I can see, except that sometimes a select few DO's will use OMT where it is appropriately indicated. Of course, MD's can now be trained in OMT as well, if they desire, and a select few do just that. Physicians, whether MD or DO, practice to a common standard of care in the management and treatment of patients. There is no difference in approach. Any differences (in approach and manner) you might see, other than the use of OMT, are more likely the result of individual character and predilection rather than based on some historical and now redundant "philosophy."

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I couln't bring myself to regurgitate quotes by AT Still during an interview with a DO program because I simply do not believe in this approach, nor would I want to have colleauges that do unusual stuff....like what is posted here and in the many adverticements made by DOs.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Look if a student wants to be a DO and believe strongly in the DO philosophy, then go the DO route, but if a student wants to be an Allopath then first try going to a U.S. program and if this fails then try for the reputable international programs.

Whose AT Still? JK...I never had to regurgitate any of his quotes/philosophies during my interview, nor was he even mentioned. And you're going to have colleagues that do "unusual stuff" regardless of what medical school you go to. I assume by unusual stuff you meant OMT, though. Don't DOs and MDs work in the same hospitals anyways? (except in certain regions of the country where DO's are less recognized) I know you're happy with your choice of choosing the Caribbean route, and good for you. Just don't belittle other's choices, or find ways to justify your choice by making the DO route less smart/worthwhile.

As for your bolded statement: I wanted to become a doctor. It seems like you were more interested in becoming an allopath, hence your choice to go to the Caribbean for the coveted (in your eyes) MD degree. Once again, good for you, and I'm glad you're happy with your decision. Maybe one day we will be fortunate enough to work together; I'll try not to do anything "unusual" around you though 😉

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I keep reading on these forums that there is no difference between DOs and MDs. But from my brieft shadowing experiences, I have noticed a difference, and there was even an article in the NEJM that demonstrated a difference. Am I the only one that has actually seen a difference?

Care to elaborate on the NEJM article? At least say what it said. Or at least say what the difference you saw was.

And I've shadowed an osteopathic family physician and an osteopathic orthopedic surgeon. No difference seen. (Which is why I'm applying/most likely attending a DO school)

 

[DrFraud]

At least go in with your eyes wide open no matter which route you go. Both have their eccentricities and prejudiced folks to deal with. However, it seems the DO prejudice is dying faster than the international prejudice. Progress is made one death at a time. Someday folks will realize it doesn't matter where you go to school, just whether you're a good doctor or a crappy one. That'll happen about the time the middle east will have peace. 🙄

I guess thats what a lot of this bickering boils down too. DOs, especially younger mainstream DOs, want to reduce the prejudices against them, and perpetuating prejudices against internationally trained MDs seems to be the route of choice.

 

[spicedmanna]

I guess thats what a lot of this bickering boils down too. DOs, especially younger mainstream DOs, want to reduce the prejudices against them, and perpetuating prejudices against internationally trained MDs seems to be the route of choice.

Be mindful of generalizations like that. My associates and I are in favor of eliminating prejudices by presenting facts and dispelling untruths, not by perpetuating prejudices elsewhere. Doing so would run counter to my approach on life. I try to approach each situation as informed as possible and try to leave my judgments at the door. I know my colleagues do as well.

The fact is we all have a very important job to do and we have to work together to do it well. There is too much at stake to engage in stupidity and prejudices. I consider my colleagues based on how they present to me, not where they went to school or what degree they hold.

 

[Decicco]

SGU vs. a US-DO can be a hard choice, and I would go where ever you see yourself being happiest. As you said, SGU is the best C-MD school. Also, you need to consider the specific reputation of the DO school you are considering because they are of uneven quality. Depending on where you post this, you will get definitive answers to go one way or the other, but really it comes down to your own judgement. Both options have very real minuses (and pluses).. good luck.

 

[DrFraud]

I've already stated that you can go anywhere and get ahead if you are a good student. Yet, I had to comment again because you have such a flawed view of soteopthic medicine and medical schools.

I don't know any DO's at all who use "the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia" and they DON'T teach you to do that in DO schools. I didn't have to utter one single quote by A.T. Still to get an acceptance either. Actually, I don't know any A.T. Still quotes right off the top of my head even now-- but I do think he had some good ones. DO's don't practice any differently than MD's do in the modern world.

There certainly can't be anything wrong with someone wanting to stay in America for medical school-- where you always have running water, electricity, good healthcare nearby and no fear of tropical diseases. Plus, it's nice to have a school that works with you if you have problems and has their staff in the same country where you are doing your clinicals for two years, and to have a school that has full government loans, doesn't care about your credit report and has some standards. I know a couple of folks that failed out of DO school and were instantly accepted to a couple of the "Big Three" Caribbean schools, no questions asked (except for "How are you going to pay for it?").

On another note, DO schools don't require you to learn about "alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine" either. So, you wouldn't have to "embrace these views" after all. Yet, it might be in your best interest to know a lot about them because your patients are reading about them on the Internet and using that stuff every single day.

Look, I've already said that you can get a good education anywhere you go, USMD, DO or Carribean if you work hard enough-- and I truly believe that. But, don't come into my DO forum and spew garbage about DO's and DO schools that you know nothing about! Go play in someone else's sandbox.

