MD Heard a rumor that Step 1 (and maybe Step 2 CK) may change from scores to P/F. Is that true?

[liquidcrawler]

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[olabrador23]

Even better reason to not go Carib

yes... that probably destroys the very tiny chance to becomr a doctor of many people who do not make it to med schools in the US...

That also will take away the lunch money from Carib med school business, which is huge. Money = power. I am wondering what they are going to do about that...

Uhhh.. what do you think Step 1 even tests you on? You’re so off base

congratulations to you for very close to the finish line! God bless!

 

[olabrador23]

I feel like loss of step 1 score could be detrimental to people in top 20 schools too, in that some other kid from another top 20 will get that integrated CT surg spot because they hustled more for research or had a stronger home program whose director was able to make calls in the field for them, whereas beforehand, student 1's step score may have set themselves above student 2

God bless us!

 

[Chibucks15]

Mods please put us out of our misery on this one

 

[Konkurro]

I think it would also result in home institutions filling residency spots for competitive specialties from their own medical school.

 

[7331poas]

Mods please put us out of our misery on this one

Or just close your eyes and walk away from the thread.

 

[Chibucks15]

Or just close your eyes and walk away from the thread.

If I keep getting tagged in things i look to see what it is. But thanks for the insight you really do have all the answers

 

[7331poas]

If I keep getting tagged in things i look to see what it is. But thanks for the insight you really do have all the answers

If you ignore the notification twice, then it stops sending messages about the thread to you. Even then, i cannot imagine someone who is so compelled by a notification that they need to enter a thread they ostensibly do not want to.

 

[confusedpremed12345]

Vanishingly small.

what about 2021

 

[gyngyn]

what about 2021

I'll let you know when I have more data.

 

[Seihai]

I'll let you know when I have more data.

I'm curious, what kind of data do you have access to that might help determine when this switchover does happen? Not that I'm a medical student, but if this change happens before I enter med school, then I'm curious to see how the landscape changes.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm curious, what kind of data do you have access to that might help determine when this switchover does happen? Not that I'm a medical student, but if this change happens before I enter med school, then I'm curious to see how the landscape changes.

The AAMC just opened a survey for public comment, when we get that back we'll know how much support there is.

 

[Slavic Scot]

The AAMC just opened a survey for public comment, when we get that back we'll know how much support there is.

Thanks! How do you feel about it/whats the general feel about it?

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks! How do you feel about it/whats the general feel about it?

The Student Affairs deans love it because they are tired of dealing with all the angst at the end of second year. This kicks the can down the road into 3rd year when the kids are out of the house. The PD's are not keen, as you might imagine.

If this passes it will cause a rash of those pre-interview video things that EM is doing...or the boot-camp requirement G Surg is demanding. Maybe the individual "love letters" that ENT tried will become popular.

 

[confusedpremed12345]

I'll let you know when I have more data.

thank you!

 

[Slavic Scot]

The Student Affairs deans love it because they are tired of dealing with all the angst at the end of second year. This kicks the can down the road into 3rd year when the kids are out of the house. The PD's are not keen, as you might imagine.

If this passes it will cause a rash of those pre-interview video things that EM is doing...or the boot-camp requirement G Surg is demanding. Maybe the individual "love letters" that ENT tried will become popular.

Thank you for your perspective.

From this, it seems like it causes emphasis on step 2 CK as well as creating a lot more arbitrary work and subjective grading.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

From this, it seems like it causes emphasis on step 2 CK as well as creating a lot more arbitrary work and subjective grading

It also causes a lot of problems for applicants. Step 2 isn't taken until right before you apply to residency, so if you have been preparing for X field your whole time in medical school i.e. field specific research, and then you bomb Step 2 you are completely SOL applying to residency. There isn't any time to prepare an app for a backup specialty, and in the current system applicants have ample time to do this.

 

[anon6134]

For the record, the videos for EM are a complete farce and no one took them seriously-applicants or faculty. Was not mentioned a single time and most applicants couldn’t even tell you what their score was including myself

 

[Lawpy]

Thank you for your perspective.

From this, it seems like it causes emphasis on step 2 CK as well as creating a lot more arbitrary work and subjective grading.

It also causes a lot of problems for applicants. Step 2 isn't taken until right before you apply to residency, so if you have been preparing for X field your whole time in medical school i.e. field specific research, and then you bomb Step 2 you are completely SOL applying to residency. There isn't any time to prepare an app for a backup specialty, and in the current system applicants have ample time to do this.

Also suppose Step 1 becomes pass/fail. Would anyone really bother studying for it seriously if they know they're going to pass?

