harder for Asians to get into med school?

[BigMDT]

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Members do not see this ad.

harder for asians to get in? i think this calls for a full orchestra.

(just think of Barber's Adagio)

 

[Kthanksbye]

Except AA isn't to reward people for overcoming adversity. Pro-AAers like to paint the picture of the black student who had to overcome inner city schools and drug dealers on his way to med school as a justification for AA. In reality, that's really just an argument for socioeconomic AA.

Med schools practice AA simply because they want racial diversity for their med school classes and to increase the proportion of minority doctors. In this respect, the only thing that matters is your ethnicity and your skin color. A black student who've had all of the advantages in the world will always be more valuable to med schools than a poor Asian or White student who've had to overcome tremendous adversity.

Martin Luther King Jr.:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

AA will never solve racism. AA is racism. You can't fix racism with more racism, there will only be a backlash. You can always divide people up into artificial categories and "prove" that they are being discriminated against. And skin color is one of the most artificial of categories. If you took all the applicants with blue eyes, or all the applicants with fused earlobes etc. and calculated their GPAs and MCAT scores, you would get similar results as you would by taking all the applicants with dark skin or Asian ancestry. Then you could write papers proving that they are being discriminated against. It's time to grow up. You can't hold people to two different standards for the same position whether it be a job or med school admission and not create animosity. The bar must be the same for everyone. How would it look if the Olympic high jump divided people into two different classes and one group had to jump over the high bar, while the other group jumped over a lower bar, but could still get the gold?

AA is a strange and artificial system that ends up hurting the people it most tries to help. Of course racism exists, but in todays world it will not hold anyone back from doing what they want to do. There are more important things for a person to focus on than the ignorant racism of those people who have no impact on your life. People make snap judgments about others all the time. This is called prejudice. It affects everyone, regardless of race. Get over it. It's only a problem if you make it a problem. This is my opinion. Now you can post why I'm stupid and wrong...

 

[BigRedPremed]

Martin Luther King Jr.:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

AA will never solve racism. AA is racism. You can't fix racism with more racism, there will only be a backlash. You can always divide people up into artificial categories and "prove" that they are being discriminated against. And skin color is one of the most artificial of categories. If you took all the applicants with blue eyes, or all the applicants with fused earlobes etc. and calculated their GPAs and MCAT scores, you would get similar results as you would by taking all the applicants with dark skin or Asian ancestry. Then you could write papers proving that they are being discriminated against. It's time to grow up. You can't hold people to two different standards for the same position whether it be a job or med school admission and not create animosity. The bar must be the same for everyone. How would it look if the Olympic high jump divided people into two different classes and one group had to jump over the high bar, while the other group jumped over a lower bar, but could still get the gold?

AA is a strange and artificial system that ends up hurting the people it most tries to help. Of course racism exists, but in todays world it will not hold anyone back from doing what they want to do. There are more important things for a person to focus on than the ignorant racism of those people who have no impact on your life. People make snap judgments about others all the time. This is called prejudice. It affects everyone, regardless of race. Get over it. It's only a problem if you make it a problem. This is my opinion. Now you can post why I'm stupid and wrong...

I agree with you. However, this post is about whether it's harder for Asians to get int not whether it SHOULD be harder for Asians to get in. I was only reporting the med schools' rationalization for choosing the way they do.

 

[flaahless]

Except AA isn't to reward people for overcoming adversity. Pro-AAers like to paint the picture of the black student who had to overcome inner city schools and drug dealers on his way to med school as a justification for AA. In reality, that's really just an argument for socioeconomic AA.

Med schools practice AA simply because they want racial diversity for their med school classes and to increase the proportion of minority doctors. When they list their class demographics on their website, they don't want to list 59% white, 40% Asian, 1% URM. When they take pictures of their students for those brochures, they want to include a black or hispanic student or two in them. In this respect, the only thing that matters is your ethnicity and your skin color. A black student who've had all of the advantages in the world will always be more valuable to med schools than a poor Asian or White student who've had to overcome tremendous adversity. It boils down to this: socioeconomic diversity isn't as important to med schools as racial diversity.

Man, that quote right there is suspect racist. Are you serious? That's why there is a personal statement. Write a strong personal statement and I guarantee you plenty of med schools will give you plenty of looks. But no, the Premeds here are so stuck on MCAT+GPA=acceptance that they neglect the other half the application and fail to see the big picture. The application process has two parts, numbers and non-numbers, neither one of us knows the "non-numbers" part of someone's application, so quit basing your judgment solely on stats. Just because the stats may be higher, doesn't necessarily equate to increased difficulty.

Anyways, as far as AA goes, I think its funny that whenever someone speaks about AA they always mention african americans and hispanic americans, while conveniently leaving out the group that AA has helped the most. White women.

 

[CycleCA]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who has the guys to say that AA is racist.