As a moderator, it is your choice as to what topics you open up, and how respectful you wish to be to other professionals. The title of the thread compares DOs to MDs. Its your choice to allow these discussions to occur or not, and naturally, you have to expect that MDs and MD students will express their opinions in a public forum, especially when some of the comments by DO students about MD allopaths really equate to the characterizations above that I highlighted. If you want to lock this thread, then go ahead, but until that happens, I'm going to correct what I see as misinformation on a public forum.

One of the things that a lot of members keep saying on this thread is that DOs are becoming mainstream and that they are very similar to Allopathic Medical Doctors.

On the AOA website this is the basic description of an Osteopathic Doctor:

'Developed 130 years ago by physician A.T. Still, osteopathic medicine is one of the fastest growing healthcare professions in the U.S. and brings a unique philosophy to traditional medicine. With a strong emphasis on the inter-relationship of the body's nerves, muscles, bones and organs, doctors of osteopathic medicine, or D.O.s, apply the philosophy of treating the whole person to the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, disease and injury.'

You really can't have it both ways. You are marketing yourselves as traditional doctors to premedical students yet this is very inconsistent with the core messages of Osteopathic medicine which sounds more like alternative medicine.

 

[DrFraud]

Be mindful of generalizations like that. My associates and I are in favor of eliminating prejudices by presenting facts and dispelling untruths, not by perpetuating prejudices elsewhere. Doing so would run counter to my approach on life. I try to approach each situation as informed as possible and try to leave my judgments at the door. I know my colleagues do as well.

The fact is we all have a very important job to do and we have to work together to do it well. There is too much at stake to engage in stupidity and prejudices. I consider my colleagues based on how they present to me, not where they went to school or what degree they hold.

My comments were not directed at your statements. I think you have been very careful how you have presented facts.

 

[RySerr21]

Um, the title of the thread does not compare MDs to DOs. This thread is f'in ridiculous.

"The MDs I know are getting interviews at compettive anesthesia residencies. The one DO I know of is practicing peds in rural Nebraska." SWEET ARGUMENT!!!!!!

 

[scpod]

You really can't have it both ways. You are marketing yourselves as traditional doctors to premedical students yet this is very inconsistent with the core messages of Osteopathic medicine which sounds more like alternative medicine.

I'm not marketing anything. I'm dealing in reality. You're filled with your own special rhetoric, evidenced by a less-than-cunning knowledge of the reality of osteopathic medicine, by quoting a delusional entity while assuming that anyone really believes them.

Not only are the leaders of the AOA fooling themselves, it appears they are fooling you too.

 

[ShyRem]

I guess thats what a lot of this bickering boils down too. DOs, especially younger mainstream DOs, want to reduce the prejudices against them, and perpetuating prejudices against internationally trained MDs seems to be the route of choice.

Wow. I never said anything about any one particular group of anyone perpetuating the prejudices.. but I find it interesting that you insinuated such from the comment.

Generally, when people are so very die-hard about a hatred/prejudice against something they know very little about, it's because they are reminded of something within themselves they don't like much. I wonder in your case what that would be.

 

[ShyRem]

On the AOA website this is the basic description of an Osteopathic Doctor:

'Developed 130 years ago by physician A.T. Still, osteopathic medicine is one of the fastest growing healthcare professions in the U.S. and brings a unique philosophy to traditional medicine. With a strong emphasis on the inter-relationship of the body's nerves, muscles, bones and organs, doctors of osteopathic medicine, or D.O.s, apply the philosophy of treating the whole person to the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, disease and injury.'

You have to realize that this was certainly unique back when Still began the DO degree - MDs were still using calomel injections. It was very unique and very different back then. Today not so much. Both have grown (unfortunately IMO the AOA hasn't grown with the profession and doesn't see how close the two degrees really are - but that's not the point of the OPs question).

 

[MaximusD]

I guess thats what a lot of this bickering boils down too. DOs, especially younger mainstream DOs, want to reduce the prejudices against them, and perpetuating prejudices against internationally trained MDs seems to be the route of choice.

HAHA nice try bucko. I have friends who have gone the FMG route, and I have no doubt that they will make fine doctors. I, however, am worried about how difficult it will be for individuals choosing this route to obtain US residencies.

Competence and competitiveness do NOT necessarily go hand-in-hand, but you're too bound by your own ignorance to make that differentiation.

Try harder next time.

 

[MaximusD]

Um, the title of the thread does not compare MDs to DOs. This thread is f'in ridiculous.

"The MDs I know are getting interviews at compettive anesthesia residencies. The one DO I know of is practicing peds in rural Nebraska." SWEET ARGUMENT!!!!!!

How dare you question an anecdote from an anonymous stranger!!!

 

[MaximusD]

As a moderator, it is your choice as to what topics you open up, and how respectful you wish to be to other professionals. The title of the thread compares DOs to MDs. Its your choice to allow these discussions to occur or not, and naturally, you have to expect that MDs and MD students will express their opinions in a public forum, especially when some of the comments by DO students about MD allopaths really equate to the characterizations above that I highlighted. If you want to lock this thread, then go ahead, but until that happens, I'm going to correct what I see as misinformation on a public forum.

One of the things that a lot of members keep saying on this thread is that DOs are becoming mainstream and that they are very similar to Allopathic Medical Doctors.

