Healthcare Bill -- YES or NO?

[fitz0809]

they are ... its called charity care. There is not choice, it's forced and the cost is spread amongst all the others who can pay. God you need to get a real job and look at some medical bills.

I was being sarcastic

I was agreeing with you.

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[FlowRate]

Exactly why capitalism isn't designed to handle health care. Because giving real care doesn't help the bottom line.

How does getting paid even less by the government help any? Or are you implying the use of [generally arbitrary, especially when forced by govt] care-based payment methods?

 

[ApoK]

well for starters...i'm a registered democrat. so thanks for that......

um...for starters....the bill will dictate what procedures physicians can and cannot perform on patients and what their pay will be.......specifically, the department of health and human services (the secretary or head of that department) will be determining that. if a doctor does a procedure that is not permitted according the D of HHS, then the doctor will be penalized and will not be reimbursed al, even if the procedure is by far superior to effectively treating the ailment/disease/whatever. thank g-d there is already a lawsuit lined up to sue obama, if this passes tomorrow

http://landmarklegal.org/uploads/Landmark Complaint (00013086-2).pdf

http://www.landmarklegal.org/DesktopDefault.aspx

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=128773

Wow, this already exists. Insurers do the exact same thing for procedures and their denial of coverage is based on medicare reimbursement/ICD9, which is determined by *gasp* the government. We already have socialized medicine! OMG!

 

[oaklandguy]

Have you?

Yeah. And I can only imagine the ER in hospitals when all the rooms are taken up by people and you can't admit anymore. It's going to be like an MCI 24/7 in every hospital in America.

People all over the world don't have insurance, why don't we cover them as well?

 

[Bernoull]

just because people are insured doesn't mean their insurance pays as well as other insurances. if you can only see 10 patients per day and your patients used to always pay you $100 a piece but now you see 5 patients at $100 and 5 patients at $50, you're doing the same work but making less.

How about uncompensated care from uninsured pts (hospital setting)? i mean if more people are insured, there should be much less uncompensated care and more revenue.

Granted I'm not sure who currently eats the bill for uncompensated (hospital, docs or both)..

Also why would reimbursements be lower, there's no public option or are you alluding to the medicaid expansion?

 

[jturkel]

You need to take a look in the mirror. The opinions of CEOs are not credible sources of information.

i suppose (sarcasm).....since none of them are doctors (sarcasm) and none of them have treated patients (sarcasm) and none of them have had uninsured in their facilities (sarcasm) and none of them have to balance their hospital's/medical center's budget to stay open to continue providing care (sarcasm).

 

[rxlea]

Sheriff Joe booted out 78 more illegal immigrants the other day. 78 less people to cover on this bill.

 

[fitz0809]

How does getting paid even less by the government help any? Or are you implying the use of [generally arbitrary, especially when forced by govt] care-based payment methods?

what???

 

[mechanictodr]

I was being sarcastic

I was agreeing with you.

Thank God, these threads make my head hurt.

 

[ApoK]

Yeah. And I can only imagine the ER in hospitals when all the rooms are taken up by people and you can't admit anymore. It's going to be like an MCI 24/7 in every hospital in America.

People all over the world don't have insurance, why don't we cover them as well?

Never going to happen. The majority of the patients in the ER ARE UNINSURED. That's what the ER currently is. It's where the uninsured go to get their care and that's why ER's are notoriously unprofitable.

 

[jturkel]

Wow, this already exists. Insurers do the exact same thing for procedures and their denial of coverage is based on medicare reimbursement/ICD9, which is determined by *gasp* the government. We already have socialized medicine! OMG!

not quite like we might get. please learn more about the health care system....as a health/human services and public admin minor, i know tons and tons about this. thx. i'm not going to argue with you. nor will my arguments (nor yours) convince me (nor you). so i have no intention to continue it.

 

[FlowRate]

what???

Umm.. sorry I'm not sure what was unclear about my post, but I'll try to explain it better, you said:

"Because giving real care doesn't help the bottom line."

and unless this was more sarcasm (sorry, didn't read the whole thread), then you are implying either:

1. Real care will be provided by non-capitalist systems.
2. Real care can be helped by subsidized systems.
3. Real care is provided under quality-based payment methods.
(1 and 2 are rather similar)

 

[armybound]

How about uncompensated care from uninsured pts (hospital setting)? i mean if more people are insured, there should be much less uncompensated care and more revenue.

