High GPA. Rejected?

[xshooshix]

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What is the point of training the student in prepharm with Public Speech/Composition?

In Prepharm, with Public Speech/Composition, you are taught how to understand English, and communicate effectively with others/public.

My point is... getting an A in Public Speech/Composition shows that you have
excelled in those Area. (communicating effectively, writing, etc..)

Meaning, you know how to communicate effectively(if not then you would've failed the class), and with 99 PCAT, shows you can comprehend and read write English very well.

...WOW.

First off, I completely disagree with this comment. azPharmD2B already explained why grades in those classes don't exactly reflect who you are as a person. If I had to count everything by percentages (in order of importance) the PCAT score is 25%, GPA 25%, INTERVIEW 30%, the rest are LORs, Personal Statements, ECs, Volunteer Work, etc.

Speaking from personal experience, I have received A+ grades in English and Oral Communication classes. I deserved those grades because I put 150% of my time and effort into those classes. However, that alone doesn't entirely reflect my personality. I'm a self-described extroverted introvert, I can communicate with anyone with the exception that I feel a little shy towards people who are more knowledgable than I am (doctors, for example) that i'm afraid to sound stupid. I am not letting that hinder me from attaining my goals, because I continue to improve my flaws everyday by speaking to with my research mentor and practicing my communication skills when I speak with patients at the pharmacy I volunteer at. It sounds to me that you are worried that your communication skills are going to hind you from acceptance, which is why you keep throwing questions left and right in this thread.

ETA: Two of the pharmacists I work with come from two different Asian countries. They may have a really thick accent, but they can communicate well enough that even SENIOR citizens can understand them. 🙂

 

[eelo]

How many people have you come across in life that can understand a language (any language, not necessarily English) but cannot communicate in that language. My daughter understands Spanish because she took that class for four years, but if she were required to have a conversation with someone she would hope that the other person spoke English. Several of my family's friends are Filipino and understand the language but can only speak a selection of words in Tagalog. As said by numerous people, understanding the language (demonstrated by receiving an A in Comp 1 or Public Speaking) is NOT NOT NOT the same as being fluent (able to communicate effectively) in that language.

Just a written example:

Wear the medication.
Where the medication?
Were the medication?
We're the medication.

Even broken or stilted language can have completely different meanings if not communicated effectively. I understand what I wanted to write, so I know what I wanted to say. But if you received a letter from your doctor saying "wear the medication," wouldn't you be a little puzzled? English is a difficult language to learn (as evidenced by those who have spoken English all their lives and still haven't mastered it), but so is the language of Medicine. Get over your feelings of being jilted because you may be judged due to having an accent. The fact of the matter is everyone judges you for how well they can understand you, even if they are not adcom's for a school. It's not about the accent, it's about the communication.

 

[No1 Pusher]

I've never heard of anyone who studied & received an A+ in Composition/Public Speech (non online classes) who couldn't be understood when speaking English, or who couldn't communicate effectively.

Have you?

Maybe this is why I think that if one excelled in those areas it automatically means that they can speak/understand the language with no difficulties.

 

[busyizzy]

I've never heard of anyone who studied & received an A+ in Composition/Public Speech (non online classes) who couldn't be understood when speaking English, or who couldn't communicate effectively.

Have you?

Maybe this is why I think that if one excelled in those areas it automatically means that they can speak/understand the language with no difficulties.

That's assuming they did get an A in speech .... let's not forget, a high GPA does not mean you got straight As. If you got mostly As, it allows for a few Bs, or even a C or two, as long as you have the As to balance it out.

And some classes might not have the same standard as other classes. Perhaps in someone's speech class, all they were required to do was to write speeches. Then they can always write their speech, get it checked over by friends, and make sure it's understandable. That's not the same as on-the-spot communication, and while as a pharmacist, you can rehearse some of what to say to your patients, there will most definitely be questions, and where would you be if you could not answer them clearly?

Not to mention, writing classes do not prove that you can communicate properly in English. It could just mean you have good friends who edit your papers all the time. I know someone who can't string 2 words properly in English - her papers are so godawful to understand, but her boyfriend edits them over and over again, until they sound really good. Shrug. Same thing with personal statements.

I think everyone is stressing the language thing waaaaay too much. Honestly. Clearly GPA is only one part of your application - just because it's high doesn't mean you're guaranteed entry. Just like your GPA, your communication skills are also another part of your application. They're usually determined by your personal statement, any essays, the interview, all that jazz. Again, you could exceed in this, but have a pitiful low GPA or bad LOR, and not get in. That's the whole point, people!! The whole picture!! Your application as a WHOLE. Not ONE part ever guarantees you admission into a school. GPA, LOR, interview, personal statement, everything counts ... just cuz you excel at one thing, if you have low stats in the other areas, you're probably gonna get rejected. ie. You could have a high GPA, but if your interview sucks, then you'll probably get rejected.

I don't see what's the point of beating this bush anymore. =.= What's so hard to understand about a pharmacist needing good communication skills? In the working world today, EVERYONE needs good communication skills if your job involves any sort of interaction with people. That's the bottom line. And if someone has equal stats as you but has better communication skills than you, then that person will probably be hired over you. Cruel, but the truth. That's the way the world works. You don't complain about people having higher GPAs that get admitted or hired, so how is communication skill any different?

 

[FlaPharmChik]

at some schools (like UF) speech isn't even factored in the math/science GPA for admission

 

[GRslp]

There is a difference between understanding language and expressing language. These are two completely different things. Trust me. (There is a reason the last three letters in my "handle" are SLP). Just because you understand what is said, doesn't mean you can effectively express yourself either orally or through written language.