On the AOA website this is the basic description of an Osteopathic Doctor:

'Developed 130 years ago by physician A.T. Still, osteopathic medicine is one of the fastest growing healthcare professions in the U.S. and brings a unique philosophy to traditional medicine. With a strong emphasis on the inter-relationship of the body's nerves, muscles, bones and organs, doctors of osteopathic medicine, or D.O.s, apply the philosophy of treating the whole person to the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, disease and injury.'

You really can't have it both ways. You are marketing yourselves as traditional doctors to premedical students yet this is very inconsistent with the core messages of Osteopathic medicine which sounds more like alternative medicine.

Your best argument is based on a marketing campaign that is more aimed at the general public than the medical profession. Perhaps if you go into hospitals and gain some real-world experience members of this forum will be able to respect you a little more. Until then, please learn how to properly construct and support an argument.

 

[rajaholick]

if your ultimate goal is to get into an allopathic residency, one of the main factors will be your USMLE scores
take a look at this link: http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html
the DO students who took USMLE step 1 and 2 have had a higher pass rate than foreign students
the reasons for this may vary, and I'm sure there are many foreign grads who outperformed students from US MD and DO schools
just wanted to throw some stats out there...

 

[JaggerPlate]

This is total FUD (fear uncertainty doubt) argument....do not go somewhere because the big bad wolf is gonna get ya so do what I'm tellin ya......

A good student going to one of the accredited international medical schools (Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba) will do fine unless there are some accademic or psychological issues with the student. Likewise at most DO programs.

Look, either you believe in the DO philosophy or you dont. I met a bunch of DOs who reject the whole OMM thing to treat conditions like hypertension and dyslipidemia have have told me this. I myself reject this philosophy too so regardless of whether the DO school was next to Harvard and had rotations with students at Mass General or if the DO program was in Tanzania I wouldn't select this route.

I couln't bring myself to regurgitate quotes by AT Still during an interview with a DO program because I simply do not believe in this approach, nor would I want to have colleauges that do unusual stuff....like what is posted here and in the many adverticements made by DOs.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Look if a student wants to be a DO and believe strongly in the DO philosophy, then go the DO route, but if a student wants to be an Allopath then first try going to a U.S. program and if this fails then try for the reputable international programs. I think this is a better decision matrix to follow.

I don't think there is anything wrong with students who want to pursue alternative medicine, acupuncture, or herbal medicine. However, these avenues are not for me and while I am open to different approaches I could not bring myself to embrace these views enough to want to study them. Consider your own philosophy first and then select the path that works best for you.

Stephen Barrett is like 200 years old and a judgmental, bitter relic. I'm 0% surprised that someone who went to medical school during WWI would tell you to go to Caribbean schools over DO schools. That source has absolutely no validity. Ryserr is right ... this thread is totally off topic, and your one man war has really gone far enough. We get it ... you go to a Caribbean med school and you are pleased with your decision. Congratulations on being happy ...

 

[spicedmanna]

On the AOA website this is the basic description of an Osteopathic Doctor:

'Developed 130 years ago by physician A.T. Still, osteopathic medicine is one of the fastest growing healthcare professions in the U.S. and brings a unique philosophy to traditional medicine. With a strong emphasis on the inter-relationship of the body's nerves, muscles, bones and organs, doctors of osteopathic medicine, or D.O.s, apply the philosophy of treating the whole person to the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, disease and injury.'

You really can't have it both ways. You are marketing yourselves as traditional doctors to premedical students yet this is very inconsistent with the core messages of Osteopathic medicine which sounds more like alternative medicine.

What's true about your statement is that there is indeed a problem with consistency in my profession and this does disturb me. You have what the AOA and a minority of DO's portray and you have what's rooted in reality, where most of us stand. Sadly and quite unfortunately, the AOA doesn't at all represent my point of view, nor, if you will permit me to generalize a bit, the viewpoints of most of my colleagues. That's where the conflict and inconsistent messages come from. Indeed, I think the AOA is misguided and stuck in the past for the most part. It is an organization that seems, at least from where I am standing, to be desperately trying to justify it's own existence by the use of propaganda.

 

[ShyRem]

I love it when we think alike, spicey!!!! 😍

 

[rkaz]

Your best argument is based on a marketing campaign that is more aimed at the general public than the medical profession. Perhaps if you go into hospitals and gain some real-world experience members of this forum will be able to respect you a little more. Until then, please learn how to properly construct and support an argument.

While I have not appreciated DrFraud's condescending attitude of DOs not being real doctors (as evidenced here and on ValueMD).... I think he does make a valid point here that should be looked into. His point (below) does have merit.

Why is it acceptable for the AOA to market the osteopathic medical profession as something it's not? The whole purpose of having DOs in A.T. Still's day was to provide an alternative to the mainstraim way of thinking of preventive medicine, the body as a healing unit, etc. If there is no difference today, then why are there 2 separate degree programs? Rather than have the confusion of 2 separate degree programs, they should be merged as one (I'm guessing that would be 'MD' since it is mainstream), but those who are also learning OMM should simply receive an additional 'certificate' in OMM along with their medical degree.

