harder for Asians to get into med school?

LikeClockWork · Oct 8, 2007

I liked this thread better when it was all emoticons.... 😀

DoctaJay · Oct 8, 2007

II. With an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them

III. Patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors
- Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000)

IV. More minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities.
-The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002)

V. A diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors.
- An Evidentiary Framework for Diversity as a Compelling Interest in Higher Education, 109 Harv. L. Rev. 1357, 1372-73 (1996)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Is there a URM check box?

No. But you are allowed to designate whether you are Caucasian, Black, Asian, Indian, etc.

5) Isn't AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don't blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases. Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

And I quote from the AAMC, "The consideration of race and ethnicity in medical school admissions has not, as some critics suggest, led to a less competent physician workforce. The vast majority of minority medical students graduate from medical school and go on to pass their license examinations. See Jordan J. Cohen, Finishing the Bridge to Diversity, 72 Academic Medicine 103, 108 (1997); Questions and Answers, supra, at 3 (noting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination). These achievements are the ultimate benchmarks of medical competency. Minority applicants admitted to medical schools succeed, and with this success comes the benefits of diversity to our society as a whole."

Also, remember Dr. Ben Carson (and he is clearly NOT the only successful minority doctor) would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child's brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, "Relying on MCAT scores and GPA's alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school." This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.

8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, "No "race-neutral" factor can effectively substitute for
the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting "economic hardship" for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician's race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician's socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,
176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine."

11) What will happen if AA is banned from medical schools?
Let's look to California for our example; and I quote from the AAMC, "In California, which banned affirmative action by way of Proposition 209, the enrollment of underrepresented minorities in the state's medical schools dropped after the ban was put in place and remains at inadequate levels. …the total number of African American, Hispanic and Native American applicants to the five University of California medical
schools dropped from 4,165 in 1995-96 to 2,593 in 2001-2002; and that, "for the 2001-02 school year, the five UC medical schools enrolled an average of four African Americans, nine Hispanics, and no Native Americans each."

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

No. And I quote from the AAMC, "It is well documented that underrepresented minorities – African Americans, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto
Ricans and Native Americans — generally do not perform as well on the MCAT as the rest of the population. See Nettles & Millett, supra, at 159. For example, in the year 2001, the average MCAT scores for white applicants were 9.1 in Verbal Reasoning, 9.2 in Physical Sciences and 9.5 in Biological Sciences; in contrast, the average scores for underrepresented minorities were 6.9, 7.0 and 7.3, respectively. A similar phenomenon is
seen in GPA's. This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the "lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;" the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.

13)Does AA confer an advantage to applicants in the medical school process?
OF COURSE. If AA did not increase minority enrollment, it would not be used. In 2001, a total of 15,336 non-URMs were accepted into medical school. If AA was not used in the application process in 2001, then 16,667 non-URMs would have been accepted. In 2001, in the presence of AA, 1,868 URM applicants were accepted. If AA wasn't used in the process, it is "projected" that only 537 URMs would have been accepted in 2001. But once again, it must be clearly stated that the AAMC primarily cares about the overall healthcare availability for ALL Americans; not whether you "felt" shafted in the application process. So if it benefits society, it will continue to be used.

TheRealMD · Oct 8, 2007

Sir Buckethead said:
No, impossible sounds more like it. Face it, you're looking at numbers, and numbers do not tell the whole story.

Now, I don't want to offend anyone here, but theres a stereotype involving asian parents pushing their kids towards advanced degrees. If true, this stereotype means that perhaps due to cultural factors there tend to be more asians applying to medical school that are not really following their passion, just doing whats expected. If the adcoms are able to tell, then they might vote down a technically qualified applicant.

This is just an example of a potential lurking variable, one of thousands which makes drawing blanket conclusions from matriculant MCAT scores quite thoroughly impossible.

Ding! 👍

BigRedPremed · Oct 8, 2007

flaahless said:
What that data doesn't show are the schools that cater mostly to people of color. Howard, Morehouse, Meharry, Drew, Ponce etc. Those schools, except for Drew, typically have "stats" that are remarkably lower than the national average. Don't be confused and think that URMs with 26 and 3.3 are competitive for Stanford.

Actually, someone did the calculations on this. Even when you take out the URM's at HBC's, the stats of the URM's at other med schools are still significantly lower.

parto123 · Oct 8, 2007

flaahless said:
OMG! Dawg I hate when people use the writings of Linda Chavez or some Ward Connerly BS to whine about med school admissions.

