Government Already Proposing End to PAYE/PSLF gravy train

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Gombrich12

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http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/...oposes-broader-debt-forgiveness-for-students/

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget15/justifications/s-loansoverview.pdf


"The White House’s latest budget proposal includes new initiatives to ease Americans’ student-debt burdens while nodding to concerns that a debt-forgiveness program enables universities to boost tuition."

Highlights:
  • PAYE would be 25 years
  • PSLF has a cap on forgivness of $57,500, anything remaining will be forgiven after 25 years
  • Married filing separately borrowers will make payments on their combined adjusted gross income.
  • Pre Oct 2007 loans would be PAYE eligible
  • Eliminating the standard payment cap under PAYE so that high-income, high-balance
    borrowers pay an equitable share of their earnings as their income rises
That didn't take long did it?

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Lol, this was obviously going to happen. You have to PAY YOUR DEBTS, folks. The powers that be aren't gonna give high earners a break.
 
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There is over a trillion dollars in student debt that is owed to lenders (the Government). There is no way, and there never was going to be a way that they were just going to write that off. They're going to get that money.
 
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I don't want to say I told you so but I said this two years ago.
 
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Whew! Glad the new high income provision wont apply to people graduating before 2015.

I for one am disappointed that i wont be able to continue my student loan scam rhetoric :(

But obama defines high income as being pretty high .. if they are talking 200k+ or 500k+ ... then this would represent a huge win for pharmacists .. everyone eligible for PAYE and capping negative amortization.. pretty serious business!
 
Whew! Glad the new high income provision wont apply to people graduating before 2015.

I for one am disappointed that i wont be able to continue my student loan scam rhetoric :(

But obama defines high income as being pretty high .. if they are talking 200k+ or 500k+ ... then this would represent a huge win for pharmacists .. everyone eligible for PAYE and capping negative amortization.. pretty serious business!


I wouldn't be optimistic about their definition of "high", I mean we can't even write our student loan interest off past 75k lol. For a new graduate, high earning is 50k lmao, if you average out all the $0/year deadbeats.
 
I wouldn't be optimistic about their definition of "high", I mean we can't even write our student loan interest off past 75k lol. For a new graduate, high earning is 50k lmao, if you average out all the $0/year deadbeats.

I thought the cap for interest deduction is 150k. My acct already factored my deduction in even!
 
I knew there was a reason why I voted for this guy. Obama wants to expand PAYE to everyone but in order to pay for it, he is limiting and restricting working professionals with high student loan debt like pharmacists, dentists, lawyers, physicians. Remember this is just Obama's initial offer. The republicans have not negotiated with him yet. Expect it to be more strict.

Are you really surprise? He did the same thing with subsidize graduate loans.

I have been saying this for a while now. The government doesn't have our back. We don't have lobbyists like the rich and we don't have the votes like the poor.
 
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I knew there was a reason why I voted for this guy. Obama wants to expand PAYE to everyone but in order to pay for it, he is limiting and restricting working professionals with high student loan debt like pharmacists, dentists, lawyers, physicians. Remember this is just Obama's initial offer. The republicans have not negotiated with him yet. Expect it to be more strict.

Are you really surprise? He did the same thing with subsidize graduate loans.

I have been saying this for a while now. The government doesn't have our back. We don't have lobbyists like the rich and we don't have the votes like the poor.

Even if narrowed, still would not be retroactive
 
I thought the cap for interest deduction is 150k. My acct already factored my deduction in even!

You are thinking small. It is not even a tax credit. Max $2500 tax deduction per year so that is what? 2500 x 0.3 = $750 in saving per year or $2 per day. Just ditch your Starbucks and you would save more money
 
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My main thought is who is going to come out of the woodwork and oppose these proposals? My guess is the for-profit bottom tier education entities (Corinthian Colleges, Univ. of Phoenix, etc...) will come out swinging to help gut some of these proposals.

Interesting now that this proposal incentives divorce, so we're writing another marriage penalty into law.

I wouldn't jump on this yet, I'll have a more detailed post when I get a chance assuming the above regulations make it into law.

Provisional thoughts on this:

1) If you're married to another high earning professional, you're pretty screwed.