Granted I'm not sure who currently eats the bill for uncompensated (hospital, docs or both)..

Also why would reimbursements be lower, there's no public option or are you alluding to the medicaid expansion?

there's definitely the issue of uncompensated care. I was merely giving an example of how one can be seeing insured patients and make less money than they used to. You're already hearing about doctors thinking of not accepting Medicare because of its low reimbursement. Imagine the irony of giving 32 million people Medicare but no physician accepting Medicare due to its poor reimbursement.

I am referring to the expansion of Medicare and Medicaid. Of course they also lowered reimbursements for Medicare, which will lower not only Medicare reimbursements but should lower reimbursements from all insurance companies. They typically try to pay out a little bit more than Medicare, and if Medicare goes down then they will too.

 

[jturkel]

Sheriff Joe booted out 78 more illegal immigrants the other day. 78 less people to cover on this bill.

thank god. he is the man. arizona hospitals are getting KILLED out here (i live in AZ) by illegals constantly getting free medical coverage. more and more are gonna start closing.

 

[ApoK]

i suppose (sarcasm).....since none of them are doctors (sarcasm) and none of them have treated patients (sarcasm) and none of them have had uninsured in their facilities (sarcasm) and none of them have to balance their hospital's/medical center's budget to stay open to continue providing care (sarcasm).

No point in arguing with you, but I'll reply. If I were a CEO, my objective would be to maintain the profitability of my institution. Period. An objective analysis is far more important... CBO, Rand, etc. If you do become a doctor, you should get used to thinking like this since you will probably have to practice something called "evidence-based medicine." You generally have to have evidence to support a claim. CEO opinions are merely claims.

 

[oaklandguy]

Never going to happen. The majority of the patients in the ER ARE UNINSURED. That's what the ER currently is. It's where the uninsured go to get their care and that's why ER's are notoriously unprofitable.

The ER I volunteer at made $11k a day on average last month. If you don't think the ER will get worse and that doctor's offices will get worse than you are living in a fantasy.

 

[fitz0809]

People all over the world don't have insurance, why don't we cover them as well?

I sincerely wish we could...

It's sad that people die from dysentery/ TB/ AIDs all because they and countries are too poor to pay for the care (which is already developed).

I was lucky enough to not have been born in one of those countries...

It makes me sad that some people don't give a crap ad think that they don't deserve it.

 

[minicow]

I agree with you. Politics is broken... but there are people that can't afford the 25 years it would take to get it right.

Obviously a free market can't handle everything (at least not humanely).

probably why more people would rather vote everyone out than keep them in congress. and yeah the free market can be brutal when insuring everyone who is guaranteed to fall ill can collapse a system(you know, given that premiums stay competetive blah blah economics blah blah gag)

but hell them trying to pass this on the "merits" that it will HUGELY reduce the deficit and cover, i mean , mandate 32 million more to be covered is hilarious. and i doubt very many (if any) representatives have read this godzilla of a bill.

i believe in reform, i do. anyone who doesnt is living in la-la-land or is profiting off the way things are now.

just, idk, sucks. im not too sure people will be much happier later on down the line about this. how often does the government make things better for a system instead of a select few? -shrug- maybe im just crazy.

 

[J ROD]

no........

 

[fitz0809]

The ER I volunteer at made $11k a day on average last month. If you don't think the ER will get worse and that doctor's offices will get worse than you are living in a fantasy.

Yes... but people ight get a little better overall.

 

[mechanictodr]

thank god. he is the man. arizona hospitals are getting KILLED out here (i live in AZ) by illegals constantly getting free medical coverage. more and more are gonna start closing.

I say we charge the Mexican Govt. 10 barrels of oil for every illegal we catch. I think that would change things a bit. Especially if we sent them back as well. Let them take some responsibility.