Linda Chavez has a vendetta against minorities. Her data is HEAVILY biased and always skewed.

Her opinions and conclusions may be skewed, but her data is all straight from michigan med school, who had to provide this information under the freedom of information act. and they dont dispute these numbers.

BigRedPremed · Oct 8, 2007

parto123 said:
Her opinions and conclusions may be skewed, but her data is all straight from michigan med school, who had to provide this information under the freedom of information act. and they dont dispute these numbers.

Thanks for the data. Whether someone agrees with AA or not, I still fail to comprehend how anyone can deny its effect. The data is plainly available for all to see.

TheRealMD · Oct 8, 2007

BigRedPremed said:
Thanks for the data. Whether someone agrees with AA or not, I still fail to comprehend how anyone can deny its effect. The data is plainly available for all to see.

But people want to interpret the numbers to prove their point, no matter how far-fetched it actually seems.

flaahless · Oct 8, 2007

parto123 said:
Her opinions and conclusions may be skewed, but her data is all straight from michigan med school, who had to provide this information under the freedom of information act. and they dont dispute these numbers.

Man, don't believe the hype. Politicians are very manipulative and can make "numbers" appear any way they want.

Quick example. Say I have 1 apple, and 100 oranges. I add 1 more apple to my collection so that I now have 2, and add 1 more orange so that I now have 101.

Even though I admitted the same number of apples as oranges, I could be like, "my apple population increased by 100%, while my orange population only increased 1%. Therefore, I'm obviously discriminating against the oranges." That's that Linda Chavez BS right there.

Furthermore, there is a lot more to an applicant that just pure stats. I like how so many of you on this forum conveniently ignore that.

flaahless · Oct 8, 2007

BigRedPremed said:
Thanks for the data. Whether someone agrees with AA or not, I still fail to comprehend how anyone can deny its effect. The data is plainly available for all to see.

Hater.

HoboCommander · Oct 8, 2007

I can understand if someone is a minority and due to being a minority has had a difficult struggling life, and therefore the admissions allow a lower MCAT and GPA. But to think that all, or even close to all, black people has had it hard is ridiculous. Some of my black friends grew up rich and spoiled their entire life, and just party and play video games all day. They maintain a 3.2GPA in college and get a 24 on the MCAT, and get into med school. Whereas, many whites and asians have struggled far more in their lives and worked a lot harder, but need much higher stats to get into med school. If the school simply wants to produce more doctors that serve the underserved, they can simply find out from the application via the personal statement and ECs.

Yogos · Oct 8, 2007

All I know is that Stephen Chow rocks my sock drawer...and now back to microbio studying...er...

AlexMorph · Oct 8, 2007

HoboCommander said:
I can understand if someone is a minority and due to being a minority has had a difficult struggling life, and therefore the admissions allow a lower MCAT and GPA. But to think that all, or even close to all, black people has had it hard is ridiculous. Some of my black friends grew up rich and spoiled their entire life, and just party and play video games all day. They maintain a 3.2GPA in college and get a 24 on the MCAT, and get into med school. Whereas, many whites and asians have struggled far more in their lives and worked a lot harder, but need much higher stats to get into med school. If the school simply wants to produce more doctors that serve the underserved, they can simply find out from the application via the personal statement and ECs.

That is no guarantee that said person will really serve in an underserved area. They might do all the right things to get in to med. school but still try hard for ortho/rads/derm to make the big bucks.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that a rich URM is more likely to serve an underserved area than a poor white guy. The rich guy has no connections with such a lifestyle and hence will most likely choose to not work under those conditions.

I am not for or against AA. Don't flame me for that stuff. Pick on the arguments that I've presented if you would like.

osli · Oct 8, 2007

flaahless said:
Quick example. Say I have 1 apple, and 100 oranges. I add 1 more apple to my collection so that I now have 2, and add 1 more orange so that I now have 101.

Even though I admitted the same number of apples as oranges, I could be like, "my apple population increased by 100%, while my orange population only increased 1%. Therefore, I'm obviously discriminating against the oranges." That's that Linda Chavez BS right there.

That's ridiculous. Analyses of URM/AA impact on admissions looks at stats and acceptance rates from the various applicant pools. Make up any excuses you want... the numbers are out there for anyone to see. The data is not up for argument, simply the social implications of such practice.

The sole purpose of AA is to draw under-represented groups into medicine. Why would you deny that the program fails to accomplish its explicit purpose?