2) Removal of payment cap under PAYE won't affect anyone here when balance > ~1.3x annual income. A $230k loan balance yields a standard 10yr payment = $2670/mo. The removal of this cap under IBR/PAYE means you'd have to make > $320,400/yr to exceed the cap under the 10% PAYE

3) There was probably not going to be anything to forgive at the end anyway. Most of us will end up married and/or in RDP's with someone of like mind and therefore like income. Don't forget annual raises in the equation.

4) This might actually improve the financial situation of EVERY pharmacist, not just those lucky enough to work for gov't/non-profits. Also, with borrowers who took their loans out earlier and were not able to take advantage of PAYE, there are immediate benefits, take this (simplified) example:

Single RPh graduated 2011 works for CVS and pulls in $130k/yr with a $230k loan balance @ 7% as of today (unsubsidized for simplicity's sake).

Old method:
IBR, no PSLF, 2% annual raise


Initial payments: $1410/mo, rises to $1668 @ year 10; max payment = $2149 (cap = $2670)
Total paid (P&I): $500,000
Amount forgiven: ZERO, time to loan completion 23.8 years.

Does not qualify for PAYE, nothing to forgive at 25 years.

New method:
PAYE 10%/25yr (Obama FY2015 proposal), no PSLF, 2% annual raise, 3% poverty level increase

Initial payments: $943/mo, rises to $1112/mo @ year 10; $1333/mo @ year 20.
(due to calculator limitation, I had to assume from year 20-25, no raises + no further compounding interest)
Total paid: $350,000
Amount forgiven: $200,000




The big loser will be the person who gets the PSLF cap as shown below:

Scenario: RPh who graduated 2011 working for non-profit at $130k/yr, $230k student loan debt (unsubsidized for simplicity) @ 7%

Old method:
IBR 15%/10yr PSLF, 2% annual raises, 3% poverty level increase

Initial payment: $1415/mo, rises to max of $1668/mo.
Total paid: $184,707
Amount forgiven: $192,283

New method
PAYE 10%/10 yr PSLF capped @ $57,500 remaining paid at year 10; 2% annual raises, 3% poverty level increase.

Initial payment: $943/mo, rises to $1112/mo @ year 10;
Bulk payment occurs at year 10 of $57,500.

@ year 10, total paid = $123,138
PSLF bulk payment @ year 10 = $57,500
Balance remaining @ year 10 after above payments = $205,761

@ year 10, income is now $158,469/yr and new balance is $205,761, let's start the final 15 years of PAYE:

Initial payment: $1180* @ year 10, rises to $1531/mo @ year 25.
Balance remaining @ year 25 = $167,965

Bottom line:
Total Paid: $366,022
Amount forgiven: $225,465

Difference between the two: +$181,315 extra paid over 25yrs



Does anyone want to try to validate my numbers? Calculators used:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr10.phtml
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr.phtml

Did not take into account NPV of $$, my bad.
 
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Confettiflyer! Coming through in the clutch!

I nominate for loan calculation post of the year.

After reviewing your numbers and arguments .. I would see this as actually a huge boon for basically everyone. I didnt see a marriage penalty much either.

What is the current cap? Do you mean the cap of 15% of income? Or do you think they mean the cap as in there is a fixed # out there for debt to income ratio?

The only "crackdown/end of gravy train" situation I see is that pslf is effectively nixed for high debt individuals ie doctors.

Which imho is all fair and good, the ibr/paye forgiveness benefit is way less tacky than a pathologist or neurosurgeon writing off 500k for 10 years of residency + fellowship
 
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Confettiflyer! Coming through in the clutch!

I nominate for loan calculation post of the year.

Hey hey hey now....someone verify my numbers, it was kind of a rush job while I wrap up at work.

EDIT: something is wonky, big picture, it says that a retail pharmacist will pay ~the same/a bit less than a hospital pharmacist who gets a bulk $57,500 payment at year 10. that intuitively does not make sense, i'll analyze when i get a chance.

My original argument still stands, though, regarding the expansion of benefit to those at for-profits.
 
Hey hey hey now....someone verify my numbers, it was kind of a rush job while I wrap up at work.