I empathize with those who are confused about what osteopathic medicine is when it's governing organization says one thing, and practitioners say another thing. Furthermore, practitioners don't have concensus-- as the DO I shadowed (who was an internist and a PCOM alumni) was proud to be an osteopathic physician trained in OMM, and would NOT have chosen the MD route if she had to do it over. There are DOs who seem to have chosen the DO route as a backup, since they were not accepted at MD institutions who try to minimize the differences between MDs and DOs. Then there are the DOs proud of their profession (some of whom chose DO school even after being accepted to MD school) and they are the ones who enjoy talking about the osteopathic philosophy and the differences between the two. So yes, it is confusing for the general public, and I understand where they are coming from. It's confusing to pre-med students as well.

I most likely will be going the DO path myself, and I feel happy to go this route. I do hope osteopathic principles and preventive medicine are emphasized, else I will feel cheated to have bought into the 'osteopathic philosophy' and not have it delivered to me as promised (although I don't really see it as an 'osteopathic philosophy' per se, but rather principles of good medicine). But since DOs schools keep hyping this up, I expect them to deliver the goods to me as a student.

 

[DrFraud]

My sincerest apologies for saying anything that was considered condescending or offensive. I think your post, and the posts by Spicedmanna will be very helpful for students who are considering a career as an Osteopathic Physician. This post is also helpful for enhancing my understanding too.

 

[MaximusD]

While I have not appreciated DrFraud's condescending attitude of DOs not being real doctors (as evidenced here and on ValueMD).... I think he does make a valid point here that should be looked into. His point (below) does have merit.

Why is it acceptable for the AOA to market the osteopathic medical profession as something it's not? The whole purpose of having DOs in A.T. Still's day was to provide an alternative to the mainstraim way of thinking of preventive medicine, the body as a healing unit, etc. If there is no difference today, then why are there 2 separate degree programs? Rather than have the confusion of 2 separate degree programs, they should be merged as one (I'm guessing that would be 'MD' since it is mainstream), but those who are also learning OMM should simply receive an additional 'certificate' in OMM along with their medical degree.

I empathize with those who are confused about what osteopathic medicine is when it's governing organization says one thing, and practitioners say another thing. Furthermore, practitioners don't have concensus-- as the DO I shadowed (who was an internist and a PCOM alumni) was proud to be an osteopathic physician trained in OMM, and would NOT have chosen the MD route if she had to do it over. There are DOs who seem to have chosen the DO route as a backup, since they were not accepted at MD institutions who try to minimize the differences between MDs and DOs. Then there are the DOs proud of their profession (some of whom chose DO school even after being accepted to MD school) and they are the ones who enjoy talking about the osteopathic philosophy and the differences between the two. So yes, it is confusing for the general public, and I understand where they are coming from. It's confusing to pre-med students as well.

I most likely will be going the DO path myself, and I feel happy to go this route. I do hope osteopathic principles and preventive medicine are emphasized, else I will feel cheated to have bought into the 'osteopathic philosophy' and not have it delivered to me as promised (although I don't really see it as an 'osteopathic philosophy' per se, but rather principles of good medicine). But since DOs schools keep hyping this up, I expect them to deliver the goods to me as a student.

Eh, expect it to be there but I wouldn't expect it to be emphasized as much as its hyped. OMT provides a great mode of diagnosing MSK disorders as well as providing amelioration of symptoms of other problems, however I really do not think it does much more than emphasize superior palpatory skills and comfort in putting your hands onto a patient with confidence. Perhaps I will be able to see a difference in the way I approach problems when I am on my clerkships, however I do believe that it is mostly marketing and profession title that separates the osteopathic medical profession from the medical profession. Now that I am an OMS in my second-year, I do appreciate becoming a DO as it demonstrates gratitude and respect of those who have come before me and paved the way for the osteopathic profession.

 

[Nick Name]

Hi Guys,

I have been recently accepted to both a DO school (for this coming fall) and SGU (for this January). This obviously does not leave me alot of time to think about what to do. Based on your research and overall experience, what do you suggest I take?

For those that don't know, SGU stands for St. George's University, and is the top Carribean MD school.

I know that I won't get a universal answer, and it really depends on me, but I want to see some cold hard facts before I make a decision (such as residencies, etc.) (for example, I hate hearing "well, you will be an MD over a DO!"). The DO school is an hour from where I live currently, so I am really interested.

I would really appreciate your guys' input on this matter.

Thanks.

If you go to ERAS or FRIEDA and look at the specific residencies you are interested in, you can get an idea of whether its better to be DO or FMG. They will usually have a page of their current residents with their bios. For example , you go to this family medicine residency in Florida (http://www.fhgme.com/FamilyMedMD/residents.htm) and look at their list of residents and you will see that their FMG's outnumber DO's something like 20:1. Now guess..... does the PD favor FMG's from the Carribean or DO's. Here is another in Ohio with about the same findings, 1 DO amidst 15 FMG's ( http://www.cmhregional.com/FPRP_residents.html ). But you will also find programs with the opposite ratio - if you go to SGU and want to do FM or IM, there are ALOT of programs that favor FMG's over DO's by far.

I do think that in general for more competitive ACGME residencies (ER, surgery etc) DO's are given the nod over FMG's. For VERY competitive residencies (Derm, Rad, Neurosurg) its a miracle if FMG's get in and for DO's its a miracle to get into a ACGME program, and still tough to get into AOA programs.

So that is what the reality is for the 3 to 5 years after either SGU or DO school. But then what....

After that its the real world... actual practice.... So if you want to practive a very competitive specialty your only real choice is DO school. Doing derm is tough if you are a DO (due to the difficulty of getting a derm residency) but next to impossible if you are FMG.