DoctaJay · Oct 8, 2007

HoboCommander said:
I can understand if someone is a minority and due to being a minority has had a difficult struggling life, and therefore the admissions allow a lower MCAT and GPA. But to think that all, or even close to all, black people has had it hard is ridiculous. Some of my black friends grew up rich and spoiled their entire life, and just party and play video games all day. They maintain a 3.2GPA in college and get a 24 on the MCAT, and get into med school. Whereas, many whites and asians have struggled far more in their lives and worked a lot harder, but need much higher stats to get into med school. If the school simply wants to produce more doctors that serve the underserved, they can simply find out from the application via the personal statement and ECs.

While it is true that there are rich black people out there, your example is annecdotal at best. The fact that all of your black friends are rich just tells me that you are rich also; not that rich black people are cheating the system everywhere. Research has shown that regardless of status, minorities tend to go into underserved areas:

8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, "No "race-neutral" factor can effectively substitute for
the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting "economic hardship" for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician's race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician's socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,
176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority

All of my black friends are from the middle class and most want to do either primary care or mission work, even the one's that go to CCLM and Mayo. People just tend to serve their own, which is the basis for AA. Its the means to an end.

flaahless · Oct 8, 2007

osli said:
That's ridiculous. Analyses of URM/AA impact on admissions looks at stats and acceptance rates from the various applicant pools. Make up any excuses you want... the numbers are out there for anyone to see. The data is not up for argument, simply the social implications of such practice.

The sole purpose of AA is to draw under-represented groups into medicine. Why would you deny that the program fails to accomplish its explicit purpose?

Wtf are you talking about? I never denied it idiot. I was simply illustrating how Linda Chavez has a LONG history of manipulating numbers to satisfy her overt anti-minority agenda. If you read her writings, you would think that med schools are letting in convicts rather than qualified individuals.

Secondly, I never once tried to get into a debate about AA. But that is how all these threads turn out.

flaahless · Oct 8, 2007

HoboCommander said:
I can understand if someone is a minority and due to being a minority has had a difficult struggling life, and therefore the admissions allow a lower MCAT and GPA. But to think that all, or even close to all, black people has had it hard is ridiculous. Some of my black friends grew up rich and spoiled their entire life, and just party and play video games all day. They maintain a 3.2GPA in college and get a 24 on the MCAT, and get into med school. Whereas, many whites and asians have struggled far more in their lives and worked a lot harder, but need much higher stats to get into med school. If the school simply wants to produce more doctors that serve the underserved, they can simply find out from the application via the personal statement and ECs.

Damn dawg. There are PLENTY of places on a med school application to discuss one's personal hardship. The disadvantaged section, the personal statement, the secondary essays, maybe do some volunteer work in disadvantaged neighborhoods. I don't care how many "black" friends you have who play video games all day and bask in mediocrity, they do not represent the whole group and they will get their justice in med school.

If your other friends struggled in life and didn't get into med school, tell them to write a stronger personal statement. If they need help, get at me. Other than that, stop b*tching because you do not know what other aspects of your friends applications appealed to adcoms, or didn't appeal to them. And until you know that, everything you say is merely conjecture.

HoboCommander · Oct 8, 2007

flaahless said:
Damn dawg. There are PLENTY of places on a med school application to discuss one's personal hardship. The disadvantaged section, the personal statement, the secondary essays, maybe do some volunteer work in disadvantaged neighborhoods. I don't care how many "black" friends you have who play video games all day and bask in mediocrity, they do not represent the whole group and they will get their justice in med school.

If your other friends struggled in life and didn't get into med school, tell them to write a stronger personal statement. If they need help, get at me. Other than that, stop b*tching because you do not know what other aspects of your friends applications appealed to adcoms, or didn't appeal to them. And until you know that, everything you say is merely conjecture.

you do not know how to read. stop wasting my time.

Muggle731 · Oct 9, 2007

flaahless said:
Hater.

flaahless said:
Wtf are you talking about? I never denied it idiot.

hey flaahless, I understand if this is a topic that you're passionate about. But engaging in personal attacks in your responses like you did above isn't called for, and detracts from the tone of this debate. If you don't agree with something, then say so; if you have counter-evidence to back up your opinions (like DoctaJay has been offering throughout this thread), then by all means provide it. Letting your emotions get ahead of you, however... 🙄

flaahless · Oct 9, 2007

Muggle731 said:
hey flaahless, I understand if this is a topic that you're passionate about. But engaging in personal attacks in your responses like you did above isn't called for, and detracts from the tone of this debate. If you don't agree with something, then say so; if you have counter-evidence to back up your opinions (like DoctaJay has been offering throughout this thread), then by all means provide it. Letting your emotions get ahead of you, however... 🙄

👍

flaahless · Oct 9, 2007

HoboCommander said:
you do not know how to read. stop wasting my time.