EDIT: something is wonky, big picture, it says that a retail pharmacist will pay ~the same/a bit less than a hospital pharmacist who gets a bulk $57,500 payment at year 10. that intuitively does not make sense, i'll analyze when i get a chance.

My original argument still stands, though, regarding the expansion of benefit to those at for-profits.

Can you explain how the cap thing works? All I can think is that they say currently payments are capped at 10% of income above 150% of poverty . And that that cap would be eliminated. I feel your logic instinctively but not sure how it works exactly.

Paye's main selling point was the 10% cap.. it seems weird they would eliminate that wholesale , when the initiative being proposed is being sold as a boon.

Thankfully if they do raise that to say, 20% for high income borrowers, basically everyone on here could just choose to stay in ibr. I think the new scheme would apply only to those borrowers who took their first loan in 2015 or after. Which makes sense since it would substantially affect some peoples financial analysis of education roi

Edit: when I say 2015 I mean that is the year after which new borrowers will no longer be eligible for IBR and ICR .. so basically the only graduated payment option will be the new 'modified' PAYE
 
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You are thinking small. It is not even a tax credit. Max $2500 tax deduction per year so that is what? 2500 x 0.3 = $750 in saving per year or $2 per day. Just ditch your Starbucks and you would save more money

Someone with true financial acumen knows that a penny saved is a penny earned. As wage earners, the small things are our opportunity to win financially.

Over a career and the life of a 25 year repayment plan , that deduction is worth at least $50,000 - not chump change

Also I would like to think that I am smart enough not to flush my money down the toilet by buying daily starbucks.

Didnt the book: "millionaire next door" (or something similar) make the claim that someone who invested the equivalent of a starbucks coffee per day could reap nearly $500,000 by retirement time?
 
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Can you explain how the cap thing works? All I can think is that they say currently payments are capped at 10% of income above 150% of poverty . And that that cap would be eliminated. I feel your logic instinctively but not sure how it works exactly.
No, currently the monthly payment under IBR or PAYE is capped at what your payment would be if you were on the standard 10 year plan.
A $230k loan balance yields a standard 10yr payment = $2670/mo. The removal of this cap under IBR/PAYE means you'd have to make > $320,400/yr to exceed the cap under the 10% PAYE
So to be affected, you would have to be earning way over $320k for 10% of your income under PAYE to exceed the $2,670/mo 10 yr payment. Under the proposed plan, that $2,670/mo cap is eliminated, and you will still pay 10% of your income.
 
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No, currently the monthly payment under IBR or PAYE is capped at what your payment would be if you were on the standard 10 year plan.

So to be affected, you would have to be earning way over $320k for 10% of your income under PAYE to exceed the $2,670/mo 10 yr payment. Under the proposed plan, that $2,670/mo cap is eliminated, and you will still pay 10% of your income.

Ahhh! This makes so much sense. Thank you.

I will now go so far as to say this is the best financial related news ive heard in years.

So all other things equal... highly indebted borrowers with high debt to income ratios would basically receive a 33% reduction in their monthly payments if they were previously only eligible for IBR.

Epic!
 
The elimination of the 10 year payment kind of kills the whole thing for me. I can understand the need for these programs if someone has 250-300k plus in loans.

To me a reduced payment isn't that great unless I am in dire financial need. 25 years of paying off loans? Hell no, especially if it involves a big tax bill at the end of it. I would much rather live on a very tight budget for 4-5 years and pay off 3k plus/monthly to wipe out my student loan than to drag the whole thing out.

This is a good discussion, but I wouldn't get too excited until the we see the terms in the final proposal.
 
Obama's proposal (remember, he has not negotiated with the republican controlled house of congress yet so expect less favorable terms):

Losers:
(1) People on PSLF: the max forgiveness is now 57 k, then you would be on PAYE for another 15 years. Whatever that is forgiven then, you would need to pay taxes
(2) People who are on PAYE: it just went from 20 to 25 years (you still need to pay tax on any amount that is "forgiven" after 25 years)
(3) High earning couples: higher monthly payment
(4) People who are currently on PSLF, PAYE, IBR: won't be grandfathered in?