 

[drizzt3117]

Man, that quote right there is suspect racist. Are you serious? That's why there is a personal statement. Write a strong personal statement and I guarantee you plenty of med schools will give you plenty of looks. But no, the Premeds here are so stuck on MCAT+GPA=acceptance that they neglect the other half the application and fail to see the big picture. The application process has two parts, numbers and non-numbers, neither one of us knows the "non-numbers" part of someone's application, so quit basing your judgment solely on stats. Just because the stats may be higher, doesn't necessarily equate to increased difficulty.

Look, this argument is stupid because it's irrelevant. URMs have a higher chance of acceptance all else being equal and that's not going to change until they are no longer URMs. There's no point derailing another thread to argue about it. People might disagree about whether it is right or wrong but no one can argue that it doesn't have an effect on admissions. This is no way taking away from the accomplishments of minority applicants, many of which are certainly well qualified and will make excellent doctors, but denying that they get an advantage from their ethnicity is simply being shortsighted. That said, no matter what you think about it, it's the policy.

Anyways, as far as AA goes, I think its funny that whenever someone speaks about AA they always mention african americans and hispanic americans, while conveniently leaving out the group that AA has helped the most. White women.

That's a good point, but being female is no longer a big advantage if it is at all because their representation is pretty close to 50/50 in both med schools and increasingly more so among practicing doctors, which is how it should be.

 

[NonTradMed]

Anyways, as far as AA goes, I think its funny that whenever someone speaks about AA they always mention african americans and hispanic americans, while conveniently leaving out the group that AA has helped the most. White women.

We are speaking of med school admissions and I do not see AA working for white women. However, as an Asian woman, I was told that my gender was probably a boon to me getting a hefty scholarship from my engineering school when I was an undergrad. I am unsure of how much my gender helped since I figured the ORM of me (being Asian) balanced out the URM (gender) portion of me. 😀

However, when debating AA in general, I have heard people complain that females also benefit from it.

But this thread is not about AA in general, it is specifically talking about AA in med school, and I have seen no proof that med schools, in this day and age, gives preference to females over males. I am open to the idea if someone can dig up data proving it.

 

[CycleCA]

We are speaking of med school admissions and I do not see AA working for white women. However, as an Asian woman, I was told that my gender was probably a boon to me getting a hefty scholarship from my engineering school when I was an undergrad. I am unsure of how much my gender helped since I figured the ORM of me (being Asian) balanced out the URM (gender) portion of me. 😀

However, when debating AA in general, I have heard people complain that females also benefit from it.

But this thread is not about AA in general, it is specifically talking about AA in med school, and I have seen no proof that med schools, in this day and age, gives preference to females over males. I am open to the idea if someone can dig up data proving it.

What about the overrepresentation of females in the university system in general? Should we make men their own URM category and give them preferential treatment?

 

[TheRealMD]

The alternative solution would be to fix the public school system. Guess which is cheaper but still saves face?

 

[maestro1625]

Whoa, wait a minute. Clarence Thomas is...black? 😱

Ever seen the "Black White Supremist" skit by Dave Chappelle?



OP: Seriously though, just get over it. Yes, it's harder. There, I said it. But you can't do anything about it. 😴

and of course Clarence Thomas's ascent in his career has had NOTHING to do with his race... 🙄

 

[riceman04]

How would it look if the Olympic high jump divided people into two different classes and one group had to jump over the high bar, while the other group jumped over a lower bar, but could still get the gold?

To: Kthanksbye
Inappropriate use of an analogy...that's why you are stupid and wrong...LOL...I'm just kidding...I could not resist poking fun for basically enticing someone to say that you are stupid or wrong

once again just kidding...i kid i kid i kid i kid😉😀

 

[Drogba]

Doctah Jay,

Personally, I think you owned this thread. Thank you for your collection of informative commentary on AA.

 

[Kthanksbye]

To: Kthanksbye
Inappropriate use of an analogy...that's why you are stupid and wrong...LOL...I'm just kidding...I could not resist poking fun for basically enticing someone to say that you are stupid or wrong

once again just kidding...i kid i kid i kid i kid😉😀

I just realize that this is a very explosive issue, and was anticipating a lot of negative comments. Currently, it is very easy to label someone a racist, especially if they talk about AA or other such issues. And you have to be very careful voicing such opinions because you will be crucified in the court of public opinion. The analogy may be oversimplified, I admit, but still, there's no avoiding that AA creates two bars. One group jumps over the high bar, and the other jumps over the low bar. It's not so inappropriate. I think there are better ways of helping people that aren't as polarizing as AA inevitably ends up being.

 

[Revenant]

The alternative solution would be to fix the public school system. Guess which is cheaper but still saves face?

👍


Remember everybody, politically-reached solutions to complex issues are always sub-par quick fixes, hence AA.