But if you are planning on something less competitive like Pedes, or IM or FM or PMR - after residency its better to go Caribbean. Having an MD is way better in the public eye than a DO. Most don't know what a DO is and those that do prefer MD. Most patients in the real world will never ask you where you went to school. If you are a Caribbean MD you can just hang your residency certificate on the wall and it looks like you went whereever...Florida.....Washington......Iowa etc. All the patients knows is you are a MD. And I think 90% of DO students wish they were getting an MD - they don't really believe in OMM, they refer to themselves as "osteopathic MEDICAL DOCTORS". And all DO's I know try to get into ACGME residencies (or combined AOA/ACGME) because they admit the AOA ones really are not as good.

If you want competitive residency - go DO (you still may not get an AOA derm residency for example since it is still competitive but its better than the almost zero chance you have as a Caribean student). If you want non-competitive residency and want to have public cred after residency - go MD any way you can get it.

 

[MaximusD]

[...]If you want non-competitive residency and want to have public cred after residency - go MD any way you can get it.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of reality. In Pennsylvania there is a significant portion of the population that has seen primary care DOs at some point in their life and are confident in their ability. I think it is greatly dependent on regional prevalence of practicing DOs. In the Northeast, I think that you are extremely mistaken... however, you have a great point for those who are going to practice in the mountain west, for example.

 

[Nick Name]

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of reality. In Pennsylvania there is a significant portion of the population that has seen primary care DOs at some point in their life and are confident in their ability. I think it is greatly dependent on regional prevalence of practicing DOs. In the Northeast, I think that you are extremely mistaken... however, you have a great point for those who are going to practice in the mountain west, for example.

Cool. Yess 100% agree on mountain west, and my experience in the midwest is what I said as well. Lots of DO's practice in the midwest, but I have heard patients say they would rather see MD's - but often in small town midwest DO is the only choice.... but that is just anecdotal from what people have said to me

Where did you find the information on Northeast ? - not numbers of people going to DO's but regarding their confidence in or perceptions of the DO's.

 

[Bacchus]

Cool. Yess 100% agree on mountain west, and my experience in the midwest is what I said as well. Lots of DO's practice in the midwest, but I have heard patients say they would rather see MD's - but often in small town midwest DO is the only choice.... but that is just anecdotal from what people have said to me

Where did you find the information on Northeast ? - not numbers of people going to DO's but regarding their confidence in or perceptions of the DO's.

Well, there is LECOM, NYCOM, OUCOM, PCOM, VCOM, UMDNJ, and UNECOM all in the NE. By sheer number there are a lot of DOs in the system. If you go a bit further west there is CCOM and DMU, both great schools. By numbers alone, there is a lot of exposure. With that exposure is positive results. Patients just want to be "cured" of whatever ails them. You don't hear, "You can't help my child because you aren't an MD."

 

[FutureInternist]

If you go to ERAS or FRIEDA and look at the specific residencies you are interested in, you can get an idea of whether its better to be DO or FMG. They will usually have a page of their current residents with their bios. For example , you go to this family medicine residency in Florida (http://www.fhgme.com/FamilyMedMD/residents.htm) and look at their list of residents and you will see that their FMG's outnumber DO's something like 20:1. Now guess..... does the PD favor FMG's from the Carribean or DO's. Here is another in Ohio with about the same findings, 1 DO amidst 15 FMG's ( http://www.cmhregional.com/FPRP_residents.html ). But you will also find programs with the opposite ratio - if you go to SGU and want to do FM or IM, there are ALOT of programs that favor FMG's over DO's by far.

I don't think you can just look at the list of current or even former residents & decide if the PDs like FMGs or DOs better. You have to know how many DOs vs FMGs applied &then how many of those ranked that particular program high etc. There are programs that are very DO friendly but since they are smaller, less recognised etc the DO candidiates (being ANECDOATLY more preferred than their FMG colleagues) may not rank them high since they have many more options.

I do think that in general for more competitive ACGME residencies (ER, surgery etc) DO's are given the nod over FMG's. For VERY competitive residencies (Derm, Rad, Neurosurg) its a miracle if FMG's get in and for DO's its a miracle to get into a ACGME program, and still tough to get into AOA programs.

Agree with the competitve vs non-competetive residency stuff but it is definitely NOT a miracle that DOs get ACGME residencies.

But if you are planning on something less competitive like Pedes, or IM or FM or PMR - after residency its better to go Caribbean. Having an MD is way better in the public eye than a DO. Most don't know what a DO is and those that do prefer MD.

Agree that a lot (maybe not most, although that is dependent on geography) of people do not know what DO is but people preferring MDs over DOs........👎. I don't think you can make such a general statement.

Most patients in the real world will never ask you where you went to school.

So if most people do not ask, what difference does it make??

If you are a Caribbean MD you can just hang your residency certificate on the wall and it looks like you went whereever...Florida.....Washington......Iowa etc. All the patients knows is you are a MD. And I think 90% of DO students wish they were getting an MD - they don't really believe in OMM, they refer to themselves as "osteopathic MEDICAL DOCTORS". And all DO's I know try to get into ACGME residencies (or combined AOA/ACGME) because they admit the AOA ones really are not as good.

If you want competitive residency - go DO (you still may not get an AOA derm residency for example since it is still competitive but its better than the almost zero chance you have as a Caribean student). If you want non-competitive residency and want to have public cred after residency - go MD any way you can get it.