Winners:
(1) people who have loans before 2007 and people who are delinquent o their student loans: they can now qualify for PAYE
 
Obama's proposal (remember, he has not negotiated with the republican controlled house of congress yet so expect less favorable terms):

(4) People who are currently on PSLF, PAYE, IBR: won't be grandfathered in?


From the budget proposal:
Students who borrowed their first loans prior to July 1, 2015, would continue to be able to select among the existing repayment plans (for plans for which they now qualify and for loans originated through their current course of study), in addition to the modified PAYE.
 
Won't this cost the government more money by expanding the use of PAYE and forgiveness even if it's after 25 years? My gut says there'll be republican pushback, but I'm waiting for the cost analyses by people smarter than me.

I'll look at my post later, I spent the evening catching up on my DVR.
 
Won't this cost the government more money by expanding the use of PAYE and forgiveness even if it's after 25 years? My gut says there'll be republican pushback, but I'm waiting for the cost analyses by people smarter than me.

I'll look at my post later, I spent the evening catching up on my DVR.

For one, it closes the expected 2017-onward doctor PSLF loophole doing residency + fellowship + few years of work and getting significant loans forgiven.
 
For one, it closes the expected 2017-onward doctor PSLF loophole doing residency + fellowship + few years of work and getting significant loans forgiven.

Which was NEVER going to happen. I'm going to go visit the FinAid forum and see what they are saying but LOL if anyone thinks the public would stand for the neurosurgeon/lawyer/dentist getting their entire student loan balance forgiven.
 
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Whether it is IBR x25 years, PAYE x20 years or PAYE x25 years, they are all pretty sh*tty. You are going to pay a load of interest x20-25 years and then you are going to be stuck with a tax bill on any amount that is forgiven.

My advise is this: (1) the government is not going to erase your sudent loans; pay it off as much as you can and as soon as you can; (2) don't ever take financial advise from people who have a load of debt. If these people knew what they are doing, they wouldn't be in this situation.
 
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Single RPh graduated 2011 works for CVS and pulls in $130k/yr with a $230k loan balance @ 7% as of today (unsubsidized for simplicity's sake).

New method:
PAYE 10%/25yr (Obama FY2015 proposal), no PSLF, 2% annual raise, 3% poverty level increase

Initial payments: $943/mo, rises to $1112/mo @ year 10; $1333/mo @ year 20.
(due to calculator limitation, I had to assume from year 20-25, no raises + no further compounding interest)
Total paid: $350,000
Amount forgiven: $200,000
Under this scenario, I concur with the total amount paid of roughly $350k. However, I believe the amount forgiven will be much higher. For the first 20 years or so, the 10% PAYE payment is actually not enough to cover the interest of $1,341/mo. I believe the remaining interest goes unpaid, and accumulates in your account, but does not get capitalized. This also means that you do not pay down the principal at all for the first 20 years.

At 25 years, there will be $53k in unpaid interest + $227k principal balance = $280k forgiven. But remember, more forgiven is actually a bad thing due to the 'tax bomb'. Let's assume you pay 30% tax on this, so $84k. This brings the total amount paid to $350k + $84k = $434k.

Also, I'd rather compare all of these scenarios to the standard 10 year repayment plan, so here it is:

Standard 10 year plan
Payment: $2,670/mo for 10 years
Total paid: $320,459
(Includes interest: $90,459)
 
I'm pretty sure most of you are missing that this proposal would also include making IBR/PAYE forgiveness non-taxable.
 
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Also with inflation, your 100k loan in 30 years isn't going to cost nearly as much in real dollars.
 
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Under this scenario, I concur with the total amount paid of roughly $350k. However, I believe the amount forgiven will be much higher. For the first 20 years or so, the 10% PAYE payment is actually not enough to cover the interest of $1,341/mo. I believe the remaining interest goes unpaid, and accumulates in your account, but does not get capitalized. This also means that you do not pay down the principal at all for the first 20 years.

At 25 years, there will be $53k in unpaid interest + $227k principal balance = $280k forgiven. But remember, more forgiven is actually a bad thing due to the 'tax bomb'. Let's assume you pay 30% tax on this, so $84k. This brings the total amount paid to $350k + $84k = $434k.

