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HELP Please. Osteopathic Anesthesia Board Acceptance

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by Stable asystole, Nov 13, 2005.

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  1. Stable asystole

    Stable asystole I think I smell a M&M
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    Can anyone help me Please. I have been interviewing, and I am an Osteopathic type. I have done some interviews at osteopathic anesthesia programs. They were great and I really enjoyed the visit, BUT and this is a HUGE but, if I go there and graduate, pass the "Osteopathic anesthesia Boards" but do not take the ABA, becasue I can not take them unless I go to allopathic program (I double checked with them). Will I be able to get a job after graduation.

    I ask this question only becasue I have been doing some rotations in anesthesia and every single doctor MD and DO did not even know there was such a thing as osteopathic boards, and many said that there practice would not hire a doc boarded with osteopathic boards. ABA only

    I do not want to miss an opportunity, but I also do not want to be unemployable after the end of my residency.

    Please help. Any serious input would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  3. Laryngospasm

    Laryngospasm Trench Dog
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    Not sure, but I would do everything I could to get ABA certified, at whatever cost. Also, what if you decide you want to do a fellowship, I dont think they take people from osteopathic programs very often if at all. :confused:
     
  4. :laugh: Dude, why dont you go back to school and get an MD so you can be a real doctor?
     
  5. UTSouthwestern

    UTSouthwestern 1K Member
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    With the market being what it is, coming from an osteopathic residency with osteopathic boards is likely to limit you to osteopathic hospitals/practices. There are some groups that already will not hire DO's. I would probably use those programs as a fallback option only with the understanding that you will likely have to join that staff to practice.
     
  6. Poety

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    What's wrong with you? You're making a fool of yourself, seriously. And yes, I'm a US MD grad- who happens to respect my colleagues.
     
  7. adleyinga

    adleyinga Einstein
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    You would be limited in where you can practice.
     
  8. davvid2700

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    First of all You can practice even without being board certified..

    The osteopathic boards are recognized by the abms.. so for all intents and purposes its the same thing.. regardless of whether anybody thinks which is more prestigious.. Try to attend a residency you feel most comfortable with.. There are DOs who are board certified through ABA
     
  9. davvid2700

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    i actually had a friend of mine who graduated from a allo program in chicago and is an osteopathic doctor.. he said he was taking the osteo boards because they were more straightforward less tricks etc..
     
  10. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Code word for not being able to pass the ABA boards which are recognized by the ABMS.

    The ABMS and the AOA boards are 2 different certifying organizations....the AOA boards are generally recognized as one which holds its applicants to somewhat lower standards.
     
  11. I'm a green scaley troll who lives under a bridge....and youre that resident/physician who takes everything literally and everyone worries about offending so they never ask you to go drinking with them.
     
  12. davvid2700

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    i wonder if yo ucan still say you are " Board Certified" if you go the osteopathic board route.. Interesting question! I may call the abms and ask them and get back to you guys.

    whether those boards are easier or not.. is irrelevant..
     
  13. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    There are actually 3 different organizations that offer "board certification" in anesthesiology.... ABMS, AOA, and one other with a name that I can't remember right now.

    If you are certified by any one of them....you are technically "board certified"....except no one knows which board you are referring to.

    The lay public assumes all "board certifed" physicians are certifed by the ABMS boards.

    I think anyone who passes themselves of as "board certifed" by using the lesser 2 boards is DISHONEST.
     
  14. davvid2700

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    DO you consider osteopathic physicians lesser physicians? since you think their boards are "lesser"

    Just for info.. im an allopathic doc.. passed the ABA exam
     
  15. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    No, I do not. If one completes an allopathic residency, then take the ABMS boards.

    My problem is with DOs with finish an allopathic residency, and having failed the ABMS boards a few times, go ahead and take the AOA boards and pass themselves off as "board certified".

    And on another note, I do consider osteopathic schools as lower rated.....that is my opinion....no comments on this please.
     
  16. davvid2700

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    Thats exactly what you would do if you couldnt pass the ABA exam.. You would take the osteo exam and pass and say you are Board Certified.. It would put food on the table so thats what you would do..
     
  17. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    that's what people do....and I find that less than honest...knowing that the lay public only knows about the ABMS boards.
     
  18. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    As far as I am concerned, one is not "board certifed" unless one is ABMS certified.

    If one is certifed by anything other than the ABMS, then one should clearly state "I am board certifed by the AOA...not the ABMS".....this would be followed by an explanation of why one is not certifed by the ABMS.
     
  19. Malph

    Malph 3rd yr DO & AMA Delagate
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    Although you clearly do not understand the Accreditation process, the main question has yet to be answered:

    Is there a difference in Employability between ABMS and AOA accredited individuals?
     