👎

FSAP · Oct 9, 2007

HoboCommander said:
But to think that all, or even close to all, black people has had it hard is ridiculous.

Slavery, segregation, physical and mental abuse, isolation from the mainstream society...good times all around. Or you think what happened just a generation ago doesn't matter?

jae9970 · Oct 9, 2007

now what if AA existed in NBA too. Every team needs to have 3 asian players.

haha..

flaahless · Oct 9, 2007

jae9970 said:
now what if AA existed in NBA too. Every team needs to have 3 asian players.

haha..

👍

NurbekIL said:
Slavery, segregation, physical and mental abuse, isolation from the mainstream society...good times all around. Or you think what happened just a generation ago doesn't matter?

👍

FSAP · Oct 9, 2007

jae9970 said:
now what if AA existed in NBA too. Every team needs to have 3 asian players.

haha..

What about jail? Blacks and Latinos are clearly overrepresented, so we either lock up more white people or let some ORM's go.

flaahless · Oct 9, 2007

NurbekIL said:
What about jail? Blacks and Latinos are clearly overrepresented, so we either lock up more white people or let some ORM's go.

👍

DoctaJay · Oct 9, 2007

NurbekIL said:
What about jail? Blacks and Latinos are clearly overrepresented, so we either lock up more white people or let some ORM's go.

Lol, I'm totally behind you on this 😀.

riceman04 · Oct 9, 2007

the sideline is the place to be in these types of arguments

I am too tired to argue over crap like this...I am permanently benching myself...I am no longer part of the starting five

Blade28 · Oct 9, 2007

Prediction: this thread won't end well!

DrPavoreal · Oct 9, 2007

I have some valid statistical arguments to make, but as I know it will be a useless effort, I won't bother. 👍

I will say this...it will be extremely interesting to see how you pre-meds treat your non-Caucasian and non-Asian classmates when/if you matriculate next year. 🙄

Even more interesting will be how you treat your future patients, but I digress. 😴

CycleCA · Oct 9, 2007

flaahless said:
And, its unfair to think that "asians" all share the same experiences. A Cambodian refugee is going to experience a different hardship than a Japanese immigrant. So we must first account for the vast heterogeneity in the difficulties experienced in that broad, ridiculous/racist categorization of "asian."

Well said. There are so many different types of asians, and it's unfair to classify them into one broad category. Just like they do to white people.

MelnaisLacis · Oct 9, 2007

I really don't see how 18% is considered over represented. Especially when you look at how many people in the world are "Asian." I don't think adcoms discriminate against asians though. They know that most asians have the culture of working hard and striving to excel. I do find it funny that people say that Meharry and Howard aren't discriminatory though when you look at the classes and see a large discrimination taking place. Reverse racism at its finest.

TheRealMD · Oct 9, 2007

MelnaisLacis said:
I really don't see how 18% is considered over represented. Especially when you look at how many people in the world are "Asian." I don't think adcoms discriminate against asians though. They know that most asians have the culture of working hard and striving to excel. I do find it funny that people say that Meharry and Howard aren't discriminatory though when you look at the classes and see a large discrimination taking place. Reverse racism at its finest.

😵

Err.... have you looked at Howard or Meharry's mission statement? For most people, it doesn't fit them at all. Don't think that just because a person is black that they can get in. That makes no sense.

AlexMorph · Oct 9, 2007

TheRealMD said:
😵

Err.... have you looked at Howard or Meharry's mission statement? For most people, it doesn't fit them at all. Don't think that just because a person is black that they can get in. That makes no sense.