Also, I'd rather compare all of these scenarios to the standard 10 year repayment plan, so here it is:

Standard 10 year plan
Payment: $2,670/mo for 10 years
Total paid: $320,459
(Includes interest: $90,459)

Agreed. My starting balance is $325,000 .. under the current scheme, forgiven balance will be $850,000
 
Also, if understand correctly, PAYE would be at 15% for people with loans about the $57,500, so calculations factoring in large-loan payments at 10% are probably incorrect based on this proposal. People with high loans will still pay at 15%, not 10%.
 
Also with inflation, your 100k loan in 30 years isn't going to cost nearly as much in real dollars.
If inflation on an annual basis for the next 30 years is greater than your APR, we're all in trouble.
 
I made a calculator that uses these assumptions to compare 10 year standard repayment versus paye (10%) with 25 years and ibr (15%) with 25 years.

https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do?rid=12cbmc30000dfdfe544caaa27e581caf66a76

Play around with the numbers, but this is definitely a better deal than the old IBR25 plan even without taking into account tax-free forgiveness. The people that are really hurt are those who project to have really high earnings in the future.
 
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I really hope the government figures out a plan for student loan…

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 
Agreed. My starting balance is $325,000 .. under the current scheme, forgiven balance will be $850,000

The proposed max forgiveness for public service loan is 57 k and you expect the government to forgive 850 k?
 
The people that are really hurt are those who project to have really high earnings in the future.

And people who qualify for the current PAYE x 20 years.

Remember this is a proposal under a democratic president. The final legislation may not be as generous and who knows what is going to happen during the next 25 years.

I see the government helping people with undergrad loans but not people with graduate loans. Dentists, lawyers, physicians, pharmacists? No way. We are not 18 year old kids and no one forced us to take these loans. We are certainly better off than the general public. If anything, I see the government taking money from us and giving it to the undergrads.
 
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I see the government helping people with undergrad loans but not people with graduate loans. Dentists, lawyers, physicians, pharmacists? No way.

This is what I mean. Just read the proposed bill (page S13):
http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget15/justifications/s-loansoverview.pdf

The Budget proposes additional changes to PAYE to include:

• Eliminating the standard payment cap under PAYE so that high-income, high-balance borrowers pay an equitable share of their earnings as their income rises;

• Calculating payments for married borrowers filing separately on the combined household Adjusted Gross Income;

• Capping Public Sector Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) at the aggregate loan limit for independent undergraduate students to protect against institutional practices that may further increase student indebtedness, while ensuring the program provides sufficient relief for students committed to public service;

• Establishing a 25-year forgiveness period for borrowers with balances above the aggregate loan limit for independent undergraduate students ;

• Preventing payments made under non-income driven repayment plans from being applied toward PSLF to ensure that loan forgiveness is targeted to students with the greatest need; and

• Capping the amount of interest that can accrue when a borrower’s monthly payment is insufficient to cover the interest to avoid ballooning loan balances.
 
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I'm going into orthopedics and will have a long residency (and my wife makes $50k). Even then I did my calculations and it doesn't make sense to be on any of these IBR/PAYE repayment plans. They are essentially credit card scams at 7% interest rate. And even with loan forgiveness, you're going to get a whopping tax bill.

If you can pull in $100k in household income, then you should be able to afford the standard payment plan (which is $2300/mo for my debt level at $180k). $100k take home is about $72k, or $6000 per month. Mortgage nowadays for a $400,000 home is about $2000/mo. Don't buy a Lexus or M3, keep driving your clunker. You'll still have about $1500/mo for discretionary spending and you're putting some good equity into your house over the course of 10 years. It doesn't make sense to invest in stock market, because it's really hard to get more than 7% returns now that Dow is back at its peak. You'd be better off paying off your 7% interest rate loans, because guess what, that is automatic 7% returns! You also get $750 a year back in tax refunds for interest deductions, good for buying electronic gadgets.

It sucks, but you're done in 10 years, while your kids are still young, instead of dragging this for 20-25 years while your kids are about to go to college themselves.
 