 

[flaahless]

We are speaking of med school admissions and I do not see AA working for white women. However, as an Asian woman, I was told that my gender was probably a boon to me getting a hefty scholarship from my engineering school when I was an undergrad. I am unsure of how much my gender helped since I figured the ORM of me (being Asian) balanced out the URM (gender) portion of me. 😀

However, when debating AA in general, I have heard people complain that females also benefit from it.

But this thread is not about AA in general, it is specifically talking about AA in med school, and I have seen no proof that med schools, in this day and age, gives preference to females over males. I am open to the idea if someone can dig up data proving it.

Dawg, you don't see AA working for white women because it already worked for them. How many white female physicians were there pre-1970? Compare that figure to now. Point proven.

I think what people on this site disagree with is the way that affirmative action is being implemented at some institutions; which is accepting indviduals with lower stats. But that's not what affirmative action is. Affirmative action is merely a program to level the playing field for disadvantaged groups. If that means opening the doors for white women and allowing them the opportunity to become physicians, so be it. If it means focusing on other aspects of a students application besides their "stats" so be it.

And to try and separate socioeconomics from "race" is impossible, because much of the socioeconomic disparities today are the direct result of racism. That's an entirely new can of worms that I don't feel like getting into.

People on this site act like HMS is admitting people fresh from Rikers Island with 12 MCATs and 1.7 gpas. Just because an institution generally accepts from a range, say 32 and 3.7,doesn't mean they HAVE to. Get over yourselves. It's so ridiculous to me that people place so much value on the MCAT and GPA as if those are absolute criteria. If you have a 35 and a 3.8, you are NOT entitled to go to med school. Stop believing that high stats are an absolute entitlement to medical school. Those are just numbers. There are many other aspects of an application that so many of you conveniently ignore. Life experiences, purpose, passion, service etc. Thankfully many adcoms look beyond the superficiality that plagues this forum.

I'm tired of the "woe is me" I must get a 38 MCAT to be competitive. No you don't, a 30 MCAT is competitive at nearly every school if the rest of your application is on point. Quit being such number ****** and whining about the 2 spots that are going to well qualified people of color who have the potential to make a major impact in urban communities.

 

[NonTradMed]

What about the overrepresentation of females in the university system in general? Should we make men their own URM category and give them preferential treatment?

Actually, the NYTimes recently did an article which suggests some schools already do or are considering the possibility:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=2

Dawg, you don't see AA working for white women because it already worked for them. How many white female physicians were there pre-1970? Compare that figure to now. Point proven.

I think what people on this site disagree with is the way that affirmative action is being implemented at some institutions; which is accepting indviduals with lower stats. But that's not what affirmative action is. Affirmative action is merely a program to level the playing field for disadvantaged groups. If that means opening the doors for white women and allowing them the opportunity to become physicians, so be it. If it means focusing on other aspects of a students application besides their "stats" so be it.

And to try and separate socioeconomics from "race" is impossible, because much of the socioeconomic disparities today are the direct result of racism. That's an entirely new can of worms that I don't feel like getting into.

People on this site act like HMS is admitting people fresh from Rikers Island with 12 MCATs and 1.7 gpas. Just because an institution generally accepts from a range, say 32 and 3.7,doesn't mean they HAVE to. Get over yourselves. It's so ridiculous to me that people place so much value on the MCAT and GPA as if those are absolute criteria. If you have a 35 and a 3.8, you are NOT entitled to go to med school. Stop believing that high stats are an absolute entitlement to medical school. Those are just numbers. There are many other aspects of an application that so many of you conveniently ignore. Life experiences, purpose, passion, service etc. Thankfully many adcoms look beyond the superficiality that plagues this forum.

I'm tired of the "woe is me" I must get a 38 MCAT to be competitive. No you don't, a 30 MCAT is competitive at nearly every school if the rest of your application is on point. Quit being such number ****** and whining about the 2 spots that are going to well qualified people of color who have the potential to make a major impact in urban communities.

The problem is that in TODAY's society, a poor white kid is in more need of helping hand than a rich black kid. You say that racism cannot be separated from class, and I disagree. You are suggesting that since blacks, as a class, were disadvantaged in the past, that we redress such injustice by helping those that, frankly, no longer need that help (i.e rich black kids).

I agree that socioeconomic factors need to be taken into consideration, and I think URMs will still benefit most from it, but I disagree that we help poor people solely on race---which AA is mainly focused on.

Instead, med schools should focus on helping those that came from disadvantaged communities---and in this day and age, it isn't all blacks and Hispanics. There are a lot of Asian students, from Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, who are in just as much need of help as African-American and Hispanic students. But because they are put into the arbitrary catagory of 'Asians', they are considered "overrpresented". There are many poor Asian communities which are underserved but they are not the same Asian groups that go into med schools in high numbers. The problem with defining people by race is that it makes the erroneous assumption that those within the race experiences the same disadvantaged or advantaged upbringing. But the biggest beneficiary of AA in professional schools, from what I've seen, are not inner city black/Hispanic kids, but children of highly educated immigrants from Africa and South America.