Good point. Now, where can I find the Asian only med. schools?
(My question is meant to be a joke.)

mints of b · Oct 9, 2007

DoctaJay said:
Here's a little help for your research on AA:

Underrepresented Minorities Get in Easier: UNFAIR: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332544
MCRI battles AA in Michigan: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=331226
AA totally out of control?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324769
Who agrees with affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323889
Amazing URM fact-oid:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306866
So when do the less qualified people get invites?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=315055
Diversity in Med School:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262097
Howard, Moorehouse, and Meharry SOM'S....low GPAs?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=309219
affirmative action thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46604
what is URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306827
URM Status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=12020
URM status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286946
You thought we have it bad. Check this out:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286302
What is the advantge to being an URM when applying?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=285817
whats the difference between ethnicity and race?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=283152
native american-how much blood to be considered URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281362
URM acceptance rates – confused:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=270608
My Skin Is 'White,' but I'm Gonna Claim URM Status. Any Thoughts?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=274301
Hispanic Applicants and AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235379
URM benefits???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=239656
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
AA in med:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235528
Do you think it is wrong to put myself down as a minority?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234632
ethnicity a factor in acceptance?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234441
Does being hispanic help?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=233933
Asians: ORM= really bad news?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221780
Who's this African American URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221853
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
Affirmative Action - Med School Admis:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=215366
Minority Acceptance:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=208025
Affirmative Action!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203685
Affirmative Action in Medical Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203601
Minorities in med school:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=190172
"Let Asians compete freely with white students.":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70922
Affirmative Action Again!!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=186948
Disadvantage if Asian-American male?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=182886
Interesting aa article (NYTIMES):http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=179526
Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175977
Marginalization of average white males:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174092
Under-represented groups:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=173587
affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=168516
Reverse affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=165859
Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=162406
does 1/4 URM count?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=159790
Diversity disappointment:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155920
Am I URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=151874
Study: Too few minorities in health care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=150933
AA - thoughts on overrepresentation as well:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=141039
More on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132594
A note about Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134799
It's sad to be asian:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134683
Not just another Affirmative Action thread.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133164
Underrepresented in Medicine and the ethnicity breakdown in the US:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119146
Some asians may have a legit reason to want URM status but...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119131
Affirmative Action and Diversity in Admissions:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95471
"Underrepresented":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=116785
Affirmative Action and Med School Application:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=111772
reply about the "problems with asians" thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85539
Another thought on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102358
Afirmative Action and its place in MEDICINE!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102533
Why Is an Affirmative Action Debate Moved From Pre-Allo:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102369
for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53999
The Problem with AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96949
AA: Why does everyone get so worked up?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96133
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95297
I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=86457
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=87760
Historically Black Medical Schools:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78969
why do we have AA for grad school??:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=76640
retire affirmative action thread?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=75569
Why Asian American Students Succeed:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74452
We are neglecting the meaningful questions relating to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74149
The official AAAAAA thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74168
An ORM who sides with the URM folks.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71199
Rallying my fellow URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68499
AA the thread to end all threads....:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73478
AA and nonURM minorities:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73161
If you like/dislike AA, watch Dateline RIGHT NOW:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71384
AA Solution? Need feedback.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71935
Sobering realities and statistics of AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71823
Why URM's should NOT worry about the Supreme Courts' decision.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70811
Why Are Black Students Lagging?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71103
Applying Disadvantaged- Affirmative Action for UC Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68067
Why do WHITES complain about AA???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66957
Rich URM's vs. poor whites and Asians:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65768
AAMC president on diversity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=67316
Why is diversity of ethnicity sooo important?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66935
A solution to selection by race...Individualism:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65919
An Alternative to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66037
I am sick of people complaining about AA and URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65889
Minorities in Medicine:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62673
am I a URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=61718
Ignore Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46603
Why do non-URM envy the so-called "advantage" the URM have for admissions?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48465
CNN AA Poll:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56293
What are your most recent feeling towards the debate about Affirmative Action?come in:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56307
Chances as a ORM??? UGHHH:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53809
underepresented minority edge:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=51799
U.Michigan: Lack of Diversity?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=45309
revealing ethnic identity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=43576
Do Adcoms compare GPAs and MCATs by URM status?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320954
RACISM, Foriegn MED Students/Doctors and the REASON's WHY:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=317813
Different playing field for URMs: MCAT and GPA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313272
Justification to admit URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313510
opinion on URM..repeat? dont care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=372527
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEDICAL SCHOOL MATRCULANTS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=62.1%
Asian= 18.6%
Hispanic= 7.0%
Black= 6.5%
Native American= 0.3%
Multiple Race= 3.0%
Other= 1.0%
Foreign= 1.3%

U.S. PHYSICIANS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=36.7%
IMG=23.6%
Unknown=27.6%
Native American= 0.3%
Black= 3.3%
Hispanic/Latino= 2.8%
Asian= 5.7%

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren't Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

I. Minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas
-Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of
1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985)
- Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995)

II. With an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them

III. Patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors
- Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000)

IV. More minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities.
-The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002)

V. A diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors.
- An Evidentiary Framework for Diversity as a Compelling Interest in Higher Education, 109 Harv. L. Rev. 1357, 1372-73 (1996)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Is there a URM check box?