Part of the reason DOs want MD residencies is that, again from what I have been told, it seems easier for a DO from MD residency to get an MD fellowship.
Location is also another BIG factor. There is only ONE DO residency in TX...and there is no way I'm going to Dallas 😀

 

[RySerr21]

While I have not appreciated DrFraud's condescending attitude of DOs not being real doctors (as evidenced here and on ValueMD).... I think he does make a valid point here that should be looked into. His point (below) does have merit.

Why is it acceptable for the AOA to market the osteopathic medical profession as something it's not? The whole purpose of having DOs in A.T. Still's day was to provide an alternative to the mainstraim way of thinking of preventive medicine, the body as a healing unit, etc. If there is no difference today, then why are there 2 separate degree programs? Rather than have the confusion of 2 separate degree programs, they should be merged as one (I'm guessing that would be 'MD' since it is mainstream), but those who are also learning OMM should simply receive an additional 'certificate' in OMM along with their medical degree.

I empathize with those who are confused about what osteopathic medicine is when it's governing organization says one thing, and practitioners say another thing. Furthermore, practitioners don't have concensus-- as the DO I shadowed (who was an internist and a PCOM alumni) was proud to be an osteopathic physician trained in OMM, and would NOT have chosen the MD route if she had to do it over. There are DOs who seem to have chosen the DO route as a backup, since they were not accepted at MD institutions who try to minimize the differences between MDs and DOs. Then there are the DOs proud of their profession (some of whom chose DO school even after being accepted to MD school) and they are the ones who enjoy talking about the osteopathic philosophy and the differences between the two. So yes, it is confusing for the general public, and I understand where they are coming from. It's confusing to pre-med students as well.

I most likely will be going the DO path myself, and I feel happy to go this route. I do hope osteopathic principles and preventive medicine are emphasized, else I will feel cheated to have bought into the 'osteopathic philosophy' and not have it delivered to me as promised (although I don't really see it as an 'osteopathic philosophy' per se, but rather principles of good medicine). But since DOs schools keep hyping this up, I expect them to deliver the goods to me as a student.

I wouldnt expect too much. Every time I have been on an interview or visited a school, or talkeded to a student, I have asked this question. Something along the lines of "Part of the DO philosophy is the emphasis on preventive medicine, what exactly do you do to "emphasize" this? Is there a rotation in preventive medicine? An extra class? etc." A few times I have received blank stares, others time just a flat out answer "No there is nothing like that." and others " We try to emphasize it during courses and what not, but there really is no extra training or course you will take." I did find that DMU offers a course on Preventive Medicine/Nutrition, which is awesome, but that was the only school I came across that did such a thing. Now, I didnt visit every school, nor did I research every school, so there may be others. But in my expereince, there really wasnt any more of an effort than their MD counterparts as far as preventive medicine is concerned. I think thats why people think the "osteopathic philosophy" is just a bunch of hype.

 

[tkim]

Sums it up nicely.

http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/anatomy/p114.htm

The New England Journal of Medicine November 4, 1999;341:1426-1431, 1465-1467.

"The Paradox Of Osteopathy

In the spring of 1864, Andrew Taylor Still, a rural Kansas practitioner, watched helplessly as the best medications then available failed to save his three children from spinal meningitis. Bitterly disappointed, Still set out to devise an alternative healing practice. He eventually based his new system on the idea that manipulation of the spine could improve blood flow and thus improve health by allowing the body to heal itself. His philosophy included a healthy dose of moralism; patients were forbidden to consume any liquor and, as part of the break from existing practices, were also forbidden to take any medicine. Still founded a school to teach his new system of osteopathy in Kirksville, Missouri, in 1892. ..."

 

[Nick Name]

Well, there is LECOM, NYCOM, OUCOM, PCOM, VCOM, UMDNJ, and UNECOM all in the NE. By sheer number there are a lot of DOs in the system. If you go a bit further west there is CCOM and DMU, both great schools. By numbers alone, there is a lot of exposure. With that exposure is positive results.

Cool, I have a date tonight and I was going to take her to a fancy Chinese restaurant, but after reading this I am taking her to McDonalds. There are ALOT more McDonalds in the area compared to this fancy Chinese restaurant - by numbers alone there is alot of exposure, and with that exposure there is positive results. I really want to make a favorable impression on her so McDOnalds it is.

I don't think you can just look at the list of current or even former residents & decide if the PDs like FMGs or DOs better.

Maybe you are right but personally I don't think so. I think if you see 5 years of residents and half are AMG, 49% are DO and 1% are FMG you can make a decision based on that trend. Similarly if the trend is reversed (49% FMG and 1% DO) year after year after year; you can pretty much assume the PD's predilection. I was reading a DO thread about something in Florida and the need for an intern year, and doubt there is any shortage of DO's applying to programs in Florida - so when you see the majority are Caribbean FMG's you can draw an assumption.

There is no poll of PD's to indicate a preference. Some like foreign born IMG's, some like USA trained FMG's, some like DO's - probably all would prefer AMG's but there is a shortage. There are pro's and con's to favoring one or the other : IMG's were probably top notch in their respective countries (but are often confused by USA hospital/medicine mores), FMG's have experience in USA hospitals but sometimes are not the sharpest tacks and sometimes have roadblocks to licensure in some states, and DO's can achieve full licensure more quickly and have no roadblocks to licensing in any state but often did not clear the bar for USA med school for whatever reason - as well some see DO's as having a chip on their shoulders ("little man syndrome" - or "gunners" as they call themselves) and some people get tired of being around someone so anxious about proving themselves.