My med school is very big on recruiting Hispanics but I've noticed they don't bother with recruiting from disadvantaged populations. We still only have a handful of Hispanics (we're a pretty white state) but the three I know all came from high achieving, highly educated immigrant families. Hardly the group that AA was designated to help. But our school has funding tied to how many Hispanics we recruit (our financial aid director told us this), so the school has no incentive to search out economically disadvantaged youth. Instead, they just try to recruit anyone who is Hispanic and get their funding.

Does the fact that these students are Hispanic make them feel obligated to work in underserved areas? No more than the average white or Asian kid who also came from high achieving, highly educated households. Just what has AA does for the school? Well, it made sure our school look good on paper. 🙄

 

[SigurRos]

AA= alcoholics anonymous?

Med schools should always give AA kids a chnace!

 

[NdFrSpd]

shouldn't well qualified applicants be admitted? I think its unfair that someone might get accepted just beacuse they are born a certain race, and one might find it more difficult because they are born another! So what if asians are over represented? If they showed through grades and actions that they are qualified...then they should be accpeted.....i wish URM didn't exist...meeh w/e nobody is gonna read this and change anyways...why am i ranting..

 

[CycleCA]

Actually, the NYTimes recently did an article which suggests some schools already do or are considering the possibility:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=2

As a male, would agreeing with easier entrance for males and easier entrance for URM's make me a hypocrite if I don't believe in AA?

 

[flaahless]

shouldn't well qualified applicants be admitted? I think its unfair that someone might get accepted just beacuse they are born a certain race, and one might find it more difficult because they are born another! So what if asians are over represented? If they showed through grades and actions that they are qualified...then they should be accpeted.....i wish URM didn't exist...meeh w/e nobody is gonna read this and change anyways...why am i ranting..

You are absolutely correct. Well qualified applicants should and ARE being admitted. AA is not admitting prisoners, it admits well qualified applicants.

You share the same naiive mindset that most premeds on this site share, that MCAT and GPA are the only two qualifications for med school. But they are not. You need to expand the definition of "qualifications" to encompass something much more than mere numbers.

Lastly, to assume that X group has it more difficult than Y group merely because the "stats" are higher is ignorant. Neither of us know of the personal difficulties and/or life experiences that the individuals of the different groups experienced. Is growing up in a household where both parents are physicians, going to a private magnet high school, Ivy league college and then having to score a 34 on the MCAT more difficult than the student from the single family household, who was shuttled through the public school system, graduated from a state school and scored a 31?

 

[drizzt3117]

Lastly, to assume that X group has it more difficult than Y group merely because the "stats" are higher is ignorant. Neither of us know of the personal difficulties and/or life experiences that the individuals of the different groups experienced. Is growing up in a household where both parents are physicians, going to a private magnet high school, Ivy league college and then having to score a 34 on the MCAT more difficult than the student from the single family household, who was shuttled through the public school system, graduated from a state school and scored a 31?

I don't think anyone implies that socioeconomic or disadvantaged status shouldn't be taken into account when considering medical school admissions. That said, there are many URM candidates that are of similar backgrounds to the non-URM candidates that you are describing above that still get the same benefit.

Would a Vietnamese applicant that grew up in a refugee camp or a Cuban applicant that made it to the US on a raft have a more difficult path towards medicine than a upper/middle class African American candidate?

I think disadvantaged status should be taken into account when it comes to admissions and generally feel that there are many URMs that may have had a more difficult path. That said, it isn't applicable in every case.

 

[flaahless]

I don't think anyone implies that socioeconomic or disadvantaged status shouldn't be taken into account when considering medical school admissions. That said, there are many URM candidates that are of similar backgrounds to the non-URM candidates that you are describing above that still get the same benefit.

Would a Vietnamese applicant that grew up in a refugee camp or a Cuban applicant that made it to the US on a raft have a more difficult path towards medicine than a upper/middle class African American candidate?

I think disadvantaged status should be taken into account when it comes to admissions and generally feel that there are many URMs that may have had a more difficult path. That said, it isn't applicable in every case.

I agree, that's why there is a whole section to talk about disadvantaged status and a personal statement and many secondary essays to expound on that.

Also, to say that socioeconomic status and race are unrelated is ignorant to the overt racist practices of this country. Now, is everyone with a darker skin tone affected by this oppression equally? Of course not. But AA is the best system we have to attempt to correct this injustice. The same can be applied to individuals that rely on MCAT and GPA to predict one's success as a physician. Is everyone with a 35 and a 3.8 going to become a great doctor, of course not, but its the best system we have.