No. But you are allowed to designate whether you are Caucasian, Black, Asian, Indian, etc.

5) Isn't AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don't blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases. Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

And I quote from the AAMC, "The consideration of race and ethnicity in medical school admissions has not, as some critics suggest, led to a less competent physician workforce. The vast majority of minority medical students graduate from medical school and go on to pass their license examinations. See Jordan J. Cohen, Finishing the Bridge to Diversity, 72 Academic Medicine 103, 108 (1997); Questions and Answers, supra, at 3 (noting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination). These achievements are the ultimate benchmarks of medical competency. Minority applicants admitted to medical schools succeed, and with this success comes the benefits of diversity to our society as a whole."

Also, remember Dr. Ben Carson (and he is clearly NOT the only successful minority doctor) would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child's brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, "Relying on MCAT scores and GPA's alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school." This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.

8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, "No "race-neutral" factor can effectively substitute for
the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting "economic hardship" for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician's race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician's socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,
176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine."

11) What will happen if AA is banned from medical schools?
Let's look to California for our example; and I quote from the AAMC, "In California, which banned affirmative action by way of Proposition 209, the enrollment of underrepresented minorities in the state's medical schools dropped after the ban was put in place and remains at inadequate levels. …the total number of African American, Hispanic and Native American applicants to the five University of California medical
schools dropped from 4,165 in 1995-96 to 2,593 in 2001-2002; and that, "for the 2001-02 school year, the five UC medical schools enrolled an average of four African Americans, nine Hispanics, and no Native Americans each."

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

No. And I quote from the AAMC, "It is well documented that underrepresented minorities – African Americans, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto
Ricans and Native Americans — generally do not perform as well on the MCAT as the rest of the population. See Nettles & Millett, supra, at 159. For example, in the year 2001, the average MCAT scores for white applicants were 9.1 in Verbal Reasoning, 9.2 in Physical Sciences and 9.5 in Biological Sciences; in contrast, the average scores for underrepresented minorities were 6.9, 7.0 and 7.3, respectively. A similar phenomenon is
seen in GPA's. This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the "lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;" the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.

13)Does AA confer an advantage to applicants in the medical school process?
OF COURSE. If AA did not increase minority enrollment, it would not be used. In 2001, a total of 15,336 non-URMs were accepted into medical school. If AA was not used in the application process in 2001, then 16,667 non-URMs would have been accepted. In 2001, in the presence of AA, 1,868 URM applicants were accepted. If AA wasn't used in the process, it is "projected" that only 537 URMs would have been accepted in 2001. But once again, it must be clearly stated that the AAMC primarily cares about the overall healthcare availability for ALL Americans; not whether you "felt" shafted in the application process. So if it benefits society, it will continue to be used.

😱

😱

MelnaisLacis · Oct 9, 2007

AlexMorph said:
Good point. Now, where can I find the Asian only med. schools?
(My question is meant to be a joke.)

Seriously, where is our rich Asian benefactor that will charter one of these.

ghostfoot · Oct 9, 2007

DoctaJay said:
Th breakdown of our current U.S. Population from Wikipedia:

Whites: 74.7%
Blacks: 12.1%
Asian: 4.3%
Native American: 0.8%
Pacific Islander: 0.1%
Hispanic: 14.5%
Other: 6%
Two or More Races: 1.9%

Ideally, this pie chart should be 100% "Unknown".

BTW, from your stats, whites are clearly underrepresented.

DrPavoreal · Oct 9, 2007

MelnaisLacis said:
Seriously, where is our rich Asian benefactor that will charter one of these.

Here ya go!

Make sure you get a one-way plane ticket. 🙂

ElisaBailey · Oct 9, 2007

It's harder. That's why you should change your race prior to submitting your application.

Ok, that was mean. What I meant to say is stop thinking about it because there's nothing you can do about your ethnicity.

Kthanksbye · Oct 9, 2007

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

Click to expand...