  20. Trisomy13

    Trisomy13 ultra
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    i use this trick with patients. being an MS-4 i really can't say i'm board certified, so i rely on homonyms. when the patient asks if i am an official anesthesiologist i smile and say in a clear and confident tone "I am bored. Certified."

    everyone is happy.



















    i'm not serious. seriously.
     
  21. CatsandCradles

    CatsandCradles SDN Donor
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    That's what I call humor!


    Well, as for the allopathic folks here who are so hostile towards DOs, well what should you have me do for you guys? Get down on the ground and grovel at your feet?

    I truly am beggining to think that some of you enertain that in your minds everytime you meet a DO.

    ....But don't worry, I know that many MDs and DOs have a tendency to look down on RNs...so that just shows we all have over inflated egos and pride.

    Maybe that's why we all need lawyers to puncture that pride ballon of ours eh? BOOM! :laugh:
     
  22. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Ok, explain the accreditation process to me than. I thought I understood. I know someone who trained at an ABA site....failed his boards through the ABA...then all of a sudden he is board certified....AOA because he is a DO.

    So if I don't understand...please clarify.

    As for employability differences....it depends on the employer.
     
  23. Idiopathic

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    Not just any DO grad can sit for the AOA boards, I believe. Im not sure if you have to complete an AOA residency, but it would make sense. Everyone who claims they 'know someone who...' likely doesnt know the story. Anyone who is going to ask for board certification is likely going to be a little more diligent when they are hiring, if it truly matters to them.
     
  24. davvid2700

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    Find out more about it and get back to us on here..


    There should be no difference in employability between a DO or an MD.. Some people do have kind of a snobby attitude and believe MD is better. Whatever you dont want to work for them anyways.. I guess military is one of them..
     
  25. UTSouthwestern

    UTSouthwestern 1K Member
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    Military believes in board certification by one board (ABA). There are groups that will not hire DO's, and in my opinion, that shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not to hire someone. If you are good, you are good and one of the best CV anesthesiologists I worked with in residency was a DO who went to Northwestern for residency and Texas Hearts for fellowship. Knowledgeable, great skills, all you could want. You can't tell me that he isn't qualified to join 90+% of the groups in this country.

    However, taking a board that is somewhat obscure will likely scuttle any solid chances you have to begin with.
     
  26. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    You can sit for the AOA board if you are a DO and if you completed any type of residency ABMS or DO.

    The ABA boards only accepts ABMS accredited programs.

    The ABA is more selective.

    DO's have the option (if they fail the ABA boards) to go the other route.....

    Employers will determine what boards they will accept. Some hospitals will only accept ABMS boards.

    I and my partners have decided that we are only going to accept the ABA board. We don't care whether you are a DO or MD....you just need to pass the ABMS recognized ABA boards.
     
  27. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    The requirements include:

    "5. The applicant must have satisfactorily completed an AOA-approved internship.

    6. a. If residency training was completed after July 1, 1986, the applicant must have satisfactorily completed a minimum of three (3) years of AOA-approved formal training in anesthesiology after the required AOA-approved internship."


    Im not sure that an ACGME residency falls under the "AOA-approved formal training" but I could be wrong.

    To the OP: plenty of physicians are not board-certified and plenty find jobs. Its certainly not the ideal way to go, but if it happens, it happens.

    And its also a hirer's right not to hire someone who isn't board-certified.
     
  28. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    AOA approved training programs include ACGME accredited ones.
     
  29. Disse

    Disse Member
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    Dude.

    You don't know what you're talking about (or only know half of what you're talking about which is more dangerous).

    In general (for all GME) there are three certifications:
    1) ACGME
    2) AOA
    3) Jointly accredited ACGME/AOA programs (these are ACGME programs that decided to jump more hoops and get AOA approval).

    The VAST majority of jointly accredited programs are FP & IM. Although I haven't looked I have never even heard of any other program other than FP or IM being jointly accredited and there are NO jointly accredited ACGME/AOA approved anesthesia residencies.

    Unless your "someone you know" did residency long ago and got grandfathered in somehow I'd REALLY like to know (like, for real.. not hearsay or rumor) how they suddenly became board certified through the AOA after failing the ABA boards.

    Now, if you're in the military things might go differently as DO's I think can gain AOA certification by somehow getting their internships/residencies approved. However, this is strictly hearsay because I have no hard proof for it.
     
  30. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    But then again what the hell do we know? We're just DO's. Thats the line that makes going to an osteopathic "medical school" worth it.

    ;)
     
  31. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    No, you see, he knows someone.

    In all honesty, there are likely some ACGME progs that are AOA-approved, but I dont really think anyone here knows for sure that all/none are.
     
  32. davvid2700

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    Im totally ****ing lost..

    what is the difference between a do vs md vs crna.. thats the question



    In all seriousness I started my internship in 99 and have been at 3 programs.. one for my internship one for my residency and one for my fellowship.. All had DOs and there were all sharp and nice people.. They had more social skills and they were more down to earth that the MDs. I am an MD. based on my experience there is NO difference between the 2 degrees.
    Unfortunately, there are some people (in hiring positions) who do and its a shame.
     