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Someone with true financial acumen knows that a penny saved is a penny earned. As wage earners, the small things are our opportunity to win financially.

Over a career and the life of a 25 year repayment plan , that deduction is worth at least $50,000 - not chump change

I don't know where you got $50 k in saving. $750 x 25 years = $18,759

This is what I mean by thinking small. You are so conscious about this small tax deduction while you are more than happy to pay interest for the next 25 years? It doesn't make sense to spend a buck so you can save a quarter.

P.S have you seen the tax reforming coming from house of congress lately? They are proposing to end student loan interest rate deduction. It may not happen soon but your plan is at the mercy of these politicians.
 
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This is what I mean by thinking small. You are so conscious about this small tax deduction while you are more than happy to pay interest for the next 25 years? It doesn't make sense to spend a buck so you can save a quarter.
Im saying It because using ibr has already saved me $150,000. What do I focus on next? The small things. Interest vs principal is not even relevant with these size of loans.
 
Im saying It because using ibr has already saved me $150,000. What do I focus on next? The small things. Interest vs principal is not even relevant with these size of loans.
How does IBR save you anything? Loan forgiveness? You realize you're going to be hit a 40% tax bill on that $150,000 that will put you right back at square one? And you're paying 7% interest over 15 more years on a large principal.
 
How does IBR save you anything? Loan forgiveness? You realize you're going to be hit a 40% tax bill on that $150,000 that will put you right back at square one? And you're paying 7% interest over 15 more years on a large principal.

Read insolvency exclusion for forgiveness of indebtedness.
 
I don't know where you got $50 k in saving. $750 x 25 years = $18,759

This is what I mean by thinking small. You are so conscious about this small tax deduction while you are more than happy to pay interest for the next 25 years? It doesn't make sense to spend a buck so you can save a quarter.

P.S have you seen the tax reforming coming from house of congress lately? They are proposing to end student loan interest rate deduction. It may not happen soon but your plan is at the mercy of these politicians.

750 x 25 *compounding*

Also have you seen the proposals to expand the interest rate deduction?
 
Im saying It because using ibr has already saved me $150,000. What do I focus on next? The small things. Interest vs principal is not even relevant with these size of loans.

I don't want to point out your financial blunders but I don't want students to think this is the way to go:

(1) you shouldn't have gone to an out of state, high tuition pharmacy school.
(2) you shouldn't have maxed out your student loans and use some of that money for personal expenses
(3) you shouldn't make financial plans that could easily be changed by the political wind in Washington
(4) you shouldn't depend on loan forgiveness without paying tax on it when you have a load of debt. If loans are forgiven then what is going to stop someone from maxing out his loans? They would pay the same amount regardless if they borrowed 50 k or 100 k. If there is any loan and tax forgiveness, expect the amount to be meager.

How are you going to pay 320 k in student loan debt on a pre-taxed , annual salary of 120 k especially in this saturated job market? You can't. All of your hope is on IBR. Don't think you will be free once you have stopped working. Your social security and retirement fund is a source of income the government will go after.
 
Read insolvency exclusion for forgiveness of indebtedness.

You are not giving a full picture. When you declare insolvency everything you own is up for grabs including your retirement accounts like your 401 k. So you have two choices:

(1) Cashed out your retirement funds early but then you would need to pay income tax plus an additional 10% tax penalty or
(2) Not put money into retirement funds but then you would lose out on company matches. Just to give you an idea: 120 k annual salary (with 2% annual increase), contribute 5% of salary with 100% company match up to 5%, 7% historical rate of return would generate more than $2.5 millions if you start at 28 year old and retire at 65.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/401-k-retirement-calculator.aspx
 
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Just remember, this government only gives free money to the poor or the filthy rich (QE to infinity).
It doesn't represent you as a pharmacist or physician. It only takes money from you to pay for the above two categories.
 
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If your plan is to be insolvent in your early to mid 50s, then I would recommend another plan.
 
Technical insolvency not practical insolvency.

If your debts exceed your assets you are insolvent.

Assets= house + retirement + vehicles + anything else you own

I don't want to be insolvent at ANY point if I don't have to be. Pay off that debt as quickly as you can
 
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