 

[AlexMorph]

Flaahless, I admire your persistence in consistently debating with the anti-AA crowd. Unfortunately, you are far outnumbered here and very few others come to your defense.

 

[flaahless]

Flaahless, I admire your persistence in consistently debating with the anti-AA crowd. Unfortunately, you are far outnumbered here and very few others come to your defense.

Haha, thats because so many people here selfishly look at the issue and how it affects them, rather than the potential to bridge some major gaps in society.

I disagree with the assertion to abolish a system because you have a few individuals that unfairly benefit. What about the countless individuals that AA does benefit, both as physicians and in the community? To me, the positives outweight the negatives. 👍

 

[FSAP]

Flaahless, I admire your persistence in consistently debating with the anti-AA crowd. Unfortunately, you are far outnumbered here and very few others come to your defense.

The fact that he is outnumbered makes his case stronger. What baffles my mind is that people are pissed off about like 6%. This number is so marginal, chances are you are not affected by minorities getting in. I realize people are angry that less qualified people have an easier time getting into med school than them, but it's just petty especially for individuals who consider themselves at the top of the intellectual pyramid.

 

[etf]

Write a strong personal statement and I guarantee you plenty of med schools will give you plenty of looks. But no, the Premeds here are so stuck on MCAT+GPA=acceptance that they neglect the other half the application and fail to see the big picture.

i have what others have told me is an excellent personal statement. not a single human being at UCSF or UCLA will get the privilege of reading it, because my application will invariably be screened out by an algorithm that only takes into account my mcat+gpa.

 

[flaahless]

i have what others have told me is an excellent personal statement. not a single human being at UCSF or UCLA will get the privilege of reading it, because my application will invariably be screened out by an algorithm that only takes into account my mcat+gpa.

That's a pessimistic, negative and ignorant attitude. My stats are mediocre, but I wrote an awesome PS and have strong LORs and ECs and I got secondaries. It just took some time. And it wasn't because of my skin tone, since CA schools do NOT use AA in their admissions process, thanks to Ward Connerly.

 

[jochi1543]

Canada doesn't have these types of policies for medical school entry. Here, the main problem is the shortage of Aboriginal physicians, but it is dealt with by considering race as just one factor. Aboriginal applicants can choose to apply in a special pool with less stringent admission requirements, but they will not get in just because they are Aboriginal - in fact, these pools can be MORE competitive (as a function of the ratio of applicants to seats, although not necessarily the stats of these applicants). The competitiveness arises from the fact that these applicants must actively demonstrate their commitment to their community by producing 3-5 reference letters from elders in their band, and the letters must attest to the applicant's intention of returning to their community upon finishing their MD. The applicants in this pool are also interviewed by Aboriginal physicians/community leaders in addition to the regular interviews, and are thoroughly grilled on Aboriginal health issues. Applicants who fail to demonstrate a knowledge of these issues and the intention of returning to work for the band are rejected as the result. The process is pretty cut-throat, even though the medical schools don't have a quota on Aboriginal seats. The numbers are generally about 10 applicants and 2 acceptances for the Aboriginal pools at most schools.

By instituting this rigorous selection process, the schools ensure that Aboriginal students who may not have had the same educational opportunities as non-Aboriginals (as late as in the 90s, at some residential schools Native children were forced to sleep in outhouses) and may not have achieved the same high grades because of their circumstances, are still able to become physicians. But their race and upbringing alone don't mean squat if they are not able to demonstrate a knowledge of their community's health issues and prove their commitment to giving back. I wonder how the admissions process would change should US medical schools set up a similiar system. For example, Meharry claims to train physicians who will work with African-Americans and other underserved populations, but then their graduates match into plastic surgery...where does "helping the underserved" fall into the silicon and lipo framework?

 

[flaahless]

Probablility of Admissions at University of Michigan Medical School in 2005

Probability = A/(1+A)

A = exp((0.383606*TotMCAT) + (2.588075*SciGPA) + (3.062672 if Black) + (-0.74227 if Asian) + (1.703081 if Hispanic) + (0.830557 if Female) + (1.064289 if in state) + (-28.101))

This is from "Admission Preferences at the University of Michigan Medical School" published by the Center for Equal Opportunity in 2006.

link:
http://www.ceousa.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=235

Posting these BS probability stats as if it is applicable to all US med schools. Michigan was overtly using AA as part of their admissions policy so of course the probability is going to be higher for disadvantaged groups. What these numbers don't account for are other aspects of the application. Qualities such as passion, purpose and life experiences which may make an applicant more endeering beyond stats.

Everytime this topic comes up, everyone posts this same Linda Chavez BS. She has a vendetta against minorities and the majority of her work is heaviliy biased. Please, post something from a school other than Michigan.

 

[docontheroc]

But AA is the best system we have to attempt to correct this injustice.