  33. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Get into a hiring position and hire some DO's.

    All kidding aside. For whatever reason, you really aren't reading my threads. You seem to want to take everything I say and spin it in the negative way. (perhaps a sign of insecurity....always thinking someone is out to diss you??)

    There is a bell curve of distribution of skills and abilities in any anesthesia provider....MD/DO/CRNA or whatever.

    It is generally accepted that physicians' bell curve of skills/knowledge/etc. would be more to the right as compared to CRNAs...but there is overlap.

    And I'm telling you....MD's bell curve is to the right of DO's....just simply based on the acceptance standards into the different schools. Whether you want to believe it or not....it is easier to get into DO schools than MD schools. A fact that is stated by many DO's that I know....

    There is overlap, but the bell curves are not the same.

    As for someone I know.....I work with someone right now who trained in anesthesia at Vanderbilt and is AOA certified.

    For those in the know...explain that to me.
     
  34. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    So, you are saying that, based on the medical school choice, if we do our residency at the same place, you are, by default, a more qualified provider of anesthesia? Specious reasoning, sir. I expected better. I would think that most anesthesiologists would agree that they learn close to 100% of their skillset in residency. Maybe for medicine or other specialties its different, but for a discipline that so few people get serious exposure to in school...


    I understand your point though. You think DO's are substandard, for the most part. Its a common misperception (to quote a famous orator).
     
  35. pej933

    pej933 Member
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    What ever, dude. I think you show some real unprofessionalism with your posts here. Some of the best doctors I know are DOs, that's a fact. They include neurosurgeons, infectious disease, orthopedics, etc. What a bunch of bull****.
     
  36. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Why do you guys take things so personally?

    I did not attend an Ivy league school because I couldn't get in. If someone stated that Ivy leagues have a better pedigree and, on a bell curve, then to be better trained....I would say "ok". They after all got into schools that I couldn't get into.

    Like I said, BIG signs of insecurity.

    BTW, explain the Vanderbilt guy for me.
     
  37. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Bottom line of what I'm saying.....everyone should just pass the ABMS boards administered by the ABA.

    Whether you are MD, MBBS, DO, or whatever medical degrees there are out there.

    Taking any of the other boards (AOA, ABPS, + others if they exist) and then passing yourself off as "board certified" is dishonest, and discredits your degree, whether it be MD, MBBS, DO or whatever.
     
  38. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    Ive said all along that I wasnt sure about the AOA thing, so obviously I cant refute your one anecdotal example of this.

    As far as the former, I happen to think that you would take great umbrage with someone who argued that because he/she went to a medical school with higher admissions standards, they were a better-qualified/trained anesthesiologist. Doesnt it just sound silly? This is a big deal to me because I have had to deal with this more than once on the interview trail. Im certainly more secure than to just get offended by your statement, which you believe to be true. Id just like for you to agree that your point is very one-dimensional and equates to valuing the worth of a clinician based on MCAT scores.
     
  39. Disse

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    Bah. Big nice post went *poof* into the void of SDN (must be because of that DO bell curve thing) but basically went along with the "pedigree = better doctor" silliness that Idio posted.

    My major gripe with your post is that you were posting like God's own gospel how DO's can just become AOA certified if they fail the ABA boards especially as it became obvious that you don't have a clue about osteopathic GME or licensure (I'm sure you'd agree that having people post definatively about things they don't really know about is annoying--sort of like med students or residents talking about how to run an anesthesia group).

    With that being said, regarding your Vanderbilt co-worker/associate I have no clue how he/she gained AOA certification because, by the books, if they are a recent graduate they should not be able to (unless there is more to this case than any of us know).

    Of course, I guess the easiest way to get to the bottom of it would be to simply ask them and then you could post here and enlighten us all.
     
  40. me454555

    me454555 Senior Member
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    How can you even make that sort of comment unless you're looking for candidates to fill a residency program. By the time an anesthesiologist completes his/her residency training, they are much less a reflection of the school they attended and more a reflection of the residency program.

    Why would it even matter in the slightest what school you went to before residency in turning out a great clincian? Lets say Student A, B, and C graduate from the same residency program in the same year. Student A went to harvard for med school, student B when to state school, and student C went to state osteopathic school. By the time they are done w/residency training, I would say that they are all going to be similar in skillset and knowledge base b/c they all trained at the same institution.

    The fact that one was a more competitive applicant for medical school becomes irrelevant b/c that hurdle has passed. All 3 of these student were obviously competitive enough to make it into the residency program and they all start on even ground.
     