 

[Slavic Scot]

Also suppose Step 1 becomes pass/fail. Would anyone really bother studying for it seriously if they know they're going to pass?

nope

 

[Lawpy]

hell no

So it's just going to be another expensive and useless test that contributes to the student debt. Might as well just get rid of Step 1 altogether tbh. At least save the students some money please.

 

[anon6134]

Also suppose Step 1 becomes pass/fail. Would anyone really bother studying for it seriously if they know they're going to pass?

No. Why waste two months of your life in solitary confinement when you can skate by with a superficial understanding of preclinical information and then pass with a 200 in March. Luckily this will give admin a chance to fill in two months with more superfluous BS such as ethics, professionalism, and inter professional seminars with the NP’s

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No. Why waste two months of your life in solitary confinement when you can skate by with a superficial understanding of preclinical information and then pass with a 200 in March. Luckily this will give admin a chance to fill in two months with more superfluous BS such as ethics, professionalism, and inter professional seminars with the NP’s

Unfortunately most of the pre-meds here won't understand how true this statement is. Medical schools are masters of filling time with useless, mandatory fluff.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

The Student Affairs deans love it because they are tired of dealing with all the angst at the end of second year. This kicks the can down the road into 3rd year when the kids are out of the house. The PD's are not keen, as you might imagine.

If this passes it will cause a rash of those pre-interview video things that EM is doing...or the boot-camp requirement G Surg is demanding. Maybe the individual "love letters" that ENT tried will become popular.

Since the PDs will hate this, it makes me wonder if things would revert back a bit to the preMatch days of “old boys club” phone calls and “who you know” for competitive residencies so PDs will know who to invite for interviews. If a PD is only going to interview about 100 people for 5-10 spots for a competitive residency, seems like they’re going to go around the system to find out more info.

 

[TheIllusionist]

No. Not true. Although, all elite schools and MCAT prep companies are just salivating at that idea. Elite schools love to promote grade "neutral" models, so their students can prestige ride all the way down yonder, over the hill and across the rainbow, while we're all stuck in our state school ditches. Right now, via board scores, people have a chance from lesser known places to have some objective metric to point to to compete against top school kids who have an advantage from prestige boost to begin with but also access to big names in fields and research projects more often, due to institutional resources.

Signed,
A poor mid tier state school kid with decent scores and grades

 

[Goro]

Also suppose Step 1 becomes pass/fail. Would anyone really bother studying for it seriously if they know they're going to pass?

Remember, the goal of NBME is simply to make sure that you're competent. You pass, you're competent.

It also causes a lot of problems for applicants. Step 2 isn't taken until right before you apply to residency, so if you have been preparing for X field your whole time in medical school i.e. field specific research, and then you bomb Step 2 you are completely SOL applying to residency. There isn't any time to prepare an app for a backup specialty, and in the current system applicants have ample time to do this.

As the wise gyngyn has pointed out, they're just kicking the major stressor down the road.

What's this Gen Surg boot camp business referred to above?

 

[deleted731525]

Remember, the goal of NBME is simply to make sure that you're competent. You pass, you're competent.


As the wise gyngyn has pointed out, they're just kicking the major stressor down the road.

What's this Gen Surg boot camp business referred to above?

This, I'm curious. If its related to GS it is probably full of misery and suffering.

 

[aldol16]

Since the PDs will hate this, it makes me wonder if things would revert back a bit to the preMatch days of “old boys club” phone calls and “who you know” for competitive residencies so PDs will know who to invite for interviews. If a PD is only going to interview about 100 people for 5-10 spots for a competitive residency, seems like they’re going to go around the system to find out more info.

They already do this! If you're at a top school, you already have a lot of the right people in your corner. The higher you go in medicine, the more it is about who you know. It shouldn't be that way, but unfortunately it is.

And for many competitive residencies nowadays, a PD will interview maybe 40-50 applicants for 5-10 spots. But really, you probably aren't competing for 5-10 spots. You're probably competing for 2-5 spots. Because you have to subtract out the people from their own school who have an advantage and the rotators. After that, there are a lot fewer spots for people who have never rotated there.

 

[Cheeni17]

Remember, the goal of NBME is simply to make sure that you're competent. You pass, you're competent.


As the wise gyngyn has pointed out, they're just kicking the major stressor down the road.

What's this Gen Surg boot camp business referred to above?

I think most people could make a 200 clicking a for every question

 

[Cheeni17]

Not here to add anything useful but all y’all who want to make it pass fail just aren’t tough enough for medicine if you think it’s OK for people to wimp out of a stressful exam.