AA is one of the best systems we have probably bothered to try...correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I have a sneaking suspicion that AA was a bone thrown to appease clamoring minorities and to avoid addressing the real socioeconomic issues that perpetuate a racism AND oppression rampant in our country that affects people of all colors and backgrounds

from its obvious rational flaws, and the many criticisms it has sustained above, it is clear that AA leaves much to be desired as the 'best' system for addressing inequalities of access, be it medical school, or whatever. ignore the underlying problems and it just becomes a crutch that minorities like myself continue to hold onto instead of figuring out how to walk alone

 

[flaahless]

Canada doesn't have these types of policies for medical school entry. Here, the main problem is the shortage of Aboriginal physicians, but it is dealt with by considering race as just one factor. Aboriginal applicants can choose to apply in a special pool with less stringent admission requirements, but they will not get in just because they are Aboriginal - in fact, these pools can be MORE competitive (as a function of the ratio of applicants to seats, although not necessarily the stats of these applicants). The competitiveness arises from the fact that these applicants must actively demonstrate their commitment to their community by producing 3-5 reference letters from elders in their band, and the letters must attest to the applicant's intention of returning to their community upon finishing their MD. The applicants in this pool are also interviewed by Aboriginal physicians/community leaders in addition to the regular interviews, and are thoroughly grilled on Aboriginal health issues. Applicants who fail to demonstrate a knowledge of these issues and the intention of returning to work for the band are rejected as the result. The process is pretty cut-throat, even though the medical schools don't have a quota on Aboriginal seats. The numbers are generally about 10 applicants and 2 acceptances for the Aboriginal pools at most schools.

By instituting this rigorous selection process, the schools ensure that Aboriginal students who may not have had the same educational opportunities as non-Aboriginals (as late as in the 90s, at some residential schools Native children were forced to sleep in outhouses) and may not have achieved the same high grades because of their circumstances, are still able to become physicians. But their race and upbringing alone don't mean squat if they are not able to demonstrate a knowledge of their community's health issues and prove their commitment to giving back. I wonder how the admissions process would change should US medical schools set up a similiar system. For example, Meharry claims to train physicians who will work with African-Americans and other underserved populations, but then their graduates match into plastic surgery...where does "helping the underserved" fall into the silicon and lipo framework?

Nice post. I disagree that minority physicians must be IM, or family practice and serve in underserved communities. They should be able to pursue whatever field interests them. They can serve the community other ways as mentors, volunteers, community leaders, activists, counselors, role models etc. and show urban youth that becoming a physician is possible, tangible and feasible.

 

[se2131]

Disclaimer: I'm Indian, so clearly these policies don't help me.

Frankly, I have no beef w/ AA as it is in med schools, as long as it serves to help the patient populations that it's supposed to help. Using socioeconomic status as a replacement doesn't seem appropriate to me, because it's not about trying to help the applicant who's had rough circumstances get a leg up, and more about trying to satisfy the health care needs of the country by providing the best physicians for all sectors. If we need X number of physicians to serve a black community, and if black physicians tend to work in these areas, then if it comes down to taking the more affluent black student who's done better in school than the poorer black student who has had to work through college and has had his/her GPA suffer, I'd still take the one who's done well.

If the country needs black physicians, then we must admit black physicians to fill this need. Period. Even if this comes at the slight expense of other applicants.

That being said, I don't think that socieconomic status should be discounted as a factor, if there's evidence that people from disadvantaged backgrounds tend to serve in disadvantaged areas. It helps to serve another need.

I also think that AA should be extended to some extent to southeast Asian countries. After all, if the argument that black communities respond to black physicians holds true, then shouldn't this argument also extend to these communities (which have poor socieconomic statuses generally and hardships of their own).

Remember folks, nobody is entitled to be a doctor. The healthcare needs of the country need to be satisfied in one way or another, and so everyone's ego is going to have to take a backseat.

 

[drizzt3117]

I did my clinical research on outcomes for cervical and breast cancer survivors. A study I read said that minority cancer survivors had better outcomes when their attending was of the same race as the patient. I think URM applicants who show a dedication to serving underserved populations through their ECs and PS should get preference in admissions b/c it will improve outcomes, but I dont think URM applicants are obligated to serve the underserved. That said, if they dont, do they deserve preference?

 

[flaahless]

AA is one of the best systems we have probably bothered to try...correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I have a sneaking suspicion that AA was a bone thrown to appease clamoring minorities and to avoid addressing the real socioeconomic issues that perpetuate a racism AND oppression rampant in our country that affects people of all colors and backgrounds

from its obvious rational flaws, and the many criticisms it has sustained above, it is clear that AA leaves much to be desired as the 'best' system for addressing inequalities of access, be it medical school, or whatever. ignore the underlying problems and it just becomes a crutch that minorities like myself continue to hold onto instead of figuring out how to walk alone

Of course AA is not going to solve all of societies problems. But it is a way for institutions of higher education to do their part and help combat the problem.