 

[jturkel]

No point in arguing with you, but I'll reply. If I were a CEO, my objective would be to maintain the profitability of my institution. Period. An objective analysis is far more important... CBO, Rand, etc. If you do become a doctor, you should get used to thinking like this since you will probably have to practice something called "evidence-based medicine." You generally have to have evidence to support a claim. CEO opinions are merely claims.

ok, i'm glad we can agree to not agree/argue. and i've been accepted to MD school. i accept the CEO opinions...being they are evidence based on what they have seen as physicians and as administrators running hospitals (where i am leaning towards my career, getting an MD/MBA). they see both the medical and the financial ends...which is crucial.

 

[roseglass6370]

Yeah.

You're pre-med.

 

[ApoK]

thank god. he is the man. arizona hospitals are getting KILLED out here (i live in AZ) by illegals constantly getting free medical coverage. more and more are gonna start closing.

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

Is this you jturkel?

 

[oaklandguy]

I sincerely wish we could...

It's sad that people die from dysentery/ TB/ AIDs all because they and countries are too poor to pay for the care (which is already developed).

I was lucky enough to not have been born in one of those countries...

It makes me sad that some people don't give a crap ad think that they don't deserve it.

Yeah, they deserve health insurance and I deserve my ferrari.

In all reality there's a lot of sad things that go on in our country. Realistically it would be impossible for a perfect world. I don't think it's fair that dorks don't get laid enough. Should the dems start a government provided prostitution ring that gets dorks who cannot get laid a hooker once a month for sex?

 

[oaklandguy]

You're pre-med.

I have 11 family members who are doctors. I have 3 family members in med-school and have a few friends who are in med school as well.

 

[morning]

Yeah, they deserve health insurance and I deserve my ferrari.

In all reality there's a lot of sad things that go on in our country. Realistically it would be impossible for a perfect world. I don't think it's fair that dorks don't get laid enough. Should the dems start a government provided prostitution ring that gets dorks who cannot get laid a hooker once a month for sex?

There really is, like the fact our maternal mortality rate is tied with Belarus. 41st best maternal mortality rate whooo!

 

[fitz0809]

probably why more people would rather vote everyone out than keep them in congress. and yeah the free market can be brutal when insuring everyone who is guaranteed to fall ill can collapse a system(you know, given that premiums stay competetive blah blah economics blah blah gag)

but hell them trying to pass this on the "merits" that it will HUGELY reduce the deficit and cover, i mean , mandate 32 million more to be covered is hilarious. and i doubt very many (if any) representatives have read this godzilla of a bill.

i believe in reform, i do. anyone who doesnt is living in la-la-land or is profiting off the way things are now.

just, idk, sucks. im not too sure people will be much happier later on down the line about this. how often does the government make things better for a system instead of a select few? -shrug- maybe im just crazy.

Not crazy... but I wish it will at least get things started and then we can fix it little by little.

At some point we just need to say that people deserve health care more than people that profit from what it's like now...

Then we can reform malpractice law and little by little make things better.

 

[jturkel]

I say we charge the Mexican Govt. 10 barrels of oil for every illegal we catch. I think that would change things a bit. Especially if we sent them back as well. Let them take some responsibility.

its ridiciulous. illegals are such a problem where i went to college, in Tucson, AZ....which is the most common point for illegals to cross the border in the country.....tucson is just filled with them...as are the hospitals, and they are destroying health care down there.....its sad. i volunteered in the ER down in Tucson at the main medical center (UMC) and all i can remember are the tons and tons of patients who were illegals and without insurance that we treated. the ER wait at times was like 6-8 hours and way out the door (and it was a huge triage area).......its sad.

 

[fitz0809]

There really is, like the fact our maternal mortality rate is tied with Belarus. 41st best maternal mortality rate whooo!

I wanted to laugh but that would be very very sad for those affected by this... how can we suck so bad?

 

[ApoK]

The ER I volunteer at made $11k a day on average last month. If you don't think the ER will get worse and that doctor's offices will get worse than you are living in a fantasy.

In profit? Or revenue? If it's in Ann Arbor, that might make sense. If it's in say Detroit or Minneapolis... or any large city... it won't. Also, there is a HUGE difference between public and private ER's. Most level 1 trauma centers are public.