Way to lower the bar more in society in order to prevent more triggers

 

[Cheeni17]

No. Not true. Although, all elite schools and MCAT prep companies are just salivating at that idea. Elite schools love to promote grade "neutral" models, so their students can prestige ride all the way down yonder, over the hill and across the rainbow, while we're all stuck in our state school ditches. Right now, via board scores, people have a chance from lesser known places to have some objective metric to point to to compete against top school kids who have an advantage from prestige boost to begin with but also access to big names in fields and research projects more often, due to institutional resources.

Signed,
A poor mid tier state school kid with decent scores and grades

Dude I know they are literally making the MCAT the deciding factor for what residency somebody gets. Funny the other sides argument is “step is not clinical enough and too stressful” yet the MCAT is less of the former and more of the latter

 

[TheIllusionist]

Dude I know they are literally making the MCAT the deciding factor for what residency somebody gets. Funny the other sides argument is “step is not clinical enough and too stressful” yet the MCAT is less of the former and more of the latter

Here is what is sad, I had a 36 3.7. I had a good MCAT but stuck to state school for money reasons. My STEP scores were good, so it is all good. Take STEP away and a lot of kids, especially ORMs often with great scores who can't get into top places as often as they should based on merit, will get screwed once again.

We are turning medicine into high finance and law, where a few people from lesser schools get lucky breaks, but the prestige train dictates more than anything else.

The justification for giving all the steak dinner to the liberal elites is claiming more scraps will go to the poor and URMs. balooney. want to help URMs and the poor, pay science teachers more to teach there. more after school academics art music and sports. more summer camps to keep kids off the streets and with stuff like science camps. People wills say that is welfare and the governmwnt raising the kids. Well so what if it is. Their raising is in such a bad state because the government via terrible historical actions like propping up slavery is largely responsible for the conditions that has created the generation of those that deal with many cultural, economic, and sociological obstacles to access to good schools and parenting. Government has to be daddy when it put daddies of the past in chains, raping them of their culture and rights and relegating future generations to perpetual poverty and backwardness. only intervention in early schooking can reverse that, not eliminating all standards. Eliminating standards hides the issue so the elites can keep Marie Antoinetting away.

"Let them drink ringers lactate!"

 

[deleted171991]

There was a study where the link was posted on reddit which states that step 1 relationship with future performances is not statistically significant. I’ll try to find it

Because the most statistically significant is kissing the boss's butt. The world is not a meritocracy.

 

[deleted547631]

What's the real impetus to make Step 1 P/F? Is it because the average scores have risen too fast or is it that medical schools feel that students aren't focusing on the curriculum as much as board materials?

 

[olabrador23]

What's the real impetus to make Step 1 P/F? Is it because the average scores have risen too fast or is it that medical schools feel that students aren't focusing on the curriculum as much as board materials?

just follow the "money"

 

[efle]

just follow the "money"

The money protects Step 1, they make a killing off it, primarily from their practice materials (plus some from administering it).

If you look at the match lists for big and competitive publicly posted cohorts like MGH IM or Hopkins IM, theres a ton of representation from average ranked / state schools, and has been going back many years. Plus even in classic competitive specialties like Ortho or Derm, the top names are only adding a few dozen applicants to the huge pool competing for the 800 or 500 spots.

Unless someone can show me something to the contrary, cant help but look at the above and say this whole threat is largely imagined. If you're scared of losing your high scores because you find it harder to excel on the wards than on tests, then yeah it would change your outcomes. But the 3 or 4 guys from HMS are gonna steal all the ortho spots in the area away so that UMass applicants cant match any more? Gimme a break.

 

[7331poas]

The money protects Step 1, they make a killing off it, primarily from their practice materials (plus some from administering it).

If you look at the match lists for big and competitive publicly posted cohorts like MGH IM or Hopkins IM, theres a ton of representation from average ranked / state schools, and has been going back many years. Plus even in classic competitive specialties like Ortho or Derm, the top names are only adding a few dozen applicants to the huge pool competing for the 800 or 500 spots.

Unless someone can show me something to the contrary, cant help but look at the above and say this whole threat is largely imagined. If you're scared of losing your high scores because you find it harder to excel on the wards than on tests, then yeah it would change your outcomes. But the 3 or 4 guys from HMS are gonna steal all the ortho spots in the area away so that UMass applicants cant match any more? Gimme a break.

That is because applicants self select from derm. Following this change, now I am perfectly happy to throw in a derm app with my 220 step 1. The unmatch rate will be out of control because no applicant will know where they stand.

 

[efle]

That is because applicants self select from derm. Following this change, now I am perfectly happy to throw in a derm app with my 220 step 1. The unmatch rate will be out of control because no applicant will know where they stand.