 

[Bacchus]

Cool, I have a date tonight and I was going to take her to a fancy Chinese restaurant, but after reading this I am taking her to McDonalds. There are ALOT more McDonalds in the area compared to this fancy Chinese restaurant - by numbers alone there is alot of exposure, and with that exposure there is positive results. I really want to make a favorable impression on her so McDOnalds it is.

You asked, I told you. DOs are well received in the NE because there are a lot of them around here.

And, if you were looking to date this girl in the future you probably should take her somewhere that won't cause her to poop all over your car seat.

 

[JaggerPlate]

DO's can achieve full licensure more quickly and have no roadblocks to licensing in any state but often did not clear the bar for USA med school for whatever reason - as well some see DO's as having a chip on their shoulders ("little man syndrome" - or "gunners" as they call themselves) and some people get tired of being around someone so anxious about proving themselves.

This paragraph sounds like the ramblings of the drunk homeless man on the corner. Really couldn't make much sense from this ... going to a DO school in the US = not medical school in the US??? Gunner =/= cut throat pre-med, but does = Osteopathic Medical student??? Weird.

 

[spicedmanna]

Maybe you are right but personally I don't think so. I think if you see 5 years of residents and half are AMG, 49% are DO and 1% are FMG you can make a decision based on that trend. Similarly if the trend is reversed (49% FMG and 1% DO) year after year after year; you can pretty much assume the PD's predilection. I was reading a DO thread about something in Florida and the need for an intern year, and doubt there is any shortage of DO's applying to programs in Florida - so when you see the majority are Caribbean FMG's you can draw an assumption.

Your conclusion, based on percentage of representation for one given site, seems rather obviously spurious to me. In essence, you are attempting to show causation when it isn't clear that there is one. The problem is that there are a number of factors in which you are NOT accounting, or controlling, for. The first and most importantly of which is that you need to look at how many DO's are actually applying for the program in question versus how many FMG/IMG's and AMG-Allo's are applying and then look at how many of each are matching from that given pool. Then you are better able to draw a conclusion. If only 2 DO's apply to the program but all 2 of them get accepted, then this would not suggest a negative bias on the part of the PD. It might still only be 1% of the total, though, which can lead to an erroneous conclusion if you merely focus on that percentage. You need to see what is going on underneath the hood.

Building on my hypothetical scenario, why might only 2 DO's apply? Well, because they aren't as hard up as you might think. While it's true that many DO's choose ACGME residencies, many also choose AOA and dually-accredited programs. It's difficult to make firm conclusions because there is an additional pool of residency programs that take DO's, but not others. It would, I think, help to include this into the equation. So, given this, it might be that DO's simply aren't interested in the program you cite. However, we need to see more data before making any more conclusions.

There is no poll of PD's to indicate a preference. Some like foreign born IMG's, some like USA trained FMG's, some like DO's - probably all would prefer AMG's but there is a shortage. There are pro's and con's to favoring one or the other : IMG's were probably top notch in their respective countries (but are often confused by USA hospital/medicine mores), FMG's have experience in USA hospitals but sometimes are not the sharpest tacks and sometimes have roadblocks to licensure in some states, and DO's can achieve full licensure more quickly and have no roadblocks to licensing in any state but often did not clear the bar for USA med school for whatever reason - as well some see DO's as having a chip on their shoulders ("little man syndrome" - or "gunners" as they call themselves) and some people get tired of being around someone so anxious about proving themselves.

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here, but I sort of doubt the validity of your conclusions here (at least what I can make sense of), which you are passing off as factual. No, it appears to me that they are merely your opinions, some of which seem rather prejudicial and misinformed, or based on your experience. Until you show me some proof, or cite me something to back up your statements, you can expect me to be skeptical.

 

[JonnyG]

Theres also the problem of programs that become known as FMG programs and less american trained docs apply. It happens more often then you think and not for good reasons.

 

[DrFraud]

Theres also the problem of programs that become known as FMG programs and less american trained docs apply. It happens more often then you think and not for good reasons.

Another sweeping generalization. I've worked with some Residents from programs outside the U.S. who are absolutely fantastic. In some cases, they have more years of training plus experience as practicing physicians b-4 coming to the states. They can be a great wealth of knowledge to tap during clerkships, internships, and residency.

 

[DrFraud]

And for anyone in the DO community who continues to believe the fantasy that the road to credibility can be paved by putting down things that are outside the borders of the U.S. or to use a foreign = bad rhetoric........

remember that for years the basic marketing strategy of American automobile manufactures was to use the foreign = bad type of campaigns instead of making cars that actually were competitive, and you can see the end result of this approach by looking at Detroit today.

 

[JaggerPlate]

And for anyone in the DO community who continues to believe the fantasy that the road to credibility can be paved by putting down things that are outside the borders of the U.S. or to use a foreign = bad rhetoric........

remember that for years the basic marketing strategy of American automobile manufactures was to use the foreign = bad type of campaigns instead of making cars that actually were competitive, and you can see the end result of this approach by looking at Detroit today.