I read the thread, and no one ever said or implied this except you. Please do not start calling people racist because they don't agree with you. All this does is stifle the atmosphere of intellectual freedom our nations universities have worked so hard to create. People might have different opinions about AA and it's effects, whether black or white, and that is acceptable. Many very successful black Americans do not agree with you. Clarence Thomas comes to mind. Really, this issue must be allowed to be discussed without this type of name calling. People can disagree with AA and NOT be racist. As a moderator, you should be trying to prevent posts which only incite argument and hate, not posting them. There is more than one acceptable opinion on this issue and differing opinions deserve to be considered for their worth.

Any time you take a sample of test scores from a reduced population, you get lowered results. Of course this has nothing to do with intelligence. The same phenomenon can be seen when looking at the MCAT scores and GPA's of matriculants to schools which strive to maintain a high in-state population.

This issue is explosive enough without race baiting thrown into it. Let's try to keep an atmosphere of integrity here at least.

AlexMorph · Oct 9, 2007

DrPavoreal said:
Here ya go!

Make sure you get a one-way plane ticket. 🙂

I don't see any in North America ... haha. Maybe some rich American from Asian descent can set one up here ...

DoctaJay · Oct 9, 2007

Kthanksbye said:
I read the thread, and no one ever said or implied this except you. Please do not start calling people racist because they don't agree with you. All this does is stifle the atmosphere of intellectual freedom our nations universities have worked so hard to create. People might have different opinions about AA and it's effects, whether black or white, and that is acceptable. Many very successful black Americans do not agree with you. Clarence Thomas comes to mind. Really, this issue must be allowed to be discussed without this type of name calling. People can disagree with AA and NOT be racist. As a moderator, you should be trying to prevent posts which only incite argument and hate, not posting them. There is more than one acceptable opinion on this issue and differing opinions deserve to be considered for their worth.

Any time you take a sample of test scores from a reduced population, you get lowered results. Of course this has nothing to do with intelligence. The same phenomenon can be seen when looking at the MCAT scores and GPA's of matriculants to schools which strive to maintain a high in-state population.

This issue is explosive enough without race baiting thrown into it. Let's try to keep an atmosphere of integrity here at least.

This FAQ i made was made a long time ago and it has been compiled from numerous, and I mean numerous experiences with AA threads on this site. FAQ #12 simply responds to a question which has been indirectly posed in many AA threads started on SDN. The FAQ comes from experience and is not directed towards anyone in this thread; it is simply there for research purposes. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

paranoid_eyes · Oct 10, 2007

if you're so pissed go into politics....otherwise you can't do **** besides voting (which will never work looking at the population data)

estairella · Oct 10, 2007

DoctaJay said:
This FAQ i made was made a long time ago and it has been compiled from numerous, and I mean numerous experiences with AA threads on this site. FAQ #12 simply responds to a question which has been indirectly posed in many AA threads started on SDN. The FAQ comes from experience and is not directed towards anyone in this thread; it is simply there for research purposes. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

My favourite part of your FAQ is how it sets up straw men who are anti-AA for you to knock down. Here's a counter-example:

5a) Aren't you racist for thinking that most URMs in your medical school are there because of AA?

No. URMs, statistically speaking, enter with lower GPAs and MCAT scores than their respective non-minority counterparts. Therefore, a significant percentage of URMs in your medical school will only be there because of AA policies. After all...

DoctaJay said:
In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked as stated. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, "Relying on MCAT scores and GPA's alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school." This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.

In other words, over 50% (3.3% out of 6%) of the blacks you meet are total idiots who should not be there. It is probably better not to stare at them in the eyes, or you will probably get hobo STDs.

/no, I don't agree with that last paragraph
//but hey, it's as biased as your "FAQ", so either present both sides, or don't try to call your little piece of art "research"

DoctaJay · Oct 10, 2007

I'm sorry that you feel this way. But believe it or not, if you stay around SDN Pre-Allo forums long enough, you'll meet enough of my anti-AA "straw men". Every FAQ that was written was written based on encounters I had in these forums.

Overall though, let's try to get back on track in terms of answering the OP's question.

MundaneMD · Oct 10, 2007

Kthanksbye said:
Many very successful black Americans do not agree with you. Clarence Thomas comes to mind.