Expressive and receptive language skills are two different things. Good communication skills include both components.

 

[confettiflyer]

^^i agree, this is one of the most basic lessons of communications (ahem, a pharmacy prerequisite).


Getting an A in comm. doesn't exactly involve a whole lot of talking or effort. In the end, it's about reading a book, taking a few tests, and writing a few papers. I personally know many horrible public speakers getting A's in these classes.

This reminds me the Chinese pilots in NY who could not communicate with the Tower, putting many lives at risk. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7mc8gIyrE

IMO, anyone can pass a public speaking course if they tried hard enough. Just because someone gets an A in it doesn't mean they're the next ML King or Billy Graham, just as if someone got a C in it doesn't mean that they're doomed.

 

[ForcedEntry]

Who got an "A" in ceramics?

Of those, how many of you can make more than a plate, small bowl, or ashtray?

"Your honor, the prosecution rests."

 

[RNtoPharmD]

I think the most reliable demonstration of good communication skill, besides interview, is the essay portion on PCAT. If he/she can write understable and grammartically correct essays in limited time (30 minuite) Yike!, she/he should be able to do the same in oral communication. Unlike essays from ENG 101/102 or prepared speech in Public speaking class, I can't have someone proofread it and I don't have much time proofreading and correcting grammar.


If the applicants' score from reading section is over 90 percentile and their PCAT essay score is above 3 or 4. I don't see why they need interview or on-site essay to prove their good communication unless they want to prove other things such as motivation to pharmacy, or professional demeanor.. etc.

 

[binghamkid]

I think the most reliable demonstration of good communication skill, besides interview, is the essay portion on PCAT. If he/she can write understable and grammartically correct essays in limited time (30 minuite) Yike!, she/he should be able to do the same in oral communication. Unlike essays from ENG 101/102 or prepared speech in Public speaking class, I can't have someone proofread it and I don't have much time proofreading and correcting grammar.


If the applicants' score from reading section is over 90 percentile and their PCAT essay score is above 3 or 4. I don't see why they need interview or on-site essay to prove their good communication unless they want to prove other things such as motivation to pharmacy, or professional demeanor.. etc.

The interview serves as a benchmark to measure your ability to interact with other individuals. The score from your PCAT essay demonstrates your written expository ability, while taking a speech course teaches you how to speak in a unilateral eloquent oratorical fashion. None of these classes/exams, however, measures your ability to obtain information from others, gauge the response needed, and then respond in a manner which translates incomprehensible information into something a layperson can understand. No one would argue that a scientist has no mastery over the English language; they write very clearly in their research articles and you would be hard pressed to find errors in their published writings. Likewise, many of them can present their findings in oral presentations. These are the skills which everyone has if you polish them well enough. What sets you apart from a scientist, however, is the need for you to be able to interact with others. As you learned in your speech/communications class, a conversation is different from a speech. The real question is, can you hold a conversation in English, not whether you can speak it. And if you can, how well can you converse in English? Are you understood in general terms because you've kind of hit the topic all over the place, or are you understood precisely because your mastery of the language allows you to communicate exactly what you are trying to say? My cousins from Taiwan know how to speak English too, but they would be hardpressed to hold a regular-paced conversation with me. However, they've gotten A's on their English speech and writing courses. They measure different types of communication; you can't say that mastery of the coursework is true mastery of the language.

 

[eelo]

If the applicants' score from reading section is over 90 percentile and their PCAT essay score is above 3 or 4. I don't see why they need interview or on-site essay to prove their good communication unless they want to prove other things such as motivation to pharmacy, or professional demeanor.. etc.

Well, if you consider that schools have literally hundreds of applicants. There will be a few whose apps are so darn outstanding in every possible way, they're going to get accepted no matter what. On the other end, there will be a few who truly had no business applying, who don't qualify, and whose applications are so incredibly poor and non-competitive, they'll be wiped off the slate. The schools need something else to separate the remaining applicants, who will make up the vast majority of the applicant pool. The on-the-spot writing assignment is a great definitive test, and is likely used to aid in rankings of prospective applicants. Most graduate or professional school applicants are the cream of the academic crop anyhow, so there has to be something to help choose one applicant over the others.

 

[busyizzy]

Well, if you consider that schools have literally hundreds of applicants. There will be a few whose apps are so darn outstanding in every possible way, they're going to get accepted no matter what. On the other end, there will be a few who truly had no business applying, who don't qualify, and whose applications are so incredibly poor and non-competitive, they'll be wiped off the slate. The schools need something else to separate the remaining applicants, who will make up the vast majority of the applicant pool. The on-the-spot writing assignment is a great definitive test, and is likely used to aid in rankings of prospective applicants. Most graduate or professional school applicants are the cream of the academic crop anyhow, so there has to be something to help choose one applicant over the others.

Not to mention, just because someone is great "on paper" doesn't mean they're gonna be a great pharm student. The pharmacy schools want people who are genuine and sincere, and the interview is a great way for a student to convey their motivation and passion for pharmacy; at the same time, it's also a way for the schools to weed out students they don't want - they might look great on paper (great PCAT scores and great GPA) but if they're self-absorbed dinguses, they will probably not turn out to be the greatest pharmacist, yanno? Grades and test scores cannot reveal everything about a person; in fact they only give a very two-dimensional view of a person. The interview is added personality. You can show they you're more than just a bunch of letter grades and numbers. The interview is also a way for the school to ensure you will be a "good fit" with their school. Etc etc ....