 

[UAAWolf]

lol @ pre-meds and med students who are fiscal liberals. Stupidest thing ever.

Almost every doc is a fiscal conservative....the alpha ones at least.

 

[jturkel]

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

Is this you jturkel?

lol cute. no its not me. i have a job. i'm just saying they are taxing our healthcare system and causing hospitals to close...and therefore rendering many INSURED people without medical care/hospitals nearby. nice try though

 

[oaklandguy]

In profit? Or revenue? If it's in Ann Arbor, that might make sense. If it's in say Detroit or Minneapolis... or any large city... it won't. Also, there is a HUGE difference between public and private ER's. Most level 1 trauma centers are public.

In profit. And it's in an extremely poor area of Michigan known as Pontiac Michigan (in metro Detroit). I know a small hospital ER called Crittenton (in a nicer neighborhood in metro detroit) medical center that makes even more.

 

[deleted307836]

Umm.. sorry I'm not sure what was unclear about my post, but I'll try to explain it better, you said:

"Because giving real care doesn't help the bottom line."

and unless this was more sarcasm (sorry, didn't read the whole thread), then you are implying either:

1. Real care will be provided by non-capitalist systems.
2. Real care can be helped by subsidized systems.
3. Real care is provided under quality-based payment methods.
(1 and 2 are rather similar)

FlowRate, what are you doing on this thread arguing in a completely organized, direct, and sensical manner? You obviously haven't learned that such methods are bound to induce only these reactions: and

 

[fitz0809]

its ridiciulous. illegals are such a problem where i went to college, in Tucson, AZ....which is the most common point for illegals to cross the border in the country.....tucson is just filled with them...as are the hospitals, and they are destroying health care down there.....its sad. i volunteered in the ER down in Tucson at the main medical center (UMC) and all i can remember are the tons and tons of patients who were illegals and without insurance that we treated. the ER wait at times was like 6-8 hours and way out the door (and it was a huge triage area).......its sad.

It's also the only way those people could get care...

They were born 50 miles too far south and are thus doomed to a life of misery. That sucks more for them than someone that has to wait 6 hours to get stitches.

 

[auburnO5]

lol @ pre-meds and med students who are fiscal liberals. Stupidest thing ever.

Almost every doc is a fiscal conservative....the alpha ones at least.

This ^^^

 

[oaklandguy]

The government is deciding that health insurance is a right. Now the government is deciding our rights and can take them away. Obama is officially playing God.

 

[jturkel]

lol @ pre-meds and med students who are fiscal liberals. Stupidest thing ever.

Almost every doc is a fiscal conservative....the alpha ones at least.

unnecessary lash at those....but i agree. the ones at the top of there game i know are fiscally conservative...even the jewish ones (75% of jews are liberal). a local internist (one of the best in the state) just decided to decline all insurance and now only accepts cash....and he is thriving....as the alpha internist in the state.

 

[ApoK]

lol cute. no its not me. i have a job. i'm just saying they are taxing our healthcare system and causing hospitals to close...and therefore rendering many INSURED people without medical care/hospitals nearby. nice try though

Really? Your anti-immigrant rhetoric seems pretty consistent with what SP is parodying. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion though.

It is interesting to watch pre-meds discuss finance and economics with no background in the area. I actually have a finance degree. It's amazing to hear all the absurd contentions of "fiscal conservatism." I don't know where some of the BS I hear comes from, especially when a pre-med talks about healthcare economics. At any rate, take care all. You can't argue the past eight years when the other party had power. How prosperous those policies were...

 

[fitz0809]

Umm.. sorry I'm not sure what was unclear about my post, but I'll try to explain it better, you said:

"Because giving real care doesn't help the bottom line."

and unless this was more sarcasm (sorry, didn't read the whole thread), then you are implying either:

1. Real care will be provided by non-capitalist systems.
2. Real care can be helped by subsidized systems.
3. Real care is provided under quality-based payment methods.
(1 and 2 are rather similar)

I would love to subsidize real healthcare for people who need it... I doubt it will ever happen... but it would be a much better world.

 

[jturkel]

It's also the only way those people could get care...