Whoa, wait a minute. Clarence Thomas is...black? 😱

Ever seen the "Black White Supremist" skit by Dave Chappelle? :laugh:

OP: Seriously though, just get over it. Yes, it's harder. There, I said it. But you can't do anything about it. 😴

LicensedPremed · Oct 10, 2007

NonTradMed · Oct 13, 2007

I think race is less of a hindrance into medical school these days than economic factors, so I would agree that allowing more socioeconomically challenged individuals into med school, even with lower stats, would benefit the school and society. After all, those that come from poverty are probably more likely to go back to serve the undeserved and the fact that they had to face extra hurdles means that they are ambitious and hard working (but they should also be at least borderline qualified for med school).

The problem with the current AA policy is that it doesn't care about economic factors, it cares only about race, which, in of itself, is not a hindrance to med school. A middle class black kid has as much chance of getting into med school as a middle class non-black kid. But a lower class child, regardless of race, has a more difficult time----money, not race, is the culprit. However, when people talk about AA, they mix the two things up.

If we target poor students for AA, it would still benefit URMs, but target those that actually need the extra 'hand up'. Right now, the black kids in my med school that benefit from AA policies tend to be from middle/upper middle class households. In my view, med school---and society---would have benefited a great deal more from having a kid from the inner city who worked their way into med school rather than an Ivy-educated child of a investment banker---regardless of race.

BigRedPremed · Oct 13, 2007

NonTradMed said:
I think race is less of a hindrance into medical school these days than economic factors, so I would agree that allowing more socioeconomically challenged individuals into med school, even with lower stats, would benefit the school and society. After all, those that come from poverty are probably more likely to go back to serve the undeserved and the fact that they had to face extra hurdles means that they are ambitious and hard working (but they should also be at least borderline qualified for med school).

The problem with the current AA policy is that it doesn't care about economic factors, it cares only about race, which, in of itself, is not a hindrance to med school. A middle class black kid has as much chance of getting into med school as a middle class non-black kid. But a lower class child, regardless of race, has a more difficult time----money, not race, is the culprit. However, when people talk about AA, they mix the two things up.

If we target poor students for AA, it would still benefit URMs, but target those that actually need the extra 'hand up'. Right now, the black kids in my med school that benefit from AA policies tend to be from middle/upper middle class households. In my view, med school---and society---would have benefited a great deal more from having a kid from the inner city who worked their way into med school rather than an Ivy-educated child of a investment banker---regardless of race.

Except AA isn't to reward people for overcoming adversity. Pro-AAers like to paint the picture of the black student who had to overcome inner city schools and drug dealers on his way to med school as a justification for AA. In reality, that's really just an argument for socioeconomic AA.

Med schools practice AA simply because they want racial diversity for their med school classes and to increase the proportion of minority doctors. When they list their class demographics on their website, they don't want to list 59% white, 40% Asian, 1% URM. When they take pictures of their students for those brochures, they want to include a black or hispanic student or two in them. In this respect, the only thing that matters is your ethnicity and your skin color. A black student who've had all of the advantages in the world will always be more valuable to med schools than a poor Asian or White student who've had to overcome tremendous adversity. It boils down to this: socioeconomic diversity isn't as important to med schools as racial diversity.

drizzt3117 · Oct 13, 2007

BigRedPremed said:
Med schools practice AA simply because they want racial diversity for their med school classes and to increase the proportion of minority doctors. In this respect, the only thing that matters is your ethnicity and your skin color. A black student who've had all of the advantages in the world will always be more valuable to med schools than a poor Asian or White student who've had to overcome tremendous adversity.

http://www2.jsonline.com/news/state/sep00/uw21092000.asp

"Top school officials learned weeks ago that Admissions Director Robert Seltzer authorized a photo in which the head of a black student, Diallo Shabazz, had been electronically taken from another photo and inserted into a picture with white fans who were celebrating at a 1993 Badgers game. Seltzer made the move, he said, in an effort to reflect the diversity of UW-Madison's campus."

BigRedPremed · Oct 13, 2007

drizzt3117 said:
Agreed. If you don't think universities care about this sort of thing, check out the link. I was living in Madison at the time this stuff went down, it was sort of a scandal.

http://www2.jsonline.com/news/state/sep00/uw21092000.asp

"Top school officials learned weeks ago that Admissions Director Robert Seltzer authorized a photo in which the head of a black student, Diallo Shabazz, had been electronically taken from another photo and inserted into a picture with white fans who were celebrating at a 1993 Badgers game. Seltzer made the move, he said, in an effort to reflect the diversity of UW-Madison's campus."

Ironically, I was typing an addendum to my post about putting minorities in pictures while you were posting this. :laugh:

harder for Asians to get into med school?

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