Gunner Stories

[LunaOri]

There was a PhD gunner in one class at my school. As a 3rd year student, when rounding with the M4, would introduce herself by saying "I'm Dr. W, and this is the medical student." Ended up in ENT.

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[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

There was a PhD gunner in one class at my school. As a 3rd year student, when rounding with the M4, would introduce herself by saying "I'm Dr. W, and this is the medical student." Ended up in ENT.

It's mind boggling that they probably got decent evals even though they introduced themselves as a doctor in a clinical setting

 

[Lawpy]

There was a PhD gunner in one class at my school. As a 3rd year student, when rounding with the M4, would introduce herself by saying "I'm Dr. W, and this is the medical student." Ended up in ENT.

It's mind boggling that they probably got decent evals even though they introduced themselves as a doctor in a clinical setting

What if attendings encouraged gunners? I really am starting to think the corruption of clinical years allows the gunners to thrive

 

[Osteosaur]

What if attendings encouraged gunners? I really am starting to think the corruption of clinical years allows the gunners to thrive

School selection process encourages it, and isn't the entire premise of the gunner that you're rigging things so you look good on paper while not really doing anything 'wrong'?

After all the fellow students you're screwing over don't get to evaluate you (and gunners would corrupt such a system in a heartbeat) and won't speak up, or fear they'll look petty, if you told them the wrong time to come in. The only thing you maybe get dinged on is constantly interrupting during presentations, right?

 

[Lawpy]

School selection process encourages it, and isn't the entire premise of the gunner that you're rigging things so you look good on paper while not really doing anything 'wrong'?

After all the fellow students you're screwing over don't get to evaluate you (and gunners would corrupt such a system in a heartbeat) and won't speak up, or fear they'll look petty, if you told them the wrong time to come in. The only thing you maybe get dinged on is constantly interrupting during presentations, right?

So the moral of the thread is: never trust a fellow student since they're likely going to sabotage you for personal gain

Do MS4s grade MS3s? Because if they don't, MS3s can freely throw MS4s under the bus with zero issues.

Always suck up to residents and attendings, and make them happy. Never care about fellow students and sabotaging them may be encouraged. Fun times.

 

[catnip12]

What piece of crap school do you go to? Jesus.

^Bad taste.

Someone at my school deleted a tried and true study guide (made several years ago by a thoughtful student) off of our class drive and then replaced it but changed most of the answers. Most of the class failed the exam. They figured out who did it. It went to the dean and he got a slap on the wrist. That person is a resident now.

 

[sunshinefl]

What if attendings encouraged gunners? I really am starting to think the corruption of clinical years allows the gunners to thrive

So the moral of the thread is: never trust a fellow student since they're likely going to sabotage you for personal gain

Do MS4s grade MS3s? Because if they don't, MS3s can freely throw MS4s under the bus with zero issues.

Always suck up to residents and attendings, and make them happy. Never care about fellow students and sabotaging them may be encouraged. Fun times.

I dunno I’ve routinely pledged that I would call out gunners on their evals as a resident and attending.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

^Bad taste.

The school knew the student purposely sabotaged the entire class for personal gain and essentially did nothing. That is a ****ty admin.

 

[Ho0v-man]

The school knew the student purposely sabotaged the entire class for personal gain and essentially did nothing. That is a ****ty admin.

Yeah their logic was supposedly that we shouldn’t be relying on materials outside of the required reading in the syllabus. So a study guide made by a random student shouldn’t have been everyone’s plan to pass as outside sources can have errors while our curricula are infallible. They also say this when the curriculum contradicts board materials.

But admin complaints are beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Neopolymath]

I feel lucky!

I had no M3/M4 student gunners just a few outlier absolutely ****ty residents (that were probably gunners as students lol). I had a few students I didn't particularly enjoy being around but certainly not gunners.

There were some rumors preclinical about some true gunner behavior but it didn't involve me and I don't know that it's actually true. Who knows?