They were born 50 miles too far south and are thus doomed to a life of misery. That sucks more for them than someone that has to wait 6 hours to get stitches.

i'm sorry. i pay taxes and i don't want them going to them. call me mean....sure. i would prefer uninsured americans get the coverage instead....the whole medical care debate about it being a right or a privilege is for americans......not for illegals. but then that takes me off on a tangent as to why everyone is so ready to help other countries (like Haiti for the earthquake, which was indeed tragic) and people donate collectively millions and millions of dollars to these foreign countries, but we cant help those domestically....i'll save that for another tread.

 

[fitz0809]

The government is deciding that health insurance is a right. Now the government is deciding our rights and can take them away. Obama is officially playing God.

Obama isn't God?!?!?

In all seriousness why shouldn't health be a right?

don't you kind of need it to pursue happiness?

I don't think because we can't pay for it should be the end of the discussion

 

[ApoK]

The government is deciding that health insurance is a right. Now the government is deciding our rights and can take them away. Obama is officially playing God.

That's all I can say.

 

[mechanictodr]

It's also the only way those people could get care...

They were born 50 miles too far south and are thus doomed to a life of misery. That sucks more for them than someone that has to wait 6 hours to get stitches.

Is that our problem or maybe the Mexican govt's problem? I don't think we need to be the good stewards of the world. Besides, doesn't everyone hate us? Aren't we the "great white devils". I guess it's only that way when they aren't getting free handouts.

 

[morning]

The government is deciding that health insurance is a right. Now the government is deciding our rights and can take them away. Obama is officially playing God.

The drama of all this is just...so amusing. I can be fair here and say this is probably how progressives looked when they would moan about the Bush administration. I hated Bush, but I was never one of those people who thought he was going to declare some sort of national emergency to prevent the 2008 elections (and those people were numerous.) I guess it's my turn to just stare and laugh at the people who seem to think this is literally THE END OF AMERICA OMG HOLY CRAP SOCIALISM COMMUNISM FASCISM NAZISM BROWNSHIRTS!

Things this is: A rather pathetic excuse for an entitlement program, one of MANY that have been implemented in the past century. You use government services every. Single. Day.

Things this is not: Obama playing God. The end of America. The antichrist's fetid, putrescent hands working behind the scenes. A communist takeover.

 

[oaklandguy]

Obama isn't God?!?!?

In all seriousness why shouldn't health be a right?

don't you kind of need it to pursue happiness?

I don't think because we can't pay for it should be the end of the discussion

Health is subjective. I can take care of my health and pay for it if I want it. Some people don't care about health. I'm sure smokers are happier smoking cigarettes than not right?

Why shouldn't porsches be a right? I personally think everyone deserves a porsche. If you don't have a porsche you are truly unhappy.

 

[minicow]

The government is deciding that health insurance is a right. Now the government is deciding our rights and can take them away. Obama is officially playing God.

not sure if youre being sarcastic but i can not wait until the shortage of doctors and the rise in the number of claims being denied by the insurance companies causes a riot. a real one or a huge metaphoric one will do.

DARN YOU GODBAMA!!!

in all seriousness though does anyone know if they are at all going to start fixing the doctor shortage in the next four years?

 

[mechanictodr]

Obama isn't God?!?!?

In all seriousness why shouldn't health be a right?

don't you kind of need it to pursue happiness?

I don't think because we can't pay for it should be the end of the discussion

You said it, pursue. There is no guarantee there. You are allowed to pursue happieness, it's not going to be given at birth.

 

[ApoK]

The drama of all this is just...so amusing. I can be fair here and say this is probably how progressives looked when they would moan about the Bush administration. I hated Bush, but I was never one of those people who thought he was going to declare some sort of national emergency to prevent the 2008 elections (and those people were numerous.) I guess it's my turn to just stare and laugh at the people who seem to think this is literally THE END OF AMERICA OMG HOLY CRAP SOCIALISM COMMUNISM FASCISM NAZISM BROWNSHIRTS!

Things this is: A rather pathetic excuse for an entitlement program, one of MANY that have been implemented in the past century. You use government services every. Single. Day.

Things this is not: Obama playing God. The end of America. The antichrist's fetid, putrescent hands working behind the scenes. A communist takeover.

QFT.