I dunno, it's not like derm (or anything else) had a 30% match rate in the 90s when all you needed was a Pass (or before Step existed at all). The big change I'd expect is that securing a spot becomes much more about impressing on rotation / sub-I, either at home program or an away.

 

[ciestar]

just follow the "money"

This is why CS even exists

 

[7331poas]

I dunno, it's not like derm (or anything else) had a 30% match rate in the 90s when all you needed was a Pass (or before Step existed at all). The big change I'd expect is that securing a spot becomes much more about impressing on rotation / sub-I, either at home program or an away.

Derm is not the same field that it was in the 90s.

If I need to wait until the results of my first or second (or third) sub-I before I know if I am competitive for a subspecialty then my chances of matching are dramatically affected. And even then I do not know if my Honor on sub-I will be more important than the Harvard student's High Pass for at least several cycles.

 

[throwaway1000000]

Most of the people that argue against step 1 are people that are not willing to study hard for this test and med school faculty who feel no one is paying attention to them.

 

[Med Ed]

Most of the people that argue against step 1 are people that are not willing to study hard for this test and med school faculty who feel no one is paying attention to them.

And student affairs deans who have to deal with the spike in test-related mental health issues over the past 5 years. And clinical faculty who complain bitterly that new M3's arrive on the wards unable to do anything other than answer A-E. And ultimately some students who take a 5th year for additional prep time and later realize that program directors see right through them.

 

[ciestar]

And student affairs deans who have to deal with the spike in test-related mental health issues over the past 5 years. And clinical faculty who complain bitterly that new M3's arrive on the wards unable to do anything other than answer A-E. And ultimately some students who take a 5th year for additional prep time and later realize that program directors see right through them.

An exam shouldnt define you.. yet it does. I had a hard time getting over my step 1 score. Some people make you feel like you’ll be a lesser doctor because of an exam score. It is a sucky feeling.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

And student affairs deans who have to deal with the spike in test-related mental health issues over the past 5 years. And clinical faculty who complain bitterly that new M3's arrive on the wards unable to do anything other than answer A-E. And ultimately some students who take a 5th year for additional prep time and later realize that program directors see right through them.

Test-related mental health issues? Who’s to say it’s test related. Many of the mental health problems you hear about are from those who’ve already graduated. The real reason for the rise in mental health issues is multifaceted:

-increased debt driving more people into applying to competitive residencies
-huge increase in number of medical students making it more difficult to match into the specialty they want
-expansion of residencies which only worsens the problem by making many specialties oversaturated, requiring people to live in locations they don’t want to or additional waste of time fellowships

The competition has increased across the board from clerkship grades, to research, to letters, it’s all become incredibly stressful.

 

[Med Ed]

Test-related mental health issues? Who’s to say it’s test related.

The students who are experiencing them.

 

[7331poas]

And student affairs deans who have to deal with the spike in test-related mental health issues over the past 5 years. And clinical faculty who complain bitterly that new M3's arrive on the wards unable to do anything other than answer A-E. And ultimately some students who take a 5th year for additional prep time and later realize that program directors see right through them.

Its about to get even more stressful when a random preceptor on your IM/surgery clerkship determines your entire application.

As long as this happens after I take the exam I am fine with it though. Will certainly suck for future graduates from my school though, since they have no hope of competing with more name brand programs.

Do you know when in "winter 2019" they plan on announcing?

 

[Med Ed]

Its about to get even more stressful when a random preceptor on your IM/surgery clerkship determines your entire application.

As long as this happens after I take the exam I am fine with it though. Will certainly suck for future graduates from my school though, since they have no hope of competing with more name brand programs.

Do you know when in "winter 2019" they plan on announcing?

The idea of Step 1 going P/F has certainly captured the imagination, but I don't think it's very likely. They will come up with some workaround and then spend 5+ years trying to determine if it works. In the meantime individual medical schools will alter their curricula to try and mitigate the current situation.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait have any changes been announced?

 

[Lawpy]

And student affairs deans who have to deal with the spike in test-related mental health issues over the past 5 years. And clinical faculty who complain bitterly that new M3's arrive on the wards unable to do anything other than answer A-E. And ultimately some students who take a 5th year for additional prep time and later realize that program directors see right through them.

An exam shouldnt define you.. yet it does. I had a hard time getting over my step 1 score. Some people make you feel like you’ll be a lesser doctor because of an exam score. It is a sucky feeling.

The students who are experiencing them.

So... why is Step 2 CS still in place?

 

[Med Ed]

So... why is Step 2 CS still in place?

Try to imagine a world where the NBME sends out an announcement that it has been wrong all these years, Step 2 CS is not worth, it and they're eliminating it.

Having a hard time envisioning that? Yeah, me too.