 

[Mad Jack]

Someone at my school deleted a tried and true study guide (made several years ago by a thoughtful student) off of our class drive and then replaced it but changed most of the answers. Most of the class failed the exam. They figured out who did it. It went to the dean and he got a slap on the wrist. That person is a resident now.

Wow, what a legendary piece of trash that dude must be. Wtf is wrong with some people

 

[Spectreman]

Gunner is certainly relative. I’m sure the gunners I know would defend themselves some way or another. And I’m sure someone thinks of me as a gunner in their book somehow.

Everyone is a villain in someone’s story. -Thanos

 

[Banco]

There was a PhD gunner in one class at my school. As a 3rd year student, when rounding with the M4, would introduce herself by saying "I'm Dr. W, and this is the medical student." Ended up in ENT.

Lmao the audacity of that flex.

 

[Osminog]

Medical school admissions tends to select for students with the sharpest elbows, the students who devoted their undergrad years to padding their resumes, getting A's, and sucking up to professors by any means necessary. It's no surprise that every medical school class has at least a few students with hypercompetitive mindsets and sneaky intentions. It's unpleasant to have gunner classmates, but the real victims are these students' future patients.

 

[sunshinefl]

I had auditioning visiting M4s when I was an M3 that I felt were gunners. Some of them would pimp me/other M3s in front of the residents/attendings to flex what they knew. That was super annoying.

 

[Damson]

Wow, what a legendary piece of trash that dude must be. Wtf is wrong with some people

Gonna take a different approach. Rather than wasting energy hating on the gunners you've encountered along this journey, we should try to gaze upon them with pity and empathy. When the thought of other students doing well/doing better than they are induces enough anxiety and discomfort that they need to go out of their way to relieve that tension by doing something weird and unnatural, it's clear their thought process is conditioned earlier (intentionally or unintentionally by hypercompetitive peers or parents).

The only way to help them is if someone observing their behavior(often someone they've victimized) approaches them from a position of kindness and non-judgment, which pretty much doesn't happen.

 

[Lawpy]

Medical school admissions tends to select for students with the sharpest elbows, the students who devoted their undergrad years to padding their resumes, getting A's, and sucking up to professors by any means necessary. It's no surprise that every medical school class has at least a few students with hypercompetitive mindsets and sneaky intentions. It's unpleasant to have gunner classmates, but the real victims are these students' future patients.

What if gunners actually care about patients and working with colleagues but are invested in sabotaging classmates in med school because they hate their classmates and only care about getting what they want?

 

[Neopolymath]

Gonna take a different approach. Rather than wasting energy hating on the gunners you've encountered along this journey, we should try to gaze upon them with pity and empathy. When the thought of other students doing well/doing better than they are induces enough anxiety and discomfort that they need to go out of their way to relieve that tension by doing something weird and unnatural, it's clear their thought process is conditioned earlier (intentionally or unintentionally by hypercompetitive peers or parents).

The only way to help them is if someone observing their behavior(often someone they've victimized) approaches them from a position of kindness and non-judgment, which pretty much doesn't happen.

You can't fix true gunners. Sorry.

 

[Lawpy]

How closely related is gunning with clinical grades? Are gunners likely to straight honor M3 by sabotaging their classmates? Or can the sabotaged classmates can fire back against gunners?

Because if gunners can freely match into surgical subs and other top specialties/programs, there's a problem

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The only way to help them is if someone observing their behavior(often someone they've victimized) approaches them from a position of kindness and non-judgment, which pretty much doesn't happen.

Have you tried this with an actual gunner lol?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

How closely related is gunning with clinical grades? Are gunners likely to straight honor M3 by sabotaging their classmates? Or can the sabotaged classmates can fire back against gunners?

Because if gunners can freely match into surgical subs and other top specialties/programs, there's a problem

Probably depends. I’ve seen some people say gunners do great, but I’ve also seen people say it’s really obvious and is reflected poorly in grading.

 

[Lawpy]

Probably depends. I’ve seen some people say gunners do great, but I’ve also seen people say it’s really obvious and is reflected poorly in grading.

looks like smart gunning is the way to go. What's stopping a gunner telling their classmates they can leave only to end up going back for rounds and accusing their classmates for ghosting? There doesn't seem a way for sabotaged classmates to fire back.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

looks like smart gunning is the way to go. What's stopping a gunner telling their classmates they can leave only to end up going back for rounds and accusing their classmates for ghosting? There doesn't seem a way for sabotaged classmates to fire back.

Nothing. That’s why it happens. The risk is that you’re at a rotation site where they don’t dig that kind of **** and you shoot yourself in the foot. Also, it makes you an dingus.

 

[Lawpy]

Nothing. That’s why it happens. The risk is that you’re at a rotation site where they don’t dig that kind of **** and you shoot yourself in the foot. Also, it makes you an dingus.

They won't know if the gunner and sabotaged classmate talked privately though?

Really it's looking like don't trust any classmate unless you're friends.

 

[Damson]

Have you tried this with an actual gunner lol?

Sort of but not really. Short version is, one tried covertly to influence me to score lower on exam 2 because they didn't like my score on the first exam. After he knew I knew what he was trying, he couldn't look me in the eye for a while. He was relieved and showed his appreciation when I told him I didn't mind anymore after a while.

I think our interaction was helpful for change.

 

[slowthai]

They won't know if the gunner and sabotaged classmate talked privately though?

Really it's looking like don't trust any classmate unless you're friends.

I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw em...which, despite my hulking size, isn't very far

But seriously, I plan to verify whether I trust them or not. That's how you cover yourself.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I had auditioning visiting M4s when I was an M3 that I felt were gunners. Some of them would pimp me/other M3s in front of the residents/attendings to flex what they knew. That was super annoying.

I had a fellow auditioner try this on me during my sub-I. Mind you this is my home program where I know all the residents and attendings. I shrugged and told him I don’t answer pimp questions from peers. His face was priceless.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They won't know if the gunner and sabotaged classmate talked privately though?

Really it's looking like don't trust any classmate unless you're friends.

It usually doesn’t just stop there that one time though.

Sort of but not really. Short version is, one tried covertly to influence me to score lower on exam 2 because they didn't like my score on the first exam. After he knew I knew what he was trying, he couldn't look me in the eye for a while. He was relieved and showed his appreciation when I told him I didn't mind anymore after a while.

I think our interaction was helpful for change.

Yeah I believe in just calling these people out. Not in an aggressive or rude way, just as a matter of fact kind of way. Usually gets them to stop doing it to you.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I had a fellow auditioner try this on me during my sub-I. Mind you this is my home program where I know all the residents and attendings. I shrugged and told him I don’t answer pimp questions from peers. His face was priceless.

For real. That would be my response too.

 

[Lawpy]

It usually doesn’t just stop there that one time though.



Yeah I believe in just calling these people out. Not in an aggressive or rude way, just as a matter of fact kind of way. Usually gets them to stop doing it to you.

What about broadly and consistently sabotaging classmates in ways that aren't apparent? Like answering someone else's pimp questions when not called is an obvious problem. But what about consistently lying and underminining classmates in a way that can't be complained to attendings/residents? Like fake promises and false tips. This is the smart gunning problem.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What about broadly and consistently sabotaging classmates in ways that aren't apparent? Like answering someone else's pimp questions when not called is an obvious problem. But what about consistently lying and underminining classmates in a way that can't be complained to attendings/residents? Like fake promises and false tips. This is the smart gunning problem.

Why can’t you call that out?

 

[Lawpy]

Why can’t you call that out?

Because of fears that residents/attendings can casually dismiss it as part of the game? Or maybe they don't have anything to believe on unless they actually witnessed it? Also what's stopping the gunner from denying the sabotaged classmate's claims and actually accuse them of undermining teamwork? Unless the sabotaged classmate is documenting every encounter through objective evidence or reliable 3rd party, they don't seem to have any recourse.

 

[getfat]

'Trip over his feet to hold the door for the attending

Could be a Kiss a** or overtly nice person. But i'm w/e about that. Some people really put the "attending" position on a high pedestal. I'm personally w/e about people that do that. If you feel the need to then go for it.

'records lab values of all patients on the list and is ready to chirp up when everyone was just assigned two to follow'

If its not another students patient, then personally i feel its fine. The student feels comfortable with their patients (they could be rocks) and wants to show initiative and help the intern with other pts.

They may need a LOR or on a Sub-I. Thats w/e they want to stand out. Putting in extra work like things like that should be recognized.

 

[getfat]

So the moral of the thread is: never trust a fellow student since they're likely going to sabotage you for personal gain

Trust but verify everything anyone tells you.

 

[deleted889094]

What about broadly and consistently sabotaging classmates in ways that aren't apparent? Like answering someone else's pimp questions when not called is an obvious problem. But what about consistently lying and underminining classmates in a way that can't be complained to attendings/residents? Like fake promises and false tips. This is the smart gunning problem.

A person with a screwed up moral compass who feels ok doing that will be an end unto themselves. I say protect yourself and get whatever Justice you can by calling it out, but ultimately you can't stop someone who wants to stoop low.

And I seriously doubt residents and attendings are just completely unaware of suck-ups and snakes. Just be a likeable, hardworker

 

[Mad Jack]

Gunner is certainly relative. I’m sure the gunners I know would defend themselves some way or another. And I’m sure someone thinks of me as a gunner in their book somehow.

Everyone is a villain in someone’s story. -Thanos

Anyone who tosses other people under the bus to get ahead is a gunner. Everyone else is just working hard.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Gunner is certainly relative. I’m sure the gunners I know would defend themselves some way or another. And I’m sure someone thinks of me as a gunner in their book somehow.

Everyone is a villain in someone’s story. -Thanos

Gunner isn’t relative. It has been misused by people who just don’t want to work as hard to mean anyone working harder than them. But that’s not really what a gunner is. A real gunner is someone who purposely throws people under the bus to benefit themselves.

You’re not a gunner if you study more than anyone, stay late when you don’t need to, etc. That’s just a different level of work and is fine. People who don’t want to do that might call you a gunner just to make themselves feel better about their choice, but you aren’t.

Now if you tell your co-student that you were told you both can leave and then double back and stay late to look better and make the other student look bad? Then you’re a gunner. Nothing relative about that.

 

[MedScat]

I had this M4 gunner (I'm an M3, she's applying surgery on her Sub-I). Me and the other M3 on our team were taking care of this patient in the SICU for the past week before the M4 got there. He was intubated with a gaping open wound. He couldn't talk to us but could nod and semi-communicate. We changed his dressings daily and developed a relationship with him over this time. M4 starts her rotation a week later, tries to take over changing the dressings. We try to push back and get there early so we could do it before her. On our last day of the rotation, she walked in and we were changing the dressing. The residents walked in and saw us changing it and you could tell she was bummed that we were caught being helpful and she wasn't the one doing the dressing change. Anyhow, the residents leave and we're finishing up and she's frantically looking for something to do. Out of nowhere, she bends over to the intubated, sick, critically ill patient in the ICU and says "did you hear Trump was diagnosed with COVID, hopefully he'll die"

This is the most inappropriate thing I've seen in medical school so far. And to think, she's going to be a surgeon next year
(not a political post just, human decency man, come on. She knew nothing about this man and still felt that was an appropriate thing to say)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I had this M4 gunner (I'm an M3, she's applying surgery on her Sub-I). Me and the other M3 on our team were taking care of this patient in the SICU for the past week before the M4 got there. He was intubated with a gaping open wound. He couldn't talk to us but could nod and semi-communicate. We changed his dressings daily and developed a relationship with him over this time. M4 starts her rotation a week later, tries to take over changing the dressings. We try to push back and get there early so we could do it before her. On our last day of the rotation, she walked in and we were changing the dressing. The residents walked in and saw us changing it and you could tell she was bummed that we were caught being helpful and she wasn't the one doing the dressing change. Anyhow, the residents leave and we're finishing up and she's frantically looking for something to do. Out of nowhere, she bends over to the intubated, sick, critically patient in the ICU and says "did you hear Trump was diagnosed with COVID, hopefully he'll die"

This is the most inappropriate thing I've seen in medical school so far. And to think, she's going to be a surgeon next year
(not a political post just, human decency man, come on. She knew nothing about this man and still felt that was an appropriate thing to say)

Holy ****. How did she not get a professionalism mark for that?

 

[MedScat]

Holy ****. How did she not get a professionalism mark for that?

No one heard it but me and the other M3 (and the intubated patient)....believe me I went back and forth in my head wondering if I should report it....I probably should have. It still bothers me pretty often

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No one heard it but me and the other M3 (and the intubated patient)....believe me I went back and forth in my head wondering if I should report it....I probably should have. It still bothers me pretty often

Uh yeah. I mean not to pile on you because it’s over and there’s nothing you can do now, but holy **** yes that is something you should report. What a sociopath (her, not you).

 

[Damson]

I had this M4 gunner (I'm an M3, she's applying surgery on her Sub-I). Me and the other M3 on our team were taking care of this patient in the SICU for the past week before the M4 got there. He was intubated with a gaping open wound. He couldn't talk to us but could nod and semi-communicate. We changed his dressings daily and developed a relationship with him over this time. M4 starts her rotation a week later, tries to take over changing the dressings. We try to push back and get there early so we could do it before her. On our last day of the rotation, she walked in and we were changing the dressing. The residents walked in and saw us changing it and you could tell she was bummed that we were caught being helpful and she wasn't the one doing the dressing change. Anyhow, the residents leave and we're finishing up and she's frantically looking for something to do. Out of nowhere, she bends over to the intubated, sick, critically ill patient in the ICU and says "did you hear Trump was diagnosed with COVID, hopefully he'll die"

This is the most inappropriate thing I've seen in medical school so far. And to think, she's going to be a surgeon next year
(not a political post just, human decency man, come on. She knew nothing about this man and still felt that was an appropriate thing to say)

sigh
i don't think she'll make a good surgeon if she's this anxious about one interaction at the end of a sub-i

 

[MedScat]

sigh
i don't think she'll make a good surgeon if she's this anxious about one interaction at the end of a sub-i

My last day of the rotation, her 4th day or something (the end of her first week). She was such a gunner - I wouldn't call it anxiety I'd call it more like wanting to look like the most important student while making us look bad. Thats what she was frantically trying to do lol. But yeah, theres many other reasons why she won't be a good surgeon this was just the worst example of many.

 

[Damson]

No one heard it but me and the other M3 (and the intubated patient)....believe me I went back and forth in my head wondering if I should report it....I probably should have. It still bothers me pretty often

It doesn't have to bother you. It's just one of the things some people do.

 

[sloop]

Was walking out with another student during an audition. Dude goes “oh wait, I forgot something I’ll catch ya tomorrow.” Dude stays another 3 hours going “not sure what happened to the other guy, he disappeared I guess.” The entire time.

Maybe I’m in the minority on this, but this would backfire if I was his resident.

I’m assuming med students on audition rotations are not going home before somebody tells them to do so. If I tell the med students to go home, I expect them to go home. If one of them then came back and started implying to other staff that the other student just “disappeared,” I would be pissed. That medical student would get a stern (but respectful) lecture on teamwork, professionalism and, frankly, common decency. They would then be dismissed and told that I don’t want to see them again until the morning. This type of behavior would be detailed in their evaluation for the rotation and would factor heavily into the grade I give them.

 

[deleted889094]

Gunner isn’t relative. It has been misused by people who just don’t want to work as hard to mean anyone working harder than them. But that’s not really what a gunner is. A real gunner is someone who purposely throws people under the bus to benefit themselves.

You’re not a gunner if you study more than anyone, stay late when you don’t need to, etc. That’s just a different level of work and is fine. People who don’t want to do that might call you a gunner just to make themselves feel better about their choice, but you aren’t.

Now if you tell your co-student that you were told you both can leave and then double back and stay late to look better and make the other student look bad? Then you’re a gunner. Nothing relative about that.

Right. Gunner doesn't refer to anyone "gunning" for a competitive specialty etc, it's anyone who "guns" someone down.

 

[EM hope]

I had this M4 gunner (I'm an M3, she's applying surgery on her Sub-I). Me and the other M3 on our team were taking care of this patient in the SICU for the past week before the M4 got there. He was intubated with a gaping open wound. He couldn't talk to us but could nod and semi-communicate. We changed his dressings daily and developed a relationship with him over this time. M4 starts her rotation a week later, tries to take over changing the dressings. We try to push back and get there early so we could do it before her. On our last day of the rotation, she walked in and we were changing the dressing. The residents walked in and saw us changing it and you could tell she was bummed that we were caught being helpful and she wasn't the one doing the dressing change. Anyhow, the residents leave and we're finishing up and she's frantically looking for something to do. Out of nowhere, she bends over to the intubated, sick, critically ill patient in the ICU and says "did you hear Trump was diagnosed with COVID, hopefully he'll die"

This is the most inappropriate thing I've seen in medical school so far. And to think, she's going to be a surgeon next year
(not a political post just, human decency man, come on. She knew nothing about this man and still felt that was an appropriate thing to say)

As an M3, I tried to help out M4s and make them look good (especially on their subi). As an M4, I did the same for my peers (eg I walk by their pt and happen to see something really interesting going on and let them know so they could assist). On my subi, I was told to do well I should show interest in any/all procedures even if it’s another student’s patient and be forward about it.

 

[MedScat]

As an M3, I tried to help out M4s and make them look good (especially on their subi). As an M4, I did the same for my peers (eg I walk by their pt and happen to see something really interesting going on and let them know so they could assist). On my subi, I was told to do well I should show interest in any/all procedures even if it’s another student’s patient and be forward about it.

Should you also say that you hope another human dies to a patient in the ICU? thats the real issue here....
Maybe if you're missing that part then you're my M4!!

 

[Lawpy]

I had this M4 gunner (I'm an M3, she's applying surgery on her Sub-I). Me and the other M3 on our team were taking care of this patient in the SICU for the past week before the M4 got there. He was intubated with a gaping open wound. He couldn't talk to us but could nod and semi-communicate. We changed his dressings daily and developed a relationship with him over this time. M4 starts her rotation a week later, tries to take over changing the dressings. We try to push back and get there early so we could do it before her. On our last day of the rotation, she walked in and we were changing the dressing. The residents walked in and saw us changing it and you could tell she was bummed that we were caught being helpful and she wasn't the one doing the dressing change. Anyhow, the residents leave and we're finishing up and she's frantically looking for something to do. Out of nowhere, she bends over to the intubated, sick, critically ill patient in the ICU and says "did you hear Trump was diagnosed with COVID, hopefully he'll die"

This is the most inappropriate thing I've seen in medical school so far. And to think, she's going to be a surgeon next year
(not a political post just, human decency man, come on. She knew nothing about this man and still felt that was an appropriate thing to say)

What a sociopath

 

[ohmanwaddup]

I wonder why the Navy/USMC call a CWO-1 through CWO-5 a Gunner? maybe because they are hard chargers and ass kickers in their MOS, and you want to follow them when the ****s hit the fan as in combat? Not the same as gunners in med school I guess.

boot