Quit crying. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. Go over to ValueMD and read some of those opinions on Caribbean MD vs DO if you want some support for your team. This seriously shouldn't be as us vs them battle as we will all be US physicians in the near future. However, comparing DOs to what's happening to the US auto industry kinda circumvents the whole superior foreign product/failing US economy right now ... not a good comparison and not going to win your any RESPECK points. I leave you with something my grandfather used to tell me when I'd rough house with my older cousins:

"If you want to play with the big boys, don't come crying to me when you get hurt."

You aren't going to win this battle (which shouldn't exist) here. People have made valid points on each side, opinions are obvious, and I think the OP has enough to make an informed decision.

 

[MaximusD]

And for anyone in the DO community who continues to believe the fantasy that the road to credibility can be paved by putting down things that are outside the borders of the U.S. or to use a foreign = bad rhetoric........

remember that for years the basic marketing strategy of American automobile manufactures was to use the foreign = bad type of campaigns instead of making cars that actually were competitive, and you can see the end result of this approach by looking at Detroit today.

So that's what a strawman looks like!

Seriously, no one is saying that foreign grads are inferior because they are foreign. Most of us who have experience with this dichotomy on these boards simply understand the reality of the situation which I will enumerate as follows:

1. In order to gain a decent chance to obtain very competitive allopathic residencies, it is best to end up with an US-MD. Even with the MD from a domestic medical program, it is still extremely difficult to get into a top-tier orthopedics or ROAD residency.

2. The debate between USMD, USDO, FMG MD is NOT based on ACTUAL ability to become a superb physician. Excellent physicians come from all of these institutions. Underwhelming and unprepared physicians do as well. However competitiveness based on biases and reputation often has nothing to do with fact.

3. US MD and DO schools have remarkably low attrition rates, whereas Carib FMG programs notoriously fail out large percentages of students each year.

4. The pecking order for your average PD in an allopathic (ACGME) residency program begins with MD students. Most prefer US-trained physicians, including DO students. DO students often are better recognized by SCHOOL NAME as it is well understood amongst practicing physicians that all DO schools are not created equal. Typically, FMGs are not sought preferentially. It seems to vary by program how receptive they are to FMGs.

5. You DO receive an MD from the caribbean. For some individuals, this is extremely important, and it may be practically important if you plan on moving to an area of the country with low DO representation. OMT, learned by DOs, is an alternative modality from standard medicine. While it does not replace the use of medicine and surgery, if learning manipulation makes you uneasy, the osteopathic medical profession may be a bad decision.

6. In the end, most residencies consider board scores and recommendations to be of paramount importance as well as how you performed during audition rotations at their institution. Considerations such as school of origin and class rank are typically an order of magnitude behind in consideration.

 

[JaggerPlate]

So that's what a strawman looks like!

Seriously, no one is saying that foreign grads are inferior because they are foreign. Most of us who have experience with this dichotomy on these boards simply understand the reality of the situation which I will enumerate as follows:

1. In order to gain a decent chance to obtain very competitive allopathic residencies, it is best to end up with an US-MD. Even with the MD from a domestic medical program, it is still extremely difficult to get into a top-tier orthopedics or ROAD residency.

2. The debate between USMD, USDO, FMG MD is NOT based on ACTUAL ability to become a superb physician. Excellent physicians come from all of these institutions. Underwhelming and unprepared physicians do as well. However competitiveness based on biases and reputation often has nothing to do with fact.

3. US MD and DO schools have remarkably low attrition rates, whereas Carib FMG programs notoriously fail out large percentages of students each year.

4. The pecking order for your average PD in an allopathic (ACGME) residency program begins with MD students. Most prefer US-trained physicians, including DO students. DO students often are better recognized by SCHOOL NAME as it is well understood amongst practicing physicians that all DO schools are not created equal. Typically, FMGs are not sought preferentially. It seems to vary by program how receptive they are to FMGs.

5. You DO receive an MD from the caribbean. For some individuals, this is extremely important, and it may be practically important if you plan on moving to an area of the country with low DO representation. OMT, learned by DOs, is an alternative modality from standard medicine. While it does not replace the use of medicine and surgery, if learning manipulation makes you uneasy, the osteopathic medical profession may be a bad decision.

6. In the end, most residencies consider board scores and recommendations to be of paramount importance as well as how you performed during audition rotations at their institution. Considerations such as school of origin and class rank are typically an order of magnitude behind in consideration.

Good post.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

There is no poll of PD's to indicate a preference. Some like foreign born IMG's, some like USA trained FMG's, some like DO's - probably all would prefer AMG's but there is a shortage. There are pro's and con's to favoring one or the other : IMG's were probably top notch in their respective countries (but are often confused by USA hospital/medicine mores), FMG's have experience in USA hospitals but sometimes are not the sharpest tacks and sometimes have roadblocks to licensure in some states, and DO's can achieve full licensure more quickly and have no roadblocks to licensing in any state but often did not clear the bar for USA med school for whatever reason - as well some see DO's as having a chip on their shoulders ("little man syndrome" - or "gunners" as they call themselves) and some people get tired of being around someone so anxious about proving themselves.

Could you possibly put down any other types of graduates?

You seem a bit confused in your understanding of the matter.

 

[Kuba]

This is silly, US DO school 100% of the time.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

My thoughts on this thread: