Hello SDN! Starting a new med school and want to hear your opinions!

[DoctorDean]

Getting out of the gate on our new school and making lots of plans and designing our curriculum, building, support structures, etc. I'd really love to have input from aspirational MD/DO students and residents about what you would love in a new school that would make it more attractive to you and your peers.
We aren't opening for awhile so we have time to get this right.
If YOU were designing a school that was "student centered", what would that look like?
(For reference, I practiced Emergency Medicine for 17 years before entering medical school administration full time a few years ago)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Well first of all, props to you for even having a heart and asking. I'm a student at a "low tier" US MD school who wants to do primary care in an underserved community. I do not claim to be an expert on medical education, and these thoughts are in no particular order:

1) Please don't have mandatory attendance. It's just not good policy. My school does about 30 hours a week of TBL. I think it's a great service my school provides; however, I don't get very much out of it at all. I don't think my school should abandon TBL, but I do think it should be OK for me not to show up. Or to show up and put headphones in and actually study. It's not that my professors are bad; they're the best I've had. But the large group format doesn't work well for me. Maybe my school doesn't implement it properly? Regardless, I'd be more of a fan of the Yale system where you trust your students to grind because they're med students. Also, I'd be completely fine with mandatory attendance as long as I could put headphones in and study during that class time; VCOM does something like this.

2) What about cost? Let's be real, unless you're opening up the next T20 school, it is getting more and more difficult for most med students to match into competitive specialties. I'll (hopefully?) make somewhere around $250,000 as a family doc. I'm borrowing about $200,000 for school. That's reasonable. If your school costs $400,000+ dollars, I'd feel obligated to try to go into some sort of surgical subspecialty to pay my debt off. Or join the army.

3) Try to have clinical rotations be more than shadowing. Easier said than done these days. If it does end up being shadowing, let your third years go home and study at a reasonable hour I guess.

4) For some reason, most US medical schools now don't seem to be really teaching their students to do well on board exams. To me, the problem isn't US med schools, the problem is step 1 being weird (there's only like 1% anatomy questions, but I have to memorize the pentose phosphate pathway? Huh? and while I should totally know what Enterohemorrhagic enterocolitis is, why do we care that E. coli turns McConkey agar pink again? Idk, I memorized it for boards.)

Regardless, if I were designing a curriculum, first, I'd look at what my students need to know to pass boards. Quite frankly, they'll learn this stuff whether you decide to teach it or not, since if they don't, they'll fail step 1. Where the med schools come in, in my opinion, is teaching the stuff beyond boards that we need to know to be doctors (anatomy, clinical skills, basic histology, etc).

5) Not sure how to word this, but keep in mind the mental and physical health of your students. We should work hard as medical students. If you count the time I spend in class or studying, I'm working 80 hours a week right now. But I have had physician mentors tell me that it "demonstrates my work ethic" to show up to the hospital for 16 hours with a 103 degree fever/vomiting and not take breaks. That's not hard work, that's just stupid.

 

[DoctorDean]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! I literally love everything about your responses. Let me comment by number:
1. We will not have mandatory attendance. Been there, done that, everyone hates it.
2. Planning to likely have costs around the median for COMs. We will be in a major metro area so costs to keep faculty happy will be higher than some places but we aren't going to go nuts here.
3. Love this idea. Have to encourage active learning in the clinical faculty for the student experience. Also a planned robust simulation experience in the preclinical years will focus on clinical skill development using ACGME Milestones as standards for performance. Might as well start early.
4. We are reverse engineering our curriculum based on COMLEX/USMLE content and expectations and will be demonstrating every lecture to have Board relevance by providing direct mapping to the content on these exams. I'm thinking this will be a welcome thing--no more "how is this going to help me pass my Boards" type emails from students! (well, that's the hope anyway)
5. Our mission is to combine an elevated focus on behavioral health education and interprofessional education with Psych professionals alongside the traditional curriculum in order to help our grads be ready for the burden of mental health need in their patients someday, while having a very strong emphasis on providing personal tools for wellness, resilience and burnout-resistance in the class. Its pretty much our whole deal that will make us distinct in the ecosystem of med schools.

I really appreciate your time to provide these recommendations!! Good luck with your studies and in your Match pursuits. Never forget: medicine will take everything you are willing to give it. It is never full. There is always more you will be asked to do. You and you alone must decide how much to give and still keep your health and sanity.

 

[chilly_md]

We are attempting to verify this member but in the meantime we are leaving this open because it is an interesting question with some good discussion so far.

 

[Med Ed]

How long will your pre-clerkship phase be?

Students hate mandatory activities, faculty hate teaching to empty rooms. How will you address this problem?

What is your planned clerkship model? Traditional block? LIC?

What is your beverage of choice?

 

[RockClimberMed]

Is this an MD or DO school?

 

[senecca]

1. Please make the admission 100% merit based and go race blind. Publish your selection criteria to everyone and stick to them. Do not favor any group or discriminate any group.

2. Keep the cost as low as possible. If you plan to offer merit scholarships, please give them based only on merit ( preferably use only the mcat score as the criteria because it is objective). Again, please do not favor or discriminate any particular group. Treat everyone equally.

 

[DoctorDean]

How long will your pre-clerkship phase be?

Students hate mandatory activities, faculty hate teaching to empty rooms. How will you address this problem?

What is your planned clerkship model? Traditional block? LIC?

What is your beverage of choice?

two year preclinical curriculum as standard
we will use smaller rooms that can be expanded as needed to keep the emptiness to a minimum yet provide comfortable space for those who prefer in-person instruction
Clerkship model pretty standard, 10 blocks per year
Usually enjoy a nice sparkling water during the day (waterloo grape is my favorite), social events enjoy a nice old fashioned.

 

[DoctorDean]

1. Please make the admission 100% merit based and go race blind. Publish your selection criteria to everyone and stick to them. Do not favor any group or discriminate any group.

2. Keep the cost as low as possible. If you plan to offer merit scholarships, please give them based only on merit ( preferably use only the mcat score as the criteria because it is objective). Again, please do not favor or discriminate any particular group. Treat everyone equally.

The Consequences of Structural Racism on MCAT Scores and... : Academic Medicine

kely causes of the observed differences in mean Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores between students from groups well represented in medicine and those from groups underrepresented in medicine. The lower mean MCAT scores of underrepresented groups can present challenges to diversifying...

journals.lww.com

Public health depends on a diverse physician workforce. The medical literature is replete with evidence of this.

 

[DoctorDean]

Is this an MD or DO school?

DO

 

[kath00]

DO

That's why you sound so nice!

 

[senecca]

Consider coming up with an automatic acceptance criteria. For example, anyone with 515 mcat, 3.8 gpa, 100 hours of shadowing, 500 hours of research, 500 hours of clinical volunteering and 200 hours of non clinical volunteering will be accepted automatically.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Above member is apparently a pre-med ORM with issues with their soft skills based on their prior posts. Makes sense they only want a stats based system. It’s ok to want what’s good for you, but the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” mentality can be pretty tough for people with minimal straps.

To get back on topic:

1. Try to assign a faculty mentor for all students, who can be changed as necessary. Don’t have to go overboard in terms of mandatory meetings or anything, but somebody to check in with/who’s available for help.

2. This is one of the most important but most difficult things new DO schools deal with: get the absolute best clinical rotations possible. You guys have some time to connect with teaching institutions and try to get your students in. It improves both education and connections for residencies. Even if it’s community preceptors, you have time to vet them and find the best options.

 

[Med Ed]

social events enjoy a nice old fashioned.

Stock up on bitters.

 

[Med Ed]

1. Try to assign a faculty mentor for all students, who can be changed as necessary. Don’t have to go overboard in terms of mandatory meetings or anything, but somebody to check in with/who’s available for help.

Unfortunately faculty mentors end up being a highly uneven resource for this purpose. A robust program of academic advising staffed by qualified learning specialists is 1,000,000x better.

2. This is one of the most important but most difficult things new DO schools deal with: get the absolute best clinical rotations possible. You guys have some time to connect with teaching institutions and try to get your students in. It improves both education and connections for residencies. Even if it’s community preceptors, you have time to vet them and find the best options.

Finding quality clinical rotation sites is the #1 problem for all medical schools. Schools have been opening at a pace well beyond the current capacity for high quality clinical teaching, especially in an era of RVUs.

 

[deleted1166622]

Consider coming up with an automatic acceptance criteria. For example, anyone with 515 mcat, 3.8 gpa, 100 hours of shadowing, 500 hours of research, 500 hours of clinical volunteering and 200 hours of non clinical volunteering will be accepted automatically.

I went through the entire article patiently and found nothing worthy except half a sentence “Individuals of every race and ethnicity obtain scores from the low, middle, and high ranges of the MCAT”. Everything else mentioned is just a propaganda to support a preconceived agenda. An African American refugee girl, homeless , that went to a community college scored 523 on mcat and had thousands of hours of research , volunteering etc. if she can do it , I don’t understand why others can’t ? The so called researchers should go and talk to the high achievers like this girl, figure out how they were able to achieve so much and write articles on them rather than whining and fooling people. That will be useful and worthy.

I firmly believe that all of our physicians irrespective of their race are highly capable of serving and treating patients from all groups. There is no “different secret sauce” that physicians from different races possess . They are all the same. Even if we found some discrepancy or difficulty , our focus/mantra should be “ select the brightest and train them to serve ALL patients equally “.

Not this thread again...

 

[acmed333]

Above member is apparently a pre-med ORM with issues with their soft skills based on their prior posts. Makes sense they only want a stats based system. It’s ok to want what’s good for you, but the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” mentality can be pretty tough for people with minimal straps.

To get back on topic:

1. Try to assign a faculty mentor for all students, who can be changed as necessary. Don’t have to go overboard in terms of mandatory meetings or anything, but somebody to check in with/who’s available for help.

2. This is one of the most important but most difficult things new DO schools deal with: get the absolute best clinical rotations possible. You guys have some time to connect with teaching institutions and try to get your students in. It improves both education and connections for residencies. Even if it’s community preceptors, you have time to vet them and find the best options.

This is the most important thing for a new DO school. Students need to have access to solid rotations with people in many different specialties because they need mentors for the match. Additionally, I have heard multiple DO schools in interviews tout their rotations as more realistic than academic medical centers because they are community and outpatient, like most physicians will end up practicing. While this is true, it also does not allow DO students to understand what it will be like to be a PGY-1 because they have never rotated with residents until away rotations. Rotations don’t all have to be at places that have residents by any means, but it is also important that students understand the dynamic and can be prepared for away rotations and residencies.

 

[gyngyn]

A post from a member who was axe-grinding has been removed.

 

[chssoccer7]

Find a way, regardless of class size, to make the culture integrative and the social bond strong amongst classmates. Most of the schools I have interviewed with that I would prefer to go to have some form of "house" system, where they break the class down into smaller groups that they belong to. These "houses" have specific faculty and admin people assigned to them as their specific mentors and advisors. This is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to form a strong bond between classmates by breaking down the large group into a smaller one.

While I'm not diminishing in any way the amount of support schools that don't do this provide via learning specialists, faculty involvement, everything else, I think a lot of people underestimate the power of social bonds and cohesiveness amongst a group of people with a common goal. Maybe it's the military side of me that is biased but I've seen people accomplish things they probably had no right accomplishing (especially in academics when I was an instructor) purely because their classmates/teammates rallied around them and refused to let them give up/fail when they were struggling. It's a very hard thing to integrate into a school because there has to be an amount of "want to" from students and not just going through the motions because it's another thing they were told to do, but done correctly it is very powerful.

This is what I looked for when crafting my school list. I didn't want 100 gunners who don't give a **** if I fail or succeed as classmates. I wanted to be part of a collective group who wants everyone to succeed and will support each other both as classmates and future colleagues because I know that gives me and my classmates the best chance of success in med school and beyond.

 

[Med Ed]

Find a way, regardless of class size, to make the culture integrative and the social bond strong amongst classmates. Most of the schools I have interviewed with that I would prefer to go to have some form of "house" system, where they break the class down into smaller groups that they belong to. These "houses" have specific faculty and admin people assigned to them as their specific mentors and advisors. This is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to form a strong bond between classmates by breaking down the large group into a smaller one.

These are referred to as "learning communities" in medical education circles, and they are gaining popularity in allopathic schools. I have no idea if they are taking root on the osteopathic side.

Indeed, one of the common themes among struggling students is the propensity to self-isolate. This is done to hide shame, but usually just ends up making things worse.

 

[FlowRate]

Have a robust system for reporting attending/administrator misconduct. Find a way to reassure med students that they will not face retaliation and that they will be taken seriously. And then actually ensure that is the case. Survey students on their course director and rotation site directors and again ensure confidentiality.

There are bad apples in any bunch and med school administration is a particularly great niche to get to be abusive toward people who are fearful of reprisal.

This is just about the only issue I really have with my alma mater. Ironically the person in mind is now a full professor through his "expertise" as a medical educator, despite that there were multiple students who had actually spoken up about him over time and finding out there were multiple students in my year who experienced similar mistreatment. Unfortunately the other students in my year were too scared to go through with actually talking to anyone.

 

[Med Ed]

Have a robust system for reporting attending/administrator misconduct. Find a way to reassure med students that they will not face retaliation and that they will be taken seriously. And then actually ensure that is the case. Survey students on their course director and rotation site directors and again ensure confidentiality.

Sadly, all the assurances in the world will not fix this issue. The perceived ratio of risk versus reward is too high in many cases.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

[Edited]

While I'm presuming you are doing a lot of listening sessions online, we're glad you reached out to us.

I don't know if you are networking for clerkships within your state and/or neighboring states, but I hope you are able to build rapport with the usual state networks to recruit faculty.

I am a big proponent of transparency in admissions so make sure you can empower us staff admins to make true connections between prospects and school community members. (I have a good idea about this. )

I would like to know how the curriculum gives time for students, faculty, and staff to embrace being advocates for marginalized patients and community health. (I have always found this missing.)

I am interested in the interprofessional collaborations, especially pharmacy and dentistry (my biases) beginning first year. It may be early to think about PA Programs at the school, but it might be interesting to know how to involve them and nursing students (home university or neighbors) in didactic and clinical settings. The small group infrastructure is very promising.

And anything to empower your admissions team set up articulation agreements with MSIs. And AHECs.

Oh, tuition incentives/discounts for the first few classes...??

 

[DoctorDean]

Congratulations! If you are a medical school dean (like the head honcho, not admissions or student services), you are the SECOND dean that (I think) is on the forums.

While I'm presuming you are doing a lot of listening sessions online, we're glad you reached out to us.

I don't know if you are networking for clerkships within your state and/or neighboring states, but I hope you are able to build rapport with the usual state networks to recruit faculty.

I am a big proponent of transparency in admissions so make sure you can empower us staff admins to make true connections between prospects and school community members. (I have a good idea about this. )

I would like to know how the curriculum gives time for students, faculty, and staff to embrace being advocates for marginalized patients and community health. (I have always found this missing.)

I am interested in the interprofessional collaborations, especially pharmacy and dentistry (my biases) beginning first year. It may be early to think about PA Programs at the school, but it might be interesting to know how to involve them and nursing students (home university or neighbors) in didactic and clinical settings. The small group infrastructure is very promising.

And anything to empower your admissions team set up articulation agreements with MSIs. And AHECs.

Oh, tuition incentives/discounts for the first few classes...??

In fact, I am our Dean. Thank you for the great comments. I’m not sure I’d consider myself a “honcho” though lol

Consider coming up with an automatic acceptance criteria. For example, anyone with 515 mcat, 3.8 gpa, 100 hours of shadowing, 500 hours of research, 500 hours of clinical volunteering and 200 hours of non clinical volunteering will be accepted automatically.

 

[DoctorDean]

Above member is apparently a pre-med ORM with issues with their soft skills based on their prior posts. Makes sense they only want a stats based system. It’s ok to want what’s good for you, but the “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” mentality can be pretty tough for people with minimal straps.

To get back on topic:

1. Try to assign a faculty mentor for all students, who can be changed as necessary. Don’t have to go overboard in terms of mandatory meetings or anything, but somebody to check in with/who’s available for help.

2. This is one of the most important but most difficult things new DO schools deal with: get the absolute best clinical rotations possible. You guys have some time to connect with teaching institutions and try to get your students in. It improves both education and connections for residencies. Even if it’s community preceptors, you have time to vet them and find the best options.

Great comments. I’ve worked quite hard to establish excellent clinical affiliates, most/all of whom have GME on site. 800+ bed Tertiary care referral centers. 1000+ residency positions in aggregate. I think our clinical training will be exemplary. I’m encouraged that these efforts would be seen as high value by the applicant community as well.

 

[DoctorDean]

Have a robust system for reporting attending/administrator misconduct. Find a way to reassure med students that they will not face retaliation and that they will be taken seriously. And then actually ensure that is the case. Survey students on their course director and rotation site directors and again ensure confidentiality.

There are bad apples in any bunch and med school administration is a particularly great niche to get to be abusive toward people who are fearful of reprisal.

This is just about the only issue I really have with my alma mater. Ironically the person in mind is now a full professor through his "expertise" as a medical educator, despite that there were multiple students who had actually spoken up about him over time and finding out there were multiple students in my year who experienced similar mistreatment. Unfortunately the other students in my year were too scared to go through with actually talking to anyone.

Great comment and I think anyone who acts like that because they aren’t afraid of reprisal and somehow managed to sneak onto my staff would be shown the door unless they changed their tune. I’d like to think so anyway.

 

[DoctorDean]

Find a way, regardless of class size, to make the culture integrative and the social bond strong amongst classmates. Most of the schools I have interviewed with that I would prefer to go to have some form of "house" system, where they break the class down into smaller groups that they belong to. These "houses" have specific faculty and admin people assigned to them as their specific mentors and advisors. This is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to form a strong bond between classmates by breaking down the large group into a smaller one.

While I'm not diminishing in any way the amount of support schools that don't do this provide via learning specialists, faculty involvement, everything else, I think a lot of people underestimate the power of social bonds and cohesiveness amongst a group of people with a common goal. Maybe it's the military side of me that is biased but I've seen people accomplish things they probably had no right accomplishing (especially in academics when I was an instructor) purely because their classmates/teammates rallied around them and refused to let them give up/fail when they were struggling. It's a very hard thing to integrate into a school because there has to be an amount of "want to" from students and not just going through the motions because it's another thing they were told to do, but done correctly it is very powerful.

This is what I looked for when crafting my school list. I didn't want 100 gunners who don't give a **** if I fail or succeed as classmates. I wanted to be part of a collective group who wants everyone to succeed and will support each other both as classmates and future colleagues because I know that gives me and my classmates the best chance of success in med school and beyond.

Anyone who actually practiced medicine for a living understands that there’s no role for gunners in that community. We all need each other to do our respective jobs with professional excellence so we give great care to our patients. It’s a team sport folks. I intend to establish that culture from the get-go.

 

[DoctorDean]

Find a way, regardless of class size, to make the culture integrative and the social bond strong amongst classmates. Most of the schools I have interviewed with that I would prefer to go to have some form of "house" system, where they break the class down into smaller groups that they belong to. These "houses" have specific faculty and admin people assigned to them as their specific mentors and advisors. This is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to form a strong bond between classmates by breaking down the large group into a smaller one.

While I'm not diminishing in any way the amount of support schools that don't do this provide via learning specialists, faculty involvement, everything else, I think a lot of people underestimate the power of social bonds and cohesiveness amongst a group of people with a common goal. Maybe it's the military side of me that is biased but I've seen people accomplish things they probably had no right accomplishing (especially in academics when I was an instructor) purely because their classmates/teammates rallied around them and refused to let them give up/fail when they were struggling. It's a very hard thing to integrate into a school because there has to be an amount of "want to" from students and not just going through the motions because it's another thing they were told to do, but done correctly it is very powerful.

This is what I looked for when crafting my school list. I didn't want 100 gunners who don't give a **** if I fail or succeed as classmates. I wanted to be part of a collective group who wants everyone to succeed and will support each other both as classmates and future colleagues because I know that gives me and my classmates the best chance of success in med school and beyond.

Is that sort of a “Harry Potter” model?

 

[chssoccer7]

Is that sort of a “Harry Potter” model?

I think insofar as they were called "houses" perhaps, but another poster commented that they are called "learning communities" by most of the medical community. It's just a way to break your large class down into smaller groups to form bonds/receive attention necessary from faculty, as in large groups (>30+ or so) it's easy for students to slip through cracks.

 

[DoctorDean]

I think insofar as they were called "houses" perhaps, but another poster commented that they are called "learning communities" by most of the medical community. It's just a way to break your large class down into smaller groups to form bonds/receive attention necessary from faculty, as in large groups (>30+ or so) it's easy for students to slip through cracks.

Sounds like a great approach. I’ve not experienced that in my past engagements so I’ll make sure to look into it. Another fantastic new idea for me!

 

[chssoccer7]

Sounds like a great approach. I’ve not experienced that in my past engagements so I’ll make sure to look into it. Another fantastic new idea for me!

Defining Learning Communities in Undergraduate Medical Education: A National Study - PMC

Learning communities (LCs) are intentionally designed groups that are actively engaged in learning with and from each other. While gaining prominence in US medical schools, LCs show significant variability in their characteristics across ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here's a good fairly recent article if you're interested in reading about it.

 

[DoctorDean]

Defining Learning Communities in Undergraduate Medical Education: A National Study - PMC

Learning communities (LCs) are intentionally designed groups that are actively engaged in learning with and from each other. While gaining prominence in US medical schools, LCs show significant variability in their characteristics across ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here's a good fairly recent article if you're interested in reading about it.

I think these types of groups can sometimes kind of organically form/self-organize if not directed intentionally—at least in my class it did—but having a system that facilitates this type of organization seems a more certain way for good outcomes.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Getting out of the gate on our new school and making lots of plans and designing our curriculum, building, support structures, etc. I'd really love to have input from aspirational MD/DO students and residents about what you would love in a new school that would make it more attractive to you and your peers.
We aren't opening for awhile so we have time to get this right.
If YOU were designing a school that was "student centered", what would that look like?
(For reference, I practiced Emergency Medicine for 17 years before entering medical school administration full time a few years ago)

I am an old man with a kid who is a physician. I also hold four academic degrees and had three professional licenses. Allow me to give you some advice regarding medical school admissions.

First, recognize that the chance an applicant has of getting admitted to an MD school varies significantly by the applicant's state of residence. Approximately 50% of all matriculants at MD schools attend a state owned school in their state of residence. Some states like Michigan and Ohio have a large number of state owned med school seats relative to the state's population. Some state's such as Rhode Island and New Hampshire have no state owned seats at all. See the table below. Note the significant differences by state regarding average MCAT score among matriculants.
https://www.aamc.org/media/6076/download?attachment

Second, please recognize that students in the physical sciences, i.e. chemistry and physics, take more science classes, harder science classes and more science classes every semester than other applicants. Unfortunately, medical school admissions offices apparently overlook that reality. See this table.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6061/download?attachment

Please note that the average MCAT score among physical science majors who matriculated in 2022 was 2 points higher than all others and the average GPA was equal to the rest notwithstanding the tougher course load. You might think that some slack would be cut for physical science majors but that is simply not the case.

Third, please recognize that different undergraduate colleges have different ACT/SAT profiles and competition for grades varies significantly among institutions. A 3.5 GPA from the lowest ranked four year college in the SUNY system doesn't equate to a 3.5 from Carleton or Grinnell. Unfortunately, the conventional wisdom among SDN posters is that the rigor of the undergraduate college and major is a nonissue. It seems to me that admissions offices should be informed about the undergraduate college each applicant attended.

If I were running your admissions office, I would look for undervalued applicants who went to tough schools and majored in the physical sciences or engineering. If your school will be private, I would seek applications from states that have high average MCAT scores among matriculants. In other words, play "Moneyball".

 

[DoctorDean]

Dear fellow old man, thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful reply! I’ve been on several admissions committees and so I know that your assertions have some wisdom. But because you have said you’ve got a “few years on the chassis” like me, I’m going to ask you a harder question. While your assertion to play “moneyball” would surely result in better MCATs and GPAs, do you believe that these numbers translate into better physicians, when they complete their training? After interviewing hundreds of applicants over the years, I reflect on this all the time. I mean, a candidate has to be able to succeed in the coursework of med school and pass their Boards of course—no question there. But I have known many colleagues who have done so and are regarded as pretty cruddy doctors. There’s so much more to medicine than the “hard sciences”. In my 20+ years taking care of patients, I have never once been asked what my GPA or MCAT scores were, or what my Board score was. People care about other things and value other things when it comes to their physician. I want to continue the pursuit of the “holy grail”—those indicators that will tell me that a student can succeed at the academic rigors of medical school but possess those qualities in large measure that patients desire in their trusted physicians….

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Dear fellow old man, thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful reply! I’ve been on several admissions committees and so I know that your assertions have some wisdom. But because you have said you’ve got a “few years on the chassis” like me, I’m going to ask you a harder question. While your assertion to play “moneyball” would surely result in better MCATs and GPAs, do you believe that these numbers translate into better physicians, when they complete their training? After interviewing hundreds of applicants over the years, I reflect on this all the time. I mean, a candidate has to be able to succeed in the coursework of med school and pass their Boards of course—no question there. But I have known many colleagues who have done so and are regarded as pretty cruddy doctors. There’s so much more to medicine than the “hard sciences”. In my 20+ years taking care of patients, I have never once been asked what my GPA or MCAT scores were, or what my Board score was. People care about other things and value other things when it comes to their physician. I want to continue the pursuit of the “holy grail”—those indicators that will tell me that a student can succeed at the academic rigors of medical school but possess those qualities in large measure that patients desire in their trusted physicians….

In general, patients have no clue about MCAT scores and the varying rigor of colleges. However, they want the right answer more than anything else. I had a law school classmate who had low back pain and was shuttled from doctor to doctor without an accurate diagnosis. He eventually diagnosed his own testicular cancer based on an article he read in Penthouse! He died a year later.

I've known two Harvard MBAs who couldn't hold a job. Nevertheless, I want the smartest guy in the room when I'm being seen by a physician. The best measure to date are GPAs and MCATs. Thanks.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I definitely appreciate the Moneyball reference made by @Obnoxious Dad and have made those arguments to admissions faculty about the points made. I have argued these points under holistic review (having been an engineering major). In the end, we have to remember that admissions only focuses on getting students who we feel can be best trained to serve our patient communities. It is an easy error to blame admissions for not producing "good doctors." We are used to this, and we are not fortune tellers.

What I feel makes students into the best doctors are the culture and curriculum that @DoctorDean is working on with their faculty. You want to find inspiring practitioners that students want to model. You must mitigate or discipline the practitioners who perpetuate negative or toxic norms that have persisted. You want a culture of learning, respect, and innovation towards service to others. Just like I tell advisees: don't just throw out buzzwords in your mission; show me how you live up to them.

We also realize we pick future students who are not all at the same points of maturity in their lives, and we need students and faculty to realize this. The students who graduate literally should not be the same as the ones you matriculated. The formal and hidden curricula play such a crucial role in forming future professionals, and those are the more important factors, not the incoming midrange GPA or tests.

The indicators I have always argued for include appropriate science rigor prior to starting med school, opportunities building a true professional purpose to advocate for a community, and an understanding that you have to navigate a less than perfect health care system that rewards attitudes and behaviors that will burn you out. (Systems competencies are apparently not important in admitting preprofessionals, IMO.) Students will be best served with strong mentoring and role models who can protect them from these pressures while learning their trade or fulfilling their purpose. These are the students (and friends) who have been most successful. (See Becoming a Student Doctor resource.)

The challenge is that everything done in a curriculum needs to be measured and documented for accreditation. There is a reason why we test every week to see learner progress. There is a good argument for mandatory preclinical lectures and dress codes (and against them). There is a good argument for and against recording lectures or relying on third parties for Board prep.

I will agree with both points. I want smart and experienced people ultimately guiding me. I want confident and compassionate health team members. I don't like people who keep bouncing me around because they don't know the answer as it's not in their wheel house. I do want physicians to be vulnerable to share common insights or experiences when I need the consolation. GPA/tests only cover the regulatory expectations of the profession to document clinical thinking is sufficient. But everything else is a residual of all the professional influences (good and bad) on that physician's method of practice.

 

[DoctorDean]

I definitely appreciate the Moneyball reference made by @Obnoxious Dad and have made those arguments to admissions faculty about the points made. I have argued these points under holistic review (having been an engineering major). In the end, we have to remember that admissions only focuses on getting students who we feel can be best trained to serve our patient communities. It is an easy error to blame admissions for not producing "good doctors." We are used to this, and we are not fortune tellers.

What I feel makes students into the best doctors are the culture and curriculum that @DoctorDean is working on with their faculty. You want to find inspiring practitioners that students want to model. You must mitigate or discipline the practitioners who perpetuate negative or toxic norms that have persisted. You want a culture of learning, respect, and innovation towards service to others. Just like I tell advisees: don't just throw out buzzwords in your mission; show me how you live up to them.

We also realize we pick future students who are not all at the same points of maturity in their lives, and we need students and faculty to realize this. The students who graduate literally should not be the same as the ones you matriculated. The formal and hidden curricula play such a crucial role in forming future professionals, and those are the more important factors, not the incoming midrange GPA or tests.

The indicators I have always argued for include appropriate science rigor prior to starting med school, opportunities building a true professional purpose to advocate for a community, and an understanding that you have to navigate a less than perfect health care system that rewards attitudes and behaviors that will burn you out. (Systems competencies are apparently not important in admitting preprofessionals, IMO.) Students will be best served with strong mentoring and role models who can protect them from these pressures while learning their trade or fulfilling their purpose. These are the students (and friends) who have been most successful. (See Becoming a Student Doctor resource.)

The challenge is that everything done in a curriculum needs to be measured and documented for accreditation. There is a reason why we test every week to see learner progress. There is a good argument for mandatory preclinical lectures and dress codes (and against them). There is a good argument for and against recording lectures or relying on third parties for Board prep.

I will agree with both points. I want smart and experienced people ultimately guiding me. I want confident and compassionate health team members. I don't like people who keep bouncing me around because they don't know the answer as it's not in their wheel house. I do want physicians to be vulnerable to share common insights or experiences when I need the consolation. GPA/tests only cover the regulatory expectations of the profession to document clinical thinking is sufficient. But everything else is a residual of all the professional influences (good and bad) on that physician's method of practice.

This. Absolutely agree.

 

[LunaOri]

To continue the Moneyball analogy: I think students from super-rigorous schools (MIT, UChicago, CalTech, Hopkins, Williams, Amherst etc) who have GPA's of 3.4+ are an under-valued group. The absence of grade inflation hinders them from being admitted to "top" schools, but they have excellent potential to succeed.

 

[HuskyMD Emeritus]

We had to undergo training against implicit bias prior to reviewing medical school applications and part of the bias we were to avoid was the halo effect of students attending the schools with reputations for their academic rigor as well as the various more challenging degrees. Thus those who attended community college for their prerequisites may be viewed in the same light as those who attended Cal Tech (but no matter how much training against implicit bias one has, I think most of us will still look more favorably towards the EE major from Cal Tech). But this is where holistic review is important and it takes me an hour or more to go through each application, reading each essay, personal statement, meaningful activity and LOR word for word and sometimes, have to read between the lines.
Question for @DoctorDean: How are you recruiting faculty and what do you look for in both the basic science and clinical faculty? Can you disclose where your school is located or is that still a secret?

 

[DoctorDean]

Well it’s not a secret per se, but because our accreditors look poorly on schools saying they are schools before they are actually further along the path, I’m trying to stay somewhat incognito. I’ll just say it’s proposed to open near the center of a major metropolitan city. We aren’t on “a mission from God”, but it’s a pretty toddlin town.

 

[DoctorDean]

We had to undergo training against implicit bias prior to reviewing medical school applications and part of the bias we were to avoid was the halo effect of students attending the schools with reputations for their academic rigor as well as the various more challenging degrees. Thus those who attended community college for their prerequisites may be viewed in the same light as those who attended Cal Tech (but no matter how much training against implicit bias one has, I think most of us will still look more favorably towards the EE major from Cal Tech). But this is where holistic review is important and it takes me an hour or more to go through each application, reading each essay, personal statement, meaningful activity and LOR word for word and sometimes, have to read between the lines.
Question for @DoctorDean: How are you recruiting faculty and what do you look for in both the basic science and clinical faculty? Can you disclose where your school is located or is that still a secret?

I’m not too far down the faculty recruitment process just yet—it’s still early. I have two associate deans and a few key players but we’ll be a year or so until we get into heavy recruitment. I’ll be looking for alignment with our mission and goals and demonstrated ability in teaching. And I don’t tolerate bad actors so it will be very clear that you can’t be a jerk and work at my school.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Great comments. I’ve worked quite hard to establish excellent clinical affiliates, most/all of whom have GME on site. 800+ bed Tertiary care referral centers. 1000+ residency positions in aggregate. I think our clinical training will be exemplary. I’m encouraged that these efforts would be seen as high value by the applicant community as well.

Fantastic, congrats if you’ve already got that locked up! It’s a huge selling point in my eyes, as even primary care focused students will get a lot out of the opportunities. Being in a major metro is going to be a big plus for many applicants as well.

Behind the scenes look at DoctorDean’s accreditation/faculty recruitment pitch:

 

[Hollow Knight]

To continue the Moneyball analogy: I think students from super-rigorous schools (MIT, UChicago, CalTech, Hopkins, Williams, Amherst etc) who have GPA's of 3.4+ are an under-valued group. The absence of grade inflation hinders them from being admitted to "top" schools, but they have excellent potential to succeed.

One of my premed friends at Boston College was in classes that were curved DOWN to make a bell. Like, the highest grade is a 100, the lowest grade is a 94, but the whole class is stratified to artificially make a bell curve to C, B, and A.

Now, while I think that grading system is patently absurd, it does prove your point. I think systems like that are at the more prestigious, tougher schools. My rinky dink undergrad would have rioted.

 

[Goro]

Have in place before the school opens a very serious mental health and academic support system. Also a well-endowed clinical education department that can keep tabs on preceptors and student rotations.

And if you're a DO school, ask COCA to stop opening new medical schools before they glut the market and will be graduating unemployable doctors.

Oh yeah, P/F grading for the preclinical years, and no required lecture classes.

 

[chicandtoughness]

1) Please don't have mandatory attendance. It's just not good policy. My school does about 30 hours a week of TBL. I think it's a great service my school provides; however, I don't get very much out of it at all. I don't think my school should abandon TBL, but I do think it should be OK for me not to show up. Or to show up and put headphones in and actually study. It's not that my professors are bad; they're the best I've had. But the large group format doesn't work well for me. Maybe my school doesn't implement it properly? Regardless, I'd be more of a fan of the Yale system where you trust your students to grind because they're med students. Also, I'd be completely fine with mandatory attendance as long as I could put headphones in and study during that class time; VCOM does something like this.

30 HOURS of TBL?!
Lord, we have ~5 hours of TBL and ~6 hours of PBL and I thought we had it bad. I would lose my ****.

To be honest, I think most schools implement TBL very poorly, so my first recommendation for a med school is to just... not have TBLs 😂

 

[Goro]

30 HOURS of TBL?!
Lord, we have ~5 hours of TBL and ~6 hours of PBL and I thought we had it bad. I would lose my ****.

To be honest, I think most schools implement TBL very poorly, so my first recommendation for a med school is to just... not have TBLs 😂

I have yet to see that TBLs improve Board outcomes or in class grades. The students seem to like them, and they do encourgae teamwork, but honestly, they're overdone.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Are there Board prep courses that use TBL format (noting how I phrased this)? I'm under more of the impression that TBL helps students with diverse thinking and collaboration with different members of a team, neither of which (I'm under the impression) are really the goals of being successful on Boards. Unless they develop some sort of team-based exam. Instead, it should be to better acclimate students to huddles that (I thought) are common for medical education with preceptors and residents at various stages of experience, not to mention interprofessional teams.