 

[flaahless]

Disclaimer: I'm Indian, so clearly these policies don't help me.

Frankly, I have no beef w/ AA as it is in med schools, as long as it serves to help the patient populations that it's supposed to help. Using socioeconomic status as a replacement doesn't seem appropriate to me, because it's not about trying to help the applicant who's had rough circumstances get a leg up, and more about trying to satisfy the health care needs of the country by providing the best physicians for all sectors. If we need X number of physicians to serve a black community, and if black physicians tend to work in these areas, then if it comes down to taking the more affluent black student who's done better in school than the poorer black student who has had to work through college and has had his/her GPA suffer, I'd still take the one who's done well.

If the country needs black physicians, then we must admit black physicians to fill this need. Period. Even if this comes at the slight expense of other applicants.

That being said, I don't think that socieconomic status should be discounted as a factor, if there's evidence that people from disadvantaged backgrounds tend to serve in disadvantaged areas. It helps to serve another need.

I also think that AA should be extended to some extent to southeast Asian countries. After all, if the argument that black communities respond to black physicians holds true, then shouldn't this argument also extend to these communities (which have poor socieconomic statuses generally and hardships of their own).

Remember folks, nobody is entitled to be a doctor. The healthcare needs of the country need to be satisfied in one way or another, and so everyone's ego is going to have to take a backseat.

👍

 

[jochi1543]

If the country needs black physicians, then we need to admit black physicians. Period. Even if this comes at the slight expense of other applicants.

How do you know the country needs Black (insert any other race) physicians? Is it because Black communities tend to be underserved, and you believe that Black physicians would be serving them first and others last?

Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage medical students of ALL races to pursue some of their training in these communities? For example, I know here in Canada we've got a shortage of rural physicians, and many scholarships exist for those doing rural electives - your expenses are all covered for, and you might even net cash as the result. Unlike some of the financial aid schemes in the US, where all your tuition is paid for if you declare an interest in rural med, but you have to pay back 2x if you change your mind, this is non-committal, but it actually allows the student to explore rural medicine without sacrificing anything, and it can entice students who are not confident about rural med to seriously consider it as an option. Why can't medical schools in the US create a similar set-up for encouraging students of all races to explore working in underserved communities, Black communities being one of them? (and I'm sure some have, but it doesn't seem to be the norm) Even if the students end up deciding this is not for them, at least they'd be speaking from knowledge.

 

[flaahless]

How do you know the country needs Black (insert any other race) physicians? Is it because Black communities tend to be underserved, and you believe that Black physicians would be serving them first and others last?

Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage medical students of ALL races to pursue some of their training in these communities? For example, I know here in Canada we've got a shortage of rural physicians, and many scholarships exist for those doing rural electives - your expenses are all covered for, and you might even net cash as the result. Unlike some of the financial aid schemes in the US, where all your tuition is paid for if you declare an interest in rural med, but you have to pay back 2x if you change your mind, this is non-committal, but it actually allows the student to explore rural medicine without sacrificing anything, and it can entice students who are not confident about rural med to seriously consider it as an option. Why can't medical schools in the US create a similar set-up for encouraging students of all races to explore working in underserved communities, Black communities being one of them? (and I'm sure some have, but it doesn't seem to be the norm) Even if the students end up deciding this is not for them, at least they'd be speaking from knowledge.

Naah son. Luring people with money won't work. The motivation won't be there. Instead, individuals with the passion to serve in these communities must be sought after.

 

[jochi1543]

I did my clinical research on outcomes for cervical and breast cancer survivors. A study I read said that minority cancer survivors had better outcomes when their attending was of the same race as the patient.

Did the study provide a reason? Was it because
1) The physician was more inclined to help someone of their own race
2) The patient felt more comfortable with a physician of the same race and more willing to cooperate and open up about her environment and habits that could have influenced the success of the treatment
3) Or because the physician was more aware of the risk factors associated with the population that s/he personally came from, and as such, might have been able to come up with a somewhat tailored treatment plan?

Just curious.

 

[Tropicana100]

I'm jumping in an AA supporter. I agree with flaahless' comments here. The bottom line is AA works and it IS needed. The positives of increasing diversity of the medical student body is enormous. The most direct benefit is that many of these "ethnic" students will eventually serve their own communities. However there is an even more important outcome: students will become exposed to a much richer ethnic and cultural environment and will understand what it is like to interact with people who hold different views. This is important in training doctors who are able to serve an increasingly diverse US patient population.