  41. apellous

    apellous Senior Member
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    Miliary,

    There is a huge flaw in your theory here. You really think that people are granted admission to medical school based on merit(where they lie on the bell curve). I agree everyone that gets though med school is pretty bright(for the most part), but you have to realize that admission committees look at many things like race, gender, who your parents are(did there graduate from this school, is they a building on campus with there name on it, did you walk the dog as a child of someone on the committee, etc). Based on what you just said a white male has higher admission standard so they must be better docs? does not make a lot of sense.

    Also your freind at vandi is probably licensed as a physician thought the AOA meaning he took Step I, II, III and finished an aoa internship but is BC though AOA or ABS depending on where he did his Residency. I called the AOA specialty boards and you can NOT sit for the Anesthesia Boards unless 1.finished an AOA residency of which there are 7 currently(not 100% sure b/c changes from year to year) 2. finished residency before 1986.

    So ask your friend I am interested to here.

    Oh yeah and military I am not trying to attack you here, just articulate that your logic on being a qualified candidate based on where you attended medical school maybe alittle off. Because I dont really care I know I will get a good job when I am done because I am confident and good at what I do also pretty fun guy to work with. so I may not get a job in your group b/c I am a DO but I really dont care.
     
  42. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    As pointed out, looking at your degree only is uni-dimensional, and it is. And the things I'm saying is based only that uni-dimensional factor.

    If I have 2 equivalent CVs and 2 exactly same candidates, you go down to little items to make the difference.

    You 're all right about the other factors for making good physicians. My sister-in-law is a DO, and I think she is a great nehprologists

    As for boards....read what I wrote above..

    I'll ask this guy from Vanderbilt about his situation.
     
  43. Heeed!

    Heeed! On target, On time!
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    The actual # of DO gas residencies is up to 12.

    Opportunities website

    MMD, if a DO takes COMLEX steps I-III and passes, I think you'd agree they're doctor. But if a DO takes the AOA BC exam for anesthesiology you think it's dishonest for them to say they're BC?...because the test is "more straightforward" = (translation) easier. (Not flaming here, just corn-fused :confused: )
     
  44. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    OK, here is the deal. I asked the guy who trained at Vanderbilt.

    He is a DO. He finished is residency at Vanderbilt (in Nashville Tennessee) in 1991.

    He told me, it was easier for him to take the AOA boards rather than go ABMS like the rest of his classmates.

    He said any allopathic residency can be AOA recognized....all you have to do is file some paperwork.

    This is straight from his mouth today.

    So, why would anyone who trains at a regular ABMS residency program, where everyone else takes the ABA boards, EVER take the AOA boards.....this will only cause problems for you when you're looking for a job...unless the job is populated by a number of AOA certified anesthesiologists.

    All of my partners while in the Navy...a lot of DOs...trained at Mayo, CHOP, and in the Navy ...refused to take the AOA boards.
     
  45. zippy2u

    zippy2u Senior Member
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    I knew a DO who couldn't pass the oral ABA exam and he took it twice so he got frustrated and got AOA certified on his first try. Nobody's 1st option is a DO med school. The smart premed student who can't get into a US allopathic med school should look into a med school that puts a MD behind his name and not a DO. Why? ---less hassles. All the books you learn about medicine in most fields are written by MDs and not DOs or CRNAs. I'll go back in my hole.... Regards,---Zippy
     
  46. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    My dad is a DO and I only applied to DO schools. WHoops guess it magically worked out for me here. I didn't have to bust my ass or anything.

    OK you have a story of some osteopath who has a hard time with writtens, didn't study enough, and snuck by through a loophole. Well, he had a loophole. I'm sure there are allo's out there who are in the same situation as this character but have no loophole. They just practice without certification. If I cared enough I'd do a search.

    This thread sucks by the way and I'm dumber for having said anything. And thats pretty damn dumb considering I'm a DO. :sleep:
     
  47. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    Vent is right. This thread somehow degenerated....probably my fault.

    But the bottom line answer to the OP....take the ABA boards if you are eligible and pass them.

    Taking the alternative boards (ABPS or AOA) may close some doors for you because of people who don't know you will only judge you based on uni-dimensional measures....no other way.

    Unfortunate, but that's the way it is.
     
  48. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    I have to agree. Take, and pass, the most well-recognized certification exam.
     
  49. Disse

    Disse Member
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    Now that is a post that says what it needs to say in a way that isn't insulting and that most everyone can agree upon :)

    ~From one of Zippy's "Nobody's"
     
  50. ETCO2

    ETCO2 New Member

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    Lame post. A real downer comming from someone I once respected.
     
  51. zippy2u

    zippy2u Senior Member
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    ETCo2, don't get down but hypothetically, if someone got accepted to an MD med school and a DO med school which one would you choose?; a no brainer in my book, the MD med school. Sorry if this causes you depression and you need not respect me for I'm not your Daddy... Warmest regards ---Zip
     
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