Many of you have argued that minorities are given an unfair advantage. First, I admit there is an advantage. With AA, the chances of a minority student getting in is higher than a non-minority of equal qualifications. However, this is not "unfair." What happened with CA dropped AA? A huge drop in the number of African American students at some CA universities. This is a clear indication that the systemic racism is still present and will continue to prevent minorities from receiving equal opportunities in the absence of AA. Some of you have called AA itself a form "racism." You got the meaning all wrong. Racism means you're down-grading another race as inferior. AA is NOT doing that. AA holds diversity as a value, and is NOT discriminating against whites. Some people do choose to exploit the system by claiming URM status when they are only remotely that particular race. Yes, I admit the system has its flaws, but like flaahless said, the positives outweigh the negatives.

I know this is a sensitive topic, since getting into med school is hard and you don't need another barrier such as AA to keep you from getting in. Try to think of it this way. In a world without racism and economic/educational disparities, there will be qualified minorities taking your spots because of their stats anyway.

 

[jochi1543]

Naah son. Luring people with money won't work. The motivation won't be there. Instead, individuals with the passion to serve in these communities must be sought after.

How do you quantify that passion? Isn't this where we come back to what I mentioned earlier with the screening of Native applicants in Canada based on their interest in serving their community?

BTW, I didn't mention that if an Aboriginal applicant meets the general pool's stats requirement, s/he can apply there and then not worry about being judged on their interest in serving a Native community as one of the major criteria.

 

[se2131]

How do you know the country needs Black (insert any other race) physicians? Is it because Black communities tend to be underserved, and you believe that Black physicians would be serving them first and others last?

Sorry, I meant more along the lines of the fact that patients tend to respond better to physicians of their own race (I didn't make that even remotely clear in my post). The studies are floating around.

I think the Canadian system you described is great, but it still doesn't solve this problem unfortunately.

 

[jochi1543]

I used to live in the inner city. It's really tough to get out of there once you're in. And the majority of inner cities are black. That's why we NEED AA. This is from an Asian's point of view, no bias.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that particular sentence....are you saying that a physician whose roots are in the inner city will be "drawn back" to that community? Or are you just referring to the difficulties that applicants from these communities have dealt with?

 

[jochi1543]

I'm talking about the fact that a lot of blacks are in bad situations and WILL be stuck there if AA did not exist.

Oh ok, I wasn't sure where you were heading with that at first.

 

[flaahless]

How do you quantify that passion? Isn't this where we come back to what I mentioned earlier with the screening of Native applicants in Canada based on their interest in serving their community?

Word. But I use serve more loosely than merely practicing. I'm talking about being role models, activists etc.

 

[Tropicana100]

Asians need to stop complaining about AA and get higher GPA and MCAT scores. Or move to California and apply there.

Asians aren't complaining. There are pro-AA and anti-AA folks in every race.

 

[flaahless]

I'm jumping in an AA supporter. I agree with flaahless' comments here. The bottom line is AA works and it IS needed. The positives of increasing diversity of the medical student body is enormous. The most direct benefit is that many of these "ethnic" students will eventually serve their own communities. However there is an even more important outcome: students will become exposed to a much richer ethnic and cultural environment and will understand what it is like to interact with people who hold different views. This is important in training doctors who are able to serve an increasingly diverse US patient population.

Many of you have argued that minorities are given an unfair advantage. First, I admit there is an advantage. With AA, the chances of a minority student getting in is higher than a non-minority of equal qualifications. However, this is not "unfair." What happened with CA dropped AA? A huge drop in the number of African American students at some CA universities. This is a clear indication that the systemic racism is still present and will continue to prevent minorities from receiving equal opportunities in the absence of AA. Some of you have called AA itself a form "racism." You got the meaning all wrong. Racism means you're down-grading another race as inferior. AA is NOT doing that. AA holds diversity as a value, and is NOT discriminating against whites. Some people do choose to exploit the system by claiming URM status when they are only remotely that particular race. Yes, I admit the system has its flaws, but like flaahless said, the positives outweigh the negatives.

I know this is a sensitive topic, since getting into med school is hard and you don't need another barrier such as AA to keep you from getting in. Try to think of it this way. In a world without racism and economic/educational disparities, there will be qualified minorities taking your spots because of their stats anyway.

👍

 

[flaahless]

Asians aren't complaining. There are pro-AA and anti-AA folks in every race.

Word. 👍

 

[jochi1543]

Word. But I use serve more loosely than merely practicing. I'm talking about being role models, activists etc.

Makes sense.

 

[milliya]

but schools are looking for diversity right? if theres a URM that has good enough scores when that race doesnt do well on average why not choose them over an ORM? every doctor, dentist, specialist for the past 7 or 8 years has been white or asian.

 

[jochi1543]

but schools are looking for diversity right? if theres a URM that has good enough scores when that race doesnt do well on average why not choose them over an ORM? every doctor, dentist, specialist for the past 7 or 8 years has been white or asian.

If schools are looking for diversity, why aren't the historically black schools (both med and undergrad) actively recruiting non-Black applicants to "diversify" their student bodies?